[Wildalaska]

Just hypothetically

Lets say you are a firearms dealer.

Lets say you are made aware of an investigation into LAWFULLY obtained firearms being SMUGGLED out of the US and into the hands of persons who at a very minumum are skells and at a maximum are potentially harmful to the US.

Lets say that you are asked to report persons who purchase such weapons if those persons fit merely the profile of thesmugglers, even though they may be entirely lawabiding and have not yet commited a crime.

What do you do?

WildinquiringmindswanttoknowAlaska

[CZ-75]

skells

???




Short answer: Lawyer up.

[Wildalaska]

skells is ny cop speak for criminals

Add this to the equation..you the dealer are not accused of anywrongdoing as the guns are being aquired legally...you are not given the name of suspects, rather just a class of persons....

[BamBam]

I would probably have to evaluate each of these people individually before I subjected them to an alphabet agency.

[G-Raptor]

If their interactions with you are legal and proper, and you have no knowledge that the police are investigating those individuals specifically, then there is no reason to report it.

Reporting people on the basis of some nebulous profile, rather than specific behavior is a bad habit to get in to. Remember, the general profile for the DC sniper was "an angry white male driving a white van". A lot of guys, on their way home from work, ending up kissing the concrete in the presence of armed officers because of it.

[Blackhawk]

Not enough information to even guess, but I'd sure look into why I was being recruited....

[Wildalaska]

Hmm interesting responses so far...

Add this to the equation then...suppose a weapon you LAWFULLY SELL is used to fire up a few kids in some foreign country? And you could have reported the purchser as fitting the profile, thereby stopping it...

You guys got any circs whatsoever wherein you think its proper for a Firearms Dealer to provide, hmmmm, how about calling it intelligence infop to the Gov't...???

[Navy joe]

I'd hate to think that Wild is actually being asked to do this as a dealer. In fact I bet he is, sounds a lot like the "voluntary" suspicious transaction reporting the Fed has shoved down the throat of banks. Nevermind we voted against "Know your customer" the same was accomplished through Treasury internal policy and threats to the banks.

If I was a dealer and someone bought large quanities of guns I'd ask why. If they were a legit guy/gal they would probably invite me over to see their collection. No straight answer and I'd start asking around about the person and maybe refuse future sales until I found out. Then say something to the police. No way I'd be Mr. TIPS based on some B.S. profile that could be twisted to fit 75% of all gunowners.

[Wildalaska]

Just so ya know Joe this is hypothetical...

Here add this..forget about the profile that fits 75% of gunowners..how about specific ethnic groups? Or citizens born in certain countries?

Taking all the philosophy out..how far should one go to assist the governemtn in the war on terroism?

[Pendragon]

First, from my knowledge, buying "arms" in the US for shipment over seas is generally not cost effective depending on what they want.

Second, how do you know that they guns are not helping people fight their own war of independence? I guess our right to arms is unassailable, but Lordy Lordy if some ferners get some guns.

If it were me, I would fulfil my legal requirements as far as paperwork, etc and that is all. If I thought someone was shady enough to report, I would not do business with them.

We need to be pretty skeptical about the WOT. Odds say Middle Eastern young men will be the players - if your guys fall in, then maybe - but still, probably not.

[Tamara]

I have refused one or two sales in the past due to a "bad vibe"; the feeling that "You know, I really don't think this guy needs a gun from me today".

[Marko Kloos]

Something about the wording of that scenario rubs me the wrong way.

You're basically asking if I would refuse sales to a group of people if the government designates them as "suspicious". It doesn't matter whether you mean Arabs or blacks or Jews, since you're merely suspending your own judgment for a "zero-tolerance" policy.

If you agree to such a request, you'd merely substitute your own judgment for that of the alphabet agency in question, and you'd make yourself a willing tool for persecution based on ethnicity. It would be bigotry sugar-coated in red, white and blue.

If you agree to deny the right to gun ownership to a person based on the evil they *might* commit, how can you argue against gun control?

If a gun dealer wishes to exercise their own judgment in refusing sales to anyone for any reason, that is their prerogative in a free market. I would strenuously object to my government asking me to refuse a legal sale based on the Fed's opinion on who should have a gun and who shouldn't. If you concede their superior judgment when they come to you on Monday and tell you not to sell to Arabs, how can you refuse if they come back on Tuesday and ask you not to sell to Blacks, or Jews?

[Wildalaska]

You're basically asking if I would refuse sales to a group of people if the government designates them as "suspicious".

No no, my question is whether you would call us a LE agency and say "Hey Rachmad Al Fatti just bought a PSG1, he lceared his NICs check, do you want his yellow form" or something like that...

Im not talking refusing sales, just providing info on it...

[standingbear]

i was under the impression that any 1 purchaser who bought 2 or more guns the same time(from a ffl of course) were automatically put on some watch list.i could be off base but that was what i have been told.

[Standing Wolf]

I'd need to see the request for information in writing before deciding.

[Robert inOregon]

i was under the impression that any 1 purchaser who bought 2 or more guns the same time(from a ffl of course) were automatically put on some watch list.i could be off base but that was what i have been told.

Form gets faxed to BATF, but unless alerted by the dealer, no action is taken.

Only thing a dealer should be concerned about is their "time to crime" ratio that is being watched by the authorities. If it is usually high, they will not renew an FFL. Not worth losing a business over selling a few guns to the wrong people. All of us that have been behind the counter know all the games that straw purchasers, traffickers and prohibited individuals play. That's what a dealer should be reporting and not whether some guy named Mohammad just purchased a firearm. If anything, a dealer should be encouraging the likes of Mohammad to buy a gun since hate crimes across the board are on the rise. That is what this 2nd Amendment we cherish so much is all about.

[NewShooter78]

I wouldn't got reporting someone to an alphabet agency because someone of a certain "ethnic" origin bought a gun from me. If you feel like not selling the firearm to them, then let you conscience be your guide.

[Pendragon]

how DO you spot a straw purchase anyway?

if I go in and buy a .38 snub for my uncle rotten, dont I just say its for me? these people must be mentally retarded. (appologies)

[Baba Louie]

Hypothetical question? Valid, in a way.

How about the old "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" sign posted conspicuously as opposed to selling someone something you think may be used by his cousin in an illegal act.

Here in Las Vegas, many years ago, there was this man, friend of Howard Hughes, owned a newspaper, a radio and TV station, was a jew, believed in the zionist movement...bought large quantities of firearms and had them shipped to (then) Palestine to be used by his friends there in a war of Independence. Got into a heap of trouble with Uncle Sam and his Treasury boys.

Ended up fighting with the IRS for years as a result.

Since that happened waaaaay back before the 68 GCA and FFL, don't think his dealer(s) were involved, but you never know... they may have made a phone call to the T-Men... some people didn't cotton to members of the jewish faith back in that America... Is that kinda what you're asking?

If, as an FFL who sells to the public at large, and has a group of buyers who fit a certain profile, you even THINK that these purchases were potentially of the infamous STRAW MAN variety, at the very least I would (perhaps) "RED-FLAG" them for my own files, maybe (if I was REALLY worried) have a police type friend run an informal check and act appropriately.

Lotta ifs.

Gut check... agree with Tamara... if it just doesn't look right (JDLR) or feel right, you don't gotta sell or do a thing.

It'd really suck to have the ATF and everybody else show up at your door one day saying a large qty. of firearms purchased thru your shop have been used for nefarious purposes by a bunch of "bad-guys" on a mission from God/Allah, wouldn't it?

Unless you need some cheap publicity.

Adios

[CZ-75]

I wouldn't participate unless they gave me names of people they were interested in.


But then, wouldn't NICS red flag these folks already?

[Chris Rhines]

I wouldn't so much as pick up the phone to assist in the War on Some Terror. Just me.

- Chris