Gunman shoots 3 in Detroit day-care center


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Andrew Rothman
September 28, 2004, 02:49 PM
NOW can we start arming the teachers?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/28/daycare.shooting/index.html

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 Posted: 1:17 PM EDT (1717 GMT)

(CNN) -- Detroit police searched Tuesday for a man who opened fire in a Detroit home day-care center, critically wounding three people, including a 3-year-old child, officials said.

Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings told reporters that the man was wearing a black jacket and black pants and was carrying a steel blue, automatic gun. huh? :confused:

She said two women, ages 41 and 22, were shot and were in critical condition, in addition to the 3-year-old.

A 7-month-old was also in critical condition, "probably as a result of being dropped," the chief said.

"It appears as though this is not random," Bully-Cummings said of the shooting.

She said witnesses reported that the man came to the door, "words were exchanged" and then the man went inside, shooting.

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Blackcloud6
September 28, 2004, 02:56 PM
How can this be Ella? Day-care centers are Pistol-Free Zones for CCW holders in our great state? So a CZF must have some sort of magical protection, right? No criminal would dare to go to one of those!

Feanaro
September 28, 2004, 03:05 PM
carrying a steel blue, automatic gun. huh?

Automatic probably refers to a pistol. That used to be a common name for one, or so I have been told.

Edmond
September 28, 2004, 03:07 PM
How can this be Ella? Day-care centers are Pistol-Free Zones for CCW holders in our great state? So a CZF must have some sort of magical protection, right? No criminal would dare to go to one of those!

You mean criminals don't follow the laws in your state?:rolleyes:

Andrew Rothman
September 28, 2004, 03:10 PM
I talked to Officer Jones in the DPD PIO -- it was a blued 9mm handgun.

I suggested he give the reporter a call and strighten him out. He said he would do just that.

Oy.

jefnvk
September 28, 2004, 04:30 PM
Next you will hear her talking about how the extension of the AWB would have prevented this. And her pushing for the MI AWB.
You mean criminals don't follow the laws in your state?
Well, if they did, they probably wouldn't be criminals :neener:

boofus
September 28, 2004, 04:35 PM
They should really pass a law against shooting toddlers.

Make it illegal to get in a car and drive to a child care center with intent of commiting murder.

Ban looking at children if you are about to murder them.

Make it illegal to point a loaded gun at a child.

If only we had more laws people wouldn't murder each other! /sarcasm off

GigaBuist
September 28, 2004, 05:07 PM
All the myriad of gun laws we have accomplished here was insuring the shooter that his victims would be unarmed.

Hawkmoon
September 28, 2004, 05:21 PM
Couldn't have been any ordinary 9mm. It was an "automatic," after all. Besides, they need to get some AWB mileage out of this. Watch for the media to start portraying this like it was an Uzi machine pistol or one of those terrible full-auto TEC-9s or something. They'll find some way to spin the story to make it appear that if the AWB had not been allowed to die, this event would not --- COULD not --- have happened.

wmenorr67
September 28, 2004, 05:21 PM
Was it a licensed daycare in a private home? If so does the law still effective? Couldn't the homeowner own firearms and defended themselves?

mordrid52
September 28, 2004, 05:31 PM
Although the reporter probably had a different agenda in mind, the term auto (or autoloader) is correct when refering to self-loading pistols. The term semi-automatic is really not correct when refering to pistols even though every one uses it nowadays to avoid confusion with full auto weapons. After all, it is the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, not the .45 Semi-Automatic Colt Pistol.

tc300mag1
September 28, 2004, 05:39 PM
To bad about the kids but like this is a big surpise with the way detroit has been this year.

Maybe if they would actually partol the street and arrest the scum bags to send um away it might get better but i wouldnt bet on it

mete
September 28, 2004, 05:42 PM
I'm sure it's the ex-husband or ex-boyfriend ,it happens all the time !!

Andrew Rothman
September 28, 2004, 06:29 PM
I know what you're getting at, mordrid, but you're wrong. A semiauto pistol is NEVER referred to as an "automatic weapon."

Anyway, I emailed the reporter:
You wrote: "He was carrying a blue steel automatic weapon, Bully-Cummings said."

"Automatic weapon" means a machine gun. Is that what it was?

The terminology is confusing sometimes. A semi-automatic pistol, like the ones carried by Detroit police officers, are sometimes referred to informally as ".45 autos" or "9mm autos," but they are semi-automatic.

Thought you'd want to clarify this for the print edition.
He wrote back:
Cops say you’re wrong. Thanks.
Arrogant enough for ya? I replied:
Respectfully, you gotta talk to smarter cops. Yes, a semiautomatic pistol is sometimes called a "automatic," but the term "automatic weapon" means, exclusively, a machine gun.

Check an encyclopedia:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761585290/Automatic_Weapon.html

Automatic Weapon, firearm that loads rounds automatically from a clip or magazine and continues firing as long as the trigger is pressed.
Or another:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Firearm
Repeating, Semiautomatic, and Automatic Weapons
A firearm that can load multiple rounds as the weapon is re-cocked is considered a repeating weapon. A firearm that automatically recocks and reloads the next round after each shot is considered a semi-automatic weapon. An automatic (or "fully automatic") weapon is one that automatically recocks, reloads, and refires as long as the trigger is held down.

The anti-gun "Americans for Gun Safety" uses the same definition:

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/safety/gloss_a.html#automatic

automatic

The working mechanism of a firearm that feeds cartridges, fires, extracts and ejects cartridge cases for as long as the trigger is fully depressed and cartridges remain in the feeding system. Compare semi-automatic.


Even the Brady Campaign agrees: http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb
Q: What is the difference between an automatic and a semi-automatic weapon?
A: An automatic weapon (machine gun) will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed (or until the ammunition magazine is emptied). A semi-automatic weapon will fire one round and instantly load the next round with each pull of the trigger.

Have I convinced you yet?

Listen -- I've been a reporter, so I know it's impossible to be an expert in everything. That's why you have to ask people who are experts. So if you don't believe me yet, call a gun shop or the police armorer or range officer and ask, "What is an automatic weapon? Is a 9mm pistol an automatic weapon?"

And do let me know what they say.

Thanks!



We'll see whether he belongs to the "don't confuse me with the facts" crowd or not.

Standing Wolf
September 28, 2004, 06:30 PM
If only we had more laws people wouldn't murder each other!

Aw, heck, yes! We need at least 137 laws for every man, woman, child, cat, and dog in the nation to keep us safe.

Ewok
September 28, 2004, 07:49 PM
The Detroit News (http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0409/28/metro-287015.htm) and the Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw104856_20040928.htm) make no mention of the type or appearance of the firearm. I hope Detroit Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings is looking for the killer, not the gun (or a white loner in a white van :rolleyes: ).

GigaBuist
September 28, 2004, 07:57 PM
Was it a licensed daycare in a private home? If so does the law still effective? Couldn't the homeowner own firearms and defended themselves?

I haven't done much research on this, since I'm not in any way, shape, or form involved with day care -- but my understanding from my CCW class a bit over 3 years ago was this:

Even if you're a lawful CCW holder and your wife ran a daycare center in the home you were NOT allowed to carry a weapon on the premises while there were children around.

It may even be unclear about when there are children around -- but I presume even a liberal judge would let you slide if you shot an intruder at home, after the day care center was closed down. That might be preusming too much though!

It was made very clear that even if it is your OWN home you CANNOT CCW while there. I'm not sure if that's tied to the CCW laws or child care laws directly.

It's just another law made with a knee-jerk reaction under the permise that guns around kids are always bad and must be controlled.

Andrew Rothman
September 28, 2004, 07:58 PM
Nope -- the freep is still calling it "a blue steel automatic weapon."

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm520_20040928.htm

Your link is an AP story that probably got added to their site automatically. The one above is the Free Press reporter with whom I exchanged emails.

Ewok
September 28, 2004, 08:05 PM
WXYZ (http://www.wxyz.com/wxyz/nw_local_news/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15924_3214979,00.html) is using the same description.

Wayne D
September 28, 2004, 08:10 PM
After all, it is the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, not the .45 Semi-Automatic Colt Pistol.

You know, he's got a good point. Did Colt not know what they were doing when they named their cartridges? Or, is it that definitions or maybe perceptions have changed over the last 90 some years?

Ewok
September 28, 2004, 08:12 PM
Auto-loader is not the same as automatic weapon.

Ewok
September 28, 2004, 08:20 PM
Hey Matt, you could always call the chief's Crime Stoppers hotline at 800-773-2587, asks for Operation Gun Stop, and anonymously tell them that Ben Schmitt has <mumble>knowledge of</mumble> an automatic weapon.... ;)

mordrid52
September 28, 2004, 08:29 PM
Matt Payne wrote:
I know what you're getting at, mordrid, but you're wrong. A semiauto pistol is NEVER referred to as an "automatic weapon."
You are, respectfully, wrong. Semi-automatic has become the standard term to refer to automatic pistols (and automatic shotguns like the 11-87) in this politically correct and gun-ignorant age we live in, but that doesn't make it correct or 'automatic' incorrect.

Browning's patent for the 1911 is for a 45 caliber Automatic Pistol, not a semi-automatic one. In the introduction for Browning's patent for the Colt Woodsman (which you can read here (http://patentmuseum.com/patents_c.asp?Thumb=261_sm) ), JMB specifically states
Another object of the invention is to produce an automatic pistol specially adapted for accurate target practice[...]
Automatic pistol, not semi-automatic. Unless you want to claim that John Moses Browning is wrong, of course.

Colt has also been referring to their pistols as automatics for a century or so. 25 Automatic Colt Pistol, 32 Automatic Colt Pistol, 380 Automatic Colt Pistol, 45 Automatic Colt Pistol. You can go here (http://www.coltautos.com/default.asp) and read scans of old Colt manuals. The term automatic is used frequently, but semiautomatic isn't.

You can go here (http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm) and read the Army Field Manual circa 1940 for the 1911/1911A1. They're frequently referred to as automatic pistols, but I don't see any references to any semi-automatic pistols.

You're more than welcome to refer to them as semi-autos (and you'll be in a very large majority these days). But to claim that it's wrong to call them automatics is absurd. Next you'll no doubt try to tell me that inflammable (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=inflammable) means not flammable.

Waitone
September 28, 2004, 08:33 PM
Although the reporter probably had a different agenda in mind, the term auto (or autoloader) is correct when refering to self-loading pistols. The term semi-automatic is really not correct when refering to pistols even though every one uses it nowadays to avoid confusion with full auto weapons. After all, it is the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, not the .45 Semi-Automatic Colt Pistol. And that is precisely why we have a hard time with the media. The media is interested in short, pithy descriptors usable in a variety of situations. We ourselves are confusing. Police are perceived as experts which may not be accurate. Reporters puke at the thought of picking up the phone and calling a representative of the NRA. Gun shops are off limits for the same reason. Josh Sugarman has access to the media and deliberately creates loaded terms for media to use. Sugarman deliberately confuses definitions.

We are losing the debate because we don't see the debate going on.

For me the issue is real simple.

There are two kinds of handguns--revolvers and slide guns, period. No debate as to auto or semi-auto. Simply revolvers or slide guns.

Ewok
September 28, 2004, 08:47 PM
WDIV (http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3767828/detail.html) is reporting:A K-9 unit is assisting in the search for the shooter, who Bully-Cummings described as a black man in his 20s, about 6 feet tall, between 200 and 230 pounds, wearing dark clothing, and carrying a blue, steel semiautomatic weapon.

Baba Louie
September 28, 2004, 08:48 PM
There are two kinds of handguns--revolvers and slide guns, period. And those pesky Thompson Center Contender lever action single shots are what? :D
Yet another tragedy to be used in the war against guns.
Prayers to those affected. Hoping that the good guys get the bad guy, soon.

Delmar
September 28, 2004, 08:57 PM
You are, respectfully, wrong. Semi-automatic has become the standard term to refer to automatic pistols (and automatic shotguns like the 11-87) in this politically correct and gun-ignorant age we live in, but that doesn't make it correct or 'automatic' incorrect.


Great-gee, can I get clips for my 45 auto?:rolleyes:

Andrew Rothman
September 28, 2004, 11:38 PM
Although the reporter probably had a different agenda in mind, the term auto (or autoloader) is correct when refering to self-loading pistols.

Yes, ".45 auto" or "9mm auto" or "autoloader pistol" would be correct to refer to the perp's G17 or P89 or whatever it was. But it is NEVER, EVER correct usage to call an autoloader an "automatic weapon."


One more time:

"Automatic weapon" means machine gun. Period.

"Automatic pistol" does not mean machine gun, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BLOODY REPORTER WROTE!

Had he written, "9mm automatic pistol" (which is the weapon used, according to the police spokesman I talked to today), I wouldn't have a problem.

My problem, mister hair-splitter, is that "automatic weapon" -- those two words, together -- means "machine gun," not just to me, not just to any gun store, but to all the blissninnies out there who want to ban all guns.

Lord, save me from my allies!

Andrew Rothman
September 28, 2004, 11:53 PM
Got another reply from the reporter:

Well, the higher ranking cops have it wrong then, including the chief and head of major crimes.

Ben

My reply:
Heh. You're a journalist: you find that possibility difficult to believe?

Anyway, this is a language issue, not a police issue. We're the guys that are supposed to be smart with words.

At the very least, as a wordsmith, you have to concede that "automatic weapon" is ambiguous, and "handgun" or "9mm handgun" (according to the shell casings found) is definitive, right?

Usually, we strive for clarity in our language. That you seem to be resisting that might suggest, to someone less convinced of your objectivity than I, that you wanted readers to think that it could be a tommy gun.

If the cops simply said "automatic weapon" at a press conference or briefing, I'd think someone might step up to clarify what that meant.

But maybe I've been out of journalism school too long. Maybe reporters these days just write down what people say. Hope not.

Best wishes,

Matt

sm
September 29, 2004, 12:07 AM
mete - I agree , sounds like a ex- husband, ex- boyfriend .

What irks the hell out of me ? Makes no nevermind what the Damn Weapon is , or the Law ...A Person went in WITH INTENT and committed this act.

1) NO matter the weapon - the INTENT to cause harm, injury or death was comitted -

2) Person was not DETERRED because of any Laws.

Now I don't know the laws in regard to CCW in Detroit - nonetheless - I suspect nobody was armed in the Daycare.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter -CRSam.

We had a fellow get upset about a relationship , drove onto campus and disharge a weapon in the parking lot earlier this year ( to get attention - he got it) . Lot of good that Signage and Laws did. Means folks like me cannot carry on campus....

Have one of the Talking blissninny media types with a kid in Daycare , with a Responsible CCW Employee shoot some Perp and Protect their kid - when a perp tries this , and lets see how the story gets written up.

No Gun Laws - Level the Playing Field

71Commander
September 29, 2004, 05:03 AM
In today's paper, no mention of a type of gun.




http://www.freep.com/news/locway/daycare29e_20040929.htm

Gunman storms day care; girl killed


Detroit police say shooting was not random, but have no motive

September 29, 2004


BY BEN SCHMITT
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER


KATHLEEN GALLIGAN/DFP

A Detroit police officer stands guard in front of the home in Detroit where a 3-year-old child was killed and two adults were seriously injured by a gunman who came to the house Tuesday. A 7-month old also was hurt.

A 3-year-old girl was killed and three others were wounded when a gunman barged into a northwest Detroit home day care center and opened fire Tuesday.

Day care owner Annette Rice, one of the wounded, staggered across the living room after being shot and collapsed.

Hearing the shots, a neighbor, Nancy Kelly, called 911, ran across the street to the center and peered inside. She saw Rice, who lived in the house, covered in blood, trying to hold herself up.

As she called for help, 3-year-old Stephanie Belue lay dying in a back bedroom of the single-story home.

"That's as far as I could go," Kelly recalled Tuesday, standing across the street from the home as police investigated. "It made me sick to my stomach. It's very upsetting."

Rice, who owned and ran the day care center on the 19300 block of Woodbine, near Telegraph and 7 Mile Road, remained in critical condition Tuesday night at Sinai-Grace Hospital. Her niece, Sherita Griggs, 22, also is in critical, but stable condition. She was shot in the jaw, stomach and arm.

"She's good right now. She's doing great," said Emmanuel Griggs, Sherita Griggs' brother-in-law.

Rice, 41, and Griggs suffered multiple gunshot wounds and underwent surgery. Stephanie died at 1:05 p.m. at Children's Hospital of Michigan. She was shot in the head.

Griggs' 4-month-old son, Amari, who was dropped during the shootings, was treated for a head injury and was in serious condition at Children's Hospital on Tuesday night.

Emmanuel Griggs, Amari's uncle, said Amari was doing well Tuesday night.

Seven people were at Rice's home shortly before 10 a.m. when a man, described as 6 feet tall and in his 20s, knocked on the door, police said. An occupant of the home answered.

"Some words were exchanged, and he entered into the house," Detroit Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings said. "And he fired shots.

"At the present time, it appears as though this was not random, but we don't have any specific information right now. We're following up on everything we have."

Two other children and a 20-year-old man, who told police he was asleep in the basement, were not injured. The children still were strapped in their car seats, which sat in the living room, police said.

Kelly, 54, said she heard, "bang, bang, bang," and at first looked out her rear window, but didn't see anything. When she turned to her front window, she saw a man leap off of Rice's porch and run south on Woodbine.

An elderly relative, who sometimes helps out at the center, had just arrived at the home and screamed for Kelly to call for help.

When Kelly opened the door to the home, Rice "was staggering around," Kelly said. "She wasn't talking. It looked like her whole face was shot off."

Soon, other neighbors and police arrived, and ambulances rushed victims to the hospital.

"I think it's disgusting," Kelly said. "How could someone do this?"

Detroit and Michigan state police scoured the area Tuesday afternoon with police dogs, but the search of the area about 3 miles around the shooting scene turned up nothing.

One tip led officers armed with rifles in and out of backyards on Vaughan Street, near 6 Mile Road, around 1 p.m., but they found nothing. Police don't have a motive for the shooting, but continued to search for a suspect and question the 20-year-old relative who told them he was asleep in the home at the time of the shootings.

"They asked us to stay in our house while they canvassed in the neighborhood," said Eva Jackson, who lives on Vaughan and was asked by officers if anyone lived in a boarded-up home next door to Rice.

Back at Rice's home, Felicia Moore, who described herself as a family friend, said she can't fathom the killing.

"For somebody to be able to go into a house, literally, with a gun, and just shoot up innocent children, it's not right," Moore said.

State records show Rice ran a licensed day care in her home for 12 children, ages 6 months to 12 years, supervised by two people. In a Sept. 1 visit, a state inspector found the home in compliance with all rules except for six apparently minor violations, including a failure to post a written plan for evacuation and care of children in an emergency.

Licensing consultant JacquelinWindham of the state Office of Children and Adult Licensing approved a renewal of the license, noting that Rice submitted a written plan to correct the home's deficiencies.

Contact BEN SCHMITT at 313-223-4296 or schmitt@freepress.com. Staff writers Cecil Angel, Jim Schaefer, Marisol Bello and Patricia Montemurri contributed to this report.







































































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