[The_Antibubba]

I'm not a muzzleloader, but I'm going to start handloading soon. I was wondering how the modern black powders, like Pyrodex, differ from "old-fashioned" gunpowder.

Thanks

[Mark whiz]

First off - the substitute powders are "flammables" not explosves.

Depending on which powder you use, they can be more powerful, cleaner burning, both, or neither.

Here's my experience with the different substitutes:

1) Goex ClearShot - about 10 to 20% weaker than Goex Black powder and just as dirty - not worth the price IMHO. It also is advertised to be less corrosive than black - I can't verify this.

2) ClearShot (American Pioneer Powder) - I understand this powder to be sugar-based somehow. It is maybe 5% weaker than Proydex or Black powder, but does fire very clean. It is the cleanest of the substitutes. It also is VERY susceptable to moisture contamination - ambient humidity can be a killer to it. This IS less corrosive - I can verify as I used it extensively for awhile.

3) Pyrodex - compatible to black powder in strength. It is slightly less smokey than black and not quite as dirty. Pyrodex is not as corrosive as Black, but can still cause problems if you let it go too long.

4) Triple Seven - is 10 to 15% more powerful than Pyrodex or black, cleaner than every other powder except CleanShot, and significantly less smokey (and doesn't smell like Buffalo Farts when you shoot it either :what: ). It is also supposed to be much less corrosive - while I haven't tested that part of it, its ease of cleaning WOULD support the claim, at least somewhat.

[The_Antibubba]

So, if they're not explosives, but propellants, how do they differ from smokeless powder?

[Mark whiz]

So, if they're not explosives, but propellants, how do they differ from smokeless powder?

Actually not by a whole lot!!

They just are not as powerful as standard smokeless powders. They were designed to emulate Black Powder so they could be used in black powder firearms - so their ignition rates, burn speeds, and burn pressures had to be mechanically manipulated to black powder standards..................... while research into smokeless powders is based usually on Improving on known powders.

I have heard (and I can't verify this) that the Hodgdon Triple Seven actually got it's name from the fact that it was Hodgdon's 777th try at the formula they wanted to find. If so, that shows how hard it is to duplicate & still improve a known quantity.

[Poodleshooter]

Personally, in my T/C, I've chronographed Pyrodex at much higher speeds than an equal volume of Goex BP with both round ball and conicals.
Another big difference from BP is the number of shots you can make before the bore fouling becomes impossible to load over. With my T/C, using patched roundball or conicals,crisco as lube, and Goex BP, I can get about 4 shots before I have to wipe the bore with a wet patch (you literally can't load another ball down the bore at that point). With Pyrodex in the same rifle, I can shoot all day without having to wipe the bore. My Lyman flinter only shoots BP and round ball, so I can't compare it's performance.

[smokemaker]

777 is the 777th try Hodgden made at a new substitiute. It's sucrose (that's sugar) based, and the claims about being 15% hotter per volume charge and much less corrosive in your bore are both true. I'm totally on the bandwagon for this stuff, because it is a very good powder, in both modern muzzleloaders, caplock guns, and even in cartridge cased BP numbers. As for it's performance in flinters, I don't know, as I don't shoot 'em.

[redneck]

Can someone explain how it is that BP is considered an explosive and modern/smokeless powders are classified as solid propellants?

BP generates much lower pressure than smokeless powder, which would lead me to assume it has a slower expansion/burn rate. I've even read that there is a theoretical ceiling to the velocities you can acheive using black powder regardless of barrel length and type of projectile (I suppose you can say that about any powder/propellant, but it is much lower for BP than smokeless I guess)

The only difference I can come up with on my own to explain the different classifications is maybe the ease of ignition. Does BP ignite easier? Seems it might since I can shoot 90 grain loads using #11 caps, and large loads of smokeless like shotgun/rifle shells require 409's or large rifle primers. :confused:

[Poodleshooter]

Pour out a pile of IMR 4064 and a small pile of FFg Goex. Light them and stand back. The 4064 will fizzle,spark and then burn slowly till it's gone. It probably won't even burn completely. Now light the Goex. FOOMP! A nice little mushroom cloud and the BP is quickly consumed. Smokeless only burns quickly (and faster than BP) when it is compressed fairly tightly with limited exposure. It takes a hot flame to ignite it. BP doesn't appear to change burn rates with compression changes. So it goes off in a pile like it would in your barrel. BP does ignite MUCH easier than any substitutes,which is why flintlocks are only supposed to use BP, or at least a 5-10gr kicker charge of real BP behind the Pyrodex or substitute. Pyrodex pellets use a tiny charge of real BP in the base of the pellet to aid in ignition. The rise of BP substitutes has been attended by a rise in popularity of musket caps and hotter 209 primers for a very good reason.

[redneck]

Thanks :)

[skip]

A fellow down by where I hunt won a can of black powder at a (modern) shoot, and put it out in his garage. He didn't shoot BP, but kept it just in case.

A few years later he was cleaning out his garage and found that can, and realized that he probably wasn't ever going to shoot it. He decided to get rid of it, and have some fun in the process. Remembering them old cowboy movies, he poured out a pile on the ground, and saved just enough to make a trail about 6 ft to a tree. His plan was to light the trail, and just before it got to the pile, hide behind the tree.

That's where the "explosive" part kicks in. As soon as he touched a match to the trail, the whole one-pound pile exploded immediately. Knocked him on his butt, burnt off all his exposed hair, and burnt all his exposed skin. He couldn't hear for 3 days.

He oughta sue Hollywood.

[Third_Rail]

Uh.... blackpowder doesn't explode in the common sense of the word... It burns quickly, but not explosives quickly.

I'm going to have to say that he was startled and fell over, but not that he was knocked over.

I've made blackpowder and experimented with it enough times to know its properties very well...

Even corned very small, blackpowder in a trail will not burn that quickly... the fastest I've ever gotten it to burn is (unconfined) 2ft/sec.

[Poodleshooter]

BP has been termed as a "low explosive". It propagates much slower than say a binary explosive like tannerite and isn't nearly as efficient in terms of volume of solid to volume of gas produced or the speed of the blast wave, but to those of us more familiar with charcoal combustion than C-4 combustion, it's still pretty fast and powerful. Not to mention hard on eyebrows if your not careful :)