I shot a cop in the *&^%


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doseyclwn
December 29, 2002, 10:53 PM
I took this Survival Simulations Training course saturday here in VA taught by a VA state police firearms instructor and some assistants. Basically, we all had real guns using simunition (paint pellets that travelled at 200 ft/second). They briefed us on general rules of when you can/can't shoot somebody, etc. We put on face shields. Then, individually, they would put us in situations and we would respond. For example, they would say "You're home on a thursday night, watching TV. React to what happens. Act like you normally do at home.". So I would sit there. There was a "bang" at the door. I asked who it was, no response. Another bang at the door. It kept on, and it became obvious that someone was trying to break in. I grabbed my gun, ran into the other room and took a defensive position. A man burst in. I saw him start to raise his gun towards me and I fired 3 shots, hitting him center mass.

They put us through 14 of these situations. The only time I got shot is when I assumed it was over, but it was not. On one such simulation, the cop was approaching me (he was acting the part of the criminal), and raised a weapon at me. I drew and shot him, hitting him in the Willie. Needless to say, he took a small break at that point.

Anyone else ever do anything like this? It was not only fun, but it really helped me see bar none that it is NOT like the movies, that you have no time to decide what to do in such a situation. I plan to do it again if I can.

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Wakal
December 29, 2002, 11:24 PM
That just sounds like fun (except for the cop getting shot in the winkie...that was just fun for everyone else but him)...haven't had a chance to play Simunition games yet, but am quite looking forward to it.


Alex

jbrown
December 29, 2002, 11:53 PM
We use simunition for force protection/ anti-terrorism courses in the Navy. Just went through a one week course on force protection fundamentals. I wish it could have been longer, but I still learned more in that one week than I have in most of the Navy schools I've been through. Since we fleet sailors get so little trigger time (about 60 rounds per year, at paper targets:mad: )) It is invaluable to get actual tactical training that very nearly simulates real life situations. These courses used to be taught with paintball markers, but Simunition makes the training that much more valuable. On a scarier note, I found it very disturbing that nearly half the class was incapable of basic weapons handling procedures (clear and safe etc.):eek: Can't begin to count the number of times I saw people running and climbing ladders with their fingers on their triggers. :eek: :eek:

Jeff

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 11:58 PM
doseyclwn, why, oh why, don't they wear shields?

A lump of anything at 200 FPS is going to ruin your day if that's where you get hit, and it could ruin more than one day....

PATH
December 30, 2002, 02:02 AM
OOOWWWW!!!! That gives me the willies just thinking about it.

iso1
December 30, 2002, 02:15 AM
"Yeah, it's all fun an' games till someone gets shot in the winkie...


...then it's stinking hilarious!"

Man, that had to hurt....

Tommy.Gun
December 30, 2002, 02:26 AM
That sounds like fun and a good learning experience. I will soon be going to Hostile Environment school, which is in VA also..It will be in preparation for my trip to Kuwait. I hope I do well.

From what I understand it will be mostly outdoors. We will be wet, dirty, cold and tired for six long days.

This is it:


COURSE TITLE

HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS AWARENESS TRAINING (CATEGORY 1) - USA
(Main course – 6 day; Continuation course – 4 day)


PROVIDER Pilgrims Specialist Training Ltd
Ph: +44 (0)1932 339187
Fax: +44 (0)1932 336330
Email: training@pilgrimsgroup.com


WHO IT IS FOR Personnel who travel in or work in potentially hostile environments anywhere in the world – regions where there may be civil unrest, shootings, tribal feuds, hostility towards media or certain ethnic groups, isolated fighting to all out war. This course can be adapted as required but it was originally designed specifically for News Media and is now an essential requirement for BBC News personnel before they deploy to such regions.


COURSE OUTLINE
It is an intense 6 day basic course and a 4 day continuation course designed specifically for media personnel by Pilgrims SAS personnel in conjunction with the BBC. The course covers a wide range of new and innovative subject areas and deals with avoiding danger and dealing intelligently with difficult situations. It is mostly practical and the course builds up to a challenging Situation Awareness all day exercise.

Since the beginning of these new courses in Jun 2001, feedback has been consistently excellent; this supports our aim – to provide the masterclass of all Hostile Environments training for media personnel.

The course content includes the following modules:

 Pre deployment considerations (how to set up properly for any trip and avoid problems when it is too late)
 Personal Conflict Management – this is an important theme which follows through the whole course (use of body language, non verbal and verbal communication – how to negotiate your way through, how to how to handle a variety of difficult situations from customs officials, to a angry threatening crowds, to physical aggressors)
 Abduction (intense thinking module considering past cases, psychology of abductors and options available)
 Medical Training (half of the training time is medical – delegates receive the First Aid at Work certification involving dealing with trauma to tropical problems to cleansing water)
 Ballistic Awareness – effect of weapons, using cover from fire and cover from view, reporting correctly
 Terrain Awareness – How to use ground to best advantage (profile and cover)
 Navigation – map and compass, satellite Global Positioning Systems
 Mobile Navigation – by vehicle, saves time through proper navigation at speed
 Convoy Driving – clever practical tips on how to protect the convoy and how to not get separated and how to operate in difficult situations
 Vehicle Security including easy to remember improvised maintenance, hiding places for kit
 Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
 Personal Safety Awareness including counter surveillance and anti surveillance, judgement of people, where to stand, sit walk, profile, what to look out for – avoiding getting involved in situations. Special Female Considerations
 Building security - hotels, homes, villas, offices including high rise buildings (relating building characteristics to the real and potential threat and what can be done about it – theft, mugging and abduction to firearms and shell threat)
 Mines and Booby trap awareness (procedures designed specifically for media groups and how they operate)
 Vehicle Check Points – challenging practical module bringing together much of the course to date and specific check point aspects. These include clever tips such as approach procedure (window, doors, speed, lights, observation, stopping point, static initial gear selection…) as well as other practical considerations including body language, passes, negotiation, managing aggression, bribes, security of kit, splitting of the team etc
 Living in the Field – if required (European, Jungle, Desert, Arid, Arctic)



DURATION
6 Days Hostile Environments Course – accommodation and all meals provided.

4 Days Hostile Environments Continuation Course – accom and meals provided.

LOCATION

Mountain-top Camp near Reading (PA) between New York and Washington DC

ROSANGHAL
December 30, 2002, 02:56 AM
The tactical study group I train with works with simunitions and scenario based training with sims once a month. The group is called A.T.S.A. and they're the ones that hold the National Tactical Invitational every year.

On the third saturday of every month we do live fire, alternative weapons and simunition training. Off the top of my head we have done scenarios where you go to a grocery store and pick up a carton of milk, dentist office, parking garage, disgrunteled worker at workplace. There are even some scenarios where they won't allow you to have a sims gun b/c your traveling to a state that doesn't allow CCW or you're on a plane. Other times the scenarios can be solved w/o having to draw your pistol. It just depends on the situation.

The best way to approach this type of training is to actually do what you do in real life.

I think this type of training is extremely beneficial to anyone who carries either guns or knives for self defense. I believe you can get good, shooting at targets and moving off the line of force and doing malfunction drills and sometimes shooting at moving targets but I don't believe it will be easy for you to be a great student of self-defense without this type of training because it brings you as close to a real confrontation as you can come. The closer you bring yourself, in training, to any event you train for will better prepare you for it. You're not dealing with one dimensional targets, you're interacting with people who will react to what you do and say and you've got to deal with it. Just like in real life.

Ross T.

Tommy.Gun
December 30, 2002, 03:09 AM
Well said..

Drizzt
December 30, 2002, 09:20 AM
jbrown:

I know what you mean. Nothing gets your attention quicker than realizing the guy following you up the ladderwell has had his finger on the trigger of the shotgun he's carrying.


"Security Alert, Security Alert, away the security alert team......"

P12
December 30, 2002, 09:51 AM
OOOWWWW!!!! That gives me the willies just thinking about it.

I'll DITTO that!:eek:

Rangerover
December 30, 2002, 10:49 AM
Read in one of the gunrags recently where a crook got his, er, "winkie" (?!) bitten off by a highly motivated four-legged K-9 officer named "Scooby". Seems the perp was irritated by having his buttocks gnawed by officer Scooby...so he turned around.

I think I giggled a LITTLE after the blood drained out of my face.

And no, I won't make a joke about a "Scooby Snack".

:p

Orion
December 30, 2002, 11:06 AM
I'm guessing I'll be sleeping in the fetal position tonigh tafter the shooting and the "Scooby" incident.

Sounds like good training.

Bythe Way Tommy Gun those don't look like Virginia Telephone Numbers. you may want to check again where you will be going for training.

Blackcloud6
December 30, 2002, 11:08 AM
I got to be a bad guy in counter terrorism training once. We were doing vehicle check point procedures and I had to be a terrorist who pulls out a gun and starts shooting up the checkpoint. I used a Beretta 92FS with Simunitions. The first time we did it, the squad at the checkpoint didn't know I had the Simunitons and they were shocked when I opened fire. I only shot at the car in front of me as nobody had face shields. The idea was to teach them to expect the unexpected and not just go through the motions of a training exercise. It worked.

Jmurman
December 30, 2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by doseyclwn
I took this Survival Simulations Training course saturday here in VA taught by a VA state police firearms instructor and some assistants. Basically, we all had real guns using simunition (paint pellets that travelled at 200 ft/second). They briefed us on general rules of when you can/can't shoot somebody, etc. We put on face shields. Then, individually, they would put us in situations and we would respond. For example, they would say "You're home on a thursday night, watching TV. React to what happens. Act like you normally do at home.". So I would sit there. There was a "bang" at the door. I asked who it was, no response. Another bang at the door. It kept on, and it became obvious that someone was trying to break in. I grabbed my gun, ran into the other room and took a defensive position. A man burst in. I saw him start to raise his gun towards me and I fired 3 shots, hitting him center mass.

They put us through 14 of these situations. The only time I got shot is when I assumed it was over, but it was not. On one such simulation, the cop was approaching me (he was acting the part of the criminal), and raised a weapon at me. I drew and shot him, hitting him in the Willie. Needless to say, he took a small break at that point.

Anyone else ever do anything like this? It was not only fun, but it really helped me see bar none that it is NOT like the movies, that you have no time to decide what to do in such a situation. I plan to do it again if I can. Is this something that is open for the general public? I would LOVBE to something like this.

Tommy.Gun
December 30, 2002, 07:43 PM
Orion, those numbers are overseas I think. Also I think we get to shoot AK's , I hope so anyway.

For thouse intrested:

TIME Day 1 Day 2 Day 3 Day 4 Day 5 Day 6
0820 Pre Course Admin
Briefing Briefing Briefing Briefing Briefing
0830-0930 Navigation Map & Compass
(RR 2)
Medical
Fractures & Burns
(RR 4) Medical
Scenarios RTA
(RR 6) Medical Review Medical

(RR 9)
0930-1030 0930-1330
Medical

Scenario
Casualty Handling

(RR 8)
1030–1100 BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK
1100–1200 Opening Address
1100-1130

Medical Intro Medical Secondary assess & recovery pos
(RR 2) Mines & Booby Trap Awareness
(RR 4) Vehicle Security (rr 2) GPS & Pre Deployment
(RR 9)
1200–1300 Mobile Navigation (rr 2) (RR 6)
1300-1330 LUNCH LUNCH
LUNCH LUNCH LUNCH
1330-1400 LUNCH 1330-1500

Range Demo (AK and pistol)

1400-1500 Body Language
Managing Conflict
Hostile Crowd (RR 1) Ballistic Awareness (Small Arms)

Reaction to Fire
(RR3) Medical
Moulage & Nasty Injuries
(RR 5) Medical
Scenarios Casualty Handling
(RR 7) 1400-1800
Situation Awareness Exercise

(RR 8) 1500-1600
Debrief Feedback
(Dispersal for delegates not requiring CBRN)
1500-1600

1600-1630 BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK BREAK
1630-1730 Medical BLS inc Resus & Heart Attack
(RR 1) Medical
Control of Bleeding
(RR 3) Building Security Int
(rr 1) Convoy Procedures CBRN course begins – 3 hours on Sat in order to finish by 1600 Sun. Ref CBRN programme
Vehicle Check Points (RR 7)
1730-1830 Building Security Ext (rr 1) (RR 5)
Personal Admin
1830-1930 DINNER DINNER Post Traumatic Stress Disorder DINNER 1900 Pre Dinner Drinks
1930-2030 Abduction Ballistic Awareness (Heavy Weapons) DINNER in town Personal Safety Considerations 2000 till late!
LAST SUPPER

.
General
The world is hardly becoming a safer place. Whilst we recognise the pressures on you to perform sometimes in very difficult circumstances, we aim to help you to sustain your operations and yourself in high risk environments. We look forward to welcoming you on the next HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS Course, which will be held at Camp Horizons, in the beautiful Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA (see Directions).
Aim
The aim of the course is simply to help you live and work more safely and efficiently in hostile environments (category 1 – up to and including war zones).
Experience
The course will cater for people of varying abilities and experiences and we will tailor the lessons accordingly.

For Advice on Directions:
Camp Horizons
3586 Horizons Way
Harrisonburg, VA USA 22802


Accommodation
We are going to live in rustic wooden cabin style accommodations that are warm, clean and comfortable. Each cabin has a shower, toilet and basin integral to the building. Whilst the communal areas (dining room and lounge, training rooms etc) are excellent for this course, don’t expect the cabins to be anything other than sleeping areas. There will be several delegates per cabin and there is plenty of space.
Towels, soap and other toiletries are not provided so please bring your own.

The course is always very communal-based and we have made a significant effort to support this aspect with appropriate niceties including very good food and plenty of it, a carefully selected wine list, a dining room and lounge area with large log fire and a special Last Supper where the chef delivers his best feast.

Facilities
This facility is ideal for the kind of Hostile Environments course that we want to run for you. We intend to take you away from your normal environment for one week – it is more of a mountain camping environment than a hotel environment. Bring rugged clothing, clothing for cold and wet weather and sturdy walking boots (below). Daily papers will be provided and there is internet access points via a workstation PC and dial up connection for your laptops, there is Direct TV in the dining room/lounge. For the warmer months there are also excellent tennis courts, a basket ball court and a new outdoor swimming pool facility.

Special Food Requirements
If any delegate has specific food requirements (e.g. vegetarian), please inform Pilgrims Training as soon as possible and we will ensure that appropriate arrangements are in place. Tea and Coffee and fruit is available throughout and there is a morning and afternoon tea break each day.

Personal Clothing
A significant part of the Course will take place out of doors – the course is very practical and interactive; it will be cold outside but the course is designed to run in all weather conditions within reason. Over half the course is outdoors but you will not have more than an hour outside at a time. Please bear this in mind and bring with you the following:
1. Rough and Ready Outdoor Clothing which you don’t mind getting damaged. Practical, comfortable and warm outdoor clothing is required. It will get wet, possibly dirty and will probably get covered with fake blood. Fake blood does however wash out. You will be advised on the course when this is likely to occur. For your convenience, this does not occur on day 1 or day 6.
2. Wet weather clothing.
3. Cold weather clothing.
1. Changes of clothes. As you see fit for 6 days.
2. Footwear. A pair of sturdy outdoor boots ideally with ankle support.

Local Facilities
Harrisonburg is 11 miles to the South – it is a small city, but has two major universities and several well known colleges and with a host of the usual facilities.

Evenings
Your days will be busy but it is important that you are able to relax during the evenings. There is an honesty bar in the dining room where you will be able to purchase wine and beer payment for which should be made by cheque or cash on the final day. We ask that you respect this system.

There are after-dinner talks/discussions or lessons, which may include Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Abduction and perhaps an interest talk depending on the programme. We expect to be finished by 9pm except on the final evening, which goes on as long as you do (below ‘Last Supper’).

The Last Supper
This has so far been a huge success and immensely enjoyable. It takes place during the last evening of the course following the Situation Awareness circuits that day. We meet for drinks before our private candle-lit dinner.

Contacts
+44 1932 339187 - Sarah Storey (Training Co-ordinator). Sarah is you primary contact pre and post course.
+44 1932 336330 – Fax

Finally…your days will be full and long, but there is nothing silly here. We will be working with you building confidence throughout your week, before taking-on a series challenging situation awareness exercises at the end. The feedback to date has been outstanding – it is serious stuff and of course it must be fun! We all enjoy the experience.

Please don’t hesitate to contact us at Pilgrims at any time if you have any further queries. Thank you for now and we look forward very much to seeing you on this course!

Pilgrims Specialist Training Ltd
Pilgrims House
496 Woodham Lane, Woking, Surrey, UK GU21 5SR
Phone: +44 (0) 1932 339187 Fax: +44 (0) 1932 349943 email: training@pilgrimsgroup.com
Registered in England 3803961 VAT Registration No: 770465422

Poplin
December 31, 2002, 12:45 AM
Pretty good training.

I did this at my martial arts club a while back... one of the instructors was a law enforcement training officer and had access to the Simunitions and modified revolvers. We practiced disarming each other without getting shot.

What I learned was that it is REALLY REALLY difficult to avoid taking a bullet if your assailant has the gun pointed and finger on the trigger.

I think that in a real life situation you need to depend on moving fast and hope that the assailant is not 100% ready to shoot you.

MatthewVanitas
December 31, 2002, 04:39 AM
We did some urban combat training once, with a Simunition M4-type upper bolted on to our M16-A2 lowers, and it was a whole peck of fun.

Standard gear included the Interceptor vests and paintball masks. We were all told to wear the "fig leaf", which is the little crotch-covering flap that you can snap on to the Interceptor.

The very first shots that hit me (from a guy firing _into_ the freaking house from outside, through a peephole) hit me right in the "fig leaf" three shots in a row. I was profoundly glad for that little flap of nylon.

Peetmoss
December 31, 2002, 05:43 AM
Sounds like a blast. I guess that LEO will be now wearing a cup during simulations:D

Smoke
December 31, 2002, 10:13 AM
I had the chance to do some simunition training one time. It was very similar to what doseyclwn described.

We ran multiple scenarios with shoot/don't shoot enviroments. One of the scenarios someone else would load your weapon for you. They would mix in plastic dummy rounds so it would simulate a jam/missfire/problem. On the first run I cleared two dummy rounds and still took out the bad guys. On the second run I got killed. They loaded two dummys in a row and I paniced. Bad guy got me twice center mass. Turned my heart into jello. Not a good feeling.

During the same course, I had the opportunity to shoot someone with a bean bag round out of a 12 gauge. I worked the course as a range officer and the head instructer put on a chest protector from a FIST suit. He had me shoot him with with the bean bag from about 20 yrds. Interesting experience for both of us.

gun-fucious
December 31, 2002, 10:35 AM
gunfucious say;
wise paintball players wear a cup

warning
quite graphic:
http://mortonwebdesign.com/OUCH!.htm

a bunch of war stories:
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144265

QuickDraw
December 31, 2002, 10:41 AM
"I drew and shot him, hitting him in the Willie."
"Anyone else ever do anything like this?"
Can't say as I have!

QuickDraw

ayeaye
December 31, 2002, 10:58 AM
Drizzt
jbrown:

I know what you mean. Nothing gets your attention quicker than realizing the guy following you up the ladderwell has had his finger on the trigger of the shotgun he's carrying.


"Security Alert, Security Alert, away the security alert team......"


"...... Away the Backup Alert Team. All hands Stand Fast"

Drills are/were good --- One FT2 on our DDG learned hard lesson when he inserted mag in his 45, released slide (probably w/ finger inside trigger gaurd) and promptly fired a round into overhead cable run in the main passageway.

UnknownSailor
December 31, 2002, 12:42 PM
You meen former FT2, right? :D

wingnutx
December 31, 2002, 01:33 PM
Gun-fucious:

I have never worn a cup playing paintball before, but I am going to start!

Drizzt
January 2, 2003, 12:21 AM
Someone needed to take away the FT2's gun, and give him a BT Punch..... :D

geekWithA.45
January 2, 2003, 12:22 AM
I'm wearing a cup. At all times. Like 24/7/365.

Redlg155
January 2, 2003, 12:24 AM
OWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!

It would have taken every ounce of effort in my body to not gas you in retaliation! Provided that I did have OC spray on me.:D

Good Shooting
RED

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