IWB, tuckable vs OWB


PDA






P95Carry
September 29, 2004, 10:30 PM
Any IWB I have tried is uncomfortable . well for me! I am not over ''upholstered'' (no pun intended) ... and find IWB plain unpleasant, not to mention sweat aspects!.

My belt slide OWB rig is form hugging .. and is IMO as tight to me as any IWB (no more 'bulge'' factor IMO) ... but, you IWB guys explain to me how the ''tuckable'' scheme works. I mean, you have to have some belt attachment yeah? ... clip or something ... so how in heck does a shirt get tucked in and over the piece?

IWB - OWB is a bit like the 9mm vs .45acp deal .. in some ways. Far as I am concerned it is ever only what works for you. OWB (or pocket for BUG) is just dandy for me.:)

If you enjoyed reading about "IWB, tuckable vs OWB" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DigMe
September 29, 2004, 10:43 PM
P95,

I'd explain it but....I think I just had a little too much tequila and the idea of explaining something isn't appealing to me right now...even this is trying. Maybe tomorrow.

:neener:

brad cook

P95Carry
September 29, 2004, 10:48 PM
OK Brad!! I'll give ya 12 hours to ''settle down'' :D

Andrew Rothman
September 30, 2004, 12:59 AM
Essentially, the holster's belt hook is mounted halfway down the holster or so -- so there's some room for the shirt.

Like this... Michaelangelo I ain't.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1266624

AZ Heat
September 30, 2004, 01:13 AM
I have yet to find a tuckable holster that actually works the way they say. They are very uncomfortable and bulge terribly.
I am a big IWB fan (Kydex by Predator). When I can't have IWB, it's pocket or ankle.

Just my opinion.

DigMe
September 30, 2004, 01:13 AM
Yeah...that.

brad cook

Gary Brommeland
September 30, 2004, 01:27 AM
Hey Guys!

I've made something in the neighborhood of 20-25,000 holsters in my life thus far, and I DESPISE the entire tuckable concept.
In my opinion, a properly designed and constructed IWB has it all over anything "tuckable".
As far as the comfort issue goes, take a look at my Max-Con V. Most of my customers tell me that it it the most comfortable IWB they have tried.
If you buy one and it does not work for you, I'll gladly refund your money. Please let me know if I may be of service to you. Thanks!

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
September 30, 2004, 01:40 AM
I own 3 IWB designs for my P229, all from Comp-Tac...the Undercover, which I understand, isn't 'really' available anymore, the Shirt Tucker, which I don't use anymore because the single rear attachment point just doesn't work for me ( I should have bought the Gurkha) , and the C-TAC, which I use all the time, i.e, daily. My C-TAC is comfortable, believe it or not, and it's most importantly hidden.

www.comp-tac.com

YMMV. I'm a skinny guy with a long waist.

Regards,
Rabbit.

P95Carry
September 30, 2004, 08:35 AM
Matt - many thx for the diagram ... I see what can be done now, not that it appeals!


Gary - my prob with any IWB is -- sweat on the rig, and ... having the tension of a belt holding a chunk of stuff against me inside the pants .. tho I have a bit more padding with advanced age . I am somewhat ''boney'' .. it is just plumb uncomfortable.

Now - the OWB ........ to me the ''bulge'' factor is just the same . I mean, the gun and rig have same basic bulk factor wherever they are and by sitting outside of my belt ... minimal pressure on bones and no need for pants to be bigger and belt longer etc.

I am sure you have totally refined IWB's with your long experience but - doubt I will be converted now!! Will take a peek at the Max-Con you mention.

shooter1
September 30, 2004, 09:36 AM
Matt,
Excellent illustration! Gonna have to find someone who has one of these things and give it a try. (Before I buy).
str1

DigMe
September 30, 2004, 12:48 PM
In my opinion, a properly designed and constructed IWB has it all over anything "tuckable".

Yes but...some people have to tuck sometimes. To me that statement isn't really even relevant because you buy a tuckable holster for the reason that you have to tuck. If you don't ever have to tuck then you don't buy a tuckable holster. Do you offer a tuckable holster? If not then I guess you'd have a vested interest in making that statement.
brad cook

spacemanspiff
September 30, 2004, 01:21 PM
i;ve been using a tuckable all week, from High Noon.
it isnt the most comfortable, nor is it going to be the fastest to draw, but it does keep the weapon on me. it rides really low, and i have enough fatteous maximus for it to sink into to prevent printing. all you can really see is the clip on the belt.

having an undershirt between the holster and your skin helps keep it dry.

Yowza
September 30, 2004, 02:02 PM
In my opinion, a properly designed and constructed IWB has it all over anything "tuckable". Except, perhaps, that you can't tuck your shirt in over one?

Rick

Valkman
September 30, 2004, 02:22 PM
Chris, I wear Gary's Max Con V along with his gun belt and mag/flash pouch with no problems. It is as thin as you can get, which means more comfortable, yet strong as heck. An important point is the belt loops are widely spaced apart instead of being stacked on the gun and that also makes it more comfortable.

As far as the sweat issue, I just can't wear a gun against my skin so I wear a tank top tucked into 5.11 shorts or pants, and a lightweight unbuttoned short-sleeve shirt over it. I have no problems with comfort or sweat at all.

P95Carry
September 30, 2004, 02:32 PM
Hey Don ... :)

I'll definitely look into the Max-Con but - you have not seen me sweat .... has to be seen to be believed!:p

sendec
September 30, 2004, 03:19 PM
I sweat in the shower. I sweat walking to the car in the summer. I sweat walking to the car in the winter. If I type over 15 wpm I sweat. I can rust a Glock.

I havent had much luck with IWB, either. Maybe I should try a high-end holster, but am concerned that all my sweatage will destroy it.. I desperately wanted the tuckable concept to work because wearing a cover garment in the summer is literally hell, but my experiences havent been good. As gruesome as it sounds I have been reduced to sticking a 642 in the waistband of my undies, pulling up pants and tucking my shirt in. I am pretty much stuck with the 642, and have'nt the courage to try a real gun. My presentaion stroke could be timed with a sun dial and it looks like I am sexually assaulting myself, but it is the best I could come up with. Life would be much easier if I could live with untucked shirts, but it is a dress code violation.

Ringer
September 30, 2004, 05:42 PM
Now - the OWB ........ to me the ''bulge'' factor is just the same . I mean, the gun and rig have same basic bulk factor wherever they are and by sitting outside of my belt ... minimal pressure on bones and no need for pants to be bigger and belt longer etc.

I agree that with quality hoslters either one adds about the same amount of bulk. For me the IWB just offers better concealment. Your shirt can ride as high as your belt without "flashing" your piece. I carry both IWB and OWB depending on the situation and dress code.

I have two tuckable holsters, one specifically designed for tuckage and a VM-II with the clips. I've not had much luck with either. To me the gun sticks out like a sore thumb. If I have to tuck my shirt then I go with pocket carry.

YMMV

Andrew Rothman
October 1, 2004, 12:53 AM
sendec --

Please try a SmartCarry before you emasculate yourself! :D

Gary Brommeland
October 1, 2004, 07:20 AM
Quote "Yes but...some people have to tuck sometimes. To me that statement isn't really even relevant because you buy a tuckable holster for the reason that you have to tuck. If you don't ever have to tuck then you don't buy a tuckable holster. Do you offer a tuckable holster? If not then I guess you'd have a vested interest in making that statement.
brad cook"


Sir,
I do not hate the "tuckable" concept because I do not offer one. But rather, I do not offer one because I do not believe that is is a sound idea. I own a holster shop - I can make anything for my customers that any of my competitors can produce. I choose not to because I do not feel it is all that great of an idea.

A properly made pocket holster has it all over a tuckable for casual business attire. A small pistol (like a Kahr PM-9, for example) can be carried totally concealed, yet can be drawn instantly - much faster than fumbling around with your shirt/holster/weapon in a tangled up mess.

My "vested interest" lies in making sure that my customers have absolutely the best equipment humanly possible. Any assertion to the contrary is not only untrue, but insulting as well.

Iggy
October 1, 2004, 07:47 AM
I go back to the way it was done before those new fangled things were invented..

Fold the portion of your shirt tail up on the inside where your gun rides, and pull your shirt down over the pistol grip. Tuck the rest of your shirt in.. It will appear that your shirt is tucked in over the gun, but it isn't..


Pull an equal amount of shirt out on the opposite side to conceal a mag carrier in the same manner, or just to balance out your appearance...


It looks like your shirt tail has worked out a bit while you were sitting down.

It's faster to get to than a tuckable too.

trapperjohn
October 1, 2004, 09:38 AM
Fold the portion of your shirt tail up on the inside where your gun rides, and pull your shirt down over the pistol grip. Tuck the rest of your shirt in.. It will appear that your shirt is tucked in over the gun, but it isn't..

This is exactly what I do with my 4" 1911 in a Milt sparks VM2. IT works great! I tried the clips to make it tuckable and hated it

gigmike
October 1, 2004, 10:04 AM
If you are worried about sweat with a leather holster then you might inquire about horsehide. Horsehide makes for a much better barrier between the moisture and your gun. Milt Sparks holsters can come in cowhide or horsehide, also Kramers come this way.

DigMe
October 1, 2004, 10:47 AM
Gary,

Your opinion on tuckable holsters is just that. An opinion. There are thousands of people who like them and use them effectively and find them to be a perfectly sound idea.

The post that you made is the kind of stuff I hate to see. Someone who has something to sell coming in and dogging out some type of product and then pushing their own product. That's exactly what took place. Maybe your intention was just to offer up your personal opinion but for people such as yourself who have a product to offer sometimes "the high road" is not posting at all.

brad cook

pax
October 1, 2004, 11:05 AM
Kydex is impervious to sweat, but if you are not comfortable carrying leather IWB you won't be comfortable carrying kydex IWB.

If you're carrying IWB, always wear an undershirt. It soaks up sweat, cushions your skin, and is just more comfortable all the way around even when it is hot.

I like tuckables, and wouldn't take my business to someone who argued with me when I told him what I wanted in a holster. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't send someone else to that holster-maker, if that person happened to want the style of holster which the craftsman chose to believe was best for everyone.

Pocket holsters are great for pocket guns. If your gun isn't a pocket gun, a pocket holster isn't for you.

Folding & tucking around the gun when you don't have a tuckable holster sounds really good -- until you try it with any of the normal fabrics I wear. YMMV, but if the shirt tail is very long (I'm short!), if the material is stretchy (love those knits), if any of a dozen other things aren't right, it either doesn't work at all or isn't securely-concealed enough to be trusted. There was a reason those new-fangled things were invented!

As long as your holster works for you, that's really all that matters. I've never much understood the sheer level of emotion that goes into gear discussions. What do you care what the guy next to you is wearing?

pax

TonyB
October 1, 2004, 11:45 AM
P95:You carry the SP101 right??Me too..I use a Desantis thumb break and put it BETWEEN my belt and pants...this is the best of both worlds for me..I sweat like Ike Turner at a N.O.W. rally,and the pants and my under shirt act as a barrier,but the belt holds the gun super tight and doesn't move.
I tried IWB...I guess I'm just too fat for it work.Everytime I sat down the gun started to "pop" out.I also have a box of old holsters like we all do.....:cool:

Khornet
October 1, 2004, 12:09 PM
but what the heck.

I'm 5'9"/175lb with a bit of a spare tire, but not all that much.
I carry either a G22 or a Para Tac Four, and don't own a compact gun.
The only holster I use anymore is a Texas Heritage from Tucker Gunleather. It's an IWB tuckable. In the cool months I don't tuck, and in the warm ones I do. If I place the gun at my 8:00 or so there isn't much of a bulge, though you can see it if you already know it's there. When tucked, the gun just about disappears except of course for the clips.

I wear the gun all the time. Office/hospital work. Church. Off duty, fishing, hunting, yard work, wood chopping, all of it. Some of it in pretty sweaty conditions, and I mean wringing my shirt out before putting it in the dirty laundry. I have had no problems, and no discomfort. Good IWBs have a sweat guard or chafe guard, a tongue of leather extending up on the shik side to cover the hammer and end of the slide.

No one thinks there's a gun there because no one expects me to be carrying. They see what they expect. My LEO brother in law spotted it right away, but that's his job.

The only gun worth having is the one you'll have on when trouble calls. The only holster worth having is the one which will encourage you to carry. For me a tuckable IWB does the job whatever season or setting, and I don't have to keep changing holsters all the time. Maybe if I had a different job or lived in a different area/climate, I'd wear something else. But my holsters work fine for my purposes.

I might add that comfort chamges with time and wear. A new hoslter is stiff as a board but as it breaks in and conforms to your body that problem goes away. I have to be careful not to forget I'm carrying sometimes.

P95Carry
October 1, 2004, 12:56 PM
What do you care what the guy next to you is wearing? Haha .... tell ya what Pax .... if he ain't showing his ''wares'' .. I am none the wiser anyways and yeah .. despite all the apparent emotion and sometimes defensive posturing LOL .... it is indeed, what works for the individual.:) P95:You carry the SP101 right?? Correct Tony .... the P95 is not carried much now (should I change to SP-101Carry!:p ) .... we share it seems the hyperidrosis problem - I sweat just thinkin about moving - and yet sounds like I am a lighter guy than you .. around 6'00" and 200 or so. Haven't tried between belt and pants ... just might try it but - have to say either my old Jim Burke or my new lookalike (nicely made by K&D holsters) does, even outside of belt hold the piece nice and snug. I have the comforting contact pressure (mild) of the base of grips just nudging my 12th rib .. that's as snug as I need.

I posted pics on the other thread on rigs but put them here too . the first is the Jim Burke and gun, but not in place .. then the new K&D being worn . awkward shot to take! Still stiff that one - breaking it in right now.


http://www.bedford.net/design/shoot/burke_101.jpg


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/img_assd/kevburke-02-s.jpg

Gary Brommeland
October 1, 2004, 03:07 PM
Dig Me,

So, what you are saying is that because I am "in the business" that I no longer have a right to express my opinion?

Perhaps I have misunderstood something here. It was my understanding that one of the more valuable aspects of the forum arena is that newbies can benefit directly from other's technical knowledge. You see, most new shooters buy about a dozen holsters before finding something appropriate to their needs. I thought that perhaps I could save this guy a grand or so of learning things the hard way.

Maybe it's just me, but I like to corrospond with other guys on the forums that offer particular goods and services. It has saved me thousands of "trial and error" dollars.

Just so we are clear here, I always have a backlog of AT LEAST two months, often more like three to four. I don't need to spend my shop time beating on a keyboard when I could be making holsters. This is something that knife makers, gunsmiths, and yes, holstermakers do as a means of giving something back to their industry. If I were conducting a marketing campaign, this is about the single least cost effective method that I can think of - particularily when I tell a guy that he can try out a holster and get a full refund if he does not like it. Used holsters cannot be sold - they are either given away or tossed into the dumpster.

sendec
October 1, 2004, 03:45 PM
Mr. Brommeland,

I took a look at your website - your products look good.

Could you please explain why some IWBs, especially the Summer-special styles are rough-out, and some are smooth-out? For us sweatballs does it make any difference in protection of the gun? Are there pros and cons to the various styles? What would be a good "beginner' IWB?

Khornet
October 1, 2004, 03:49 PM
Rough-out sticks to clothing more and won't slide around as much. Lots of IWBs are rough-out on the body side and smooth-out on the trousers side so the trousers can slide over the holster as you change positions while the holster stays in place relative to your body. My Tucker Gunleather holsters are both made that way.

DigMe
October 1, 2004, 05:49 PM
So, what you are saying is that because I am "in the business" that I no longer have a right to express my opinion?

Nope. Not saying that at all.

I'm just saying that if you come into a thread and dog something and then in that same thread (or in that same post in your case) you then push YOUR product then your opinion has just lost any objective legitimacy.

If you were considering buying a Toyota and a Ford salesman said to you "Toyotas suck, come buy this Ford from me" would you think that he was being objective in that statement? Of course not. You're a potential customer and you'd be naive to assume that he's being objective. Maybe he DOES believe that "Toyotas suck and Fords rule" but that is his opinion and as a Ford salesman it's bound to be at least somewhat biased.

I never said you weren't successful. I'm quite sure from everything that I've heard that your product is excellent. But if you can't see how your original post is basically a conflict of interest then you are not looking at it objectively. You even included your return policy in your post. It's a freaking ad! How can you not see that?

brad cook

Gary Brommeland
October 1, 2004, 07:02 PM
Dig Me,

I did not "dog" anyone's product. I made a negative comment about a design CONCEPT.

When I come on here and take a shot at another maker, then go ahead and jump my case. If I cannot disagree with a CONCEPT and offer an alternative, then there is no hope of an intelligent debate/discussion.

In closing, I did not include my "return policy". In this business, sales are usually considered final because even a slightly used holster cannot be resold as new. I made an offer to a single individual in an effort to give him an option and try to help him out with his equipment choice.
For the record, I have no set return policy - it is done on a case by case basis. My only customer service policy is that I do my very best to never have an unsatisfied customer.

Gary Brommeland
October 1, 2004, 07:08 PM
Sendec,

Thank you for your kind remarks. In answer to your question, Khornet pretty much nailed it.

All I can add is that there is a disadvantage to a rough-out construction - some folks find them to be somewhat abrasive on their skin and therefore a bit less comfortable. Other folks like 'em just fine

Rough-outs do, however, tend to sweat thru a bit more readily, IMHO. Thanks!

Iggy
October 2, 2004, 12:19 AM
I have never seen a guy who has been more helpful on this forum and other to guys with questions about holsters..

He also will advise a guy of his competitor's holsters if he doesn't have or make what somebody wants..

He, Lou Alessi, Tony Kanaly, Matt DelFatti and many others contribute a great deal of time assisting guys on these forum and have even taken new holster makers under their wing and got them going..

I don't think the slams fired at Gary are warranted or deserved...



OK, rant off, and back under my rock!!

Valkman
October 2, 2004, 04:14 PM
Brad, you mis-read Gary's intentions. He certainly does not need to advertise on this board as he has all the work he can handle - he was trying to help Chris by pointing out why he doesn't like the tuckable concept.

I will advertise for him as he makes holsters as good as any other maker, and I have been very happy with his "rig".

Kamicosmos
October 3, 2004, 08:30 AM
I have a High Noon Tuckable IWB for my SP101. But, I'll admit, I haven't used it much yet, so I can't comment too much on how it actually functions. One of these days I'll get around to getting my CCW here in MO, and then I'll start using it. But, the reason I bought that holster is because I always tuck in my shirts. Even in the summer when it's 100 degrees out, and I'm wearing shorts and a tshirt...I tuck in my shirt. And at that point, it's way to hot for a cover garment...

That said, I still plan on getting a nice OWB holster for the SP as well, for winter and range carry. I'm a skinny guy, and my pants are always baggy, so I have the advantage of being able to hide a gun pretty well, in or out of the pants. Even pretty big guns. But again....I haven't worn a gun out in public much yet.

So...you can pretty much ignore this post. Heh. :D

Khornet
October 3, 2004, 08:44 AM
that I too always tuck in my shirts. My IWB, with a full-size auto, still conceals well even under a t-shirt.

El Rojo
October 3, 2004, 09:42 AM
Get ready for flames! I have Mexican carried (no holster, in the wasteband) for the past four years. I find this to be the most comfortable type of carry I know. I have a Glock 27 and that little guy has never come out of my wasteband. I used to buy proper fitting pants, now I use a belt to secure my piece to my side. What I like about IWB is that the barrel of my G27 might be below my shirt line, but since it is IWB, you would never know. I solve the sweat problem by always wearing an undershirt. My closer friends know that if I have on an undershirt and my shirt is untucked, I am packing.

This is by no means the safest means of carry and not all people think it is wise. I have not experienced any problems with it. Extreme care is needed to make sure your finger is always off the trigger. However, most of the day I forget I am packing. And when I am not packing, I miss the press on my kidney! I wonder if I am going to have kidney failure in older age? :D

71Commander
October 3, 2004, 09:44 AM
Sylvilagus Aquaticus. Thanks for the link. They have a paddle for a 6" N frame. :D

Gary Brommeland
October 3, 2004, 11:03 AM
Iggy & Valkman,

Thanks guys. I appreciate your support.

g_gunter
October 3, 2004, 11:34 AM
Not my intention to hi-jack the thread but I need to say this...

I can vouch for Gary. I appreciate his posts and his willingness to provide his open and honest evaluation of holster concepts and such. His statements of fact (according to his experience) should NOT be misunderstood to be any type of outright marketing blurb or promotion of his own business. He's got plenty of business, I'm sure.

Having said all of that....I've been a satisfied customer of Gary's for some time now. His products are well-known for their quality. In my RangeMaster Tactical Pistol class last week, my instructor, Tom Givens, noticed my IWB Brommeland MaxCon III (Glock 19) and asked me about it. When I told him who made it that's all he needed to hear. His words were, "that holster should last you a lifetime if you take care of it" [paraphrase].

For IWB, I love it! Its very comfortable and rides nicely without moving around in the waistband.

BTW, Gary, I finally have the cash ready for that MaxCon V holster order we discussed a couple of months ago. The check is *almost* in the mail. :-)

Greg Gunter

AZLibertarian
October 3, 2004, 12:37 PM
Kamicosmos......I'm a skinny guy, and my pants are always baggy....You touched on this, and I hope this isn't too basic for us, but for me, one of the keys to comfortable IWB carry is to buy your pants one size larger than you otherwise might. I'm not a skinny guy. I'm not huge either, but do have to admit to a bit of roll over the waistband. The idea of shoving a lump of metal/plastic into my waistband, and doing it comfortably, means I've got to submit to buying those pants a bit large.

I use a SO2 from Predator (http://www.predator-holsters.com/products-page.html), but only rarely tuck it in.

If you enjoyed reading about "IWB, tuckable vs OWB" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!