SIG p230/232/Walther PP....etc.


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cslinger
September 24, 2004, 02:17 PM
Why no slide release. I realize we are talking about firearms whose, basic design is pretty old but there are much older semi autos with slide release buttons.

So were they designed this way for some reason or is it just a manufacturing shortcut/cost cutting measure.

Don't know why I just thought of that, daydreaming at work I guess.

Chris

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Erich
September 24, 2004, 03:08 PM
I think it's sort of the nature of the pocket pistol. No one thinks of these guns as IPSC guns, so quick reloads really aren't considered necessary.

That said, the Maks have always had slide releases (certainly an improvement on the 1920s Walther design) as do the Bersas nowadays. So, things change.

But, as is demonstrated by the butt-heel magazine release on the modern SIG-Sauer P232, there are some things that firearms designers (and, presumably, firearms users) don't think are necessary on pocket pistols.

(Not an especially well thought-out answer, but certainly in the spirit of your "daydreaming at work" question. :) Have a great weekend! :D )

shoobe01
September 24, 2004, 03:43 PM
The slide release on these is the same as all other guns. My hand.

Just slingshot the slide. Pulling back a little as long as there is ammo in there will cause it to run forward. Practice not following the slide, hence the slingshot term.

This is just good principle. Its how you manipulate the slide for all other events, so keep it simple.

(BTW, AR-18s, FNC-90s, some AKs and lots of other guns also have no slide release lever. You do the same thing to release it from lock.)

cslinger
September 24, 2004, 03:45 PM
I was not thinking in terms of combat but more in terms of locking the slide back as a courtesy to show unloaded status etc. I know I can just use an empty mag and or release the mag to drop the slide and I realize how this works in combat.

I was just wondering why it's not there.

Chris

Erich
September 24, 2004, 04:36 PM
Once Glocks came out, I started slingshotting everything, too. :)

Morgan
September 24, 2004, 06:00 PM
No external slide lock/release can be a BIG issue when the little beast double feeds.

How are you going to lock the slide back to rip out the magazine (don't get me started on the heel mag release)?

I had just this problem with a P230, and you needed three hands to clear the damn jam.

AK103K
September 24, 2004, 08:15 PM
You can lock the slide open on these types of guns by using your little finger to lift the slide stop as you push the slide rearward. Thats how I do it with my SIG's and used to do it with my Walther's. Holding the pistol in your right hand by the grip, grab the slide at the rear with your thumb and index finger, thumb towards you and push the slide rearward. When it comes to a stop, slip your little finger of the same hand into the port and lift the stop up. With a little practice it takes no effort at all. It can also be done with a double feed by slipping the tip of the little finger in and lifting the stop with your fingernail. I dont know how well it will work under stress, or if it will work every time, depending on the jam, but I have created the jam using snap caps and was able to get the slide to lock back with little trouble. I guess if you have fat pinkies, it may not work to well for you either. :)
The heel release really isnt all that bad either and with practice and technique, you can get the mag to fall free during a reload on most of the guns that have one. Push button releases are not always a guarantee that the mag will drop free either. My CZ 70 has a clip under the hammer spring in the mag well that stops the mag from falling clear. If you remove it, the mag will fall clear like a 1911.

GSB
September 24, 2004, 09:16 PM
don't get me started on the heel mag release

Nothing wrong with it, once you spend a little time getting knack with it. You won't be doing a tac reload with it, but once you get the hang of it, you can do a mag change just about as fast as you can with a conventional mag release with no-drop mags. Really.

gbelleh
September 24, 2004, 11:45 PM
Sticking your fingers into the ejection port works, but is kind of scary. I like HK's solution to this problem in their P7 pistols. No bulky slide release, but locking the slide back can be done safely and easily.

Nick96
September 25, 2004, 12:52 AM
Had a Walther PP at one time - very good gun. Had a PPK/S that was a piece of junk (promptly got rid of it). I've heard the Sig 230's & 232's are are very good guns (like the Wather PP) - though I've never actually owned one.

These are very small guns. A slide release was never a consideration or concern. I never intended to do a "combat re-load" with them anyway - so having a slide release lever was a moot point. Actually I considered a slide release on such a gun as just something to add bulk and get in the way - which is one of the reasons I thinK the Sig's are superior to the Beretta's, Colt's, Bersa's, etc.

Badger Arms
September 25, 2004, 01:56 PM
Why no slide release? Why? A pocket pistol is a defensive weapon, not a tactical Ninja weapon. It saves your life; it's a tool. What do you need the slide release for? Consier the manual of arms for a magazine change. You don't HAVE to fumble for a slide release to be quick. In fact, it's not as fast or positive if you use the slide release. That explains why Glock considers such a device only an afterthought.

CAS700850
September 28, 2004, 04:13 PM
Let's be practical in our observations, if you please. The Sig 230/232 and similar handguns are designed for concealed carry. Period. As those of us who conceal larger guns can attast, hammers, levers, etc, can make concealment uncomfortable, and even damaging to the conclealing garment.

Look at the Sig 232. Smooth sides. NO buttons or levers. The Hammer is barely noticible at teh back of the slide. The heel-clip release is a very small extension, just a hair longer than the grip. It is designed for comfortable, smooth, concealed carry.

What is it not designed for? Speed reloads, failure to feed drills, etc.

Appreciate it for what it is, and recognize it for what it is not. Then, go get a Glock or a Sig 239. :D

AK103K
September 28, 2004, 04:45 PM
Let's be practical in our observations, if you please.....
I agree. Most of the time when I have my P230 along, its my "fastest" reload, ie, a second gun. But when you carry it alone, you had better have a reload for it, know how to do it quickly, and be reasonably able to clear any malfunction, and as quickly as possible. It doesnt matter what kind of pistol it is or how many levers, knobs or switches it has, if its the only gun you carry, you had better know how to work it and be able to do what it takes to keep it working. That seems most practical to me. I wouldnt want to do the little finger trick in the middle of a gunfight, but I do know that there is a good chance it will work and I already know how to do it.

Then again, at home in my shop, with the mag out on an empty gun, I can still impress my buddies and lock the slide back just like magic. :)

Morgan
September 28, 2004, 05:51 PM
Let's be practical in our observations, if you please.
Certainly. My example of the 230 jammed, regularly (once a magazine), with a double feed. Most impractical.

It was sent to SIG, who replaced the recoil spring in the brand new gun and called it fixed. It was better, only jamming every third or fourth magazine. Mostly impractical.

Look at the Sig 232. Smooth sides. NO buttons or levers.
A very pretty gun, to be sure. Unfortunately, the Kahr is a superior pocket/deep concealment gun in every fashion save fashion. :)

CAS700850
September 29, 2004, 01:52 PM
Morgan

I can feel your pain. Literally. I have had two Walther PPK/S and a Sig 230, and I could never get any of these pistols 100% reliable. I ended up with my Smith 649, and never looked back. I've looked at the Kahr, and looked at it, and looked at it. Quite frankly, I almost bought one a while back, but decided to wait until the company proved it had staying power (no Bren Tens, thank you.) Maybe it's time I looked again...

AK103K
September 29, 2004, 02:58 PM
I've never had any trouble with my German Walther's or my SIG's. They have always been very reliable and I can never remember having a malfunction of any kind with them. The US assembled Walther's on the other hand were a major pain in the butt and were constantly a problem.

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