Patton's Sidearms

[TNGO]

I found this interesting; thought some others might, too.

www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap05.html

[Mulliga]

Fascinating. Looks like Patton had good taste in firearms. :)

[Jim4003]

Too bad soldiers like Patton are a thing of the past.

[Lone_Gunman]

Too bad soldiers like Patton are a thing of the past.

They aren't a thing of the past, its just they don't make it to General any more.

To think Wesley Clark and George Patton served in the same military just blows my mind.

[4v50 Gary]

What an excellent read. Thank you!

[Dienekes]

Thanks for posting that. I saw the SAA and the Smith at the West Point museum in 1960. My wife and daughter now tell me they're at the Patton Museum at Fort Knox...

[Brian D.]

Just FYI: On a couple of occasions now, some of Patton's firearms have been put on display at the National Gun Day Show held in Loiusville, Ky. If 3,000 or so tables of guns and miltaria aren't enough to get you there once, maybe Ol' Blood 'n' Guts's guns would be.

[TK73]

As a young German I assure you that I have the utmost respect for General Patton. He was an outstanding man and an exemplary warrior.

I wonder whether Communism could have become so widespread world over if Gen. Patton would have been allowed to live to get elected President of the United States back then...

[RWK]

”I wonder whether Communism could have become so widespread world over if Gen. Patton would have been allowed to live to get elected President of the United States back then...”

Thank you for your fine post.

I very much doubt if Patton would have wanted to be the President – and he surely could not have been nominated or elected – he was the quintessential warrior. However, it is documented that he ardently wanted to rearm the Germany people, unite with them and whatever “traditional allies” we could inspire, and head east, destroying Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, basically as it began (and, perhaps, eliminating Soviet Communism in the mid-1940s). Forty-five years latter, Patton’s fundamental vision was fulfilled.

Obviously, that was not “politically correct” or acceptable, even in the immediate post-WWII period. After all, the Soviet Union were our “brave allies” and many influential government leaders (Alger Hiss is one example) were committed (theoretical) Communists, from their affluent university days. Fortunately, the US’s senior leadership (Truman, Marshall, Forestall, Eisenhower, and so forth) were both wise and resolute.

Today’s freedom throughout Europe is a result of their character and actions as well as the United States’ multi-decade steadfastness and sacrifice throughout the Cold War. As one who spent two decades as a Naval officer, principally defending Europe and fighting the USSR, I really appreciate so many contemporary Europeans criticism of the USA: INGRATITUDE AND ARROGANCE ARE NOT AN ATTRACTIVE COMBINATION.

[BluesBear]

Thanks for the post.
We have discussed Patton's handguns several times here before.
It's one of my favorite topics.

I, however, do take exception to the statement that there is only one confirmed photograph in existence showing Patton wearing both revolvers at once.

I have never heard of any photos of Patton carrying only the .S&W Registered Magnum.

If you examine the holsters, which I did in the 1970s, you'll notice there is a good bit of honest, but not excessive, wear on the left hand holster indicating that it had indeed been worn on many occasions.
When I examined them there was no indication that the Colt had ever been in the left hand holster since there was no marking of the inside that would have occured where the ejector rod would have rubbed.

Conversely there were no markings inside the right holster where the much larger lower frame area of the S&W would have rested. There was also no pinching of the safetty strap that would have occired with the S&W hammer.

Neither of te holster had been "bone fitted". They both had, however, naturally contured themselves to their respective revolver which indicates that both revolvers had spent many many days residing in them.


As for this statement; The newly introduced Smith & Wesson firearm was a double action revolver with a special chrome-nickel-steel alloy hammer and cylinder which were necessary to withstand the great pressure of the cartridge explosion. Because of the two types of metal in the gun, the originals were unique in that they were "two-tone", with the frame a blued gun metal and the hammer and cylinder an almost white alloy. A WHITE ALLOY CYLINDER :rolleyes:

I also disagree with this statement; The Colt .380 automatic greatly resembled a small version of the M1911 Colt .45, which it was since it was designed from similar specifications.

It seems strange that this author, who seems so knowlegable about firearms would compare the .380 calibre Colt 1908 Pocket Automatic to the 1911A1 since most of us know that it is nearly ifentical to the .32 calibre Model 1903 Hammerless Pocket Automatic, with three stars on the grip that Patton wore. Holsters to fit both are identical.

On a side note one of the more famous photos of Patton wearing the .32 Colt with three stars on the grip was taken after he had been promoted and was wearing 4 stars on his uniform.



Otherwise it was a pretty good article.



Guns & Ammo Magazine did a very nice article about 25 or 30 years ago that showed many photographs of Patton wearing numerious handguns.
The revolvers and the matching leather graced the cover of that issue.

Grab a copy if you can find one. It's a keeper.
I am still trying to find a replavement for my stolen copy.

[TK73]

RWK wrote: Today’s freedom throughout Europe is a result of their character and actions as well as the United States’ multi-decade steadfastness and sacrifice throughout the Cold War. As one who spent two decades as a Naval officer, principally defending Europe and fighting the USSR, I really appreciate so many contemporary Europeans criticism of the USA: INGRATITUDE AND ARROGANCE ARE NOT AN ATTRACTIVE COMBINATION.


Dear RWK:

I agree wholeheartly with your last comment. It's almost a shame to be German. I am at a lack of words describing the feeling of having enjoyed the United States protection for many, many years and, when given an opportunity, my country and its government never has the guts to give back anything in return. It's really a damn shame... Heck, we would all speak Russian by now if it wasn't for the United States armed forces stationed in Western Europe over all those years. Please accept my personal apology for this cowardice behaviour.

Hereby, I forward my personal thanks everybody out there having sacrificed a portion of their lifes in order to keep us all free.

I had my share of heated discussions with many a fellow countryman regarding that matter and still do. I usually support the foreign politics of the United States of America. In the meantime I have become pretty much unpopular among my acquaintances here because of my "supposed-to-be incorrect" political viewpoints. Fortunately, I have a couple of fellow businessmen and blue collar friends that happen to be American.

I am sorry, but I simply had to write down my feelings.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

[MrAcheson]

I seem to recall a picture of Patton's revolvers in the Revolver forum. The cylinder of the registered magnum was blue not alloy.

I think they must have gotten the 1908 confused with the later .380 government version of the Mustang.

[Old Fuff]

B.B. Ol' Buddy ...

I have a book on World War Two that has pictures taken of Gen. Patton when the Third Army was moved to support our position in Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge. At this time he was moving quickly into a combat area where the lines between our forces and the Germans were badly defined. Up to this point I am sure about what I am saying.

I believe (but am not certain) that those pictures show him wearing the S&W .357 and no other handgun (unless it was concealed). At this time the book is in Arizona, and I am not. When I return I will check the pictures, and if I’m correct make copies for you. If I’m right it is one of the very few times he was photographed with the Smith & Wesson. To him, the Colt was a badge of office, not a weapon. He wore it to impress and inspire his troops – and of course the media.

[Johnny Guest]

Wish I had some of my old reference materials out of storage. Might be worthwhile to find a couple of articles and photographs I had years ago.

I seem to recall seeing a photo of Patton wearing only the .357 in a right-hand holster.

I had an old S. D. Myres company catalog which referred to the holsters Patton had ordered from them. I BELIEVE he had identical right- and left-hand holsters for both the S&W .357 (which, BTW, was NOT a model 27 back then) and the Colt SAA. He intentionally ordered the Border Patrol model holsters for the S&W made overlong for the 3-1/2 inch barrel, so he COULD wear the two ivory stocked revolvers at the same time, and they would appear (more or less) as a pair.

Patton referred to the S&W as his "killing pistol," but I don't recall reading any reference to his actually having fired it in combat.

I am interested that no one in this thread has mentioned the pretty-well-documented report of Patton's use of the SAA in battle: May, 1916, while serving on General Pershing's staff during the Punitive Expedition into Mexico, Lieutenant Patton took a small detail, mounted in Dodge touring cars, to Hacienda San Miguelito to attempt to purchase corn. They flushed a small group of Villaistas, who fired on the soldiers. During the ensuing scrape, LT Patton shot two men and two horses with his Colt, reloading under fire. One of the three dead bandits turned out to be Captain Julio Cardenas (self-styled "General,") commander of Los Dorados, Pancho Villa's bodyguard group. One account of the action is found at:
http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap02.html

Best,
Johnny

[RWK]

My sincere thanks for your most recent post. People like you are precisely the reason so many of my fellow service members willingly committed their lives to the defense of freedom and the redemption of oppressed peoples, especially throughout Europe.

I know you have deep roots, family, friends, and cultural ties to German, and I would NEVER suggest anyone desert his native land. However, with your perceptiveness and attitude, I suspect you would be happy and successful in the United Sates. About a hundred years ago, all four of my grandparents emigrated from Germany to New York. We shall always welcome individuals like you.

Thanks again for your heartwarming post.

[TK73]

Dear RWK:

Thanks for your beautiful words. Seriously, I have already thought about emigration... not only because of the political climate here but also because of unwise, downright stupid decisions of our political and economic leadership in the recent years. It's my impression that our land goes the direct route towards a third world country. I don't know why but there's a rather bothering tendency to eliminate the middle class completely. Time will tell what will happens. Future certainly doesn't look too bright...

Again, thank you so very much.

Thilo

[BluesBear]

Johnny,
Yes the holsters are the identical model. From what I have read and heard was that Patton was VERY particular about his appearance. It is reported that on several occasions he stated that his guns were "for show", to make a statement and instill confidence in his troops.
My Dad said that Patton was always impeccably dressed.

My Father was a Sgt commanding a tank recovery vehicle in the 3rd Army. He had three photos the he took of Patton during the war. (These were donated to the Patton Museum)
Of course he was sitting in a staff car so you couldn't see what he was carrying.
Dad said that he had seen him on several occasions since the General liked to inspect damaged tanks to better understand the strengths and weaknesses of our equipment vs the German's.

Dad told me that you'd never know what gun he would be carrying. He saw him wear both revolvers on several occasions but more often he was wearing only the Colt.
On one occasion, in a rear area, Patton noticed my Father was carrying a Sauer 38H that he had "liberated" from a German Major who decided that he didn't want to carry it anymore.
After inspecting the pistol and noticing that it was loaded with German steel cased DWM ammo, he gave my father a box of US .32acp ammo and said, "Use this son, it's better than theirs."

Dad said that even though he had seen the General about two dozen times, that was the only time he had ever addressed him personally. Patton's aid told my father that he should feel special that Patton had called him "son" instead of Sergeant or Soldier. It seems that he'd only call you Son if he liked you.


Fuff, I would love to have copies of those photos. I'd like to know if he used the strap or not. And if he was carrying any extra ammo for it. I have never been able to ascertain how he carried extra ammo for the .357.

I have heard unconfirmed stories that Patton had a .45acp cylinder fitted to his Colt. I have also heard that he used that cylinder quite a bit during the war. But evey photo I have seen showed the slide loops full of .45 Colt ammo. Do you have any info on this? If there was such a cylinder what happened to it?

Because of my Father, I was a big Patton fan in my younger years. At one time I had quite a collection of articles and stories about him. Sadly that's one of those things that mysteriously disappear as life goes on.

[jamz]

Patton carried a Colt .380 automatic? Hey, I carry a Colt .380 automatic! That's kind of cool. ;)

[Johnny Guest]

jamz - - Me, too. Well, I don't carry mine often. It mostly hides under the keyboard shelf of my home computer. Come to think of it, over the years I could have had a decent collection of “Patton-type” handguns:

Current:
S&W .357 3-1/2” barrel, pre-Model 27
Colt 1908 .380

Formerly:
Colt SAA .45, 4-3/4” (but not engraved)
Colt 1903 .32 auto
Colt Woodsman, pre-WWII model
Colt Detective Special
GI model 1911 - - I have commercial models but no GI at the moment
Remington Model 51 .380

DARN! Sure wish I’d held onto most of the formerly owned list . . .

Best,
Johnny

[Swamprabbit]

I have seen these pistols in the Patton museum at Ft. Knox. Great place to visit for military buffs if you're ever in the area around Louisville KY. Just be ready for all the standard rules and searches for getting on a military base (i.e., DON'T BRING ANY FIREARMS).

[Cosmoline]

I wonder whether Communism could have become so widespread world over if Gen. Patton would have been allowed to live to get elected President of the United States back then...

There's a book on my "to read" heap that starts with the assumption that Patton wasn't killed in a jeep accident, and that the Soviets invaded Europe in the late 1940's. I can't recall the name of the book at the moment, but it ironically features a pearl-handled COLT POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL on the cover :D You can tell from the trigger shape and side plate.

[TNGO]

Cosmoline, that sounds like something I'd like to read. What's the title?

[carebear]

Isn't there also one where Rommel revolts instead of dying and the US and Germany turn East?

[Thumper]

http://www.pattonhq.com/pistols.html

[Cosmoline]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425184501/002-4687324-8876013?v=glance

"A Damned Fine War" by William Yenne

Not bad so far.

The Colt is ivory handled, actually. But it sure don't look like no Smith .357 to me. That's a DA pony gun if there ever was one :D Doesn't that look like a PPS to you?

[Alfadog]

A few years ago Turnbull Restorations made a small number (10, I think) recreations of Patton's SAA. I stopped by their booth at the 2002 NRA convention and asked about the guns, expecting any of them to be kept under glass. To my surprise and delight, I was handed one of them. It was an exact replica down to the most minute detail. For examplem Patton sent the gun back to Colt at some point to replace the lanyard loop. Colt marked the gun with a small asterisk on the trigger guard to indicate that it had been repaired at the factory. Turnbull's recreation also had the asterisk.

I don't usually care for highly ornamented guns but that one was special. A 4 3/4" SAA is probably the most perfectly balanced handgun ever made, but that one had a certain feel to it that was unique. Handling it was the highlight of the show.

[Trebor]

In a book I read about the invasion of North Africa, it's mentioned that Patton nearly lost his pistols when the landing craft they were to be put in (with his other gear) sank. Fortunately, the gear with the pistols hadn't been loaded yet.

The same book mentions that at that point Patton did not actually have any ammo for the pistols, but would still wear them for the appearance. That might explain his wearing the .32 ACP at times.