416 Rigby vs 458 win mag?


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chetrogers
September 20, 2004, 09:19 PM
I'm once again trying to convince myself i need a big bore rifle.I was pretty sure on the 45-70 for a while but now I'm thinking about the 416 rigby and the 458 win mag.I don't have the opportunity to shoot first so I'm trying to find as much info on them as possible.I know the 416 cartridges are allot more expensive but I'm not looking for a weekend shooter just something i would take out every now and then.What got me thinking awhile back about big bores was i wanted/still want something that could take down a big animal if needed.Or zombie Dinosaurs :)

Thanks for any info on felt recoil or whatever anyone can think of to help me decide.

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tulsamal
September 20, 2004, 09:36 PM
Just based on what I've read, I would much rather own a .416 Rigby than a .458 Winchester. I've been eyeballing those CZ bolt actions for a couple years now.

Gregg

chetrogers
September 21, 2004, 01:14 AM
The CZ is most likely what would get.I have been trying to find as much info on the net comparing them but not so lucky so far.

schromf
September 21, 2004, 01:38 AM
There is a lot of information on the CZ rifles on accurate reloading forum. Do a search under big bore rifles. Most common complaint is cracking the stocks on the CZ, some in as few as ten rounds especially in the 416 Rigby. If you get one put in the crossbolts, I would do it before I fired it even.

All the rest it has good reviews.

I got to say after homework, listening to Dane, and some of the other big bore fans, the 404 Jeffrey is real intersting.

What I need it for is another matter.

chetrogers
September 21, 2004, 01:27 PM
Yikes i dont know if i want to purchase a rifle that i know is going to possibly break without me having to modify it..But its really my only option for the amount i want to spend.Thanks for the info and thanks for anymore to come guys.

Slingster
September 21, 2004, 05:38 PM
Since you were originally thinking about a .45-70, you could get the .458 WM and download it to hot .45-70 levels, e.g., 350s at 2100 fps or thereabouts, for getting started, and then as you get comfortable with it work your way up to full power loads (or not, as you prefer). Just a thought.

browningguy
September 21, 2004, 05:45 PM
I can highly recommend the 458. I got one built on a Charles Daly Mauser action with a Douglas barrel and a Boyds JRS laminate stock last year and it's fun to shoot. I'm working up some lighter loads with 400 gr. bullets next month for pig hunting.

Preacherman
September 21, 2004, 07:29 PM
I highly recommend the .416 Rigby - not, repeat, NOT, the Remington .416! - as a general-purpose big-bore African caliber. It's far more effective, IMHO, than the .458 Winchester, which has notorious penetration problems. If you want the bigger caliber, I'd go for the .458 Lott - but it's all yours. I'll stick with the .416, which I trust absolutely to bring down everything in Africa.

schromf
September 21, 2004, 08:25 PM
Preacherman,

Now thats just harsh. The 416 Rem is a good cartridge. Modern, effiecient, ballistic twin of the Rigby, doesn't need the extra large actions. If this was 80 years ago and I was worried about powder types, hot weather and pressures, I could make a serious case for the Rigby over the 416 Rem.

I am not bashing the Rigby its a great round, but if your not going to Africa and plan on using it in North America, the 416 Rem with a 350 gr spitzer bullet is a good heavy elk cartridge. And it can still be used in Africa with the 400 gr slugs.

I still like the 404 Jeffreys though, I think its called: A Buff Duster

Mannlicher
September 21, 2004, 09:18 PM
I have an older Winchester Model 70 in .458 Bought it on a whim long ago. I still play with it, but boy it kicks. I take it hog hunting sometimes, and it is pretty effective.
Up at my favorite Gun Shop, they have a Ruger Model 1 Tropical in .416 Remington. Good price on it too. I may yet buy it. Golly its pretty.

Tony Williams
September 22, 2004, 04:50 AM
Now thats just harsh. The 416 Rem is a good cartridge. Modern, effiecient, ballistic twin of the Rigby, doesn't need the extra large actions. If this was 80 years ago and I was worried about powder types, hot weather and pressures, I could make a serious case for the Rigby over the 416 Rem.

Somewhere on the web there's a big-game hunters site, put up by an experienced African guide, which evaluates rifles and ammo. IIRC the .416 Rem is absolutely slammed as a highly dangerous cartridge, as is the .458 Win. The reason is the same in both cases, to get the performance the propellant is highly compressed. Over time, it tends to push the bullets out, causing an erratic loss of performance. The much bigger .416 Rigby case doesn't suffer from such problems.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Preacherman
September 22, 2004, 10:16 AM
Tony, you win the coconut! That is precisely the problem with the .416 Remington - that, and the fact that in extremely hot conditions, as are frequently encountered in Africa, the pressure can build up to overproof conditions very, very quickly. I've seen two .416 Remington rifles that were blown apart by standard hunting loads, which I assume were either over-compressed due to bullet setback and/or overheated by being in the breech of a rifle exposed to African sun for several hours. Not something I want happening anywhere near my favorite face, thank you very much... :uhoh:

schromf
September 22, 2004, 12:57 PM
Ok guys I am from Missouri and going to call this one.

I will concede that when Remington released the 416 Rem they had issues with pressure. I think they were using a ball powder similiar to W-760 and it was an issue. But this is a case that has over 95 gr capacity, and with canister powders loads are 76-78 grs with a 400 gr bullet. Remington long ago corrected these problems, and this is really old news.

I spend a fair amount of time over at Accurate Reloading. If there is a site that has more PH's on it I sure haven't found it. Do a search there are no posts to support this. And there are a lot of PH's and African hunters that post there, and they would be talking.

If I am wrong on these I will concede the point, but I really need more than I saw it somewhere on the wild-wild world of the web.

I will also concede that most PH's aren't using it. But the choices of these guys are more along the lines of 404 Jeff, 425 Westly Richards, 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, 470 Nitro Express. It is an interesting study if you really look at what some of these guys are using, they use some very old and valuable rifles a lot of times and have had them for years. But pay attention to what they are buying on new guns. And I will add that if I was going to buy a gun specifically for an African hunt the 416 Rem would not be my first choice, I would pick from the above list. But for most American hunters that might once go to Africa, and will want to use the rifle on something other than paper punching the 416 Rem isn't a bad choice.

I will add my experience is not first hand, I need to rely on guys that are doing it and reading. I tried unsuccesfully to convince my wife to a Zambia hunt next year, and its been file 86ed, but I was planning on either a 404 Jeffrey, a 416 Rigby, or a 45 cal, to supplement my 375H&H.

Tony Williams
September 26, 2004, 10:08 AM
OK, I've found the site - there's a lot of great stuff to browse through here if you're interested in African hunting: http://209.221.146.166/archives.htm

As well as the info on cartridges, the authors have some pretty critical things to say about most of the rifles - which might in some cases surprise you!

Incidentally, given that there is a wide choice of guns and ammo for such uses, if it were my skin on the line I wouldn't choose any calibre or rifle about which there was any doubt whatsoever.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

unspellable
September 26, 2004, 01:34 PM
It isn't blowing up the rifle you need to worry about, it's difficult extraction.

All the old big game cartridges for doubles had big cases and low pressure, not because the action is weak as is sometimes mistakenly assumed, but because the drop barrel action does not have as much mechanical advantage in extraction as the bolt action.

The bolt action has an advantage in extraction, but it has a weakness in that there's no second shot if it sticks.

For my money, any respectable big game cartridge has a big case and low pressures.

rbernie
September 26, 2004, 01:46 PM
I found the comments regarding velocity to be interesting. A lot of traditional (read 'old') North American big game cartridges don't generally exceed 2000fps on their best day, while 2250fps was cited by the author as being his lower limit to get the hydrostatic shock needed to drop dangerous-but-not-armored-plated game (cats and such).

Fish Springs
September 26, 2004, 02:23 PM
Back to the original question--buying a .458 or a .416 Whatever.

Depends on what you want to do with it. If you just want to have a big bore, thump an elk, maybe a Nagli and do some big bore shooting--the .458 components and ammo will be more avaialble and less expensive than any .416 componets or ammo.

Personally, the 458 Lott seem interesting--if I did not already have an excelent .458 Win Mag. Ruger Safari.

If you want to have a good medium bore, go to Africa, shoot a couple of animals and put the run in the rack get a 416 Rigby as the additional cost of ammo is not significant and you might shoot a 100 rounds from sight in to end of hunt.

I've not been to Africa but I have shot and reloaded a .458 Win for 20 years and have not experienced any of the tales of woe repeated in gun magazines or on the web.

Factory WW white box 500 grain MC chrno's 2100 fps from my gun and its favorite hand load moves a 400 grain Barnes at 2450--just no need for a .416 in my world. With a case full of AA 2200 the 500 grain bullet will break 2200 FPS--but is not a load that I care to shoot alot.

So, if you get a good price on a .458 don't pass on it due to poor press reviews.

unspellable
September 26, 2004, 04:21 PM
I won't call it the "458 Winchester Magnum" because "magnum" means an oversized case for the type and the 458 Winchester has an undersized case for the type.

That said, many of the 458 Winchester's troubles of the past are just that, of the past. We have better powders and bullets available today.

The one remaining problem is that it just cannot churn up true big game ballistics without running rather high pressure for a big game cartridge.

On the other hand, it may be about the best of the big bores for loading down. It will do a fine job at anything between a factory 45-70 load and a factory 458 Winchester load. This makes it more versatile than some of the other big bores. And it's one of the less expensive ones to feed.

The 416 may outdo it for a flat trajectory on long range shots at buck.

BigG
September 28, 2004, 12:23 PM
I recommend the 458, myself. I've had two; should have kept the first, a Mod 70 African, but I thought it was out of my system. As others have noted, I think the problems of the 458 are a thing of the past. The CZ550 you are interested in can be reamed out to 458 Lott, i.e., ~3/8" longer than 458 Win. The magazine is already long enough so I believe no other mods are necessary.

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