[444]

A couple months ago, I was flipping through The Shotgun News when I stumbled across the ad for Fred's Military M14 Stocks. In the ad, he discussed whether you were a cook or a rifleman. I am not going to go into details about it, you can read it for yourself in Shotgun News or on Fred's website: www.fredsm14stocks.com

Anyway, Fred is all for people learning to actually shoot their rifles. He sets a standard of being able to hit a man sized target, from any position, at 500 yards. He calls this The Rifleman's Quarter Mile.
And, in order to see that you attain this level of skill, Fred puts out targets for you to practice on. He calls them, The Quick and Dirty AQT.
Fred says that in order to hit a man sized target at 500 yards, you need to keep all your shots in a 20" circle at 500 yards. This represents a 4 MOA group. According to Fred, this should be doable with any service rifle and milsurp ammo. Fred realizes that many, if not most people don't have access to a 500 yard rifle range, so he makes it easy with his targets. He requres you to shoot into a 4 MOA group at 25 meters. Yes, that's right. You shoot Fred's tagets at 25 meters and the targets are reduced down in size to simulate that you are firing at a much longer range. That way, everyone that has access to a 25 yard range (where it is safe to shoot a rifle) can perfect the BASIC skills needed to hit a target at 500 yards.
Obviously there are going to be things you miss out on, like doping the wind, or knowing your zero for the various ranges. This can't be helped. However, you will learn to shoot from positions, learn to use your sling, and learn the fundamentals of marksmanship like sight picture, sight alignment, and trigger squeeze.
He then offers you a ranking based on your score: nothing, marksman, Sharpshooter, or Rifleman.
I wanted to learn how to shoot a rifle the right way. I have been shooting for over 30 years, but most of it was done with pistols. I always owned rifles, but I basically used them for plinking, or shot them off a rest. So, I ordered up a set of Fred's targets. Included with those targets is a stack of paperwork describing how to correctly shoot a rifle which I think are pretty good.
So far, I have tried it about six times. A few times I actually scored high enough to make rifleman. I feel that I learned a lot in the process and plan on continuing with this indefinitelly. I am blessed with the ability to go out and shoot very easily. I have been trying to view this like going to the gym. I come home from work. Grab my gear and go out for less than an hour and shot the qualification. I then come back home and actually go to the gym. I am trying to make it something I do every day.

I would love to hear from other people who have done this or are doing this or would be interested in comparing notes on-line about our progress to becomong riflemen.
I am not using this as a substitue for formal match shooting. Rather, I am using this as a vehicle to practice between formal matches. I am not yet involved in Highpower shooting. My club is supposed to have it's range done withint the next month or two and I am going to start. However, in the rifle matches I shot, I have noted a definite improvement due to my practice with these targets. I actually won my first ever rifle match after starting this program.

In summary, if you are tired of shooting beer cans and want to learn to really shoot a rifle, this might be a good first step.

[alcmaeon]

Fred's is a nice place to deal with. I have one of his surplus synth stocks on my M1A and it cut an average of 1 1/2 inches off my group size compared to the Springfields stock that came with the rifle. Not bad for a $35 stock. I also picked up the 25 yard targets and shoot them from time to time. You are correct, it may be short range but it IS difficult to keep that score high.

[Ian]

I have a bunch of his AQT target sets. I shot several last summer, and came really close to expert several times. I tend to alternate between practicing at 25 yards and 225 yards (the longest range readily available to me). Sooner or later I'll try another set of AQTs...hopefully I can make expert with a decent margin now. If so, I think I'll get one of Fred's t-shirts. :)

My goals for rifle shooting are pretty much identical to his - 4MOA from any position. I've got a ways to go, but I'm making progress. I've recently started being able to consistently hit camo-ed* silhouettes at 225 yards (from prone), and I love the feeling of actually being able to do that with iron sights.

My shooting background is in bullseye pistol, and the skills I'm learning there have been a huge boon to my rifle shooting. The biggest fundamental I still need to work on is setting my sights. I need to make a table of where my POI is at various ranges with various sight settings. I use an M1, so it shouldn't be that hard, but mine is cut down and in .308, so it's a bit different than the norm.

* I make my silhouettes from discarded cardboard boxes, and it turns out that the dirt behind the target stands at my range is almost exactly the same color as the cardboard. At first I went to the trouble of putting a big white aiming point on them, but later decided that a low-visibility target made for better practice.

[SOT_II]

There is a certain incorrectness in thinking that firing at a "shotert distance" with "scaled to targets" means anything.

1. The bullets are not "scaled" to the distance.

2. Small errors made at close distances are magnified at longer ranges. Just the nautre of physics.

3. The trajectory is MUCH different, the wind and drift are much different, mirrage is a factor. Being able to "dope" for them is as much of the skill of shooting as anything.

4. Certainly any way to get practice is good but don't kid yourself it's no where near the same.

[Ian]

If you use the center of the bullet hole for scoring (instead of the edge of the hole), the bullet scale issue is eliminated.

As for the other factors, the intent of this 25 yard practice is to become able to point the rifle precisely where you want it and fire there. That ability is by far the most significant factor in accuracy. Everything else (wind, drop, etc) can be adjusted for without too much difficulty once you can point that barrel where you want it. Certainly shooting at 25 and 500 yards are different ball games, but not that different.

Shooting from sandbags lets you sidestep a lot of rifle skills. Those guys at the range shooting 1MOA groups with benched bolt rifles and 9x scopes...how well can they shoot standing with iron sights? The difference is in the skills that you can get with lots of 25-yard practice.

[mons meg]

As any Marine on this board will tell you, (ok, maybe just me) the easiest 10 shots of the Known Distance course in the 2nd phase of basic training are the ones from the 500m line. These are prone, naturally, shot into the "B-mod" silhouette. I made up enough points at the 500 to get my Expert badge. :)

Is Fred saying you should be able to do the same from the offhand, sitting, or kneeling type positions?

[444]

"Is Fred saying you should be able to do the same from the offhand, sitting, or kneeling type positions?"

No, but he is saying that you should be able to shoot a 4 MOA group at 500 yards offhand......... I guess.
The various targets are all on one sheet. But the targets are different sizes. The targets are all "dog" targets. The first one is the biggest and you fire 10 shots off hand. I think it simulates off-hand at 200 yards. Next you have a smaller target and it is rapid fire, standing to sitting. You load two rounds in the magazine. You go from standing to sitting, fire two rounds and do a magazine change. The next target is smaller than the last one and is rapid fire prone. Same drill, only standing to prone. The last target is the smallest and it is almost just a black dot for my eyes. It is slow fire prone. I think it is sized to simulate slow fire prone at 600 yards.
So, he doesn't expect you to do the same from all positions. As the position becomes more stable, the target gets smaller.

SOT_II. I realize all that, and I think I mentioned that in my original post. Again, this isn't designed to be the do all and end all of rifle shooting. It is simply a way to practice when you don't have access to a full sized rifle range. It is also a great way for a novice like myself to practice while eliminating some of the things I need to worry about. It takes away some of those variables you mention and concentrates on the basics. As he says, it is quick and dirty. I can leave my house, shoot the course and be back home in less than an hour.

The rifles I have been doing this with (M1, M1A, 1903A3) are rifles that I have shot on known distance courses out to 800 yards. I have a pretty good idea of my sight dope out to that distance, wrote it down, and have it in the stock. I compete with my '03A3 in a monthly steel plate match out to 400 yards. So, I realize this isn't exactly the same. However, if you can hold hard enough to shoot tight groups on Fred's target, and you know your sight dope for the actual range, you will hit it at the real distance.
Bullet diameter: keep in mind that on that small slow fire prone target, you almost have to be stacking your bullets to get 5 points.

[SOT_II]

If you use the center of the bullet hole for scoring (instead of the edge of the hole), the bullet scale issue is eliminated.


If you would like, I'll invite you down to my personal 500 yard range, we will shoot at 25 yards and again at 500 yards. You will not come close to getting the same groups with the same gun, ESPECIALLY if you do c-t-c gorups. I shoot from 25 to 800 yards on a weekly basis for work...there is no real cross over.

As well the technology required to make an rifle accurate at 500 yards is different than a rifle that may hold it's accuracy at 25 yards..
Basic "marksmenship" skills (if that's what you are after) can be had without even firing a shot. The "dime" trick at short distances is nearly as effective as anything you'll "learn" printing groups at 25 yards and somehow thinking that's going to get you scores at 500 yards.

Essentially if you are "learning" on the gun to the point where you can't print groups at 25 yards, your practice is helping you with that and giving you time on the gun...that's about it.

Simple example:
I have a bolt action .22 rimfire rifle...it prints .25 inches all day at 50 yards indoors. Should I assume that since I am a wonder at 50 yards indoors that this rifle is a sub MOA gun? Should I just say that hey I can hit .25 at 50 yards, it will do .50 at 100, it should do 1 inch at 200 yards? In theory my "math" would be correct but most know that's not the reality.

Lastly I think it is wrong (and I know it's a standard convention) to call guns Sub MOA if they are not shooting under 1.047 inches AT 100 yards, minimum.
I know it sound cool and so many people do it...but really you can only "proof" a sub MOA gun at a distance.
Heck I have an airgun that costs about $3K, it puts all other rifles on this planet save maybe my bench rest rail gun...and at 50 yards, it's under a half inch on a good day...easy...but it's not a SUB MOA gun...never will be.

[444]

SOT_II
I think you are taking this too far.
I believe that Fred's intention, and my intention in posting this thread is simply to get more people out to learn to become good rifle shooters. For the umptenth time, I realize this is not a substitue for shooting at 600 yards (or whatever). But, if you don't have a 600 yard range to practice on, then this teaches you something.
Yeah, you can get a lot of good practice dry firing. If you understand what you are doing and can call your shots. This is more fun and puts the results on paper.

I get the impression that you are saying that unless you can shoot at 500 yards or whatever then don't even bother trying to become a better shot. And this simply is not the case. Shooting an air rifle in your basement helps you become a better shot. Shooting a .22 rifle on paper helps you become a better shot. Shooting this target at 25 meters helps you become a better shot. And all the skills nessessary to do any of that stuff translates directly to shooting at 500 yards. Yes, there are more skills you need to master to shoot at 500 yards, but those skills are IN ADDITION to the skills you leanred by firing that air rifle in the basement. The basic fundamentals of marksmanship can be learned at close range; no question about it.
Even if I had easy access to a 500 yard range and was a novice rifle shooter, I wouldn't start right out to try to learn the basics at 500 yards. That would be overload. You can certainly take this a step at a time, learn in bite sized chunks and build on the foundation. You learn the basic fundamentals. You learn the positions. You learn how to use your sling. etc. After you master these basics you can then move on to things like wind, mirage and all that. I see no point in trying to do it all at once and becoming overwhelmed.

"...we will shoot at 25 yards and again at 500 yards. You will not come close to getting the same groups with the same gun, ESPECIALLY if you do c-t-c gorups."
Of course not. I think everyone realizes this. In order to clean this target, you have to shoot into less than an inch at 25 meters. His goal is that if you can shoot into an inch at 25 meters, you can shoot into 20 inches at 500 meters. I realize that errors are magnified the farther out you go. I realize that other factors come into play that make your groups even larger and going from one distance to the other is not a direct progression. However, so you advocate not even trying if you can't shoot on a 500 yard range ? What is wrong with gaining the skill set needed to shoot into an inch at 25 meters ?

[SOT_II]

And my thoughts are as I have stated, shooting is improved by quality shooting.

But if I read your post right he is saying that by doing this "short course" you should be able to do the same at the long course...and I am saying there is NO WAY that short course is going to get you much of anything past any distance over 200 yards.

If you want to practice basic marksmanship and are not shooting the course of fire at real distances, you can nearly get the same practice in your own house with no ammo.

Take your service rifle, get into your position, take your sight picture, have some one place a dime on your barrel (tangent to the axis of the bore) and dry fire.
You'll be "learning" the fundamentals of marksmanship without the muss and fuss of leaving your house. But again the qualifier is "nearly"...but if you want ot hit man sized targets at 500 yards...or shoot 4 MOA at 500 yards...you'll only actually get to that by actually doing it, substitutions are a fools game.

I can go on more about how the difference in TRADOC between the Army and the Marines is so great that on average the Marines shoot so much better because they are doing "at distance" and the Army generally isn't.
I can go on about in our training and consulting done at Ft. Benning, the failings of not practicing at distance have been sorely illuminated ( recent combat experiences of our troops also prove this out)- and sadly I'm an Army man saying this.
The Marines are generally better riflemen because the train and practice to be riflemen...and even in an Army MOS like 11B, the Army tends to fall far behind their Marine counterparts.


It's a simple axiom of Palma; you improve your Palma scores by shooting Palma. Everything else is just making noise.

Hey I'm not saying don't practice as much as you can at any distance that you can squeeze in...I'm just saying that don't kid yourself on how much it's going to get you.
If you learned a lot shooting short, you'll learn even more shooting long.

[SOT_II]

No don't care what distance you are a good shot at, I'm saying that don't kid yourself into thinking that shooting short is going to do that much for you shooting long - The original thrust of, "simulating a much longer range."

Simple put it doesn't. It may make you focus on fendementals by taking away a bunch of variables that confuse you (not you but the general "you") but it is not the same by any length.

That's all... Iam all for practicing..I practice all the time with all kinds of guns and at all kinds of distances...heck I even mount Nightforce scopes on my airguns and shoot that "mini sniper" game all the time...it's tough...but it's not the real deal...

[444]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it.
But, I don't think it takes a whole lot away from this short range target. Hey, it is fun. I find it challenging. That is why I own guns and shooting them: to have fun and challenge myself.

I also took Fred's advice and got a couple of my local friends into this also. I went out shooting with them and it was the same old story. They brought a whole bunch of cool guns with them and no targets. They were just going to plink at junk in the desert. They were more interested in buying guns than they were in learning to shoot them. I pulled out these targets and explained to them how it worked. One guy said, yeah that looks like fun. Some time we will have to bring out something to lay on and try it. I said, no, we are going to try it right now and I brought something to lay on. So, we did. They thought it was a lot of fun. It showed them that they had serious shortcomings as riflemen and they wanted to get better. IMO, the fact that it was structured with a set course of fire and scoring guidelines helped get them interested. They had a standard by which to judge their skill and their progress. They both said they were going to order some targets and wanted to make shooting them a regular thing.
To me, this was the whole point of the targets. To get rifle owners to become rifle shooters.
There is no way that either one of these guys is going to make the time and effort to attend a formal highpower match. But, they will do this.

Personally, I don't find plinking to be all that much fun. I do it on occasion, but I am more interested in increasing my skill and challenging myself to get better. In today's society, we simply don't have very many long range rifle facilities. Here where I live, the closest real rifle range is about 70 miles away. You have to be a member to shoot there. And it is kind of a PITA because you have to contend with all the other shooters that are there. I am a member and try to compete there as often as possible, but these guys won't. This little shooting game however gave them the motivation to become better rifle shooters and gives us something fun to do with guns that we can do together. And, it determines who buys lunch at the end of the shooting session.

[Steve Smith]

I think that most all Master and High Master Highpower and Palma shooters will tell you that the short course IS beneficial if shot on hard enough targets. The standard Highpower 200 yard course is a pretty tough course, and if you can't clean it you can't clean the full course for sure. Many Palma and HP shooters shoot Smallbore or what is now called "Mini Palma" on an A51 target (50 meters) that is REALLY tough. When you shoot on that regularly you will learn all about a SOLID position and then when you step out to 600 or farther all you have to think about is wind. X after X in succession at distance comes much easier if you have been training on a very tough short course.

[cracked butt]

I would have to take issue with what SOT is saying. I would bet that a good smallbore competitor could easily transition to shooting targets 500 yards away.

[fistful]

What are you guys talking about? I practice shooting with my finger pistol all day long, and I always hit the neighbor, friend, road sign, coworker, animal, or car that I am aiming at, regardless of distance.

[atek3]

i agree with steve and cracked butt. Being able to hold a rifle perfectly still and release the shot without moving the sights is a skill that translates to any range shooting. hitting a postage stamp with an iron sighted m1a at 25 meters seems like a joke until you try it. When you can keep all your shots on the postage stamp, I guarantee once you learn to adjust for wind and drop you'll be ringing the 500 yd gong in no time.

atek3

[Steve Smith]

Not to disagree with Atek3, but even a postage stamp at 25 would be easy compared to Smallbore targets, The 50 Meter A51 has an x ring about the size of a pencil eraser and a 10 ring about a third larger. If you can hold that consistently, you can easily shoot High Master scores at 600 yards with some wind knowledge.

[Joe Demko]

Without an optical sight, I don't think I can even see a pencil eraser-sized object at 50 meters! My hat is off to shooters who can hit something that sized consistently with iron sights.

[mons meg]

Without an optical sight, I don't think I can even see a pencil eraser-sized object at 50 meters! My hat is off to shooters who can hit something that sized consistently with iron sights.

IMO, the hardest 5 shots on the Marine KD course are the 5 rounds sitting against a 12 inch bullseye at 300m. When you focus on the front sight post and blur the target...it disappears. The PMI will tell you "shoot the center of the blur". Well, by golly, that works! :) I dont' have spectacular vision, but 2 weeks at Camp Pendleton turned me into a respectable shot with an M16. It's all technique, and the Marines have it down to a science. I think Yoda once said "you must unlearn what you hav learned..." :D

[Dr.Rob]

400 yards is a long way with a scope. I've killed a few antelope out that far, and it's tough.

I know it can be done with iron sights, heck I've watched Steve do it. Steve's also watched me screw my brow in confusion trying to get my 1903 to shoot remotely at what I'm aiming at.

One of these days I need to sit down with one of you marines and figure out how to use apeture sights... 'cuz I really don't have it figured out. I' read Pilaster's book... I've tried really. It just doesn't seem to 'work' for me.

We shot at 'reduced' size targets to simulate longer range... I was having a hard time getting on target at the 200 yard mark. If I had been shooting buckhorn sights I likely would have shot better, because that's what I learned on.

Heck I an shoot 4 moa -very close to it with shotgun slugs off the bench, that doesn't mean it's a 500 yard rifle.

Guess I'm still a cook... how do you want your venison? :scrutiny:

[SOT_II]

Any shooter that is a competitor of some nature is going to have an advantage when crossing over...if for no other reason than sitting a line...that being said the issue wasn't that a rifle shooter wouldn't be a good shooter it was the effectiveness of the "cross training" .

Having been a fairly decent airgun 10 meter shooter, moving to small bore, and now onto service rifle and palma...I can tell you from experience that the games are so different...even airgun to small bore that the cross over value is very limited. The over riding issue is I have general time behind the rifles...and that is what makes some of the difference...but saying that hitting a reduced is going to give you the same or near same results at 500 yards is foolish...it's NO WHERE near the same.

If you desire is for fendemental "skills" you can do about as equal with no rounds being fired at all...in fact dry fire shooting is probably one of the BIGGEST training aids to world class shooters in many of the big events...but they don't make the mistake thinking that it's the same as doing the real shooting at the real distances.


I would have to take issue with what SOT is saying. I would bet that a good smallbore competitor could easily transition to shooting targets 500 yards away.

[Ian]

FWIW, our gun club faculty advisor here is a 1000-yard open sight shooter (classified as a high master and actively placing in the top 10 at competitions). His practice includes shooting air rifle in his basement and shooting smallbore rifle with our club. Of course those aren't the same as shooting at 1000 yards in match conditions, but they exercise the same fundamental skills...and without those fundamentals, no amount of trajectory knowledge will get you on target.

[SOT_II]

And again...no amount of basement shooting or short range shooting is going to get you the scores that shooting at distance will.
The ORIGINAL thrust of this wasn't that practice hurts, it was that shooting at short distances is somehow equal to shooting long distance...which it isn't.

If it was every smallbore shooter would be topline in palma. There is a decidedly different skill set and knowledge used for bot shooting styles.

To put it in as simple terms as possible:

Smallbore shooting, you have a sight picture and sight alingment that is TOTALY different than that of a service rifle or palma or other "distance games".

If you hold your sight picture that you use in small bore and try and use that in distance shooting you won't even hit the target. Hold center and calm for center in distance shooting you'll lose. So right there that is a concrete example of how shooting close and shooting long are totally different.

Time on the tirgger won't hurt but you can't say...hey I shot this group at 25 yards so at 500 I would have this group...no way shape or form.

[spartacus2002]

I use Fred's AQT targets, and they are great for getting the fundamentals down.

[GD]

Don't forget to practice shooting off hand. Since I hunt, I want to make sure that I can be accurate from any shooting position. I know many people who shoot only off a bench and get great groups but consistently miss a deer. I find that skeet shooting helps me hit moving targets. Last year I shot a deer that was running at full speed about 50 yards away. Got him through the heart with two shots that were 2 inches apart.

[VG]

Anyway, Fred is all for people learning to actually shoot their rifles. He sets a standard of being able to hit a man sized target, from any position, at 500 yards. He calls this The Rifleman's Quarter Mile.
Our Army - most Armies - have conducted studies on the realities of combat. According to U.S. Army studies dating back to the Korean War and cited on the U.S. Army's Infantry School forum, over 70% of combat occurs at 100 meters or less, and more than 90% occurs at 200 meters or less.

If you doubt this, just ask a friend to go out on just about 200 meters and shoot at you. Or do it with lasers like the Army does in training. You will find that just about any tiny fold of the earth will hide you, as long as you are willing to crawl around on your belly. From this vantage point, it is very difficult to see who is shooting at you.

So, the ability to hit a target at 500 yards may translate into practical combat skills. but whether it is the best way to train is another question.

[444]

GD, this is the whole point Fred is trying to make. You learn to shoot from positions, and learn to use a shooting sling. According to Fred, "Rifleman NEVER use a bench". You zero from prone. Shooting from prone actually gives you some practice and gives you a better zero for actual use.

VG. I am not sure where you are going with this. I am not sure we are talking about combat prior to this, but that shouldn't stop us from doing so now. First of all, there is no substitue for learning the basics of marksmanship. That should be the foundation for further training. Shooting without hitting is just making noise. You may never have to take a shot in the field at 500 yards, but if your skills were good enough to do so, a shot at 100 yards or across the room should be easy.

I have never understood the idea or purposely limiting your training and thus limiting your skills because the percentages say you will never need that skill. As I have said on many handgun threads: Let's say the average shooting is inside of seven yards. Ok, great. What if you become invovled in a self defense situation outside of seven yards ? What if you are the only one in the history of mankind to ever have this happen, can you handle it ? Or did you put all your eggs in one basket and only train to the lowest common denominator ?
I am "into" the shooting sports. I like to train and try to learn new things. Let's say that I read that the average distance in combat is less than 100 yards and I was actually interested in training for combat. So, I train inside 100 yards. Week after week I train. A year later I can take the eye brows off a nat inside 100 yards from any position including standing on my head. I can do it in the blink of an eye. Ok, now what ? Is it OK if I say to myself, self, now that I mastered that, I am going to learn to do the same thing out to 200 yards ? Or am I forced to accept the lowest common denominator ?
In your example you mention that if someone is trying to hide from you at 200 yards, they can, pretty easily. But, if they are going to fire at you, they are going to have to expose themselves. This means that you are going to be shooting at a much smaller target than the same man standing at 200 yards. This demands more skill with the rifle. Obviously, if you can hit a man sized target at 500 yards, this would make hitting just the head and shoulders of a man at 200 yards all the more possible.

[cracked butt]

If you doubt this, just ask a friend to go out on just about 200 meters and shoot at you. Or do it with lasers like the Army does in training. You will find that just about any tiny fold of the earth will hide you, as long as you are willing to crawl around on your belly.

VG has a good point.

For some of my plinking/offhand practice, I'll take a K98 and shoot off hand at 5 gallon buckets at 200 yards. The rand I shoot at is pretty flat, but there are some small irregularities in the field. From a standing position, only about the top 2/3 of the bucket is visible. from a prone postion, only about the top 1/2 of it is visible.

[Mannlicher]

I can shoot a 4 MOA Group at 500 yards from the prone position, or sitting, or at a bench rest. I cannot do it standing on my hind legs. Frankly, not many can.

[444]

"VG has a good point."

Oh, don't get me wrong. He makes a great point. One that I have brought up on this board many times. I have said the same thing when people start bagging on the M16 or M4 not being capable of putting men down at ridiculous ranges. In the past I have said that #1 most people can't hit a man at long range. #2) the guy isn't just going to be standing there in correct anatomical position waiting on you to shoot him (he is going to be moving, you are going to be moving, if he has any sense he is going to be using cover and concealment, odds are that YOU are going to be under fire when you are trying to make the shot............................). But, that doesn't mean that you can't try to become good enough to do it if the conditons cooperate.
I learned long ago that in the field, you often can't even see the target from a good solid postion. I know that when hunting, I have never been able to shoot from a position any more steady than kneeling. In this milsurp rifle match I try to shoot, half the course is shot during a "walk about". You walk from point to point and then engage the targets however you can. The brush is much too high to shoot from prone or usually even sitting.

"I cannot do it standing on my hind legs. Frankly, not many can."
I agree, that is a VERY optimistic goal. I certainly wouldn't even think about doing it on a regular basis with my meager skills. But, it is a goal to strive for never the less.

[Jim K]

I don't want to get into this too deep, but there is a heckuva lot of difference between shooting a silhouette target at any range and shooting back at someone who is shooting at you and doesn't want to be seen.

Without a scope, it is hard to even see a man at 500 yards, unless he is on the skyline or wearing a black suit and standing in front of a snowbank.

I agree that any practice is good, and I agree that hitting those small targets at 25 yards does help improve marksmanship. But the reality is something different. Most military rifles get 2-4 MOA, and 4 MOA (4" at 100 yards) was and still is the minimum acceptance standard. But anyone who assumes that a 4" group at 100 yards will always and automatically translate to a 20" group at 500 just has not done a lot of long range shooting. And a 20" group is not very good since even with everything else perfect (sure!), any given bullet can be 10" away from center mass, which could mean a complete miss.

Yes, when you don't have a long range and want to get in some simulation, do the 25 yard thing. But don't kid yourself that you are a great long range shooter if you score well at that distance.

Jim

[444]

I appreciate the activity on this thread and hope more people give it a try and post their results and opinions.

I also hope that this doesn't turn into a thread about combat rifle shooting or military use of firearms. That was not my intent. I simply want to become a better rifle shooter. And, I am looking for fun ways to do it.
I realize that if you read Fred's stuff, he gets into a lot of SHTF type of stuff. I have nothing against all that and even think it is fun to discuss. But, that is not what I am after in this venture.

[Jim K]

Well, Fred is in the "black helicopters are coming" group, and I don't want to give him a lot of credence. Some of his ideas on rifle shooting are fine, though I do sometimes wonder how much experience he has or if it is all hot air. (No, I have not asked him, and don't really care.)

I admit to very limited experience in that kind of shooting. When I did my service time, the targets were round, black, and printed on white paper. Since I was never in combat, I never saw an enemy soldier, but I rather doubt they would wear white clothing with big black circles on their chests and just stand there while being shot at.

I have done some 500 yard shooting, and even a little 1000 yard shooting. The latter is more a matter of equipment than shooter capability. I never did become world champion, maybe because I couldn't hit much at those ranges, although I don't mean to imply no one else can.

Jim

[444]

Well, not that it matters, but I frequent another board where at least one guy knows Fred personally. He doesn't have a lot of good things to say about Fred due to some kind of rift in their local shooting club. But, at no time did this guy ever question Fred's ability with a rifle.
Also, please don't get me wrong: I don't know Fred from Adam. I fully realize that Fred has not invented anything new: the information that Fred puts out about shooting is very well known and has been widely published for a century. I just happened to enjoy shooting his targets. I was hoping that maybe some other people who desire to become better rifle shooters would also.
I don't really care about the rest of it.

[444]

I got out today and shot a Quick and Dirty AQT with my O3A3 hoping to get better prepared for this weekend's vinatage bolt action rifle match.
Didn't do very well. Even after I took an alibi and re-shot two of the stages when I realized I needed to adjust my sights.
I shot a score of 171 which barely makes Sharpshooter. I guess it is back to the mess hall for me. At least I am not washing dishes.
I am trying to save the targets I shoot to see if I am improving. This is what I have done so far.
10/06 171 (1903A3) Sharpshooter
09/29 199 (M1A) Sharpshooter
08/24 225 (1903A3) Rifleman !!!!
07/21 203 (M1A) Sharpshooter
07/08 170 (1903A3) Sharpshooter


I have shot a few more, but I guess I didn't save them. I know I shot a few with an M1.
As you see, I have not been able to do this as often as I had hoped. But, I am still trying to do this at least a couple days a week.

[BruceB]

Gentlemen, a very interesting discussion, carried out in gentlemanly fashion.

My two bits:

The whole thrust of Fred's campaign with the AQT target program is to turn out well-qualified riflemen capable of efficiently using COMBAT rifles in a SHTF situation.

Taking that into consideration, the real value of the program (in my estimation) is that we riflemen will spend a LOT of time actually firing battle-capable rifles that we own, in demanding target exercises. It should be apparent that extensive practice with our personal rifles, experiencing the noise and recoil, managing the magazine loading and mag changes, and clearing malfunctions if they occur, are infinitely more valuable than dry-firing.

I agree that dry-firing is an incredibly valuable tool for marksmanship training, but it doesn't give us the training in managing a powerful rifle which we get from firing the short-distance course as laid out in Fred's AQT.

I submit that a rifleman who spends some considerable time TRYING to qualify on this close-range AQT is a rifleman much more to be respected than one who spends an equal amount of time dry-firing. Even if the shooter in question NEVER shoots "expert", he will be be a person who can handle his rifle well, and in some cases extremely well, and this probably will place him well ahead of the general shooting level of most active-service military personnel. This isn't a slam agianst our troops, but just to point out that in-service training faces many time/cost constraints which prevent our service people from getting enough range and training time to become as good with a rifle as they should be.

Dry firing should be a part of a rifleman's regimen, but I do not believe it is as useful in THIS particular case as time spent actually firing our personal rifles......even at short range.

The "MOA" comments puzzle me. MOA is simply a measure of dispersion of the shot group, and if a rifle is making sub-0.5" at fifty yards, then pards, it IS an MOA rifle AT THAT DISTANCE. It certainly is true that the vast majority of rifles don't offer a simple arithmetic progression of group size as the range increases. If your rifle reliably groups 1.0" at 100 yards, it probably will NOT group within 2.0" at 200, nor 6.0" at 600 yards. More likely, it will display an increasingly-large dispersion as range increases, for example maybe 2.5 or 3.0 inches at 200, and eight, nine, or more inches at 600. However, I'd say that a fairly high percentage of decent service-type rifles could meet the test of hitting the 20" target at 500, even from various shooting positions.

I believe Fred's AQT is aimed at people firing rifles with some intrinsic accuracy, such as Garands, M1as, AR15s and the like, because certainly the AK and SKS series don't really offer the extended-range capabilities envisioned by the program. I don't even know if they are capable of shooting well-enough to qualify at the 25-yard distance. However, I refer you to my first comment, and if what you have is an AK, shoot the course anyway, and get as good as you can! It will be time well spent, and fun in the bargain. It's like golf, in that we always play against our personal record and try to beat it the next time out.

I am enjoying this thread!

[1911Ron]

I've been following this thread at work(can't post at work:fire: :cuss: ) and would like to add that we shoot at reduced range targets due to range restrictions but its good training. I have a set of Freds targets that i haven't shot yet due to work(9/11 did wonders for over time) but look forward to using them, i feel that they are a good learning tool and should be recognized as to their limits on realism.

[444]

FWIW: I mentioned in my last posts that I was trying to get tuned up for an upcoming match.
I ended up taking 4th place in the match using my 1903A3.
My marksmanship was actually good enough to have scored second place, but one stage was timed and my time was third slowest (places 2,3,4 were tied on score and the time is used as a tie breaker).
So, I think this practice is doing me some good. There were probably close to 30 maybe even 40 people shooting in this match including a number of High Power shooters. One thing that bothers me about that match however is that on two of the stages, I called all of my shots right where I wanted them, but I missed. I am now worried about my loads. I switched from using a 150 grain Sierra MatchKing to 147 grain FMJ bought in bulk from Midway. I didn't bother shooting any of them prior to the match. I loaded them with the same powder charge and the same OAL as I did the MatchKings. Ordinarily, I would just chauk this up to my own poor skills. But, I was in a good solid postion, had a good trigger break, followed through and the shots look good to me. Another thing that leads me to believe that my loads wern't up to snuff is that I shot about half the match using what was left of my MatchKing loads and on three of the stages I did great and on two of the stages I had the problem mentioned before. IF I would have hit all those targets that I thought I made good shots on, I would have won the match by a wide margin. It should also be noted that if I was having a problem with my loads, that this probably wouldn't show up at 25 meters. I could practice all I wanted at 25 meters and never know I had a problem until I shot at the real range (in this case 300 yards).
Hopefully, I am soon going to get some real rifle training by participating in High Power. I was informed at this match that they had finished the new High Power range and had already shot a match, but they didn't know how to contact me to tell me about it. I don't know when that is going to get fully off the ground, but hopefully soon. Of course I need to buy the gear for it and it ain't cheap. I guess I will have to go back to working a lot of overtime to pay for it :(

[goon]

I understand the concept behind these exercises and it is a good idea, but I am wondering if the title isn't a little off.
Cook or Rifleman?
Someone has to feed the Rifleman.

[444]

Right
That is the people who can't qualify with their rifles.
Like me.
Do you want fries with that ?

[azrael]

444,
a "rift"?? at the local club?? man I could tell ya STORIES!!!!....The former Riverside Gun Club is like 10 minutes from my house...

Fred has a decent enough idea about "creating rifleman" and he is a pretty good shot himself....I just think he takes the UN crap a bit far at times...

[goon]

I can agree that being able to hit a man sized target under range conditions at 500 yards is a pretty good goal.
But...
The last time I was at the range with my FAL, I sat up a pop-up silouhette with a B-27REV target on it. For those who don't know, it is a B-27 qualification target about the size of your upper body, only white instead of black. While I was out there, I looked in at my brother. He was standing at the firing line waiting for me to come back. I could barely see him in street clothes, out in the open, at 300 yards with the woods as a background.
When I got back, I looked out and I could just barely see that huge white target at 300 yards. A little fog had rolled in (it was just starting to become evening but still light enough to see well, with out the fog). But if that had been a man at that range in a camo uniform, I probably wouldn't have seen him. It basically cut my visibility about in half. Just a little fog.
I have noticed the same thing when my brother is setting up targets while he has his field jacket on. Even at 100 yards, with the woods as a background, I sometimes have trouble seeing him. And that is when he is out in the open when he isn't trying to hide from me or shoot me.
I am sure that I can make a solid hit at 300 yards and most likely farther than that, but I haven't tried farther than that yet. Maybe tomorrow. :D
But that is under ideal conditions with on one shooting back at me.
Somehow, I think that combat would be just a little different.

As for cook or rifleman, not everyone can be a rifleman.
What is it, something like 7 support soldiers to every one combat soldier?
It is true that guerillas would have less overhead, but they will still need alot of support to keep just a few fighters going.

While we are on this subject, has anyone tried using a 22LR on a reduced range as a practice rifle? How well does that work?

[VG]

The last time I was at the range with my FAL, I sat up a pop-up silouhette with a B-27REV target on it. For those who don't know, it is a B-27 qualification target about the size of your upper body, only white instead of black. While I was out there, I looked in at my brother. He was standing at the firing line waiting for me to come back. I could barely see him in street clothes, out in the open, at 300 yards with the woods as a background. In Iraq tanks overwatched or led infantry advances. They were picking off enemy posiitons at 2,500 meters or more, using their optical and thermal sights - while moving at up to 40 mph. Don't forget wht rifles are called "small arms." The coaxial 7.62mm machine gun in an M1 benefits from both optical and thermal sights as well as the laser rangefinder and ballistic calculations of the fire control system. And there's not much an M1 has to hide from.

No doubt that the Infantry is needed to close on the objective and take it. But that's not at 500 meters. Todays Army and Marine Corps fighters can't afford to use training time on romantic notions. Us civilians contribute best to their welfare by paying lots of taxes.

[twoblink]

I was able to consistently do 7 out of 10 shots @ 400 yards, against a 24"x36" (2footX3foot) steel plate, with iron sights on my M1A. It drops to about 3 out of 10 @ 500 yards, where I have difficulty seeing the target..

But that's basically the goal, 2x3' steel plate, @500 yards. That to me, is a human torso. It's not easy.. And after a while, my eyes tear up from the hard staring. I've noticed with things like wind etc, the ball game is quite different.

I am not a great shot, so I encourage everything else to be one.

[Steve Smith]

I hate it when my internet is down. It looks like I left the conversation. There is far too much to even discuss at this point, lol. I am just going mad trying to hit a few topics. If I ever get consistent THR access again I'll get back with ya'll.

S

[444]

Yesterday I went out and shot another Quick and Dirty AQT target along with one of my friends that I got to buy into this program. He ordered the targets and we had at it.
I took one of my CMP M1s and did terrible: and in the process learned a valuable lesson.
I did OK standing, not great, but OK. I did OK on the rapid fire sitting, but then things started to unravel. I noticed that I probably needed to add a little bit of elevation to my sights. So, I gave it two clicks. I shot the rapid prone stage and was still low, so I added a couple more clicks elevation. I shot the slow fire prone stage and didn't get any of my shots in the scoring zones of the target. I picked up my rifle and counted how many clicks of elevation I had dialed in: just as I feared, I was turning the elevation knob the wrong way. This is the second time I had made this same mistake.
This is one of the valuable lessons that I think you can learn simply by getting in some shooting and handling your rifle. You should be getting to know and understand your rifle better. Even with me shooting my rifle more, I am still making dumb mistakes: imagine if I wasn't shooting and just decided that I was plenty good enough and didn't need the practice. This glaring mistake became clearly evident dispite the fact that I was ONLY shooting at 25 meters.
After the shooting session I mentioned to my buddy that there was a match this morning and he should come with me and shoot it. This was a new match, and today was the first day. I have mentioned previously that I have been participating in our local vintage military bolt action rifle match. Today they started a vintage semi-auto match. He agreed to come with me. He has done almost no formal shooting ever: as far as I know, the only formal match he ever competed in was one IPSC match he shot with me a couple years ago.
He shot his FN FAL that he built up from a parts kit. I shot the same CMP M1 that I shot the day before in practice.
You will never guess what happened.
He won. :what:
I took third two shots behind him.
It was a good match with about 30-40 participants. It seemed like everybody shot a good score. Better than I anticipated since this was the first match of it's kind in the area. I figured everyone would be sorting out their rifles and getting their correct sight dope, but I think most people were prepared and put on a good showing.
We shot out to 400 yards on steel plates. We had one moving target at 50 yards. And one timed stage that required the use of a vintage military handgun on a Texas Star before you shot your rifle.
A good time was had by all.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

A couple of us here shoot ntit or a rattle battle match and for me its alot of practice for 1 match a year.
We shoot the man size target from the waste up at 600 yards and 500 yards from the prone position and at 300 yards from the sitting position and 200 yards if needed from standing. you have 6 firing team members and 8 targets to shoot on. the outside two shooters each shoot on the two outside targets and the other four shooters shoot on one target straight in front of them. each member gets 64 rounds equally divided.

It goes something like this YOU get NO alibi's and if your target goes up slow or something goes wrong with your rifle you just fix it and try to keep going.
you get a 3 minute prep at 600 yards and thats it and after the prep the targets go down and a few seconds later you get the command load and be ready. You then load your mag into your rifle and in like around a average of 10 to 12 seconds the targets come up and then they go back down in 50 seconds. You try to get as many hits on the target in those 50 seconds. I load 25 into my mag and that is what I shoot at 600 and 500. and at 300 I shoot the remaning 14 rounds and we should not have anything left after 300.

After the 50 seconds at 600 your targets will come back up for score and then go down and you get up and walk in line to the 500 yard line and do it over again for another 25 rounds or so and then its to the 300 yard line for sitting in those 50 seconds. When you get to the 500 or 300 yard line you just get in position very fast as the targets are going up within around 10 to 20 seconds after you get to the line.

The targets are either a tanish military brown or most of the time a military green uniform color. you shoot weather bad like rain, overcast, bright sun, windy or what ever except fog that does not allow you to shoot due to safety.
So to make it simple for someone on our team you shoot 25 shots in 50 seconds and we field two teams now for the national's and to really make the team you should be hitting around 22 to 25 of the 25 shots on a regular basis. In the try outs alot of them hit 24 to 25 out of 25.
I was selected to fire the swing targets this year and I shoot like 13 on the left outside target and 12 on the second target from the left in 50 seconds. A example of what can go wrong was for me at 500 yards.
The targets came up all except my target I was aiming on so I started to switch to my inboard target right before I did it came up. I fired like two shots and my rifle jammed and I cleared the round and reinserted my mag and loaded it and fired my shots on the left target and then fired on my right target and ended up with 10 hits on each target with one saved round which I fired at 300 with my other 14 rounds. So in that 50 seconds I hit 20 out of 25 with a saved round, slow target and clearing a jam. Yes I would of liked it to of gone smoothly but it did not and I just did what I had to do to get the job done for the team.
So yes i do think you can hit that 20" thing with open sights out to 500 yards and unless the lighting or wind sets you back with practice you can do it also.

[444]

I got out today and shot two of Fred's AQT targets. I shot the first one with a Remington 541X (.22 bolt action rifle) that I got from CMP, and I shot the second one with my 1903A3. I scored 190 with the 541X and 194 with the 1903A3. Neither score qualified me as a riflemen, but it is the progress that counts. Each time I do this I feel that I learn a little more about position shooting and the use of my sling.
It is already two weeks away from the next bolt action rifle match: time to start tuning up. I am thinking there should be a CMP match this month which will be my first. I still don't have a spotting scope and don't know if I will have the money for one or not. Hopefully, I can work something out.

As a result of this thread, I got at least one THR member to buy into the concept: he bought the targets from Fred, got them within the last couple days and is preparing to start down the road to becoming a riflemen. He said he had been a pistol shooter until now and was looking forward to learning the ropes on a rifle. He doesn't own a .308 battlerifle, so he is going to start off using his SKS.
That's the spirit.
This brings my total up to two guys who are definitely going to work with these targets and one more possible.

[boohsdad]

You have convinced me. Will give it a try in the next couple of weeks. Will let you know how it goes.

[SapperLeader]

This has been a great discussion, and it sounds like fun. I consider myself to be fairly proficient with shotgun and pistol, but my rifle skills are subpar(nonexistant in all likihood) for anything beyond close quarters distance. I would like to order some of the targets, but was curious if the combo pack with the rifleman book is worth it, or if I should just get the targets.

[spartacus2002]

The first one-third of the rifleman book is full of great shooting tips (especially if you have an M1A).

The 2d one-third of the rifleman book is full of great history references about the 2A.

The 3d one-third of the rifleman book is where ol' Fred goes off the deep end....

All in all, Fred's Guide to Being a Rifleman is worth it.

[pdt203]

I ran into a couple of guys at the range with EBRs and they were shooting Fred's AQT. It was fun and interesting. After learning to shoot at MCRD San Diego and using those techniques for the next 5 yrs, I felt those skills would be with me forever. Boy was I wrong!

It's only been 10 yrs since I have shot on "military style" targets. When I shot on Fred's AQT I found that I need to practice more. I need to work on my natural point of aim and breathing control. This will be more important as you shoot those actual distances.

Johnny in Huntsville

[444]

Since this Cook vs. Rifleman thing is being discussed elsewhere, I thought I might as well post an update on my progress to becoming a rifleman.
I still shoot the AQT target now and then. I tell myself I am going to do it all the time, but am not being very faithful to my promise. However, the skills I gained shooting them, and some of the techniques in Fred's Guide to Becoming a RIfleman are paying off for me.
Last weekend, I shot a match that is held three times a year. It is shot on Saturday with vintage military bolt action rifles. On Sunday, the same course of fire is shot with a vintage semi-auto military rifle. The rifles must have no external modifications and the matches are shot with standard issue iron sights. The course of fire each day is divided into two parts. In the morning we fired from the line at steel plates from 200 yards - out to 800 yards. 200 yards off-hand, 300 yards rapid fire, 400 500 600 700 and 800 are fired from prone. The targets measure 20"x30" at 200,300,400, and 500. 36"x40" at 600 and 700, and 60"x45" at 800 yards. On the prone targets you can use a rest (prone supported) but it has to be some kind of field gear. Most people use a military rucksack stuffed with foam or something. Me, being a perspective rifleman means that I dont' use a sissy bag: I use a sling. In the afternoon, we go on a walk. On the walk you engage targets from field positions at unknown ranges: as fast as you can. There is a time limit and you can get off as many rounds as possible (as many hits as possible) in that time frame. The targets are somewhere around 200 - 400 yards away and the high grass usually means that kneeling is as good as you are going to get but a couple will allow you to get down into sitting. The farthest target is like a pepper popper and you can get prone, however you are at a pretty good downward angle. Two of the stages also have five pistol targets (rack of plates) that you must engage (with a vintage military handgun) prior to grabbing your rifle: all on the clock of course. On that farthest target, I got all the plates using my 1911, flopped down behind my M1 and managed a total of 11 hits in I think, 35 seconds. Not bad for approx. 400 yards while lying head downhill in the rocks.
Saturday I shot my 1903A3 and took fourth. Sunday I shot a Greek, rack grade, CMP M1 rifle and Korean milsurp ammo and I WON !!!!!!!!! There were 48 shooters from Utah, Nevada, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado.
One of the big things I can credit Fred with is in his little guide to becoming a rifleman. In it, Fred gives a table of approximate "come ups" for your sights. At our local range, I got good sight dope out to just shy of 400 yards. At this match, I relied on the approximate "come ups" for the ranges past 400 yards and they were right on the money.
As I mentioned before. There is nothing here that you probably couldn't learn shooting NRA Highpower. But, I have never been exposed to formal rifle shooting and Fred's guide and targets are helping me learn a lot of this stuff that real riflemen take for granted.
I have to use my victory to brag a little: there are a lot of NRA Highpower shooters that participate in these vinatage rifle matches I like to shoot and I beat them all. :)

In addition to this match, I shoot a twice month match at our local club that is a spin off from the match I discussed above. I also try to participate in another monthly match where you shoot silhouettes with vintage military rifles. Chickens (220 yards) offhand, pig is sitting, turkey and ram are prone.
Eventually, I will become a rifleman.

[444]

Here is also a related thread running on thefiringline.com
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170507

This is not the match I was talking about above, but this one looks like fun and part of it uses Fred's AQT target.

[444]

"While we are on this subject, has anyone tried using a 22LR on a reduced range as a practice rifle? How well does that work?"

I briefly mentioned in a previous post that I shot the AQT using a .22. This has actually become my SOP. I shoot the target using a .22, using all the good shooting techniques (hopefully). After scoring, I then use the same target with my .30 rifle. It is easy to see the two different caliber hits, so I get to use each target twice.
The .22 rifle I am using is one that I got from the CMP several years ago. It is a Remington 541X. It allows me to use my shooting sling also.

As another update, here is Fred's webpage dealing with the AQT targets: http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifle.asp?ITEM=1