Jews + "Never Again!"


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twoblink
October 3, 2004, 11:32 AM
I'm fairly curious, (I'm not Jewish, nor do I play one on TV)..

BUT... I would have assumed that since Hitler,SS,Concentration Camps, "Get in the Shower" and other phrases that are utter horrors of the Holocost are taught to your children if you are Jewish, and to your children's children, etc..

How is it "Never Again!" is not known to any of my Jewish friends (that aren't on THR..)..?

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FPrice
October 3, 2004, 11:55 AM
"How is it "Never Again!" is not known to any of my Jewish friends (that aren't on THR..)..?"

Despite what this question may assume (please don't take this as a slam insinuating that you are biased - it's not) Jews, like any other group are not a monolithic, homogenous group of people. Aside from their shared religion they have many other widely varying attributes which can define their view of the world. They may be liberal, conservative, libertarian, middle-of-the-road, or any other variation of political leaning. They can be devoted to their religion or entirely divorced from any religious practises.

It is my guess that the further removed from the European Jews who bore the brunt of Hitler's "final solution" and with the passage of time, many of these terrors are fading to insignificance in some Jews.

Yet others remember and have vowed never again.

I would ask you to think of your own heritage. IIRC you are Asian. Suppose someone asked you why all Asians did not think alike on some subject, what would you say to that?

While someone outside a group may think that all in that group share some characteristics or feelings, that is not always accurate. Given a large group there are bound to be tremendous differences from person to person in thoughts and actions.

Again, please don't take this as a slam against you - it's not. I'm just trying to answer your question the best I can.

AF_INT1N0
October 3, 2004, 12:04 PM
I know that not all Jews, or any group think alike. But having genocide carried out on your particular group, (and Hitler was not the first, hopefully the last). Is pretty darn universal. There are certain Ideals that would seem to be prevalent, and not allowing your kids to be killed by some government hardliner seems pretty commonsense to me. It would also stand to reason that people trying to take away your means of defending yourself against these A-Holes would be met with a great deal of hostility.

Of course the latter goes for any group.

You don't have to be homogenous to follow basic instincts.

feedthehogs
October 3, 2004, 12:25 PM
People in general have very short memories.
Remove them a few generations from any kind of persecution and bingo.

Roon
October 3, 2004, 01:20 PM
So which party will American Jews vote for in November?

If you know your political tides, the answer won't surprise you: Jews will almost certainly vote overwhelmingly for Party A - the Democratic Party - just as they have for more than half a century. They will do so notwithstanding the Democrats' willingness to indulge a race-baiting hustler like Al Sharpton. Notwithstanding John Kerry's uncertain trumpet in the war against radical Islamic terror. Notwithstanding the Bush administration's unprecedented support and friendship for Israel.

An interesting commentary (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/09/28/bush_kerry_and_the_jewish_vote/) from the Boston Globe.

I don't think you need to be registered.

geekWithA.45
October 3, 2004, 02:34 PM
None of my friends who are both Jewish and Gunny, (I've got several) understand or can explain why the trend of American Jews is towards liberality and tend towards gun bigotry.

When they query their brethren, the answers are the typical "it can't happen here" dodge.

Of my friends who are Jewish and non gunny, they personally tend towards explanations like "guns are OK for problems that actually exist, like predators on a farm, but aren't useful for self defense, and the notion of fending off the US Army is preposterous."

Baba Louie
October 3, 2004, 02:47 PM
Because the Holocaust happened in Europe, not here, because persecution against that particular tribe of mankind has been the norm forever it seems and thus, is accepted, because to stand up and fight is all icky and is more physical than intellectual.
(Sorry for all the generalizing stereotypes if I've offended anyone from any race or religion.)

I've got four friends who are Israeli and they and their sons ALL have a totally different outlook on self defense. These guys were all IDF and saw various elephants from '67 on. All have one or two serious personal defense weapons at home and I would not care to cross any one of them.

So maybe its a "BTDT" vs. "Never BT, Never DT and can't even imagine thinking about doing violence to protect me and mine" sorta thing... ya think?

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
October 3, 2004, 03:00 PM
People in general have very short memories.
Remove them a few generations from any kind of persecution and bingo.

True, but some groups seem to have a higher % of members who try to remember. The Irish diaspora around the world is a good example. Many still note the famine, coffin ships, Easter rebellion, etc.

Of coures the ongoing troubles in N. Ireland are a constant reminder to many.

The U.S. St. Patrick's day parades are another reminder. They're an embarassment to some with their schlock and drunkenness, but serve a valuable purpose as an easy reminder of the past.

It's difficult to believe that most Jewish people aren't aware of the phrase "never again"

R.H. Lee
October 3, 2004, 03:12 PM
Dennis Prager has written some thoughtful articles on Jews and liberalism.
http://www.dennisprager.com/index.html

KMKeller
October 3, 2004, 04:44 PM
Denial and an idealistic believe that American is the one place in the world where that kind of thing can never happen. Also, self hatred.

El Tejon
October 3, 2004, 04:53 PM
As an alum of a Jewish school (Chicago-Kent College of Law, founded when Jew were not allowed into University of Chicago or Northwestern), I asked my fellow members this exact question. The answer I received was always this, "we are in charge here. It could never happen to us here." Yet at the same time they were always expressing shock and horror at anti-Jewish violent crimes in Chicago, in the news, or how Christians were just waiting to put them in camps.

I always offerred to take my fellow students shooting. They always looked at me like I offerred them bacon.:D Heck, when I offered to teach them boxing or grappling, I got laughs.

Call me a really confused goy, but I have never understood the support the Jews give to persons who would render them defenseless victims.:uhoh: :confused:

Roon
October 3, 2004, 05:47 PM
an idealistic [belief] that [America] is the one place in the world where that kind of thing can never happen. I think this belief is held by most Americans, and certainly by all of the antis. We here believe the Second Amendment wasn't added to preserve deer hunting, and, as a result, we are derided.

What's that old saying, "Freedom isn't free!"

winstonsmith
October 3, 2004, 05:47 PM
This Jew was taught a militant "Never Again" even before he was a gunny.

I was also taught this gem:

If not this way, how?

If not me, who?

If not now, when?

If I am not for me, who will be?

-------------


Never again.

I will take responsibility for my own freedom, thankyaverymuch.

Dave Markowitz
October 3, 2004, 08:35 PM
My family lost members to rampaging Cossacks in pogroms in Poland.

I've visited Dachau and seen the ovens and the gas chambers (it's claimed that the gas chambers were not used there. Sure.) I lost relatives in the Holocaust.

THIS Jew is armed to the teeth. I take "Never again!" very seriously.

You want my guns? Come and get 'em.

DesertEagle613
October 3, 2004, 08:42 PM
I think much of the problem is that if you accept the premise of "Never Again," you must also accept the responsibility for self-defense and preparation that goes with it. Many of our "softer" brethren seem pathalogically incapable of doing so, so they just ignore the issue or rationalize it away.

That said, if SHTF, I will gladly defend them anyway (though I hope that they would see the light once the bullets are flying).

Standing Wolf
October 3, 2004, 08:50 PM
It can happen anywhere.

E36M3
October 3, 2004, 09:08 PM
Famous last words in WWII Germany were: "We're Germans first. It can't happen here.". Jews that don't live by the "Never Again" code aren't Jews. Anti-gun Jews are the single dumbest group of people on this earth. And the leaders of gun-control, Jewish or otherwise, are the greatest ally of the future Hitler.
I'm seriously considering having "Never Again" tattoo'ed across my back. Tattoos aren't permited in the Jewish religion so this would be quite a statement, especially on the beaches of Margate and Ventnor, NJ.
The KKK/Nazi rally in Valley Forge on Yom Kippur last week was proof that it can and probably will happen again. Anyone who's ever looked down on me because of my Conservative views will pray that I'm at their side if the SHTF. I'm not willing to share a foxhole with any of them, though, so they'll likely be SOL.
I hope that someone can help rid me of my very bad attitude. It can't be healthy.

Rabbi
October 3, 2004, 09:41 PM
Rabbi Mier Kahane, who started using the phrase "Never Again" in his book, was the founder of the Jewish Defense League. In his later years after emigrating to Israel, he became so radical that he turned off many American Jews who initially supported him. He became a proponent of the wanton and random killing of all Arabs and Muslims. The Rabbi went off the dep end. The J.D.L. is now headquartered in Florida I believe and has been inherited by extremists and if I'm not mistaken, is now listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization.

I have never understood Jewish liberals either, and I have tried but there are a LOT of us who are right-wing gun owners and firmly believe in the idea of "Never Again". It has been my signature for four years and my philosophy for forty years. Genocide is always a threat, anywhere and some of us will not walk humbly to the ovens, praying.

Some of us are rather old and a bit infirm, but firearms are indeed "liberty's teeth".

Regards,

Rabbi

Roon
October 3, 2004, 11:28 PM
I remember telling one of my old and dear friends, a Jew and a liberal, about the need to defend oneself. She dismissed me. I then sent her a link to JPFO. Her response, "Oh great, skinhead Jews!"

I'd still work to protect her. Some folks just don't get it.

Croyance
October 4, 2004, 02:45 AM
My question about "Never Again" is why there are few statements released condemning genocides of other people. I understand not having the resources to do something about each of them, but a simple statement looks reasonable to me. From the country of Israel or large groups is what I mean. Certainly individuals hold their own opinions.

Many who have personally seen the violence of war as a civilian don't want to be around guns. It is easy to condemn, as a civilian in a peaceful country or a soldier. I don't agree, but I can see how a person would not want to be around what they see as a tool of destruction.
The connection to Liberalism makes sence. In the beginning of the Civil Rights movement, blacks and Jews worked together. The promotion of a more egalitarian point ot view would work to the advantage of a group that has traditionally been in the minority. The viewpoint promotes future safety.
However, Liberalism (with the big 'L') also means pro gun control. Funny to me, since I believe liberalism (small 'L') is about personal freedoms within the framework of society.

matis
October 4, 2004, 08:21 AM
Rabbi Mier Kahane, who started using the phrase "Never Again" in his book, was the founder of the Jewish Defense League. In his later years after emigrating to Israel, he became so radical that he turned off many American Jews
_______________________________________________________
Greetings Rabbi,

You posted that Rabbi Meir Kahane went off the deep end and turned off many American Jews.

I don't think he went off the deep end at all. He was on the scene while the American Jews he turned off viewed this scene on TV.. Kahane realized early that the Jews in Israel and the Arabs would NEVER be able to get along with each other. And he knew why. NOTHING the Jews could do would mollify the Arabs who resent and hate the Jews and lust for their blood.

He wrote a book called, THEY MUST GO! I challenge you, or anyone else to refute anything he wrote there, or anywhere else.

The Jews he turned off are the same liberal Jews who say "never again", but hate the 2nd amendment and fear gun owners. They fear the believing Christians who are the Jews' and Israel's best friends, in the USA and in the world.

You say he advocated random killing of Arabs. What he really advocated was Jewish self-defence against murderous, marauding Arabs who typically got away with their barbarism.

Even today, Arabs guilty of killing Jews or of being involved in the planning or support of killing Jews are arrested and later often released wholesale in trade for one Israeli and some dead bodies of Jewish soldiers (in the latest instance). Then these same animals kill more Jews.

The Jewish Defence League, advocated defence of Jews and synagogues besieged by tough blacks in the inner cities. The JDL mobilized tough young Jews with baseball bats who showed the world that not all Jews are cringing pushovers.

But MOST American Jews recoiled from the JDL and stigmatized it as 'extremist" from the beginning. The same kind of liberal Jews who will vote for Kerry, who demonize the friends of Jews and Israel, and who support the leftists who embody the new anti-semites. The left that supports the "Palestinians" and works to destroy Israel is good to go with such people, but those who face reality and tell it -- those they hate.

The Jews of antiquity also killed their prophets. Most people simply hate to hear the truth. As DesertEagle613 posted above, if they faced reality they would then have to take responsibility for it.

The Israeli government outlawed Kach, Kahane's party because it quickly garnered the support (10%) of Israeli voters. Kach represented an extreme threat to the secular, socialist power structure and so they demonized and outlawed it. Today, polls indicate that 20% (!) of Israelis support the policies of Kach if only they had a party to vote for. In terms of ensuring the survival of Israel, it is IMO the Isaeli power structure who are the extremists.

Remember that the American Patriots were only 6% of the poplulation of the colonies and were considered very much extremists.

Vladimir Jabotinsky, who begged and implored the Jews of pre-holocaust Europe to arm themselves and resist their killers - he was also vilified as "extremist".

The JDL was listed as a terror organization by the Jew-haters in our Arabist State Dept. which views Israel as an irritant it would gladly sacrifice to further its interests in and curry favor with the Arab world.

Rabbi Kahane did not, in his later years, BECOME so radical....

He maintained his vision from the beginning.

A good part of the motive for American Jews and secular Israelis to hate Kahane was his direct challenge to them as Jews. He was a brilliant Torah scholar and he challenged the watered-down "Judaism" practised by his detractors. He made them very uncomfortable by exposing their "improvements" and "reforms" of G-d's laws. Such "believers", wittingly or not, as they vote in their synagogues whether or not to keep kosher, etc. -- by acting thus such Jews place themselves above G-d (which does make one wonder what EXACTLY kind of G-d they believe in). But they hate anyone who might 'cause them to take even the tiniest peek at this (which is to say at themselves).


I am not (yet?) a believer. Even so I love those who take their religion seriously and not as something to be added on to their lives (that is if they have the time and it's conveniont, of course).


It is said that, "If Christ returned today, it is current Christians who would kill him again."


It is ridiculous, absurd, to watch typical Jews today celebrate Channukah while vilifying a modern Mattisyahu.


I was always a proud Jew. But I was quite confused and ignorant about what that really meant. Then I read Kahane's books, NEVER AGAIN and WHY BE JEWISH? It was Rabbi Kahane who stoked the barely guttering flame in my Jewish soul into a veritable furnace!

Rabbi Kahane was a modern Maccabbee and I revere him as such.


It is written in Talmud: If a man comes to kill you, arise and kill him first.


Please Rabbi, this is NOT meant as a personal attack.

But if you feel frustrated with anti-gunners, how can you not feel the same about liberal Jews and their pathetically distorted and naive "views"?

I implore you to READ Rabbi Meir Kahane's book, THEY MUST GO!. My guess, especially in light of current developments in Israel, in the US and in the world -- is that you will find nothing in it to disagree with.


And I would be very happy to hear your reaction to this book.



Shalom achi! (DesertEagle613 taught me to say this)


matis

twoblink
October 4, 2004, 08:26 AM
I understand that the word "Jew" isn't one size fits all. And I understand that there are different subcultures regardless of race or culture. BUT, it would seem to me that when someone tried to kill my race and wipe my kind out of existance, I would remember it...

We (Chinese) just celebrated the Mid-Autumn Festival, in which most don't remember why it's celebrated.. and it's sad. Most kids can't, and that's pathetic.. I want to blame it all on the education system, but that's too easy. It's a parental responsibility as well..

I guess what gets me is the stark contrast, you've got Jews who asks what the heck a concentration camp is, and then you've got the Jews who's the President of his gun club..

I think people have short memories, and what's the saying "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it..."

Most think America is the best place on earth, but those views seemed to be held by people who's never been outside the country..

As far as "That will never happen here..." I'm sure Hunters in NJ,NY,Chicago all use to say that as well...

Bulldozer
October 4, 2004, 08:30 AM
Well, I'm a politically conservative, gun-toting Jew. My father was a Jewish soldier in WW II and he made damn sure his son and family knew the value of firearms for defense. I intend to pass that knowldge on to my children as well.

I am always wowed by the "can't happen here" syndrome. If there is one thing that should have been absorbed it is that it can happen anytime, anywhere to anyone.

The Torah states that we have a duty to protect our lives and those of our loved ones.

MrMurphy
October 4, 2004, 09:00 AM
While I'm definitely not Jewish, I've got a mess of Israeli friends, and know many Jews here in the US. The ones here in the US definitely seem to be more liberal and antigun as a group. The ones over there tend to carry their M16s everywhere they go. :)

The ones over there live with terrorism on a daily basis and think accordingly. Friend of mine is 28, a daycare school person with 20 kids under her care. And she knows how to use her CAR-15 very, very well... she's a military policewoman in the reserves.


My boss over here at one time was Jewish.. we drove from L.A to Phoenix on a trip with his kids (he had bad feet, couldn't drive for more than an hour, so I became the chauffeur), and on the drive back, we broke down for a time. He said "don't bring any of your guns". Considering he had a 14,12 and 3 year old along, I guess I can't blame him.

But now we're broken down way out in the middle of nowhere, for several hours. When I pulled a Kabar out of my bag, he was kind of grateful, since he knew I knew how to use it.

He's no shooter, but he's a lot less antigun now than he used to be...

mondocomputerman
October 4, 2004, 09:00 AM
One of my favorites:

GEM
October 4, 2004, 11:05 AM
I agree with some of the head in the sand arguments made here. I once tried to make a presentation on the RKBA to a Jewish group as its president was a gunny friend of mine. I was turned down as not being interested.

I will state some reasons:

1. Many American Jews have not be raised in a culture were owning guns is seen as valuable. Who owns guns - the state and criminals? The state uses guns to protect against criminals. Thus, private guns are seen as just something a criminal wants.

2. They see the best defense against genocide as being the liberal state that guarantees personal freedom.

3. Unfortunately, guns are seen as totems of the 'right wing', Christian only branch of American politics. That's who mainly is seen as the public face of the RKBA. One only has to read gun forums to see how the moderators have to fight to control the right wing loonie branch that periodically break into racism, homophobia, 'this is a christian nation' rhetoric.

That women's organizations, the Pink Pistols, JFPO, etc. exist is little known. On Glock Talk - a significant portion denies that one can be socially liberal and for the RKBA. You have to be a right wing conservative or else.

Thus, the socially liberal Jew sees the gun as an emblem of exactly the forces that eventually lead to things like the Holocaust. Better to remove guns from these folks than buying your own for shoot outs in the street with racists.

Just go to the gun show and see the Nazi table every once in awhile.

Unless the RKBA's message of freedom can be separated in folks mind from having to be a conservative at best and Nazi bigot at worst, liberally minded folks don't see the gun as useful.

This will engender some flaming but it is more truthful to look at our own dark side than just say - Oh, those Jews are so Silly!

RON in PA
October 4, 2004, 11:28 AM
GEM: Excellent post, I think you have covered most of the reasons. Another is that most of my tribe are city or suburban dwellers and are thus not exposed to the positve aspects of the gun culture. How this NYC born Jew grew up to be a gun owner, NRA member, hunter and registered Republican is beyond the comprehension of most of my relatives.

Roon
October 4, 2004, 12:01 PM
GEM,

I also agree, very good post.

I was, at one time, on the left - but then the items being addressed were of substance, such as basic human rights. Now the left has drifted off into lunacy without footing, and I have no connection with it whatsoever.

On the other hand, I think the evangelical right has a good dose of its own lunacy, and I got no truck with those folks.

One area of common ground we all share here is the right to preserve our basic rights, defended by the Second, for all of us to join the lunacy we connect to. Hence, the NRA bumper sticker on my vehicle, "Oh God, there goes another GunNut!" :D

Andrew Rothman
October 4, 2004, 12:14 PM
Another unapologetic pistol-packin' Hebe here -- see my signature?

I think that a major reason for the anti-gun nature of a broad majority of Jews can be attributed to socio-geography (if that's a word).

Residents of large urban centers tend to be both liberal and anti-gun. Consider NY, NJ, LA, Boston, etc.

Jews tend to be, as a culture, well-educated. That leads to a tendancy to live in large urban centers (where the universities, banks, large hospitals and law firms are :)).

And a ton of Jews live in New York. Many of those that don't are not more than a generation removed.

So I don't think that Jews make New York liberal, but rather, New York makes Jews liberal.

It's not the whole story, but it's sure part of it.

- Matt
(Raised by liberal New York Jews, but taught to decide for himself)

Sam Adams
October 4, 2004, 03:29 PM
Yours truly is yet another well-armed Jew. I learned about "Never Again!" as a child, and I honestly don't know a single Jew who's older than 15 who doesn't know what it means.

However, I do know quite a number who can't connect the dots - the ones who talk the talk but don't walk the walk, the ones whose voices always jump an octave when discussing guns, and who almost always state the word "gun" in the following way: "GUUUUUUUUNNNNN." They wouldn't be caught dead even looking at a gun for longer than it took to run in the other direction, let alone shooting one, much less owning one and being familiar with its function and construction.

It is disturbing, to say the least, to speak with someone who had lost dozens or hundreds of family members to the murderous savagery of the Nazis and their helpers, who is simultaneously anti-gun. I simply don't understand the reasoning - even as a 7- or 8-year-old I had realized that in order to protect myself against another genocide happening here or anywhere else I would need to have a gun. Yet, some otherwise very learned people that I would otherwise have a lot of respect for can't even get to where I was at a very early age.

Of course, the question is: WHY? The reasons are too numerous and complex to explain in a short space, but I'll throw out a couple of reasons. First, as has been pointed out by others, Jews tend to be a very urban people (at least in this country and Europe, from where most US Jews' immediate ancestors came). Urban people, of whatever ethnicity or religion, tend to be anti-gun. They don't have ranges to go to, they don't hunt, they don't have farms to protect against critters, and the only uses that they ever see or hear about are by criminals or by the police against criminals. In this scenario, the only actors having guns that aren't employees of the State are criminals, and most Jews (like anyone else) don't want to be associated with criminals. The second reason is that, historically (i.e. in the post-Second Temple era), Jews have been denied arms. The ones who oppressed them (most recently the Nazis) always had arms of one kind or another. Wishing to be as unlike their oppressors as possible, soft Jews (i.e. those not actively fighting to survive, i.e. the Israelis) have consciously avoided contact with arms. Third, there's the "It can't happen HERE" mentality.

As stated, I cannot fathom the reasoning behind these thoughts, as there are many facts and much logic behind the opposite viewpoint. Criminals are, by definition, law-breakers. What criminal problem could arise from having law-abiding people armed? As to the Nazis, et al, being armed, how does being disarmed help any potential victim? Those who won't arm themselves on philosophical grounds are Ghetto Jews in my opinion. They'd have fit comfortably in the Warsaw Ghetto, getting ready to be slaughtered like sheep with little to do except bleating about it. "It can't happen here" is, historically, the biggest steaming pile that I have ever heard. Jews were kicked out of Spain at swordpoint in 1492 (those that weren't tortured, killed or forced to convert, that is) after having lived there since Roman times. Jews were kicked out of virtually every European country at least once during the Middle Ages, that is when they weren't being murdered or forced to surrender their property in one way or another. The Nazi genocide itself originated in a country to which Jews had been utterly loyal (as an example, Jews served in the German Army in WW1 in greater numbers, per capita, than the general population) and to which they had contributed innumerable scientific and cultural advances. In short, nothing guarantees that Jews will be safe in any particular place that they don't control - which is the reasoning behind Zionism, that Jews must be able to govern themselves. [None of the above is intended to diminish the morality and courage of those non-Jewish individuals and nations which tried to or succeeded in protecting Jews in some way. We Jews are very grateful for these acts, and we honor at least some of them as "Righteous Gentiles" at Yad Vashem (the best known of the Israeli museums dedicated to the Holocaust/Shoah)].

For those unfamiliar with Judaism (as opposed to Jews), the religion is NOT anti-gun or anti-self-defense. In fact, there is a very strong religious reason to be armed. There are numerous places in the Torah and Talmud (for lack of a better analogy, the Law and the Regulations) where reference is made to protecting one's self and family. Life is precious, it is our most precious gift from G-d, and to waste it by not actively protecting it when it is threatened is a grievous sin. Virtually all of the laws in the Torah and the Talmud can be broken in order to save a life - what does THAT tell you? It has been my experience that the most vociferously anti-gun Jews tend to be less- or non-religious (as with every rule, there are exceptions on both sides).

Me - as I said, I'm armed. Well armed (though I can think of at least 10 additional rifles and handguns that I'd like, and that's without devoting serious thought to the subject, so I'm not as well-armed as I'd like to be). I practice with my guns as much as I can with a wife and 2 very young kids, and I reload. I also carry (thank you, Texas - you are an infinite improvement over the PRNJ) regularly, including to shul (the synogogue, to those of you who don't know the term). I also know that many of my friends and acquaintances at the shul (several of whom have IDF training, some of that in the special forces) carry on all of the major holidays, and that even the Rabbi has a CHL and practices regularly. I do my best to introduce others Jews to firearms, esp. those who are young and (hopefully) less poisoned by the anti-gun liberal ideology of their cousins on the coasts.

Cosmoline
October 4, 2004, 04:12 PM
Part of the issue may be the way in which "Never Again" emerged as a school of thought in the US. Though the slogan itself comes from the Warsaw uprising, its modern use in the US comes from none other than MEIR KAHANE. Though the events of the past fifteen years have proved many of his concerns valid, Kahane is still regarded by many Jews in the US and indeed Israel as a dangerous reactionary. Someone who was rocking the boat and making trouble with non-Jews.

I don't pretend to understand all the subtlety of the situation, but in broad strokes the main stream of American Jews, particularly those connected with the reform movement, are still deathly afraid of rocking the boat with non-Jews. They find safety in the notion of fitting in and not being too different. They certainly don't want to appear dangerous. The American left, with its socialist dogma and global village rhetoric, seems to provide a safe refuge from the horrors of the past. Indeed many European Jews also found refuge in socialism. And much of Israel's government is quasi-socialist to this day as a result of this.

GEM
October 4, 2004, 04:33 PM
If I didn't make it clear, I am one of the Jews who strongly believes and practices the RKBA.

It is case that American Jews bought into the global village of liberals that would protect them. In fact, many socially liberal ideas are congruent with my beliefs.

However, the socially liberal global paradigm is now for some reason identifying with the Islamic cause against the Jews. While their values on social issues is horrifying, they are seen as a 'noble' persecuted minority in the same vein as the African Americans in the USA or the blacks struggling against Apartheid in South Africa.

Thus, it proves that one cannot trust allies of the right or left if you are Jewish. When push comes to shove, you will have to fight for yourself.

In the past, some cultures have done the right thing - like the Danes in WWII, however, can you trust that you live in such a place. No!

Zundfolge
October 4, 2004, 04:37 PM
To most people "Conservative"="Right Wing" and at the end of the "Right Wing" is "Facism/Nazism".

Conservatives are gun owners and tend to be the ones who oppose gun control, not liberals (which are seen as farther away from "Right Wing").


Ergo ... gun owners are closer to Nazis then non-gun owners.




Seems pretty simple to me ... too bad they are so absolutely wrong (and their wrongness will get them and us non Jews loaded up on cattle cars)

BobCat
October 4, 2004, 05:35 PM
First - Sam Adams - thanks for your post. As another well-armed Jew who can't understand those who have learned *nothing* from history, I read your post with delight - at least some of which was at not having to try to formulate what you wrote that clearly, myself.

Cosmoline makes a very good point. There is a story about two Jews who were about to be shot by a firing squad. One of them started asking about a last cigarette, and a blindfold at least - the traditional things. His friend, hands already tied behind his back and ready to be shot, nudges him with his shoulder and hisses, "Quiet! Don't make trouble!"

People who appear threatening get "taken out" first. OTOH people who appear to be prey get eaten by predators. Those who do not want any trouble walk a fine line between appearing non-threatening and appearing to be easy meat.

Some people ask me why I like guns and shoot competitively (even though I am not high-scoring or high-ranking) - and end up with, "Well, who are you planning to shoot, anyway?" The answer is - "I'm not *planning* to shoot anyone! I don't plan on a flat tire, but I have a spare. I don't plan on a heart atack, but I take the recurring CPR training. I don't plan on a fire, but I have smoke alarms in my house, and extinguishers." Sometimes the message gets through, most times not.

Ever seen a frightened kitten hide? "My furry head is under the sofa cushion, so no one can see my furry butt sticking out." "If I don't have a gun, no one with a gun will come looking for me!" - same deal.

Purrrs,
BobCat
http://www.bayourifles.org
http://www.THSS.org

deputy tom
October 4, 2004, 11:09 PM
twoblink.here is the site that echo's the refrains " a twenty two for every Jew" and 'Never again".

http://www.jpfo.org/

And ,no before you ask,I'm a Christian.tom.:)

E36M3
October 4, 2004, 11:40 PM
I saw Mayor Koch speak tonight at a synagogue about his support of President Bush and the war on terror/war in Iraq. It was extraordinary and restored a lot of my faith in my peers. There were, of course, the sniveling whiner contingent there hell bent on heckling.
They were incoherent, whiny and sniveling and Mayor Koch just got in their faces. One response was: "You either didn't listen to my speech or I was incoherent".
It was pretty funny, but this war isn't funny at all. It's absolutely about our survival as a nation and I was very pleased at all of those in attendence who understand that this is the most important election of our lives; that we need to (and are) go after terrorists and the countries that harbor them; that we are the only nation standing up to terrorism; that Democrats don't have the stomach for what needs to be done; that every nations' intelligence dept. confirmed WMDs in Iraq and so on.
My point is that it would seem that many more Jews get "it" than we're given credit for. Maybe it's just a small sampling of us who are the pathetic, whiny, punk, elitists that give us all a bad name.
"Never Again" ain't just a river in Egypt.

DesertEagle613
October 5, 2004, 03:47 AM
Interesting story in the Talmud (I don't remember where). One of the greatest of the Sages was named Reish Lakish. Before becoming a scholar, he had been a bandit and gladiator. He returned to Judaism after waylaying Rav Yochanan, who would become his study partner.

At one point, a group of bandits kidnapped one of the Sages. (This was under the Roman occupation.) Rav Yochanan immediately began making plans for the funeral, but Reish Lakish pulled out his old weapons and said, "I will try to free [the kidnapped man... I forgot who]. They may kill me, or I may kill them, but in any event I will try."

He was successful.

MrMurphy
October 5, 2004, 08:07 AM
Not to mention, Samson whacked a thousand Philistines with a jawbone of a donkey and took down a temple with himself to get a few thousand more.....

And Shamgar whacked six hundred guys with an oxgoad (a large stick).


Not all Jews are wussies (but anyone who's seen the IDF knows that).

Sungun09
October 5, 2004, 09:18 AM
Yes, people have short memories. The phrases "History repeats itself" and "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." are valid because HUMAN NATURE is unchangeable

Rather than get into a discourse on this I will say that there will be other pogroms and dictators rising up.

I see no future for the unarmed. Better to have a gun and not need it than the alternative. For this reason I will NEVER be disarmed.

From a former anti-gunner...

Andrew Rothman
October 5, 2004, 12:20 PM
I also know that many of my friends and acquaintances at the shul (several of whom have IDF training, some of that in the special forces) carry on all of the major holidays, and that even the Rabbi has a CHL and practices regularly.

You just gotta love Texas Jews! :D

R.H. Lee
October 5, 2004, 12:25 PM
Also, jpfo (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) is a good resource. I used to be a member, even though I'm not Jewish. :p

Sam Adams
October 5, 2004, 03:17 PM
Thanks for your kind words. It is good to know that there are more than a few of us uppity Hebes out there - maybe those who dream of putting us in cattle cars will take notice and do nothing but dream about it.

People who appear threatening get "taken out" first.

True, if they can be found. OTOH, if those who appear threatening live up to their potential, then the tyrants and their helpers will get an express trip to meet their Maker. I hope to never need to use my guns for anything other than punching holes in paper, but if the need arises for other uses, I'll at least have a chance to be prepared - unlike the ghetto Jews that many of our brethren have always been.

The story about the 2 Jews about to be shot is very funny - because it so perfectly illustrates the attitude of the ghetto Jews.

"Well, who are you planning to shoot, anyway?"

I got almost the same question from one of my wife's cousins about a year ago. We live in Texas, and she and her husband came down here for a Bar Mitzvah of a different one of my wife's cousins. My wife picked her up at the airport, and on the way to the hotel the cousin made some wiseass comment like "How do you live here? Its like the Wild West with all of "these people" carrying guns!" My wife calmly asked her cousin if she still liked me, because I was one of "those people." Fast forward to later that day: As soon as we picked her up to go to dinner, I got asked, "So, what does a nice Jewish boy [I was 42-hardly a boy] need with a GUUUNNNN? Guns are only for killing people-why do you want to kill people?" I knew that I wasn't going to get anywhere, but I decided to calmly explain things, if only to show her that the stereotype of the hot-headed gun owner is false. After a 10 minute discussion (with at least 5 more repetitions of "Why do you want to kill people?"), we just decided to call it quits...but not before I let her know that I had owned guns for 15 years, had shot about 50,000 rounds of ammo and had several thousand at home to keep my dozen guns company - all without having even threatened to shoot someone. Of course, I didn't tell her that I was carrying at the time, because she'd have had an apoplectic attack :what: and despite her anti-gun stance, she was a nice lady (who has since, regretfully, died of cancer).

Sam Adams
October 5, 2004, 03:19 PM
You just gotta love Texas Jews!
I sure do - they are a HUGE improvement over the NY-area variety, at least in terms of politics and guns (well, most are - we have our share of ghetto Jews, but it is a far smaller percentage of the community than in the Peoples Republics).

alcmaeon
October 5, 2004, 03:36 PM
That women's organizations, the Pink Pistols, JFPO, etc. exist is little known. On Glock Talk - a significant portion denies that one can be socially liberal and for the RKBA. You have to be a right wing conservative or else.



I'm a liberal who is flabergasted that RKBA is NOT a liberal issue.

mustanger98
October 5, 2004, 07:59 PM
Not to mention, Samson whacked a thousand Philistines with a jawbone of a donkey and took down a temple with himself to get a few thousand more.....

And Shamgar whacked six hundred guys with an oxgoad (a large stick).

I recall Gideon too. And there was another guy who was there with, I think, King David IIRC when the battle was going badly because of rampant fear of the enemy's numbers- that guy, when everybody else was retreating, waded in and killed a really big number. And lived because God was supporting him. And the Israelites looked back and saw what was going on and ran back in to fight. I'll have to look it up and see just what the deal was.

Now, myself, I'm a Southerner and a Christian and I'd wondered about this issue of Liberal anti-gun Jews for a while. Ya'll's answers are making good sense to me. Oh, and my Grandpa was a WW2 vet who went in a Normandy and drove trucks and wreckers through the end of the war (and stayed on until 1950 driving trucks in Japan too).

In my opinion, gun ownership isn't a partisan issue, not a liberal/conservative issue. It's an issue of how bad do we want to live and be free. How much do we value our lives and our inalienable rights. Senator Zell Miller (D-GA), in his book A National Party No More, said we all have both liberal and conservative views and the purpose of politics is to balance the two. Senator Miller, a Democrat, said he's all for private gun ownership in a short chapter- all of two pages and I don't see how anybody could make it any plainer than how he said it. And he didn't address lines of ethicity, culture, or geography.

Double Naught Spy
October 5, 2004, 08:42 PM
More often than not in publicized tragedies, "Never Again!" seems to translate into something along the lines of , "Gee, that was really terrible, but I will cry NEVER AGAIN for a while to put on a good show of solidarity to reflect my outrage and then me and those with me will forget and get sidetracked and get it again." In other words, "Never Again!" seems to be the battle cry of current victims who will undoubtedly be future victims in some related fashion...

Jonestown - Mt. Carmel
Pearl Harbor - various military barracks - 9/11 - USS Cole (just how many times are we going to get caught off guard and then claim how surprised we were and then cry "Never Forget!"?)

I would not be terribly surprised that there are those of the Jewish faith out there who are not preoccupied with the "Never Again!" mantra. Just as quickly, folks, even those of a long term persecuted group, can forget.

Certainly, Jews are not unique in this manner. Americans are not unique in this manner.

twoblink
October 6, 2004, 02:18 AM
I was talking about guns to a Jewish friend, and he said "Gun? (actually, he said GUUUUNNNNS?? <insert raised eyebrow here>) What are you gonna do, rob a bank or 7-11? (Or as Kaylee calls it, the Stop-N-Rob)."

This pretty much makes me want to tell him "When SHTF, don't come knocking on my door to borrow a gun!!" (Which he, btw, did during 9-11)..

The double-speak, is just plain annoying...

I remember Heston said quite a few of his Hollywood friends called him up and wanted to borrow a gun on 9-11. Most were freaked out by the fact that you had to wait 10days in the PRK to buy a gun...

As for Liberalism.. How is it "The state has the guns, and you don't" Not a reflection of Hitlerism to the very core??

I prefer my other Jewish friends, who's got T-shirts that say something like "I know Ann Frank, and I don't want to be her. Jews with Guns."

Oleg Volk
October 6, 2004, 02:40 AM
Same goes for every other group. I bet the Taiwanese would have liked chance to keep the Nationalists out back in '49. I also bet that the Mainlanders would have liked a chance take some Japanese soldiers with them, when the reality offered only death by torture. Every country has such precedents.

geekWithA.45
October 6, 2004, 09:17 AM
slight sidebar:

A comeback for "Who do you plan to shoot?":

{point to spare in trunk of car} "Well, which tire do you plan to change?"

The Rabbi
October 6, 2004, 10:00 AM
Another of those imponderables.

I am Jewish, Orthodox, pro-RKBA, and anti-Kahane. That includes the "Never Again" nonsense.

If people thnk that the Nazis y'sh were responsible for the Holocaust then they better think again. It didnt just happen for no reason. The idea that we can avoid something similar just by carrying guns is ludicrous.
OTOH, we need to do whatever we can to be ready for situations. Carrying a gun for a population that is frequently targeted for violence simply makes good sense. Whether "it can happen here" or "it can't happen here" is true, it is irrelevant. But it is far more likely that I will have to face a mugger or burgler or just plain meshugana than I will have to face some organized force. The more assets you bring to any situation, the more likely you are to come out ahead. Skill with guns is just one more asset to have.

BobCat
October 6, 2004, 10:48 AM
Sam Adams

Your wife's cousin sounds like all too many of my family and friends "in the Old Country" - i.e. back North. As, I must add, like *me* thirty-some years ago. Having grown up in a sheltered place and never having experienced anything worse than shouted insults, thrown stones, and an occasional bloody nose - I was *sure* that (a/o WWII) the nazis were all gone, there were no truly evil people left, so there was no one to legitimately shoot. Guns were only for cops and robbers...

Anyway, on the "threatening" part - I did not express it properly. People who appear "threatening" are, by definition, perceived as threats; and threats get neutralized. OTOH people who appear "formidable" are less likely to be messed with.

There is a distinction between someone who is prone to violence - and should be avoided or de-clawed - and someone who does not want any trouble, but if attacked, will turn the attacker's heart and lungs to hamburger with hollow points. Appearing to be the latter, without seeming like the former, is a challenge.

People talk about the "gun culture" and I ask "Which one?" There is the traditional gun culture, which stresses individual responsibility, safety, and the duty to protect - self, family, community, people. Having a gun means being a trusted member of the community, an adult, shouldering adult responsibilities, and with enough self-control not to flip out and start shooting people at the drop of a hat (or insult).

OTOH there is the "popular gun culture" from TV - in which having a gun is seen as commanding fear or respect. Having the gun, and the willingness to use it with very little provocation, is what I think the sociologists call a "threat display" - it means the person is not to be messed with because he is so crazy and destructive that you could "set him off. It is a preemptive defense by puffing up (bottle-brush tail, fur standing up along the spine, prancing sideways on tiptoes, hissing - the Halloween Cat). A truly capable defender does not need to puff up.

I'm at a loss to explain why "Never Again" is merely a slogan to some Jews; and to others a heartfelt, solemn promise of return fire.

The Rabbi,

Thank you for bringing the discussion down to Earth. I do not see being armed as a sufficient defense against another pogrom - necessary yes, sufficient no. However, I do see being armed as influencing the cost:benefit calculation of anyone, thug or demagog, who wants my hide for a lampshade.

Purrrs,
BobCat
http://www.bayourifles.org
http://www.thss.org

GEM
October 6, 2004, 11:47 AM
Valentino, Benjamin A., Final solutions : mass killing and genocide in the twentieth century / Benjamin A. Valentino.

-----

Some folks have suggested that individual arms in the hands of an at risk group is not a deterrent to genocide.

I suggest that scholarship argues differently. The recent book above makes a clear case that while genocide has a large motivational component due to racial hatred, ethnic hatred, etc. , it also has a larger, pragmatic, economic and strategic value to the state proposing genocide. If the costs of genocide are cheaper, then it is a good solution.

The author clearly states in a scholarly (and this is NOT a gun loonie book), that resistance by the target population is clearly an important calculation. In many examples, he points out how the inability to resist is a crucial factor in preventing a genocide and how the pepertrators of genocide try to remove arms from the target group and men of military age.

Thus, for Jews (and others in America) portrayal of individual or armed group strength is an important message as it indicates that genocide will not be cheap.

We see some indications of this with the Koreans in the LA Riots. After the dragging death of the black man in Jasper, TX - African-American protesters in some groups made the clear case that blacks can be armed. Such demos nip in the bud the notion that genocide would be easy.

I thus propose that Jews is the USA need to make that statement. That does not mean we have to drop socially liberal values and buy into social conservative crappola. It does have to be demonstrated that as a group we will not just rely on the good will of the liberal left, the religious conservative right waiting for Armaggedon and/or the multicultural dance / diversity festival as our prime methods of defense against genocide.

LynnKCircle
October 6, 2004, 03:27 PM
Having read through the thread, here are a few more thoughts and responses from another Jewish Texan who's on the third renewal of his Texas CHL:

First of all, when Liberals were truly Liberals (as compared to the blind ideologues who today SAY they are liberal), RKBA WAS a liberal issue. During the late 1950's and most of the 1960's, Liberals were the ones who kept saying that poor minorities had as much a right to own firearms as any other American citizen. Conservatives, on the other hand, warned of chaos if "they" had guns. Jack Kennedy was an NRA life member. Charlton Heston was quite likely the FIRST Hollywood star to march alongside Martin Luther King. The first "Saturday Night special laws" were nothing other than weakly disguised attempts to remove reasonably-priced firearms from dealers' shelves with the purpose of keeping guns out of the hands of anyone except those with real money. Today's "liberals" are no more truly liberal than they are open-minded (a prerequisite of being a real liberal).

Secondly, I do not understand why so many American Jews have such a knee-jerk reaction against President Bush. President Bush has done as much if not more to support the existence of Israel than any American President before him. Yes, he can be truly criticized on other issues, but he's done the right thing where the rubber meets the road for American Jews. (OK, he's NOT a great President, and I think truly screwed the pooch on post-combat planning in Iraq. It looks to me as if Bush and Company evisioned Iraq as an analog to WWII France, with the Iraq National Congress taking the place of DeGaulle and the Free French. If so, they had their heads in the sand (or up another orifice). They should have looked to U.S. planning for the occupation of Japan BEFORE we dropped the bomb and BEFORE the Emperor told the Japanese people to peacefully accept American occupation. That approach would have saved a lot of American and Iraqi lives during the past twelve months.)

Thirdly, I used to agree with the view another poster presented, that Jews are primarily residents of large, liberal urban areas. But why, then, does the Houston Jewish Community Center forbid CHL holders from carrying on their property? Why did they not even deign to respond to my letter to them on that very topic? That's the one reason why I am still not a member.

All I can think is that American Jews are as likely to be willfully blind as any other group of idiots. When Buford Farrow went on his rampage in 1999, I thought American Jews and Californians would see it as a wake up call. Instead, all it did was seem to intensify the drive to limit or ban the private ownership of firearms.

Norman Mailer, a WWII Combat Marine and a New York Jew, made his most recent book into a propaganda piece for HCI, portraying gun owners as emotionally-immature racist crazies. I simply cannot comprehend what imbues an intelligent Jewish veteran like Mailer with such hatred of firearms owners that he sees us only through the distortions of hatemongering, without realizing that in so doing he, himself, has become a hatemonger.

How can American Jews blind themselves to the obvious reality that the only reason there are Jews alive in the free state of Israel today is because of firearms and the willingness of Israelis to use them in their own defense? How can American Jews blind themselves to the reality that the only protection they themselves have against violent racists, hatemongers, and bigots is a loaded gun and the training to use it at need?

Most American synagogues are nothing more and nothing less than an open invitation for Islamic terrorists to come and do slaughter. WHAT DO THEY THINK? DO THEY SUPPOSE THAT WHEN AL QAEDA FINALLY COMES TO TOWN, THEY'LL BE EXCUSED FROM SLAUGHTER BECAUSE THEY CAN SAY, "WE VOTED FOR CLINTON. WE VOTED FOR KERRY. WE VOTED AGAINST GUNS"?

It hasn't happened yet, but it will. Somewhere in the future, the terrorist leaders will realize that large, reformed, liberal American Jewish synagogues are the softest targets in the world. When it does happen,will these blind people open their eyes? Or will the survivors scream even louder for gun control?

Lynn K. Circle
NRA, TSRA, American Legion
(Yes, and I'm Jewish, too)

GEM
October 6, 2004, 03:55 PM
Great post - Lynn. From another transplant to TX - thanks.

I have folks look at me like I was crazy if I mentioned that I was an RKBA fan. Sigh.
:banghead:

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