Locking up US citizens without a trial or lawyer...


PDA






reagansquad
September 26, 2004, 02:37 PM
What do you think of the US gov't locking up some suspected terrorists who are also US citizens without access to a lawyer or the courts for undetermined periods of time?

...I hope you realize that this is happening. :uhoh:

If you enjoyed reading about "Locking up US citizens without a trial or lawyer..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
lostone1413
September 26, 2004, 02:45 PM
I have mixed feelings. Say I got an idea since we are all infidels and the Muslims have sworn to convert us or kills us lets send them all back and bring are military home. Then we can secure are borders and the rest of the world do what they want. Oh I forgot the liberals are against secure borders check that off then

WT
September 26, 2004, 02:53 PM
Sounds good to me. Fort Dix has thousands of acres available for suspected terrorists.

Someday America might realize it is at war.

Linux&Gun Guy
September 26, 2004, 02:58 PM
^ I hope you are joking!

Sounds unconstitional to me. Everyone who orders that should be on trial for treason.

BryanP
September 26, 2004, 03:01 PM
Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there who ARE willing to give up essential liberties to purchase a little temporary safety.

Justin
September 26, 2004, 03:11 PM
Only a state run by cowards and criminals would lock up its citizens without due process.

If the government feels confident enough to throw someone into a prison cell, they shouldn't have a problem with giving that person a fair and public trial.

Tyranny cannot thrive in the light of public cross-examination.

niemand
September 26, 2004, 03:18 PM
"Temporary Safety" that is itself an illusion. Is great pretext for however "Union of Soviet Socialist States" to create. Or perhaps some would "Vierte Reich" prefer? Have You Your "Papers" in order?

"At War"? Against Whom? I am not "Nation of Terror" on Map finding. I question also; Why "Land of Free" seems to find itself in "Perpetual War" all-the-while "Civil Liberties" seem to evaporate? If "Soldiers fighting to keep You free", why then are all LESS "Free"? Wrong target One thinks, real enemy parasites called "Politicians". (Had Anyone ever thought During "Nuclear Terror" Days why only "Elite" Safe bunkers had? Of what worth is Politician?)

Perhaps insane "Middle East Policy" has some disaffected......Might "Remove Self with Apologies" as opposed to playing role of Clumsy Giant.

I hear of precious few "Bombs" in Switzerland exploding.....Mayhaps as they do not great fat noses in others business put?

0007
September 26, 2004, 03:22 PM
Or perhaps it's because Switzerland is where lots of the terrorist organizations do their banking???

niemand
September 26, 2004, 03:35 PM
Yes, for past Four Centuries "Switzerland" has "Kept from War" by this "Terrorist Banking" hosting? :rolleyes:

Perhaps this explains also all other countries not so afflicted! "They have peace not for 'Minding own business' but Terrorist-Accomodating!"

Ready now to "Kit-Up" and Finland invade? Also Iceland, also.......Why do I bother, just then relax and "Hakenkreuz Polish" You must Love idea of "New YankReich"......

White Horseradish
September 26, 2004, 03:40 PM
Yes, I know it's happening. It is bad, because as soon as you say that one citizen can be locked up without due process, that means any citizen can be so locked up. If you want to know how this works, look up "Soviet Union", "Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin" and "enemy of the people".

lostone, I think you're off base here. Send who back where? We're talking about US citizens, not foreign nationals.

WT, so, have you picked a nice spot in Fort Dix to settle? All it would take is your neighbor being annoyed at how you park your car, writing up an affidavit declaring you a terror suspect. Those guns of yours would confirm the suspicions and off you go.

Niemand, yes, there is a war on. At the very least, with Iraq. Leaving with apologies will not be very helpful at this point. There are plenty of people in the world that hate America. That hate is created and perpetuated by people in power for convenience and profit. I remember how people in USSR got all upset about US imperialism, but took the lack of toilet paper for granted. Switzerland is not big enough to be hated, plus, would you really want to piss off the guys that hold your retirement fund?

niemand
September 26, 2004, 03:57 PM
Liebe "Meerrettich" ("Horse Radish")

Spot-On in number of comments, yet "Size" had naught to equation, "Interventionist Policies" does.

Yes, Leaving, to "Founder's" "No foreign entanglements" view adhering, Apologising for Illegal War of Aggression against innocent people, Reperations paying, ALL military from World withdrawing. Oh yes, "Screw Israel", only trouble them, "Yanks as Violin play".

Should Anyone GOVERNMENT then with aggression respond (Not manufactured) deal with. Should any "INDIVIDUAL" seek redress of injustices against "Innocent" Yanks, Deal with on-site. (That is were it not "Official Policy" Stateside to victims disarm)


U.S. (As Government) long Years has "Intervened" where not wanted/needed. Would not hurt to "Keep Selves Home". (Were it not perhaps Hoi Polloi might some attention to Political mendacity then make)

lostone1413
September 26, 2004, 03:58 PM
The thing is you are the infidel. Like it or not you are their enemy. We through are history have stopped certain people from coming here and sent certain people back citizen or not if thought to be a threat. If you think they are good American Citizens and their loyalty is with this country instead of the Muslim Nations then were was the out cry after 9/11 or any other attacks made on Americans??? Every country I can think of that is having trouble with terrorist it is Muslim Terrorist. Maybe it will take what happened to the school kids in Russia to happen here to wake the American people up. Then again maybe that wouldn't even do the trick. All anyone has to do is look at what is going on in the world now and read some history. That should tell anyone if they are friend or foe.

niemand
September 26, 2004, 04:02 PM
You are saying Only "Moslims" terrorist acts commit? (Leaving out "Waco" Ruby-Ridge" U.S. Attacks on various points about World).

Is search engine; "Google", try this. No, It is NOT "Only Moslims". Is simplistic line "Fedgovfministryoftruthgoons" would have You believe.

Daemon688
September 26, 2004, 04:09 PM
From what I understand, those that were arrested were over in Afghanistan. They claim that they were only trying to get home and never fought.

I find that hard to believe. As far as I'm concerned the moment they joined the other side, it's treason and you are no longer a citizen.

But for those who are sitting in jail that were arrested in the US and are citizens and are still being held without charge, no lawyer, nothing then there is a major problem. Didn't the Supreme Court make a ruling recently saying the gov't can't do that?

spartacus2002
September 26, 2004, 04:23 PM
try changing our foreign policies in the middle east, and much of our troubles would vanish.

White Horseradish
September 26, 2004, 04:31 PM
niemand, it's a bit too late for leaving. Having said A, we must say B, C, and the rest of the alphabet. If the goal is to improve the subjective opinion of US in the eyes of the world, (this is what you're talking about, no?) destroying something and leaving without setting it right would be extremely counterproductive. Giving out monetary reparations woud be aking to leting a goat guard the cabbage patch. The money will never reach the intended recipients, it will disappear into pockets of corrupt officials.

Size matters as far as visibility. Pick a random schoolchild from somewhere in the third world and ask them about Switzerland. More than likely, they'll confuse it with Sweden. You know, another one of those little countries somewhere in that salad known as Europe. US is quite easy to point to on the map. It's not only highly visible because of size and location. US culture is rather pervasive due to the size of the economy. Everyone in the world has seen several American movies, but the Swiss film industry is rather less prominent. Also, I've never heard of a Switzerland-based fast-food chain.

Removing US fingers from a few pies around the world would be beneficial, but total isolationism is rather impractical. Politics and money are too closely tied for that.

Israel will always be tied to US, like it or not. That is simply a fact of life. There is a large Jewish population in US. They have friends and relatives in Israel, they vote and therefore influence the foreign policy in that regard. Also, being on good terms with Israel is to our benefit since they are becoming quite a force in scientific research. Oh, and were it not for them, we wouldn't have the Desert Eagle.



lostone, what part of the concept of US citizenship do you not understand? A citizen is a citizen is a citizen, regardless of where they are born. There are no degrees of citizenship. Citizens have rights. A right taken from one citizen is taken from all citizens. Yes, that means you. Not all people currently in custody are foreign-born. Ever heard of Jose Padilla? He's from Chicago. Where would you send him?

Pointing to things that have been done "throughout history" is a rather poor argument. History is full of injustices. I would point to Chinese, Irish and Jews as groups that were treated rather badly with regard to immigration into US. Are you saying that was OK?

JohnBT
September 26, 2004, 04:36 PM
"Locking up US citizens without a trial or lawyer..."

I thought this would be a discussion about public schools.

JT

BryanP
September 26, 2004, 04:48 PM
As far as I'm concerned the moment they joined the other side, it's treason and you are no longer a citizen.

Well, you see, we have this little thing in the US that we like to call the Bill of Rights. Things like freedom of speech and religion and rights to due process and such weren't laid down for the popular. The popular folk get them anyway. Those are in place for when somebody suddenly finds themselves to be unpopular and the cries of "Just killl'em all" or "Ah, who needs a trial, we know he's guilty!" start.

Although I do not always agree with him Standing Wolf recently made a comment that has stuck with me: "Somewhere beyond death's door, George III is laughing himself silly."

niemand
September 26, 2004, 05:35 PM
Herr Rettich!

(Take not offence please, is written in Humour)

Why pray does One a "Desert Eagle" need? Ghastly Arm, Poor of function, "Ergonomics", "Does nothing well". Thus "Israel" as well "IMI" may to Hades travel for all of Me.

Premise in writing seems as if One has desire for "U.S. FedGove" to retain. I do not.

Years gone, University, would question pose; "Should all seats of power disappear, as well all those whose Cheques "Theft by Proxy" are (Taxes) would then Sun fail? Planet cease Revolving? Commerce cease?

Have problem with "Parasites", as well those Who nothing but difficulty cause.

Also! Would Your "Schoolchild" analogy agree with.....had You "U.S. Schoolchild" written.....Your "Public Indoctination and Obedience to Authority Centres" in education horrid.

As to those with "Holy-War" idee fixe, I have of late My copy "Qur-An" Read.....To "Christian Bible" compared (Catholic or "King-James") far less by way of "Kill Your Neighbour".

Have amongst "Moslems" been, As well "Pushtu" Hillsmen of Afghanistan. Admirable Folk, sincere, by My perception less "Hypocrisy" than "Nominal Christions" having. (Was in Afghanistan when Soviets-Soviets there)(Is distinction from "U.S. Soviets").

2nd Amendment
September 26, 2004, 06:37 PM
try changing our foreign policies in the middle east, and much of our troubles would vanish.

Wouldn't make the slightest difference. Apologists for Japan say that we forced them to attack us by infringing their trade in Asia. Sound familar? A massive attack on our soil is our fault... It wasn't ture regarding Pearl and it isn't true regarding the WTC. Altering our actions and/or cowering at home wouldn't have saved us then and it won't save us now.

Meanwhile and elsewhere in this thread, Muslims are responsible for the majority of terrorist attacks. WTC 1 & 2, OKC is still generating interest by the fed in Muslim connections, etc. Not certain where the above passing mention of Waco or Ruby Ridge fits in, though. Were you implying they were the terrorists or the victims of government "terror"?

niemand
September 26, 2004, 07:00 PM
(Quote By "Second Amendment")


above passing mention of Waco or Ruby Ridge fits in, though. Were you implying they were the terrorists or the victims of government "terror"?


Quite; "State-Sponsered Terror", as but a few examples.

Disagree with You. No-One on planet to My information "Absent Cause" simply upon One Day awakened saying; "Devil-Take-It-All, I shall Home, Wife, Children, Career, Comforts abandon to Yankees kill".

Policies by Parasites ("Govofficials")/interventionist behaviour is cause. Start "Being Good Neighbours". This entails Keeping Schnout from Business of others. Might be efficacious, make "Good use" Lamp-Posts/Rope in abundance found, Cleaning-out "Washington D.C." good start.

Other Folk do well at this. "Minding own business".

Trade, Yes, but not Trade at Weapon-Point.

longrifleman
September 26, 2004, 07:06 PM
From what I understand, those that were arrested were over in Afghanistan. They claim that they were only trying to get home and never fought. I find that hard to believe. As far as I'm concerned the moment they joined the other side, it's treason and you are no longer a citizen.

Something about that has always troubled me. These guys were on the other side of the world. As far as I know they had nothing to do with planning the attacks on 9-11. We invaded the country they were in and attacked them. How is that treason? They weren't fighting to overthrow the US govt.

Last I heard at least one of them (can't rember which one ) had been charged with a WEAPONS charge for possession of an automatic. So US criminal jurisdiction covers the whole world now?

try changing our foreign policies in the middle east, and much of our troubles would vanish.

I would have to agree, although we have already made enough enemies that the improvement might be small for a while.

I don't understand how supporters of our policies in the middle east since WWII can not understand why supporting dictator after dictator and tyrant after tyrant and ocassionally bombing a few people on our own isn't going to create enemies for the US?

but total isolationism is rather impractical.

The standard strawman argument for continuing the current policies. There are more than two choices. Ole George Washington had it figured out: commercial relations with all but entangling alliances with none.

lostone1413
September 26, 2004, 07:15 PM
I understand what being a citizen means. I also understand what it means when a group of people have a faith that preaches to either convert me or kill me Guess what they are the enemy. If they are so loyal to America were is the uproar as to what happened in 9/11. We were founded based on a christian belief. It was a mistake to let them in the country to start with. What part of history don't you understand going back even before the Crusades?? I wonder when something happens in one of are schools like happened in Russia how many will change their mind as to what we should do.

niemand
September 26, 2004, 07:26 PM
"LongRifleMan";

I concur with You. Utterly correct. "Head On Straight". At My Table Welcome anytime.

niemand
September 26, 2004, 07:38 PM
"Lostone":

So odd mention of "Crusades". Europeans to Middle-East riding to "Non-Believers Kill". (As well, "Loot")

Believe Historically "We" did this sequence "Start". One may however "Finish". Again, withdraw. Apologise. Pay for errors. Put all "Back-to-Right" as much a may be.

Anything after, then onus on Attacker.

"Beslen"? Reprehensible. Yet why does No-One the amount of Children by Russians killed recount? Again, no "Vacuum" here, these acts retaliatory. i.e. In response.

How many Palestinian Children directly/indirectly with U.S. Munitions killed? What of Years "Sanctions" against Iraq?

Recall perhaps once "Cheney/Saddam" in business? Recall perhaps Kurds with "Chemical Weapons Killed, Weapons from States came? With "Blessings" of Government?

Great deal of Rubbish by "FedGov" in "Justification" spewed. This instance, U.S. is aggressors without cause.

Were it Chinese in States "Making Change of Regime" how then would You feel?

Marko Kloos
September 26, 2004, 07:47 PM
niemand,

check your usage of quotation marks. It's very annoying to read.

Also, if your syntax is German, I'll eat my Molon labe hat. Your personality seems a bit artificial. Wanna join the debate like an adult?

niemand
September 26, 2004, 08:08 PM
Meine Mutter sprechen Deutsches und isländischen. Fangen Sie an Zu essen!

I believe this is "Ad Hominum" called. Welcome to My "Ignore" list.

Marko Kloos
September 26, 2004, 08:27 PM
Switch your Internet translator, buddy...or use your native tongue, which is definitely not German.

Dein Deutsch ist viel zu lausig, um zu Hause gelernt zu sein. Deine Satzstellung ist verkehrt.

Chris Rhines
September 26, 2004, 08:31 PM
Say I got an idea since we are all infidels and the Muslims have sworn to convert us or kills us lets send them all back...We through are history have stopped certain people from coming here and sent certain people back citizen or not if thought to be a threat. Lemme get this straight, lostone. You are advocating that the government round up all Muslims in the US and deport them to...somewhere. That about the size of it?

If so, well, I think that you may have failed to consider the logistics of your proposal. Between the costs of tracking all the Muslims down, detention costs, transportation... you're talking about a lot of money. Wouldn't it be more economical to skip deportation and proceed straight to summary executions? After all, they are the enemy, right? Jeez, you could start up a dozen or so extermination camps and have a 'final solution' to the 'Muslim question' within a few years, tops!

The thing is you are the infidel. Like it or not you are their enemy. The International Muslim Conspiricy is going to be some kinda pissed at my hairdresser, Sonja. She's an Iranian-born Muslim. Just yesterday she had a real sharp pair of scissors not an inch from my head, but she failed to plunge them into my jugular. I hope that the IMC doesn't punish her too badly for failing to kill one of the enemy - she does a hell of a haircut...

Guess what they are the enemy. I'm getting a pretty good idea of who my enemy is...

- Chris

hillbilly
September 26, 2004, 08:37 PM
Everyone who has posted to this thread would do well to study a lot more history.

None other than Abraham Lincoln imprisoned US citizens without filing charges and not allowing them to see lawyers.

None other than Abraham Lincoln shut down newspapers who were not supporting the US war effort, thus effectively gutting the First Amendment in time of a national crisis called "The Civil War."

If you think what's going on today during the "War on Terror" is extreme, you should do some historical reading about what it really looks like when the government infringes rights on a broad scale.

hillbilly

lostone1413
September 26, 2004, 08:38 PM
I would agree in part really Stalin killed more of his own people then Hitler killed in the camps. To me someone who pledges to convert me or kill me is the enemy It makes no difference if in this country or not. I'm sure most would agree a hundred years ago or more if a group was saying they would convert us or kill us their is no question we would send them back to the mid east. As far as Iraq i'd do like Goldwater said he would do in VietNam. Bomb them back to the stoneage. After that I would man are borders with the military.

lostone1413
September 26, 2004, 08:42 PM
Your right hillbilly. Lincon also sent 20K blacks back. How many know in this country at one time you had to own property to vote?

Med 10
September 26, 2004, 08:43 PM
I cant help it! Whenever I read niemands postings I cant help but hear Yoda!

Hmmm, on ignore list you will be, Hmmm, strong in you is the dark side.


Hillarious!

lostone1413
September 26, 2004, 08:49 PM
See your from Maryland close to NY thinking. What you bet before the plane hit the twin towers 90% in their were liberal then what you bet before they fell 90% were ultraconservative? Oh yes I to know who the enemy is

Marko Kloos
September 26, 2004, 08:54 PM
The sophomoric chest-thumping by Internet warriors in this thread is making me physically ill.

Hey, hotshot: if you want to see Muslims dead, go join the Marines and go to Iraq. Do not, I repeat, do not, abuse the hospitality of the guy who runs the very hardware on which this board runs by calling to deport or kill him just because he is a Muslim. You just made clear you consider him your enemy, so maybe you shouldn't be hanging out here on his dime, huh?

This thread is closed.

:fire:

If you enjoyed reading about "Locking up US citizens without a trial or lawyer..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!