Holding both the magazine and pistol ONE HANDED?


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AirPower
September 29, 2004, 04:44 PM
I learned something new the other day watching another shooter. He dropped 1911 mag into left hand, put it between right hand pinky and ring fingers, now he has gun and mag both in the right hand. Is there any tactical use of this? I can't imagine holding on a 15rd doublestack steel mag like this. :eek:

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Chipperman
September 29, 2004, 05:55 PM
IMO, NO.

It's usually done only to avoid dropping a nice mag on the ground, and it not a good tactical idea. It's fine for range work with your $$$ target pistol.

When doing a tactical reload, it's better to keep both mags in the weak hand, to retain a good grip on the gun withyour strong hand. That way, you can still get one shot off quickly and accurately if a threat appears during the reload.

It takes practice, but you can get a new mag with the weak hand, drop the partially used mag into the weak hand, and put in the fresh mag pretty quickly. You need to be able to use the thumb and forefinger together, and the palm and ring fingers together.

There are different techniques, but most people get the new mag with the thumb and forefinger. Drop the partially used mag into the palm and hold with the ring finger and pinky. It will go flat against your palm, with the follower pointing toward your wrist. Then put in the new mag.

9mmepiphany
September 30, 2004, 03:45 AM
sounds like someone read the same instructions and just got confused about which hand to retain the partially spent mag in :p

i could also see this if he was going for a tactical reload and forgot to graab the spare mag first :uhoh:

stans
September 30, 2004, 07:24 AM
All this tactical reload stuff is nice for the range, but if the fecal matter ever impacts the rotary oscillator, I would not worry about hanging onto an empty magazine. I think these games may actually instill bad habits that could get you killed in a defensive situation.

Like a starting position that has you with your hands up? If you are in that sort of situation, you have already lost.

wildehond
September 30, 2004, 07:51 AM
The only time that I have seen it used is in the 'Unload, Make Safe and Show Clear' on a tactical range session. Then the shooter holds the last magazine like you described with the psitol slide locked back and the last round, that was in the chamber, between the middel- and ring finger. This makes it easier for the Range Officer to see that the shooter has gone through the whole unloading procedure.

wildehond

Soap
September 30, 2004, 09:04 AM
Malfunction drill what?

Murphster
September 30, 2004, 09:14 AM
In a stress situation, you tend to act like you train. If you're practicing pistolcraft for self-defense, it's a bad idea and one that you'd be yelled at for doing in any kind of LE training. There are old stories of dead officers who were killed in gun battles being found with their empties (revolver days) in their pockets because that was how they trained (easier to police your brass). That training problem was well known to LE officers and corrected about 20 years ago. If you're practicing pistolcraft for target plinking and want to keep your expensive mags from bouncing along the concrete, I don't have a problem with it. And I'm not knocking the guy who's grabbing his mag. I don't let mine drop at the range. But for personal ccw, I don't carry extra mags anyway; therefore, I'm not practicing something that will get me hurt. If you're really practicing to stay alive and to load another mag, let the empty fall.

Jim Watson
September 30, 2004, 09:16 AM
I think Chuck Taylor (or is is Ayoob?) teaches a Tac Load in which the partial magazine is held under the gun hand ring and pinkie fingers while the full one is inserted. Seem to be a case of the only one in step.

Chipperman
September 30, 2004, 11:57 AM
"All this tactical reload stuff is nice for the range, but if the fecal matter ever impacts the rotary oscillator, I would not worry about hanging onto an empty magazine. I think these games may actually instill bad habits that could get you killed in a defensive situation."

First off, a tactical reload is not done with an empty mag. An empty mag is useless in a firefight.

Second, you do not do a tactical reload in the middle of a firefight. A tactical reload is only done when/if there is a lull in the action.

You should practice scenarios where you shoot to slide lock and reload under fire, and also practice where you have cover and time to do a tactical reload.

C. H. Luke
October 12, 2004, 05:59 PM
"I think Chuck Taylor (or is is Ayoob?) teaches a Tac Load..."

Chuck does teach his Tac Load in this way. Weak hand brings fresh mag to the gun while rolling it btwn. fore and middle fingers freeing up thumb and forefinger to remove depleted mag and place it high between the ring & little finger of strong hand. Then fresh mag is rolld back and indexed off back of mag well and pushed home. Partial mag is then stowed.
Idea is to keep the gun empty for as little time as possible and still satisfy unconcious programming when under "deadly physical force" stress.

Monkeyleg
October 12, 2004, 06:04 PM
Ayoob tells his students that if he sees any of them trying to hang on to their magazines instead of letting them drop to the ground, he'll kick...well, you get the idea.

Soap
October 12, 2004, 11:38 PM
So what do you guys do with the loaded mag when you get a double feed?

Skunkabilly
October 13, 2004, 12:21 AM
Daniel, let's not go there :evil:

sm
October 13, 2004, 12:27 AM
Well I was taught as a brat to do this as a show of courtesy , safety and respect to other shooters when making a gun safe - administrative. I was six years old and the "gunny" taught me this.

I was brought up with 1911 style and BHP for autoloaders.

IIRC Tom Givens shows this in his Book as well.

IN real life - and in my practice drills, I count shots, when down to one in chamber that mag is dropped and left where is.

FWIW one of our drills is to be making the gun safe as described ....and needing a gun. We suggest going to BUG with weak hand. The "drill" was to simulate using a range and being held up. We ALWAYS suggest a person have a loaded firearm on person - even out shooting. Especially out by themselves , remote areas and such.

C. H. Luke
October 13, 2004, 12:58 PM
"So what do you guys do with the loaded mag when you get a double feed?"

Daniel,

A Dbl. feed is same as clearance for a Type 3.

Lock the slide back, physically rip out mag {let it go}, rack slide 2-3x to clear then insert fresh mag and rack round into chamber.

With a good bit of practice T3's can be done in ca. 3.7 seconds which of course is still a very "long" time in a fight.

Skunkabilly
October 13, 2004, 07:11 PM
Lock the slide back, physically rip out mag {let it go},

If I'm out of spare mags, I'm holding onto the one I have even if there's a chance it's bad! (hence holding it in my gun hand while fixing the gun)

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