some Russian stuff you won't see in US gunshops


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max popenker
September 29, 2004, 07:20 AM
the Baikal MP-442
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/272/08/mp4421.jpg
same old Makarov PM but with 12-round mag and button mag release just below the slide stop lever
larger picture (http://img5.imgspot.com/?u=04/272/09/mp442.jpg)

the Baikal MP-448
The polymer-framed Makarov PM derivative. 9x18, 12 rounds, more or less conventional button mag release next to trigger guard
http://img7.imgspot.com/u/04/272/09/mp4481.jpg
larger picture (http://img7.imgspot.com/?u=04/272/09/mp448.jpg)

the Baikal MP-446 Viking
polymer-framed, locked breech hi-cap semiauto in 9x19. Traditional double action with hammer, partially enclosed by the slide extensions, with ambi safety and NO decocker :cuss:
http://img4.imgspot.com/u/04/272/08/mp4461.jpg
larger pic (http://img7.imgspot.com/?u=04/272/09/mp446.jpg)

Cock-and-pull holster
Made from polymer, this holster is intended to carry the gun in Coldition Three (safety on, chamber empty)
To get ready, you must first push the gun down and then pull it out; When gun is pushed down, slide remains held in the holster and you actually cock and load pistol; safety is authomatically set to off by the spring-loaded stud inside the holster, so as you pull the gun out of the holster the gun is already in Condition Zero. At the present time holster s available for Makarov guns, but also can be made for any other guns, including 1911 anf GP-35, for example. Note that you do not have to use non=-shooting hand to cock the gun!
http://img7.imgspot.com/u/04/272/09/holster21.jpg
larger pic (http://img7.imgspot.com/?u=04/272/09/holster2.jpg)

http://img2.imgspot.com/u/04/272/09/holster31.jpg
larger pic (http://img9.imgspot.com/?u=04/272/09/holster3.jpg)

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WhoKnowsWho
September 29, 2004, 08:42 AM
Cock-and-pull holster

I thought I saw this a while ago for Glocks, or was I dreaming?

The steel Makarov with the more or less standard mag release would be kind of neat. No import chances?

cls12vg30
September 29, 2004, 10:50 AM
Anybody else take the first glance at that pistol in the holster and think it was a Hi-Point? The holster looks a lot like a Hi-Point slide.

Andrew Wyatt
September 29, 2004, 12:01 PM
okay, i'll bite. why on earth would someone want a holster like that?

for 1911s and BHPs, it's MORE dangerous than carrying C&L.

crt360
September 29, 2004, 05:45 PM
Max, thanks for sharing your finds with us. Hmmm . . . interesting guns . . . the 442 & 448 look like pretty neat little guns . . . the Viking looks like it was assembled from parts for several different pistols. I'd take a 12rd Mak, but there's no way I'd carry it in one of those "hey, you're about to shoot yourself in the leg" holsters. :uhoh: My health insurance will probably go up just because I looked at it.

anapex
September 29, 2004, 06:39 PM
for 1911s and BHPs, it's MORE dangerous than carrying C&L.

How is carrying something in condition 3 (loaded magazine but nothing in the chamber) more dangerous then carrying something cocked and locked?

Mad Man
September 29, 2004, 07:34 PM
some Russian stuff you won't see in US gunshops

http://www.russianbrides.com/GirlImages/56201-56400/56288LV-05.jpg (http://russianbrides.com/)

wally
September 29, 2004, 09:37 PM
How is carrying something in condition 3 (loaded magazine but nothing in the chamber) more dangerous then carrying something cocked and locked?

Ignoring the fact that the hand in the photo will be coming out of the holster with the finger on the trigger of a cocked and loaded pistol with the safety OFF, I think its safe to say that even if the draw is done correctly with the finger off the trigger, clearing leather with a single action pistol and the safety off is not the best technique

The safety issue is not in the carry, but the draw. Tonight's CSI episode has a new cop killed when he ADs a quick draw with his Beretta.

--wally.

The_Antibubba
September 30, 2004, 04:18 AM
And BTW, I really enjoy your site!!!
:) :cool:

Andrew Wyatt
September 30, 2004, 01:08 PM
How is carrying something in condition 3 (loaded magazine but nothing in the chamber) more dangerous then carrying something cocked and locked?


holster absent, it's much more difficult to get the gun into action and significantly more malfunction prone on the first shot.

anapex
September 30, 2004, 04:20 PM
Andrew: True without that holster, my question though was with that holster in mind though. Guess I should have mentioned that in it.

Wally: True about the safety I guess I was thinking only of times when you'd be drawing and you'd want the safety off coming out.

Ok another question now too, relooking at the pictures of that holster I had at first though it was some sort of kydex like material but looking at the second picture again it almost looks like it's metal. If it's metal I don't know if I'd want that much extra weight on my side.

Dr.Rob
September 30, 2004, 09:26 PM
Is it just me or does that Viking eject to the left?

max popenker
October 1, 2004, 02:56 AM
does that Viking eject to the left?
No, it ejects to top and to the right.

otomik
October 1, 2004, 09:12 PM
PYa confusion
is it the Grach or the Viking? whats the differece, what one is the military using?
http://www.globalarms.net/topics/izhevsky/izhevsky2.htm

I like that skyph, in what way is the mini skyph more compact?

any chance we can see some PSM pics?

Soap
October 2, 2004, 12:07 PM
Max, your posts are always extremely interesting. Do you think the Russian military will ever standardize to 9x19?

goon
October 2, 2004, 11:46 PM
The polymer Mak intrigues me. I have shot a couple maks, but they always scare me just a little. My big hands try to creep up. It gets way too close to where the slide travels for me to be comfortable with them. The polymer Mak looks like someone thought that problem out.
Great little guns, but I just don't quite trust them to not cut me up.

Redlg155
October 3, 2004, 02:02 AM
Interesting...

I've seen the Hi Cap makarovs available here in the US, but none with the mag release in that location. However, looking at the picture it seems that the heel type mag release is also present on the handgun, or am I seeing things? I can see the lanyard look and what also appears to be a standard mag release.

Good Shooting
Red

Gifted
October 3, 2004, 03:28 AM
Ignoring the fact that the hand in the photo will be coming out of the holster with the finger on the trigger of a cocked and loaded pistol with the safety OFF, I think its safe to say that even if the draw is done correctly with the finger off the trigger, clearing leather with a single action pistol and the safety off is not the best technique Would it help any to remove the stud that clicks off the safety? Thus you cock it and load it, but the safety stays on.

wally
October 3, 2004, 08:56 AM
Would it help any to remove the stud that clicks off the safety? Thus you cock it and load it, but the safety stays on.

Then you'd have a normal 1911 cocked and locked holster. You can't rack the slide of a 1911 with the safety on.

Your scheme would work for the Beretta 9000s one of the few guns that can be carried cocked and locked that lets you cycle the slide with the safety on.

With a Mak the safety on drops the hammer.

This holster is designed around the misconception than guns are not safe to be carried with a round in the chamber. The cure is worse than the disease IMHO.

--wally.

m14nut
October 3, 2004, 09:01 AM
Any body esle got issues with the finger in the trigger guard whilst cocking that setup?????:what:

GSB
October 3, 2004, 09:14 AM
Any body esle got issues with the finger in the trigger guard whilst cocking that setup?????

Maybe I'm missing some nuance about how it works, but that gave me the willies. I'll just carry C & L, thanks.

max popenker
October 4, 2004, 02:27 AM
Redlg155 wrote: I've seen the Hi Cap makarovs available here in the US, but none with the mag release in that location. However, looking at the picture it seems that the heel type mag release is also present on the handgun, or am I seeing things?
The thumb mag release version is pretty new; the evidence of heel mag release confused me at first, but in the basic Mac design one leaf spring serves as a hammer spring, mag catch spring and half-cock spring. So it is just not connected with the bottom of the mag.

Daniel Flory wrote: Do you think the Russian military will ever standardize to 9x19?
We already did that =) in 2003 the +P+ version of 9x19, loaded with AP ammo, has been standartised and officially adopted for Russian LE and Military as "9mm 7N21". Pistols available are Yarygin PYa (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg50-e.htm) and Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-18 (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg111-e.htm)
And there's 9x21mm (9mm Win Mag class with AP) Serdyukov "Gyrza" / SPS (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm) pistol

denfoote
October 4, 2004, 02:53 AM
Max,
Just curious.
The CCCP was never interested in the Parabellum round.
Why the change of policy with the new government??
Is it, perhaps, that Mother Russia wants into NATO???
Gott im Himmel!!
What a concept!!

max popenker
October 4, 2004, 07:40 AM
Is it, perhaps, that Mother Russia wants into NATO???
Of cause, No

The reason is that the 9x18 Mak round turned to be too weak for intended purposes.
During late '80s a special development centered on a new pistol.
at first, Army requested new pistols to be modular and convertible for 9x18 Mac, old good 7.62x25 Tok and some super-duper-hot 9mm.
This turned to be a bad idea; the uber-hot 9mm turned into 9x21 SP-10 line of cartridges, favored by FSB operatives but slightly too powerful for "ordinary" users.
So, in eraly 90s Army wisely decided not to reinvent the wheel and selected the 9x19 as a platform for new gun. This gave better export potential for new guns, as the Army-issue 9x19 7N21 has an AP bullet and loaded in the 40-41 Kpsi range, something in the +P+ to +P++ class by US standards.

LynnMassGuy
October 4, 2004, 12:19 PM
Max, your site is one of my favorite on the web. Thanks.

Clean97GTI
October 4, 2004, 06:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, are there any balistics tests/info on the 9x19 7N21 that we can see? I'm kinda curious as to how fast it is, muzzle energy, etc. Whats the standard bullet weight?

Why hot load 9x19 when you could lite load 9x21? Weight perhaps or pistol size? I'm very interested in Russian guns and would REALLY like to get my hands on a Grach. :D

max popenker
October 5, 2004, 02:31 AM
Ballistic info for Russian 9x19 AP ammo:

7N21 (Army issue)
* bullet weigth: 5.3 g (82 grains)
* MV from pistol barrel: 460 m/s (1510 fps)
* ME: 560 Joules (760 ft-lbs)
* Max pressure ~40.000 psi

7N31 (approved only for GSh-18 pistol and PP-2000 SMG)
* bullet weigth: 4.2 g (65 grains)
* MV from pistol barrel: 600 m/s (1970 fps)
* ME: 756 Joules (1028 ft-lbs)
* Max pressure ~41 000 psi

Ballistic info for 9x21 7N29 AP ammo (formerly known as SP-10)
* bullet weigth: 6.7 g (103 grains)
* MV from pistol barrel: 410 m/s (1344 fps)
* ME: 563 Joules (766 ft-lbs)
* Max pressure ~41 000 psi

All these rounds are loaded with bullet, consisteing of hardened steel penetrator as a core, polyethilene filler and bimetallic jacket, which exposes the tip of the penetrator.

Shane333
October 5, 2004, 11:25 AM
Max,

I also think your website is great. I don't know how many times I've looked at it during the past year.

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