They are so darned expensive. I think around $1200 for the low end model.
I am not aware of a SIG P210 clone. The closest thing I know is the CZ-75 single action. Anyone aware of a clone of the great P210 that does not cost an arm and a leg.
It would have to be slim, very accurate, in the frame slide rails, and single action. Yea, I know, I just described the P210.
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February 23, 2003, 08:45 PM
A CZ-75SA fills your requirement list and will cost you a third of what a low-end P210 goes for these days. I concede that the P210 is a fine and accurate pistol, but it's not that much finer or more accurate than anything else to warrant such a sticker price.
Someone I know calls the P210 a "Gold Cup Tokarev". :D
February 23, 2003, 08:52 PM
Hey, if you buy one, think of all the money you'll save from not trying to find the right alterative! :evil: Life's too short, buy the one you want from the git-go ;)
February 23, 2003, 08:55 PM
10-Ring hit the nail on the head.
February 23, 2003, 09:08 PM
You aren't going to find a off-the-shelf 9x19mm gun that is anywhere near as good as a SIG P210. CZs are nice, but gimme a break, a P210 makes a P7 look crude as hell by comparison. You might as well compare a P7 to a Bersa or something because they both have fixed barrels. Of course, nobody "needs" a gun that nice. But calling it a "Gold Cup Tokarev" is just imbecillic. You might as well call a Mercedes a tarted-up Yugo because they both have four wheels. :rolleyes:
February 23, 2003, 09:13 PM
Very well said 10-Ring.
February 23, 2003, 09:19 PM
Get the real deal, then post here so we can live vicariously.
Stephen A. Camp
February 23, 2003, 10:00 PM
Hello. Maybe it'll be of interest and/or help.
Hello. I'll admit being a real fan of the 9x19mm round and have probably more handguns chambered in that caliber than any other. Though I am also a strong devotee of the .45 ACP, there's just something about the 9mm that I like.
Some years ago, I bought a SIG P210-6 complete with the .22lr slide/bbl conversion. Today's report concerns only the 9mm "version" of the pistol.
It's interesting to note that 20 years ago, I owned a P210-6, BUT at that time that designation referred to the adjustable sight version unlike the fixed sight pistol it is stamped on today!
The Pistol: The pistol used in this report is stock. There has been no gunsmithing or customization whatsoever. Normally, I use a different set of wooden stocks that were advertised as "Danish Police Grips" at CDNN a year or so ago. They're thicker and rough textured and more comfortable for me. The stocks shown and used today are the ones that came on the pistol.
I find no decernible play, either vertical or lateral in the slide-to-frame fit. The trigger's estimated at 3lbs or less and very, very clean. The trigger face is smooth and the trigger, slide stop, and hammer appear hardchromed.
As mentioned, the sights are fixed and they are somewhat smallish. The front sight is serrated nicely and dovetailed into the slide. The rear sight has a "U-"shaped notch, but the curved bottom of the "U" causes no problems. Still, I'd prefer it be squared at the bottom. The thumb safety sets forward of where most are used to and I find it less convenient than that on the Browning HP or the 1911.
You can also see the more forward positioning of the thumb safety as well as the reversed "inside rails" of the P210, a trait that the CZ line of pistols use now as well.
The pistol has a single-stack 8-shot magazine and does have a magazine "safety."
The magazine's held by a spring-formed release located at the bottom of the grip. Unlike some similarly equipped pistols like the HK P7, this one does NOT allow for just being pushed forward and allowing the magazine to fall; the magazine must be pulled from the grip. (For what these overpriced magazines cost, I don't mind.)
The 4.73" bbl is very smooth on both the exterior and interior as clean-up's very easy. IF memory serves, the twist is a bit faster than the usual European 1:10 at 1:9.
This pistol's interior is machined more smoothly than the exterior of many pistols!
In short, the gun's very well-made and the hammer's lightened via cut out areas on the rear of the hammer shank and on the bottom of the spur.
There were some handloads as well as factory rounds fired through this pistol today. I was checking accuracy on some of the handloads and picked the factory rounds as being those often used by folks shooting 9mm pistols. The velocity figures shown are the average 10-shot velocity for that particular round fired from the SIG P210 pistol.
Winchester USA 115 gr FMJ (1242 ft/sec)*
*This is about 100 ft/sec hotter than normal for this round, but it's been quite a while since I chronographed any new USA ball. I don't know if the gun's justing shooting it faster or if it's loaded hotter now. There are no Nato or +P markings on the cases.
Remington 115 gr JHP +P (1291 ft/sec)
Federal 115 gr JHP (9BP) (1173 ft/sec)
Rucker 122 gr CFP
6.9 gr Blue Dot
New Starline Cases
Rucker 122 gr CFP (Moly-coated)
Same as above.
Rainier 124 gr PRN
Same as above.
Hornady 115 gr JHP (Some old, "Pre-XTP" bullets I had)
6.2 gr Unique
Federal SP primer
Hornady 124 gr XTP
6.0 gr Unique
Federal SP primer
Of the handloaded rounds using Unique, this bullet seems to get more ft/sec per grain of powder than either the 115 gr or Speer 124 gr.
Speer 124 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point
Same as above.
**Note the 111 ft/sec difference in the average speeds of the same weight, but different brand bullets using the same load.
Stephen A. Camp
February 23, 2003, 10:04 PM
Shooting: I cheated on today's testing. Since the P210's considered a very accurate pistol, I fired all groups except those at 15 yards from a rest, using a two-handed hold. The 15 yard groups were fired standing w/2-hand hold. There is still much human error in these groups.
I did a few more at 25 yards today since this distance will be a pretty common one for most folks to shoot targets.
Stephen A. Camp
February 23, 2003, 10:06 PM
50 Yards: These groups consist of 15 shots each.
Fired with the Hornady 124 gr XTP handload....
Fired with Winchester 115 gr Ball....
Observations: The pistol is very well-made and is very smooth in its operation. The slide is soooooooo smooth in its operation. The pistol's accurate, much more so than this shooter can wring out of it.
So is it worth the high price one pays to get a new one? (This runs between about $1500 and $2000, roughly.)
I see the answer to that this way:
1.) To me personally, it is not. Don't get me wrong; I LIKE the gun and it works perfectly. Today's zero malfunction rate is business as usual.
However, when one buys into a gun for the long haul, he has essentially bought into a company. SIG thinks a heck of alot of their products. Extra single-stack factory magazines cost around $100 EACH! And they're not gold-plated, just blued! I hate to think what a spare sear, hammer, etc would cost. I bought this gun several years ago when I was financially a bit better off than today; I likely wouldn't pay that price today. One thing I do NOT like at all on the P210 is that its recoil spring and FLGR are captive. I could get the spring off for replacement, but am much more hesitant to try getting this one apart as it'd be expensive to replace if I mess something up...like the rod. With me, it could happen.
Also, this gun "bites" me and does so consistently. For the same reason mentioned above, I'm hesitant to "bob" the hammer spur. Today, for example, I used a cheaper way of avoiding hammer bite: duct tape on my hand. In the future, I'll put two or three layers on as the hammer spur eventually chewed through the tape to my paw. Didn't quite bleed, but the skin's broken in a line as wide as the hammer spur.
That said, I've used this pistol to shoot several critters and it's always done its part. Since I've got it, I'll likely keep, shoot, and enjoy it.
2.) If you have the money or just enough "want to" to save and buy this pistol because you just want to own a truly highest quality arm, it might be worth it; YOU have to make that decision.
That the gun shoots is not a question. I'm not sure which load actually groups best as the error I introduce is so great compared to the gun's consistency, that I might never know, but I DO know this; the thing shoots and shoots well. I will be using more of the less costly cast bullet load shown in targets above as this gun groups that load well.
I really cannot recommend this pistol for defensive use....at least not for me! The thumb safety, while positive in either its "on" or "off" positions, is just too far forward for me to operate without shifting my grip. If you're well-heeled enough, I'm sure you can have an extension added to the safety, but IF the gunsmith messes it up, I have no idea what a factory replacement would cost. All of this assumes that SIG-USA is still importing this gun and handles spare parts! Magazine changes are considerably slowed up by the rather strong, butt-located magazine release.
Perhaps just trying to keep this classic just that, the fixed sights have not been improved. They were spot on insofar as regulation's concerned, but still a bit small to use at speed. For my purposes, it really doesn't matter.
Again, I like and am in awe of this pistol, but were I doing it again, I'd likely go with an STI Trojan or an accurized BHP if I had to squeeze 9mm groups down as far as possible.
So there it is, just my view and observations on a really, really well-made handgun.
....and just for grins, here's the usual "dirt expansion tested" Speer 124 gr Gold Dots recovered from mud! Again, it doesn't really mean anything, but I like to see expanded bullets.
Recovered 124 gr GDHPs fired using the handloaded mention earlier...
Here's the P210 with the "Danish Police Grips" mentioned earlier...
Well if and when Sphinx ever starts importing to the US again you will be able to buy one that may equal the P210 but I'm afraid it may cost just as much or even more (depending on the model).
I have both a P210-6 (heavy frame, bomar type adjustable sights) and a couple of Sphinx and absolutely LOVE the guns. I don't get any hammer bite with the P210 and the gun has performed flawlessly. The slide is sooooo smooth it's unbelievable. And the trigger is just awesome. I'm able to purchase new factory mags from $70-$74.
If you want one just DO IT. I went through a lot of 9mms while I talked myself out of a P210. Ended up with one anyway and could have saved myself a lot of time and money if I had just purchased it to begin with.
I now have the P210, P220 (9mm), P225, and a couple of Sphinx. Those are the only 9mms I own and I don't forsee buying anything else. These guns fit my hand perfectly, are 100% reliable, and extremely accurate. I also happen to PREFER a euro mag release over an american style.
do tell us about the .22LR kit and it's performance.:)
Stephen A. Camp
February 24, 2003, 05:10 PM
Hello. Well the .22 conversion kit's very accurate and the sights were dead-on for me. Ejection's positive, but the thing is not reliable in feeding with about everything I've tried in both std and high velocity. I can likely tweak the magazine feed lips and solve that problem.
PS: I might do a range report on that in the future.
February 24, 2003, 09:44 PM
Great posts! Great pics! Especially from Stephen A. Camp. Loved that duct tape pic! My hands are small so I hope I don't need to do that!
I don't know, I guess I just want one. I get this way. Obsessing about a car, a girl, a certain kind of knife, or a sweet firearm like the P210.
The only cure is to buy one.
Saving my money!
February 25, 2003, 02:46 AM
I really wanted one of those 210s also once. I went to a local gun show and handled a new one and it didn't look very nice to me. The one in the pics above look great but the one I saw didn't. I was also able to work the controls and trigger and I was not very impressed. I guess I was expecting too much or something after all I had heard or maybe the newer ones aren't quite as nice.
I still want one, just not $1200 worth of want. I also want a BHP and Stephen A. Camp seems to recomend these so I think I will go that route. Now the trouble is finding one I like for a decent price. I have seen some good prices on the net but I really want to see it for myself before I buy.
February 25, 2003, 10:19 AM
Wish I could find one for the $1200 that is mentioned in this thread (a NIB SIG one). Mine cost $1895 + tax and it was the least expensive one I could find other than a few used ones, and they weren't much cheaper.
I've had a BHP Practical and it felt great in my hand. Never had a problem with it.
February 25, 2003, 11:03 AM
The Swiss have a cottage industry of taking normal designs (like the MAS 35 and the CZ-75), making them out of nice steel to tight tolerances, and charging an arm and a leg for them.
The P-210 is a nice gun and all, but I'm waiting for the Swiss-made SKS, which will no doubt shoot sub-MOA groups for only $3,000... ;)
February 25, 2003, 12:26 PM
The one in the pics above look great but the one I saw didn't. I was also able to work the controls and trigger and I was not very impressed. I guess I was expecting too much or something after all I had heard or maybe the newer ones aren't quite as nice.
Could it have been that you saw/handled a police model? Danish M49 or a German border police model.
February 25, 2003, 12:57 PM
I remember how you used to mock 1911s. How's that SA Professional model shooting with its ancient design and skinny magazines? Or that Baer, or that other Springfield, or...
I don't see you mocking HK P7s, either, with their spongy triggers, overheating tendencies, vulnerability to fouling, and crude (compared to a P210) fit and finish that cost $1,200 off the shelf. I guess an outrageously strange design that serves no purpose trumps a well-tested design executed to perfection.
Oops, I just did mock the P7! :evil:
February 25, 2003, 01:03 PM
Dude, I just don't get that whole "cost/benefit" vibe from the P-210; obviously some do. It's a free country. :p
Like I said a few threads over, I wouldn't kick one out of my safe, but I also wouldn't shell out the tariff for one, personally. They shoot nice, and all, but...
Do you think that a comparable level of hand-fitting goes into an SA Pro and a standard P-210? I don't think so, but maybe on some of the higher-end commercial models; certainly not all of them.
February 25, 2003, 01:11 PM
I'd say that even "basic" (OK, that's about $1,500 :D ) P210s easily trump most of the low-volume production 1911s out there like Wilsons and Baers in pretty much every objective and subjective quality. Fit and finish, accuracy, reliability, sheer smoothness. So yeah, at least insofar as the world of expensive production guns is concerned, the P210 makes perfect cost/benefit sense. Funny thing is, I had a 1911 pistolsmith agree with me. :eek:
Put another way, I personally would take a P210 over ANY of the expensive off-the-shelf 1911s out there because I consider it better in every way except caliber. A 1911 customized to my specifications, on the other hand, is a different story... which is why I've got a custom Delta Elite in the works, but don't have the P210 anymore. That, and the fact that I had to sell it at the time.
But expensive guns aren't about objective cost-benefit considerations anyway, otherwise we'd all be shooting CZ-75Bs. Everybody doesn't have to like P210s, of course, anymore than the need to like P7s or what-have-you. I guess it is just that the bashing of the P210 as the "gold cup tokarev" by people who ought to know better just strikes me as kind of childish.
Of course, I'm sure P7 fans are thinking the same thing about me right about now... but I never campaigned on a platform of perfect consistency. :D
February 25, 2003, 03:35 PM
I guess it is just that the bashing of the P210 as the "gold cup tokarev" by people who ought to know better just strikes me as kind of childish.
I guess if one gets one's ego all wrapped up in a gun, "ragging" or "teasing" could get confused with "bashing", even when copious amounts of smilies get used. :p
Funny, your remarks on the P7 haven't inspired me to defend it or take it off my hip (where it sits right now) since, from a certain standpoint, they contain a grain of truth.
PS: I'll put that Pro up against any Wilson, Baer, or P-210 I've ever handled; it's that slick, and it damn well better be for a $2,400 MSRP (which I didn't pay, and never would have paid...) ;) :D
February 25, 2003, 03:38 PM
I thought my smileys would have made my post seem just as non-serious as your smiles.
I already made somebody mad on a different forum by using smilies :rolleyes: , so now I don't know what to do... ;)
If I objected to anything, it is the fact that somebody who doesn't know anything about the P210 is going to latch on the tongue-in-cheek slagging of the gun and actually belive it. I don't need to defend SIG's honor (at least I won't without a P210-8 as a bribe :D ), but there is enough stupidity and misinformation out there as it is. Heck, somebody just started a topic about how they heard the SigSauer P228 is obsolete! :barf: