[Shmackey]

I know you can't expect a ton of accuracy from a snubby, but are there any models that are known to be especially accurate?

[HSMITH]

Mechanically most quality snubbies are as accurate as anything you pick up, certainly the equal of service type handguns and better than most off the rack autoloaders.

I have a M37 Smith airweight that is quite a nice shooter, in my wobbly hands it will do less than 2 inches at 15 yards double action. 4 inches at 25 yards isn't all that hard with it rested either.

[CRridermike]

about 2 weeks ago my cousin and his wife got there consealed wepons permits and then went gun shopping. they came home with a short .357 ruger of some kind, a short .357 tarus of some sort and a .40 beretta couger. we went shooting the next day and they were really accurate. with the tarus i hit a squrril at about 20 yards which my have been luck but they shoot good for that short of barrel.

[Lone Star]

Theoretically, the most accurate small snub is probably the S&W Chief's Special with the rare target sights. They've never been catalogued but a number have been made over the years. Model 50, I think.

Go to a medium frame, and their M19 and M66 have been made in 2.5-inch barrel length. Ditto the M15.

The Colt Python in 2.5-inch length is larger, but superbly accurate. It does lose its cylinder timing sooner than the S&W mechanism, though.

Practically, if the fixed sights on a typical good "service" style snub are "on" for the load it likes best, you'll be astounded at how well some shoot...in the right hands!

Lone Star

[James Bondrock]

Snub revolvers are not inherently or mechanically inaccurate. They are harder to get good fast hits with because of poor sights, small grips and sharp recoil, especially the lightweight ones. Although larger and heavier, the Ruger SP101 and Colt Detective Special are easier to hit with.

[Catbird]

I'm NOT a big fan of Taurus revolvers because of quality control issues that I've experienced. Nevertheless, in all honesty, the three Taurus Total Titanium snubnosed revolvers that I own (.38spl, .357magnum, .45Colt) are quite a bit more accurate in my hands than my S&W J-frame and K-frame snubbies. I wish that wasn't the case, but it happens to be true.

[gunfan]

A Lew Horton S&W Model 610, 3" barrel.:neener: :cool:

[Marshall]

I have this S&W New Model 60 and it's surprisingly accurate, I'm very pleased.

The trigger is good, better than Rugers, which helps you squeeze off a better shot. At 22.5 ounces empty, it's a good combination between light and heavy and, when loaded up with .357's it's a bit heavier than with .38's. If you're recoil shy you'll want to shoot .38's, not that the 357's are terrible in it, they'll just let you know you're not shooting a popgun! ;) I would buy the gun again if choosing.

Smith's New Model 60 (http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293539&item=831394&sw_activeTab=1)


http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/userimages/162420_large.jpg

[stans]

I have a S&W 640-1, 357 Magnum, 2-1/8 inch barrel. Mechanically it is accurate, but the short sight radius, shallow rear sight notch and double action only trigger detract from my ability to get those 2-1/2 inch 25 yard groups that gun most likely could produce.

[walking arsenal]

ok

this is going to sound a little.............well read it and youll understand

my taurus .38 will do 22 inch groups at 300 yards.

i have the target to prove it, had to keep it, no one would believe it other wise.

that was 10 shots

300 yards

0 wind

lead cast semi wadcut bullets, not sure on the grn

at a 15 yrd IDPA rapid fire target

[bpisler]

I think snubby's with ajustable sights would be easier to get tight groups with than snubbys with fixed sights.My 2" S&W M-15 would do 2" at 25 yards from a rest with speer 125gr +P gold dots.My 3" 65-3 will put 6 rds of PMC starfire 357mags into 3" at 25 yards firing slow D/A.

[Standing Wolf]

The single most accurate of all my snub-nosed revolvers is my Detective Special. The sights leave a bit to be desired, but the gun itself is much more accurate than I expected.

[Dave Markowitz]

S&W Model 15-2, 2":

http://www.building-tux.com/images/Model15-2.jpg

This snubby is so accurate it's scary.

[22luvr]

It was my EAA Windicator budget-priced .38 spcl revolver! It had adjustable sights, great grips, 30 oz of weight and I never had to adjust the sights because the thing hit dead-on right out of the box.

Not only that, but the Windicator was easily the most ergonomically comfortable snubby I've ever owned.

Not bad for a gun that cost $159 NIB.

[Majic]

The Detective Special with it's larger grip frame usually is very accurate in most hands. My 2 1/2" Diamondback with the larger adjustable sights makes shooting the D-frame Colt accurately even easier.

[9mmepiphany]

in a "true" snubby...smith J-frame, colt D-frame, tarus 85, ruger sp...i've had the most acurracy with the colt detective special/diamondback. most likely because of their combination of bigger sights, longer grips and longer/smoother trigger pull. mechanical advantage of the colt D-frame consist of it's tighter lockup and faster rate of rifling.

in a medium/not too large frame, i'd say the mechanical advatage goes to the dan wesson because of it's combination of lockup at the crane and the barrel being under tension at both ends. my personal favorite is the colt python with it's butter smooth triger, solid lockup at sear release, faster rifling and choked barrel.

[BluesBear]

I think snubby's with ajustable sights would be easier to get tight groups with than snubbys with fixed sights. Nope.

Adjustable sights will just make it easier to align your point of impact with your point of aim.


Because of the increased sight radius, it can be easier to shoot a longer barrel more accurately. But that is the shooter's ability not the gun's accuracy.

As for accuracy of the shorter barrels. By using a Ranson Rest it has been shown time and time again that in many cases a 2" barrel revolver is just as and in some cases more accurate as the same model with a 6" barrel.

A S&W Model 36 will be just as accurate as a Model 50.
A S&W Model 10HB will be just as accurate as a Model 15.
A Colt Lawman will be just as accurate as a Colt Trooper.

All it takes is practice, practice, practice.

[Stainz]

My 2" M10-11, actually a 1/03 made product, was bought new 9/03. It broke-in to a great trigger - and, it is uncannily accurate. I can hit a 12" plate at 110yd once or twice out of a cylinderfull, after finding the 'drop'. I use my own reloads of 158gr LRN or LSWC over 3.5gr TiteGroup. It is even more accurate with the PD rounds I keep, Remington R38S12 158gr +P rated LHPSWC's. I attribute much of it's success to it's great trigger and mass, the required short sight base being it's main detriment - other than me, of course!

Stainz

[Gunmeister]

One of the most accurate, and grossly under rated, handguns I have ever owned was a Ruger Security Six with a 2.75" barrel. I guess you could call that a snubby even tho it is a rather large gun. It was heavy but well balanced. Out to 50 feet it was call the ten ring on every shot. Deadly accurate.

[russlate]

My 2&1/2" 19 has an insert in the front sight. Put a target on top of the front sight, align the top of the rear sight with the bottom of the insert, and you can keep 6 of 6 on a man sized silhouette at a hundred yards.

[Gunmeister]

6 of 6 on a man size target at 100 yards might almost qualify you for a military marksman medal using a rifle with open sights. That's extraordinary shooting offhand with a revo with a 2.5" barrel. I'd really have to see that done. Can anyone else top this?:rolleyes:

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

On a police range I have shot a Distinguished Expert score with three bullseyes up that day with my 2 inch 60 (without) target sights.

Fitz

Slow, timed and rapid fire and I fired the whole course rapid fire cause I felt I did not have a chance of qualifying. It shocked the rangemaster and me too so it just had to be instinctive shooting.

[walking arsenal]

Can anyone else top this?


I can, see previous post

[deputy tom]

Practical accuracy is in the hands of the user,not the gun it's self.Just about any firearm will have inherent accuracy when clamped in a Ransom Rest or a vise.That said I am most profecient with an S&W J-Frame.tom.

[HSMITH]

6 of 6 on a man size target at 100 yards might almost qualify you for a military marksman medal using a rifle with open sights. That's extraordinary shooting offhand with a revo with a 2.5" barrel. I'd really have to see that done. Can anyone else top this?

I've seen enough extraordinary things done with a handgun that I believe it. Ever seen a 4" 357 shoot sub 2" 6 shot groups at 100 yards? I have. Would have called you a liar had you told me about it until I saw it. I've seen a guy hit a basketball 11 of 12 shots at a hundred yards with an open sighted 4" 357 too, offhand shots for all 12. I've seen a bone stock Beretta 92 with military ball ammo hit a gallon paint can 10 of 10 shots at 75 meters, and hit a 55 gallon drum 4 of 10 shots at 200 meters. The guns are well capable, including snub nose types. All it takes to make it happen is a lot of skill and a little luck.

[Gunmeister]

WALKING ARSENAL at 300 yards (900 feet) I don't believe I could see the bullseye at that range let alone put 10 rounds on the paper. BTW you didn't say your barrel length, 10" maybe?
What I learned from this thread is that there are, in fact, three things that a man will embelish on, used to be only two, they are:
1. His car's gas mileage.
2. The sex he had last night.
3. And now--How accurate his snubby revo is at 300 yards. :D

HSMITH your stories are easier to buy because you are referrencing a revo with a 4" barrel which is a far more accurate gun than a 2" barrel revo. I own a 3rd edition (?), shrouded ejector rod, Colt Dick Special that fires way high and left at 7 yards and it doesn't matter who is shooting it, it really needs a new barrel but it's kept for sentimental reasons. It's a beautiful piece she just don't shoot straight.:(

[HSMITH]

John, I submit that barrel length is irrelevant to mechanical accuracy so long as the bullet is properly stabilized. Would you agree? Howard.

[Gunmeister]

Howard----- I would agree that-- longer barrel length = more rifling to act on the projectile = more bullet stabilization = greater accuracy.
So many different forces would be working on a .38 caliber bullet trying to hit a target out 900 feet. The greatest of these would be gravity. How could you figure trajectory and good old "Kentucky Windage" while firing a revolver freehand and constantly drop ten rounds in the paper.
Perhaps a dozen or two warmup shots to obtain a reference point of aim might help but I find it hard to believe that anyone could drop 10 consecutive rounds in a 22" group on a paper target out 900 feet while shooting a 2" barrel revolver freehand.
I'd have to see it done to believe it.

[Majic]

Well I'm not any kind of great handgun shooter, but several of my firends and myself have shot 10" steel gongs at 300 yards with 6" and 7" magnums of various sorts with a standing 2 handed hold. It only takes a full cylinder to get the range, then two hits a cylinder was about average for us. So I say it may not be all that difficult for a good shooter using a snub that they shoot well to make the 22" group at that distance.
Give it a try if you ever get a chance. You might surprise yourself at what you can do at long ranges.

*Hint* shoot when there has been a dry spell as the dust from bullet impact well give you a reference for aiming.

[Gunmeister]

Pretty sure I could get close with a 6 or 7 inch .357 or .41 Magnum but not with a 2 inch .38.

[Majic]

The snub .38sp just means you have to hold higher for elevation and concentrate harder on sight alignment. Certainly nothing that's impossible.

[Gunmeister]

Duh!!
But at 900feet, come on. :banghead:

[R.H. Lee]

Adjustable sights on a snubby are a liability, IMO. A heavier bullet will hit higher than point of aim on a 2 incher. With both my Taurus 85 and Smith 642, I've found that a 125-135 gr bullet shoots right to the point of aim.

[Majic]

But at 900feet, come on.
Have you ever tried shooting a handgun at that range?

[Gunmeister]

Why waste the ammo? What useful purpose does it serve? I've owned and carried handguns for 55 of my 68 years, including 32 of those years on active duty in the military. Three of those years behind a .50 cal in a search and rescue Huey helicopter during two tours in Viet Nam. I'm no stranger to firearms but I can honestly say I have never tried to ring a bell with a .38 snubby at 300yards. ---- Why would you?

Hey guys, I'm not trying to to Flame you up, I'm just stating my opinion to which I'm entitled. I'm not trying to tick anyone off so I'll back out of this thread. See ya.:(

[RON in PA]

A few years back did some plinking at clay pigeons at 50 yards with my Smith 640-1. It's amazing that shooting offhand at that distance you can actually hit a high per centage of the targets once you have the right holdover figured out.

But so what, it's an interesting and fun stunt that has no relation to what you use a snubbie for in the real world where a snubbie is used at 7 yards and under.

If you go to the S&W home page they have a downloadable revolver manual. On the next to the last page they list the accuracy of revolvers with less than 3" barrels. The testing was done using a rest and was based on a random selection of revolvers. They state that owners may find the accuracy of their own revovers to be superior.

7 yards-1.7 inches
14 yards-3.9 inches
21 yards-6.3 inches

[Majic]

Why waste the ammo?
A matter of perspective I guess. Some shooters see shooting as fun and trying to hit a target no matter how far or how small as not a waste, but a challenge.
I think the concept of the snubby has been skewed over time. It's still the same basic handgun as it's longer barreled version. The shortened barrel doesn't diminish it's accuracy or limit it's range, but it does aid in concealment. The self defence range of 7 yards applies to any handgun used no matter the barrel length and not all self defence guns are carried concealed or even carried at all.
I'm not flaming, but just expressing that the snubs shouldn't be veiwed as having limitations. They are far superior than a lot of people will give them credit for and will prove it if given a chance. Move those targets further downrange and concentrate on the shot. That little snub may just surprise you. ;)

[Ala Dan]

Well let's see here, how about my old S&W model 60?

I've qualified her several times on a 60 round police course!
Does that count?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[BluesBear]

I would agree that-- longer barrel length = more rifling to act on the projectile = more bullet stabilization = greater accuracy. While on the surface that may seem the obvious logical rationale, it isn't.

Onece the rifling has achieved a good grip on the bullet then the proper stabilization will occur.
What can and often does happen to affect accuracy is the less complete combustion of the powder charge from the shorter barrel which will affect velocity which in turn will affect the physical accuracy at longer ranges.
A slower bullet will drop more at a long range than a faster bullet will at the same range.
This will happen with any barrel length but if is often more pronounced with shorter barrels.

One of the key factors in accurate ammunition of consistency of velocity. The lower the velocity spread the more accurate that loading will be.

***********************

As for the claim that one of our members shot a 10 shot, 22" group at 300 yards with a Taurus .38.

I believe it happened. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

I may not agree with everything that Walking Arsenal has ever said but I have never observed any indications that he's a liar.

Even when you use a nice, polite word such as "embelish" and follow it with a smiley face, it's still tanamount to calling someone a liar.
And we don't do that here without a really good reason.

[Gunmeister]

BLUESBEAR-- The word "liar" is your word not mine. The post I submitted where the word "embellish" is used, was in fact, meant in a light hearted manner. You decided that what I said was demeening and interpreted as though I was calling him a liar. Not so! Then you unilaterally decided that I needed a lecture. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to over react.
Read and learn:
Lie--- (Your word) A false statement or piece of information deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. Anything meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Embellish---(My word) To make more beautiful, as by ornamentation; to adorn. To add fanciful details to a statement or narrative.
At no time did I call the gentleman a liar! Again sir, that is your word and not mine, and I resent the implication.
In your signature block you quote " The Bill Of Rights is like the Ten Commandments, you can't pick and choose you gotta take 'em all or nothing."
What about my right to free speech? Are you telling me that on THR a member, yes I'm a member, has no right to speak his or her mind or to disagree with statements that are made? One of the great things about our Constitution is that it gives all citizens the right to disagree and to speak their mind. The fact that I choose to disagree with the statements in the gentleman's post is my right and simply my opinion, to which I am entitled, nothing else implied.

My intent was not to hurt anyones feelings and if I did, I sincerely apologize.

[walking arsenal]

"At no time did I call the gentleman a liar!"

aaaaaaawww, he called me a gentleman. (chokes up)


"WALKING ARSENAL at 300 yards (900 feet) I don't believe I could see the bullseye at that range let alone put 10 rounds on the paper. BTW you didn't say your barrel length, 10" maybe?"

2" barrel

And your right, i couldnt see the bullseye, i was just shooting at the big white sheet of paper and lobbing the bullet in a big ass arc. I was just doing it for fun, i fired the first round and heard a bullet on target "WACK!". I thought to myself "I didnt actually hit that, did i?" so i tried 9 more rounds.
When i got the target, there was ten little holes in it, some looked like they had keyholed and they were all over the map but there they were none the less, more than a few were near misses ill admit, just a hair shy of missing the paper. The bullets took their sweet time getting there too.

i said 22 inches cause i think thats about the width of the target, just a guestimate.

im going to go and try and find the target this afternoon and a scanner to scan it with. Then i'll try and post a picture (never done this before so dont hold yer breath) of the target so my credibility is no longer questioned.

sorry guys, im standing by this one

[Marshall]

I won't call you a liar W.A.

But, if I was in Deluth, I would lay down five One Hundred dollar bills, give you 15 rounds of 38's and bet you couldn't put 10 of them on a 22" piece of paper at 300 yards with a 2" snubby. I would feel extremely confident in keeping my five hunded dollars too. :neener:

[Sport45]

I believe you WA. But do you think you could do it again? What will impress me is if you have a scanner that can take a 22" target in one pass.:eek:

[Sport45]

I believe you WA. But do you think you could do it again? What will impress me is if you have a scanner that can take a 22" target in one pass.:eek:

[Gunmeister]

W.A. Sorry I called you a gentleman, must have been the first time anyone called you that if it choked you up.
I would offer the same wager as MARSHALL and also feel sure I would come home with my 5 c-notes.
Don't bother with the scanned picture, that won't prove a thing. I could sit at my desk and punch ten holes in a piece of 22" paper with a pencil.
I don't disbelieve you entirely, as I said, I believe you may have embellished the facts slightly. Did it take you all afternoon and 100 rounds to get ten in the paper? I don't know, I wasn't there.
BTW in addition to a very accurate Taurus snubby and sharp eyes you must have a keen sense of hearing to hear a .38 slug "Whack" a piece of paper 900 feet away.
Again, I apologize if I hurt your feelings but if I'm ever up your way, I'll have to see it to believe it and I'll bring $500 and 15 rounds of the best .38spl ammo I can find.

[IndianaDean]

I have a Taurus 850 snubnose. (the only non Ruger/S&W revolver in my collection, and at self defense distance (12 to 15 feet) it is just as accurate as my larger Smiths and the gp100 I have.

[walking arsenal]

sport45:

jeez good point with that scanner, never thought about that, can you scan sections and paste them together on computer somhow? im no computer wiz, posting on this sight is about the extent of my computer skills.

marshall, gunmeister: Dunno if i could do it it again as im sure it was a fluke, right wind, alignment of the planets etc etc. BUT i'd be willing to try it again if it'd suit ya. dunno how i could prove it though, seeing as gunmeister unveiled my secret of punching holes in a target with a sharpy.

dunno about the keen eyes, i shoot pistols and shotgun for defense mainly cause i cant see past 50 yrds without glasses.

i guess i dont see why you couldnt hear a slug hit a target that far away, it makes a pretty solid wack sound (shrugs) maybe it's just me.

anyhoo, enough of this stuff, back to most acurate snubby

[BluesBear]

Where do you get the idea that you have freedom of speech on THR? :scrutiny:


It doesn't matter what terminology you use.

toe-may-toe

toe-mah-toe

:rolleyes:


And it's not about whether he could do it again, it's whether he did it at all.
Has he claimed he could do it again?

If you don't believe his story, then you must be thinking he's lying about it.
It doesn't matter what terminology you use.

If you can hear a bullet hit a steel plate why couldn't you be able to hear it hitting a backstop (probably wooden) 900ft away? Especially on a day with calm or no winds. It would take it about 2-3 seconds for a .38 bullet to reach the target and over ½ second for the sound to get back to the firing line.

I know for a fact you can hear a .22 Long Rifle round hit a wooden nail keg at 100 yards.


Back during the Iran Hostage Crisis (1980) I had a few* of those horribly offensive "Miss Lillian's Practice Target"s. You might remember those? They were prduced by The Dutchman and featured the face of the Ayatollah Khomeini in the center. Boy those sure were offensive.


At 25 yards, from a cut down Marlin Model 42 "trench gun" I fired a load of Remington 000 Buck at one of those targets to see how it patterned.
There was a single pellet in the center of each eye, one right in the nose as well as two touching holes on the lips (one was on the top lip and the other on the bottom lip). The other three were scattered over the rest of the face.

Could I do it again? Hell no!™ But I did it once. At the range. In front of several witnesses. One of whom was my boss. It hung on the wall of the shop for almost a year.





*a few thousand that is
I sold enpugh of those to pay for a Brand new in the box blued Colt Sheriff's Model Convertable.

[Gunmeister]

BLUES- You know a little Willie Shakespeare, good for you.
The man said he was shooting at paper, not wood or metal. If he had said he was using a wood or metal backstop I would not have questioned his ability to hear the bullet hit but he didn't say that, he said paper. BTW if it takes a .38 bullet 3 seconds to go 900 feet that's a slow moving 300fps.
Again you keep bring up the "lie" word, remember, you said that-- not me.
If you are telling me there is no freedom of speech on THR, I'd like to hear that from the administrator, webmaster or moderator at which time I'll cancel my membership. I don't care to hear it from you.

I've grown weary of your rhetorical comments and won't respond to any in the future, have a nice day.:)

[BluesBear]

Read THIS and weep. (http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html)
You can focus your attention to the part ½ way down the page, subtitled, "A note on FREE SPEECH"



I will take full responisibility for the words I use for yes sir ideed it was I who used first used the "lie" words.
But then again I was just saying what you were insinuating.
Please don't critiquie me for using the words you didn't have the stuggats to use.
And perhaos it would play better in Poughkeepsie if you didn't try to be so droll when you attempt to reduce it down to a question of semantics.
After all if I were to say that, in my not so humble opinion, perhaps a better screen name for you would be ":" I am sure you could get my drift. But then again...


:neener:

[Gunmeister]

Correction: YOU were saying what YOU thought I was insinuating, which simply was not true. YOU have no way of reading MY thoughts.
I invite you to read your own reference but you may dispense with the weeping.
Rule #4: States, in part. " You may disagree with other members even vehemently, but it must be done in a well mannered form." I sincerely believe that I abided by that rule ( I didn't even use an ill-mannered Neener Smiley).
I have no idea why you have launched such a tirade against my postings when, if fact, all fell within the rules as outlined in your reference.
I guess you felt an overwhelming need to pontificate and I hope that this need has been satisfied for you. I can tell by your last posting that you are becoming increasingly agitated so I shall take this opportunity to once again say, have a nice day :) (a well-mannered smiley.)

I couldn't find "Stuggats" in my dictionary, you know that's the book that outlines how words are spelled and what they mean. Could you explain what a "stuggat" is in well mannered, non- offensive terminology?

Oh yeah, what's a ":" ?

[BluesBear]

You are correct that I have no way of reading your thoughts.
Therefor I have only the words that eminate from your keyboard and reappear on my screen. My responses have been based on those words alone.

I stand by my interpretations.

While your military record is honorable and even may be commendable. I am even confident that, unlike another John, who also served in Viet Nam, your acomplishments have not been embellished.
I have known many career military men who really didn't know diddley squat about firearms. In fact most of the Viet Nam vets I have encountered are full of more mis-information about guns than the million mommy marchers.
So forgive me if I don't assume that 55 years of owning a handgun nor 27 years of active duty impart any special knowledge or skills.

I guess that 3 years behind a Huey mounted MaDuce you could lead you to assume that anyone shooting a .38 snub at 300 yards woud just hang the target out in mid-air without any backing or support.
I can even see where you would assume that those 10 lucky shots were fired offhand. (BTW M2s ROCK. When shooting at the enemy if you didn't kill 'em you at least wrecked 'em)

So it's not exactly a long leap to understand why you would assume I was "becoming increasingly agitated".

You need to be more careful when you assume. You before me and all that.

I am not agitated in the least.
You said what you said. Period. It's there for all to read and interpret.

I never nemtioned rule #4. Did someone else direct you there? As you can see it wasn't I. Like the afformentioned other John you have chosen to avoid certain areas and concentrate on misdirection. Oh well, if that's your style go with it.

I have not as you stated "launched such a tirade against (your) postings ".
I have merely offered rebuttal to your original tirade against another members postings.

It's just one of my character flaws. Perhaps someday I shall cease tilting at windbags.

Y'all have a good day and play nice.
Perhaps this thread can now get back on topic.



edited to add;
Excuse me I really need to proofread closer.
First I mistype my, off the top of the head-wee hours of the morning, math calculations and now this...
What I meant to say above was "Perhaps someday I shall cease tilting at windmills."
<sigh> I guess today ain't that day.

[Gunmeister]

BLUESBEAR--- I would like to put this to rest.
In all honesty I did enjoy the debate. You were a gentleman and I like to think I was also. I hope there are no hard feelings on your end and I can truthfully say there are none on this end. I respect you for sticking up for W.A. and for not backing down on what you believe.
I don't know what your medical problems were but I sincerely hope you are recovering more each day and I wish you nothing but good luck in your recovery process. I genuinely hope that my sometimes sarcastic approach didn't aggrevate your problems.
Common, admit it. It was kinda fun wasn't it?
Oh BTW whats a stuggat? (LOL) Don't bother, I think I know but I really don't know what a ":" is.
From one windbag to another, really-----have a nice day. :) :) :) :neener:

[walking arsenal]

err, sorry, i should have mentioned earlier, the traget was a stapled to a plywood backstop. I guess i thought that was just a given.:o

And my apologies to majic for hi-jackin this thread with my comment.

Sorry ol'chap, wont happen again.

[pax]

I think there's some dead-horse beating going on here.

If y'all have any new points to make, feel free to make them.

But no more trading insults, you hear?

Next time I'll tell you to kiss and make up. ;)

pax

I thoroughly disapprove of duels. I consider them unwise, and I know they are dangerous. Also, sinful. If a man should challenge me now, I would go to that man and take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot, and kill him. -- Mark Twain

[BluesBear]

Hard feelings? Over this?

This is only so many electrons floating through wires and air.

This is not life or death.

I think everyone has made their points and once again we have proven we can agree to disagree without turning into Spriggers*.

Anywhere else ths would have turned truely nasty. A few lines may have been crossed here on both sides, but I think we remained gentlemen and all will be fine in the long run.

My compliments to you Gunmeister for being able to take as you give.
Far from agravating my condition it has immeasureably boosted my morale.



******************************************
*Sprigger n. ('spri-ger) a person of a class even too low to appear on the Jerry Springer show.
see also: Springabe
see also: MoPoMoFo

Springabe n. ('spren-ga-be) A person whose highest ambition in life is to appear on The Jerry Springer Show.

Spranger n. ('spra[ng]-er) Person who already appeared on The Jerry Springer Show.

Springer Ringer n. (spri[ng]-&r-'ri[ng]-&r) A man dressed as a woman who has brought a clueless boyfriend to The Jerry Springer Show to confess that she is really a he. Also know as a Jerry-Fairy.

Jerry-rigged n. ('jer-E-'rig&d) What a Springer Ringer does to conceal his naughty parts from the cluless boyfriend.


aw what the heck... while we're about it...

(carefully observe the location of the following accent marks. Pronounciation is critical for proper street rep.)
After all you do not want to be thought of as "Dumber than a MoFo"


MoPoMoFo n. (mo-po-'mo-fo) A man appearing on the Maury Povitch Show for a DNA test to prove or disprove the successful procreation with a MoPoHo.

MoPoHo n. (mo-'po-ho) A woman who drags a man or men onto the Maury Povich Show in an attempt to discern who her Babydaddy is.

MoPoMoHo n. (mo-po-'mo-ho) a MoPoHo with more than three MoPoMoFos

MoPoMoFoHo n. (mo-po-'mo-fo-ho) The current girlfriend of a man appearing on The Maury Show for a DNA test

MoPoMoFoBro n. (mo-po-'mo-fo-bro) Best friend of a man appearing on The Maury Show who appears to testify of the low character of the MoPoHo who brought them there. Quite often he is also there to be DNA tested.

MoPoMoFoOhNo n. (mo-po-'mo-fo-o-no) A man appearing on The Maury Show who learns he is NOT the Father.

MoPoMoFoFoSho n. (mo-po-'mo-fo-fo-sho) A man appearing on The Maury Show who is informed that he IS the Father.

MoPoHoJo n. (mo-po-'ho-jo) Hotel where guests and groupies of The Maury Show stay.

MoPoHoJoHo n. (mo-po-ho-jo-'ho) Woman hired by the Maury Show staff to secretly trap and video the misconduct of MoPoMoFo in the MoPoHoJo the night befo.

Babydaddy n. (bA-bE-'da-dE) Amature sperm donor. Encountered daily on Jerry Springer, Maury Povich, Ricki Lake, Jenny Jones and your local DSHS office.


BluesBear n. ('bluz-bear) A sick twisted individual with way too much time on his hands. :neener:

All of the above sniglet definitions are from BluesBear's Real World Dictionary ©2004 BearHugg Productions



etided fro speeling
I really must refrain from posting 30 minutes after meds time.
I wonder if it's the MSContin or the OxyCodone that make the keys move around?

[Majic]

Hey, I felt no hard feelings from anyone. Just a lively debate with people of different views. I too am sorry if I offended anyone.

I still say the Colt D-frame is the most accurate snubby. :neener: :D

[grendelbane]

Am I too late to brag about my old 3" Charter Arms, which was way more accurate than it had any right to be?

In a moment of temporary insanity, I sold it.

I won a few bets with it, concerning quart oil cans at 50 yards. I had to hit it 3 out of 5 times to win. I lost a few times, but won much more than I lost.

There are two requirements for long range snub shooting. Sights that can be aligned on something. (It does not have to be the target), and consistency, (In grip, ammunition, wind conditions, yes, even the angle of the Sun).

I have fired quite a few 2" .38s, and I have been surprized by the accuracy of several of them. I always wanted to mount a scope on a 2" .38 Special just to see how well it would really do.

[Catbird]

quart oil cans
Oil used to come in cans????? (just teasin')

[grendelbane]

Oil used to come in cans?????

Yes!!!!!!:fire: Oil used to come in cans. Back then, I had eyesight, also. I probably could not duplicate the feat today.

Sadly, there are a couple of other things that have also deteriorated since that time. Fortunately, :p , they don't interfere with my marksmanship.

[Zebulon]

Smith and Wesson 2" Model 15 Combat Masterpiece, .38 Special. Zebulon

[colubrid]

enjoyed the debate. Wish there were more threads like this.

[io333]

Once upon a time, long ago, I was at an range in California in the foothills south of San Francisco. I was shooting a rifle at 100 yards, and my friend had a Ruger MKII .22 pistol along. It was the standard model, blue, with the 4" tapered barrel.


Just for fun, I thought I try & see if I could hit a paper target even once.

I had no idea what the bullet drop would be, so I just held what I guessed to be about a foot over the target. There was nothing behind/over the target for me to use as a reference point, so I would sight in at the target, and then move the sights up a bit to what seemed like a foot (as you probably know, this totally obscures the target), let off a round, and then repeated for the remainder of the 10 round magazine.

I doubted that I would even hit the paper once.

When I walked up to the target, there was a 6 inch group of 10 rounds. I was stunned then, and have been to this day -- because I wasn't really aiming at anything, just guessing... and especially since half the time I can't even do that well with an open sighted rifle.

I don't know whether it was luck, or that the MKII is a rediculously accurate pistol, but it happened.

[russlate]

Have to disagree on adjustable sights on snubbies.

1) adjustable sights tend to be better squared off making it easier to maintain a consistent sight picture.

2) adjustable sights let you keep shooting various brands of ammo which will eliminate 9 loads of 12. The other 3 you redo groupings and make a decision based on more extensive shooting. The you center the sights for the best grouping load.

My 2&1/2" M19 has a front sight insert installed with the bottom of the insert marking the amount of holdover needed to drop the best groupng load into the bull at 100 yards see diagram that follows: _[-]_ lower lines indicat the top of the rear blade. The center indicates the front sight with a marking partway down. Put the lower line even with the top of the rear blade. Perch the head of the combat silhouette on top of the front sight. Shoot and repeat till you can repeatedly hit 6 of 6 from rollover prone.

Simple right? Any anything simple is hard. When you know your shooting can dominate a situation out to 100 yards you achieved a state where anyone attacking you by surpise is in greater from you than you are from him.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

As a retired Police Firearms Instructor a snubbie is a concealable weapon for officers on or off duty and are to be fired at a torso area if the humans are close enough to be an imminent threat. PERIOD

[russlate]

Putting them all in a single hole at 7 yards is easier when you practice hittng from zero yards to 100 yards.

[Majic]

As a retired Police Firearms Instructor a snubbie is a concealable weapon for officers on or off duty and are to be fired at a torso area if the humans are close enough to be an imminent threat. PERIOD
Then why were there snub nose Colt SAA back in the 19th century? The sheriffs certainly didn't carry them.

[JPM70535]

The notion that Snubbys are inherently inaccurate, or only good for close in work is totally wrong.

I have told this before, but it bears repeating. Back in the Stone Age, pistol qualification courses consisted of 60 rounds fired at distances of 7 to 50 yards, with 24 rounds being fired from 50 yards. It didn't matter if you were shooting your Service Revolver or your backup Snubby, the minimum qualifying score was IIRC, 275 out of 300. Scores achieved by most of those who qualified was in the 280s. My average score was in the mid 290s, and several others topped that.

It's been a long time but I believe the holdover at 50 yards to hit CM was the head-neckarea.

One last tidbit, Bob Munden of American Shooter used a chief Special to hit targets out to 300 yards.

Not that I would, but if it was all I had, I wouldn't be averse to takng a 100 yard shot with my mod 649

[Catbird]

I have told this before, but it bears repeating. Back in the Stone Age, pistol qualification courses consisted of 60 rounds fired at distances of 7 to 50 yards, with 24 rounds being fired from 50 yards. It didn't matter if you were shooting your Service Revolver or your backup Snubby, the minimum qualifying score was IIRC, 275 out of 300. Scores achieved by most of those who qualified was in the 280s. My average score was in the mid 290s, and several others topped that.
Was all of this performed double-action, single-action or a combination?
(I don't think I could hit anything DA @ 50 yds. unless just a fluke.)

[9mmepiphany]

back when i was shooting PPC, with a wheelgun, you had the option of going SA or DA at 50 yards. all the hotshoes shot DA...SA was for newbies

[J.M.]

This will probably trash my rep as a lurker here, but...

...all of you who doubt these accuracy statements being possible, obviously haven't tried ANY handgun shooting at these ranges. I believe them, because I've seen similar acts many times. I've performed similar acts a few times...

...don't bother naysaying unless you've tried it. - JM.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

Back in the 60's we did not have as many bad dudes needing to be hit with the highest velocity hollow point bullets available.

While out searching for sidewinder snakes in the Mojave desert I had 38 special target wad cutters in my Smith 5 shot snubbie and came across a coyote ambling along at about 120 yards parallel to my path. He looked in my direction from hearing me and I wondered what my target load would do so I pointed my pistol up a few degrees and fired. The wadcutter hit several feet before getting to him and he stopped and looked at it while it rolled end over end and stopped between his legs. He sniffed it and then continued his leisurely walk.

Fitz

[MrPhil]

This is a very informative and entertaining thread. You all have persuaded me to try some long range shooting with hand guns.
The only snubby I have is a S&W Model 38 (Airweight j-frame w/ shrouded hammer). I bought it (used) a couple weeks ago and have put a few of my 158 gr SWC's through it. Max range was 10 yds. Single action, it shot to point of aim. DA it grouped 4 " high and right. I'm a lefty and expected LOW and right. I don't have this problem with my other revolvers (K, L, & N frames). Any thoughts?

[dogngun]

I have been shooting short barrel revolvers for about 30 years, mostly Smiths, sometimes a Colt Det Spl. The key to shooting these guns well is practice (big surprise). Go back to basics, and you will learn to shoot a 2" revolver well. You will also become a better shot with whatever else you shoot no matter what barrel length.

I now have a 2 1/2" model 19 with adjustable sights (I'm too old to see the front sight on a fixed sight 2" gun.) It's a great shooter and carry gun.

Mark

[BluesBear]

MrPhil,

It's probably because that particular revolver sits differently in your hand.

It soulnd like you have too much trigger finger pulling the gun to the right with a slight wrist problem, possibly because of the shroud allowing the gun to sit lower in your hand.

Hopefully this correction target will help.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1034938

[MrPhil]

Thanks BB. That target came to mind. A local range has these for sale. I'll pick one up and do a little trouble shooting. I think you have a point about my grip being changed. Mostly, I think its how small the grip is. Really small compared to everything else I shoot.