[1911Tuner]

A continuation of this thread, due to the other one goin' to hellinahandbasket, gettin' a bit off-topic...and long in the tooth.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99404
__________________

Jammer overnighted the top end to me...and all seems to be well.
Here's what I found:

The slide was in-spec, but on the short side of tolerance from the firing pin slot centerline to the breechface, causing the extractor to sit slightly forward.

The extractors...both of'em...were on the long side of tolerance from the
stop slot to the backside of the hook, contributing to a tolerance stackup issue in relation to the extractor groove of the cartridge. Don't know if this has been corrected by the vendor in a different lot.

Both firing pin stops in the extractors width was out of spec, which allowed
.005 inch of fore and aft play in the channel. I replaced his extractor with a used Wilson part designed for a Series 80 Colt...

The extractor channel was slightly angled to the right, making it necessary
to reduce the front pad to just under .125 inch in order to obtain correct tension on the case rim during feeding...and as a result, more "bend' was required in order to maintain tension throughout the cycle. This made nearly total reduction of the right side of the center pad in order to prevent hard binding when the extractor cams open to receive the rim.

There was slight clocking of the extractor noted, and not having an oversized firing pin stop on hand...I used a punch to raise a dimple on the side of the stop to put it into contact with the extractor. This is a field expedient repair, and an oversized stop should be correctly fitted...though the expedient fix will hold up unless the stop is removed from the slide repeatedly over a period of time.

The barrel fit was good, and the chamber slightly short, making perfect headspace on an .895 GO gauge. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it will tend to make the gun less reliable with case lead bullets with a shoulder that provides a full-diameter driving band unless seated flush with the case mouth.

The slide walked onto an old 1918 Colt frame, and all timing functions are correct. I'll test-fire the top end on this frame and see what we have.

All indications that the problem issolved, as long as the extractor isn't forced to snap over the rim during a push-feed, which is most often a magazine issue during the feeding of the last round.

If everything checks out, Jammer should have hhis pistol up and runnin' no later than Saturday.

Drop-In parts sometimes don't...

Cheers!

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Fished around and found a firing pin stop that's wide enough to keep the extractor squared up. One little hitch...It's a stainless Series 80 Colt stop.
It works, and it's perfectly sized to the slide. It just ain't the right color. If Jammer can't live with it, he can always refit an EGW later.
All he's gotta do is copy the dimensions on the Colt stop and slide it in.:cool:

Standin' by...

[Old Fuff]

Did Jammer send you the original extractor that S.A. put in the gun? It would be interesting to see if it was on the short side, and therefore correct for that particular slide. As I previously mentioned to Jammer, always measure before you alter any part.

I don't think that S.A. would know a blueprint if they tripped over it, and I wonder if they even spot-check parts when they are received from vendors.

That chamber should run between .898 - .920 max. These days short (match) chambers are the order of the day, and they unquestionably contribute toward failure-to-go-into-battery jams.

It's really sad. Back when ... they could build better guns in the middle of a war.

[Jammer Six]

I didn't send him the original.

It's long gone.

It broke over a year ago, and I simply bought a Brown, threw it in with no modification, tuned it, and it lasted most of a year.

I have a brand new oversized Ed Brown firing pin stop sitting right here, because I noticed that the old one was really loose.

I should have sent it in the package... :banghead:

I have some questions, and I'll post them later this evening- there's at least four things I'm supposed to be doing right now, but this is so much more fun... :evil:

[1911Tuner]

Old Fuff asked:

Did Jammer send you the original extractor that S.A. put in the gun? It would be interesting to see if it was on the short side...
_______________________

Nope...but I did have occasion to see yet another Springfield extractor that was givin' Amish_Bill fits. He came up last Friday and brought his Loaded Springer for a little trigger work,(disconnect failing to reset/gun failing to fire) andto have a Wilson extractor fitted. (Odd things happened on that one)

The OEM extractor hook was .005 inch shorter than the spec minimum,
and is yet another trend with Springfield extractors. The steel was
tough and appeared to be correctly heat-treated...but now the hooks are too short! :rolleyes: That's the third one I've seen...and heard of two more. Same deal. Failures to extract...Short hooks.

I tweaked the Wilson, prepped and installed a Briley disconnect, and added a little tension to middle leaf of the sear spring. His original problem
was solved, but he had a return to battery failure on test-firing...I probably got a little too much tension on the puller-outer. Then...the damnedest thing...but that's meat for another thread. :p

[Dave Sample]

Interesting.

[1911Tuner]

Welp...Gonna try to make a range run early in the A.M. and run 250 rounds of PMC hardball through it. If I can get back early enough, I'll try my best to FedEx it back to ya around noon, Jammer.

Just outta morbid curiosity, I tried the slide on two early 1991-A1s...and it sliped right on both of'em. Lined up flush at the back and ever'thang.
Interesting...:scrutiny:

[Jammer Six]

Thanks, 'Tuner.

I'm taking the liberty of posting the exchange you and I had by email, so everyone can play, and so I can pester you with more questions.

My question: What was the clue that led you to the extractor channel? What made you
check the channel?

'Tuner's answer: The fact that the hook on a stock extractor was held so far from the breechface that the wall wouldn't touch the rim. The pad was .140 inch, and I had to reduce it a full 64th inch to get it into position.
____________________

My question: How did you determine that the channel is the problem (in other words,
how can I test for this condition in the future?)

'Tuner's answer: I measured the length of the slide from fp stop to breechface and
subtracted half the thickness of the slot to determine how far off it was,
and compared the extractor length to Ordnance specs. I checked the channel
by dropping a ground pin of the right diameterinto the channel, and
eyeballing it to see if it was perpendicular to the floor...It was off far
enough that I could see it, but I've got an eye for symmetry. Somebody else might not be able to see an angle that small.
_________________

My question: How do you fix it? Fit the extractor differently?

'Tuner's answer: I relieved the front of the hook...the angle that was making contact with
the extractor groove...and radiused it a little.
_______________

My question: If so, how is the extractor fit to such a slide.

'Tuner's answer: By trying to compensate for the dimensions that are working against you.
The essence of hand-fitting. *wink*

Thanks, 'Tuner.

Now, of course, I have more questions, but after an apprenticeship of my own, and after training several apprentices, I know that over half the battle is asking the right question in the right way.

I must now retire to the Place Of Pizza, contemplate Pepperoni, and phrase my questions correctly.

[mpthole]

Hey guys! ;) Just tagging along for the ride on this one as I have my own extractor issues. Working fine for now, but will need a new one in another couple thousand I'm sure... so maybe I'll ask for one for Christmas. :p

[Jim K]

Old Fuff wrote, "I don't think that S.A. would know a blueprint if they tripped over it, and I wonder if they even spot-check parts when they are received from vendors."

Golly, it was so nice in the old days when we had only Colts or GI guns to work on. We could sort of assume that the pieces were at least near spec. Now you first have to determine if the darn parts are anything like the right size before you can even begin to figure out what else is wrong.

And it isn't getting any better.

Jim

[Jammer Six]

OK, here's the rest of our exchange.

Since this was the first set of answers, I probably should have posted this first.

'Tuner said:

--------------
And the good news is....I think it's fixed! It was
a spec issue...but not in any one part and only one area was out of spec.
Tolerances stacking up in the wrong direction was causing the contact, and
the extractor lengths being right on the peg produced hard enough contact to
break the extractors.

Just to be sure we've eliminated everything...do your magazines have dimpled
followers? if the last round is jumping the follower and push-feeding, the hook will snap over
and cause premature failure. That dimple is important
in preventing that little trick...

The one spec problem that I did find was the
extractor channel itself wasn't bored straight, and angled away from the
breechface about .010 inch. I reduced the front pad to get tension on the
case rim, and almost removed the outboard center pad to let the extractor
spring like it should.
--------------

Nope, the magazines are seven round Wilson 47's. This is where you tell me that they have concave followers, and I say "well... OK... But I said SEVEN rounders" and you say...

Anyway, you get the picture. We did this last thread. I figure you're wanting to go through it again is because you're really old, but that's OK. It's why I'm bugging you for answers.

Now, the first question I have is what do you mean when you say the extractor channel was angled away from the breechface?

Doesn't the extractor channel run THROUGH the breechface?

[Jammer Six]

Studying all your answers yet again, I now see where you said in your post that the channel angled "...slightly to the right..." which means that when you say "...angled away from the breechface..." you mean away from the center of the breechface, right?

Now that I think it over, it could also mean that I don't know where the hell the breechface is, and that the channel is actually outside the breechface, and then every word you've said would be correct... :banghead:

When I discover an answer that means I'm wrong and the entire rest of the world is right, that usually means that I've found the real answer...

[1911Tuner]

LOL Jammer...you gotta tell me what you're smokin'.:D

Yeah...The channel is angled to the right away from the breechface centerline. I was tryin' to eat supper when I typed that...and the dogs were crowdin' me during their nightly game of seein' how much of my
food they can talk me out of...:rolleyes:

Actually, the angled channel isn't all that uncommon...just not usually that
pronounced. I'd rather have one angle to the right than to the left.
Those are the ones that cause the hook to catch when ya try to take'em out...and ya gotta use a separate tool to spring it open and push it back
past the breechface at the same time...and that ain't the worst part...
Ya gotta file the wall deeper and shorten the hook so the cases can slip under the hook without hangin' up. It gets to be a mess sometimes.

I went back and put a slight compound angle on the backside of the hook, just at the top...to give it a little clearance when it twists off the hook
during ejection.

Another observation was that it was the first slide that I've ever used an Ed Brown extractor in that the butt-end of the extractor didn't stick out
past flush a 64th or so...Odd. Makes me suspect that maybe the firing pin stop slot was farther forward than it should be...which would also be a player in your contact issue with the case extractor groove. I'm gonna try to massage one of the extractors that you sent with it so you'll have a drop-in spare...so I may not be able to ship it back until Thursday. Depends on how things go today.

EDIT TO ADD:

Jim and Fuff...I miss the days when we could buy a GI extractor for two bucks...still in the paper...maybe tweak it a little, and stick it into a Colt
or an Ithaca, or a Rand...etc, etc...and except for a periodic cleaning, forget about it for years. I miss that. The good news is that I don't see problems like Jammer has very often. Or...maybe it's actually a little TOO often.
I guess it depends on how ya look at it.

Cheers all! Off to the range to bust a few hunnert..and that's always a good thing.:cool:

[1911Tuner]

Two hunnert 'n' fifty rounds of PMC 230 hardball went down range this fine
North Carolina mornin'...and nary a hitch did the Jammergun suffer.

That Springfield slide rode tall on top of that Colt frame...and it did the old
girl proud. Old and New...East and West...Pete and Repeat...Frick and Frack all came together in an unlikely mating and harmony was abound
down at the ol' PHA range...

Ejection was lively at 2 O'clock, and the brass landed about 8 feet from the gun and slightly behind me. Slow-fire or as fast as I could pull the trigger...Two-handed or one...Limp grip or solid...All was well, and the redeemed top end should be wingin' its way back to Papa early tomorrow mornin'. I still gotta tweak the spare extractor...if it'll tweak enough to work...and clean everything up. Gotta take a li'l nap right now...It's been a while since 0300 hours, and I ain't as young as I used ta be. :rolleyes:

Jammer...Ya still gotta get some proper magazines though.

Cheers all! The birds are singin' in the Carolinas!

[Jammer Six]

Will new followers suffice?

[1911Tuner]

Jammer asked:

Will new followers suffice?
-------------------------------

Yep...if the springs are good. Think Wolff 11-pound springs...

I also cleaned up the throat a little...Found a fairly deep toolmark. I couldn't get it all without goin' too deep, but it's not at a level that'll make a difference. Polished up pretty nicely too.:cool:

I knocked a burr off the lower lug feet. No problem...just seein' to details.

[1911Tuner]

Jammer! I just remembered....You said that you're usin' Wilson 47s and 47Ds...The springs are proprietary in those, and probably won't work well
with standard followers without some reengineering on the top coil.
McCormick Shooting Stars and Powermags' springs are compatible with standard followers, but the Shooting Stars' springs are a little soft for best function. The do okay in some guns...not so well in others.

[Jammer Six]

I'll probably be talking to Metalform sometime today.

How can I tell if the Wilson 47's are the problem?

How can I tell if the last round is being push fed?

I love my 47's, and I have a whole bunch of them. If I have to replace them, I'm going to need counseling... :(

[Dave Sample]

Very Interseting thread.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Jammer,

You don't need to lose the Wilson mags...just the springs and followers.
Think of all the bucks you'll save on the shrink...:D

I first noticed the tendency for slick-topped followers to push-feed the last round way back in the early 80s...when I picked up a little paperback written by Ken Hallock. He advised removing the dimples with a file so that the last round wouldn't "feed differently" than the others. This was in the days before I completely understood just what that dimple was for. My
ol' man had mentioned it, but like so much of his advice, I failed to heed it...
and paid the price. I proceeded to break 2 GI extractors in less than 3 months. The first sign that something was wrong was the failures to return to battery with the round in the chamber ahead of the extractor...
always on the last round. When the extractors softened up enough to allow the gun to go to battery, I figured that the problem had "worked itself out" and kept on truckin'...until the extractors failed.

I also noticed something. Being a reloader that considers brass as a precious metal, I rarely lost one. I noticed that, on a few cases, ther was a strange ding on the edges of the rims. It made some of the brass hard to
get into the shell holder, and it occured to me to do the math and find out
whether it was at random or once per magazine. It about once per mag,
so I proceeded to fire one at a time and check...It happened on the last round almost without fail. We didn't have Wolff 11-pound springs then,
and new springs helped...but not much. I also noticed that with the magazines that still had dimples, the last round didn't get dinged. Bein' a
little quicker than the average dummy, I added 2+2 and came up with the right answer.

That was when I began to accept that John Browning knew a liiiitle more about the pistol than I did...and he put several things on the gun that have a very good reason for being there...and that dimple is one of'em.

Fast forward to the age of hi-cap mags...and the poor old 1911 was stuck with only seven. The marketeers had to do something to keep up with the
Wondernine Set..and the Devel 8-round magazine came along. Some of us had already played with turning stock mags into 8-rounders by cuttin' the
follower leg off and clippin' the springs...It didn't work well because the follower would pitch forward when the rim grabbed the dimple. We removed the dimple, and the follower's rock'n'roll stopped...but the extractors started to break...among other little glitches. The split, spring steel Devel follower helped a little...but the problems still lingered...including the last round jumping the followers and laying loose in the port with the slide locked back. Wolff springs helped with that...but the push-feeds...and broken extractors... hung on like a Pitbull.
All this trouble...for one_extra_round! :rolleyes:

[Jammer Six]

So I'm looking for a ding on the edge of the rim on the last round?

The ding that is caused by the push feed, and then the extractor snapping over the rim?

Does it happen every time?

Can I go to the range, load one round in magazine, fire it, pick up the brass, and be looking at a rim with a ding?

[Jammer Six]

Now you have me thinking.

This is where I can really screw things up...

If it's the dimple that prevents push feeds, how does that work?

Sitting here thinking it over, if the last round moves too fast without the dimple, it jumps up into the chamber in front of the extractor, and a push feed results.

The dimple slows it down just enough so that as the rim comes up out of the magazine, the extractor has had time to get there, and is already directly above it, so that as the upward edge of the rim hits the breechface, it's already behind the hook of the extractor, and has no choice but to roll up under it.

The problem I have with that is this: what, then, causes the other rounds to feed correctly?

They don't have the dimple to slow them down. They have a slick surface, the brass of the round under them, to ride on.

It seems to me that if the dimple prevents push feeds, the other six rounds in the magazine should all push feed, because they're not in contact with the dimple.

[1911Tuner]

>>They don't have the dimple to slow them down. They have a slick surface, the brass of the round under them, to ride on.<<
____________________


The others don't push-feed because of the extra spring tension they provide...and if the springs get weak enough, the push-feed will happen before the last round. The last round in the magazine is under minimum tension, and more susceptible to the inertial effects during recoil. That's
why extra-power springs help with a smooth follower...but they don't always keep the round from jumping the follower.

The dimple doesn't slow the round's forward movement...it stops it...
and if you'll slide one forward slowly, you'll notice that it also stops it right
at the feed lip release point.

Oddly enough...a heavier recoil spring makes it MORE likely to happen.

You won't see it happen by loading one round and firing it...You might by loading two rounds and firing both...and inspecting them. It may not ALWAYS do it...but even at one round every 50, it doesn't take long for an extractor problem to show up. Your first red flag will be premature loss of tension with a good extractor.

When the extractors were made of spring-tempered steel, they'd tolerate
snapover feeds better...but not forever. part of the reason that Browning specified spring steel was to allow for emergency single loading in the event of a lost magazine...but the gun was never intended to feed that way on a regular basis.

To get a better understanding of the dynamics imvolved, do a search on
"Inertia!" That should pull up a thread that I wrote up some time back.
I'll look for it too, incase you don't find it.

[Old Fuff]

Once upon a time in a land far, far away ….

John Browning was sitting under a tree and an apple fell on his head. He was dazed for a moment, but then said …

It has been revealed to me that in a box magazine all the cartridges are not fed with the same pressure underneath them because when the first round is chambered from a fully loaded magazine the spring is compressed, and when the last one feeds into the barrel the spring is relaxed. Consequently the last round is pushed up slower and less positively then the first one.

So he went forth and designed a magazine for his .45 pistol which, when it had a spring of proper tension, would hold up to 7 cartridges. But lo, as time passed those in the “new school” of pistol design which is with us today, decreed that we must have a magazine that holds 8 rounds in a space intended to only hold 7 – this being necessary because many members of the “new school” of thinking worship at the Church of Combat Gun-Games, where many, many shots are required to complete the course where a competitor must engage a whole army of bad-guy targets.

Of course there were some old fogies who refused to use the new magazines, and they were often rewarded with reliable functioning. Since most of them didn’t attend the Church of Combat Gun-Games they suffered no ill consequences. They do sometimes watch with amusement as “new school” adherents festoon their pistols with gadgets and gimmicks of questionable value – and then complain because they don’t work anymore.

I know that this is a very radical suggestion, and probably should never be broached in public, but anyway – I will throw caution and judgment to the wind, and ask …

Why not try using magazines that are the way the pistol’s inventor designed them? I believe that those among us who shoot other makes and models of pistols usually use the original manufacturer’s magazines or other exact equivalents. Do they perhaps know something the rest of us don’t?

I will return to my cave and think upon this. Perhaps if I am lucky an apple will fall on my head.

[1911Tuner]

Fuff suggested:

Why not try using magazines that are the way the pistol’s inventor designed them?
___________________

You BETTER crawl in that cave, and go deep! Wilson and McCormick are gonna hunt you down after that brash statement...:D

Included in Jammer's overnight delivery is a proper magazine that he can use until he gets squared away with a few. I also did a little tweak on the front of the extractor hook to let it tolerate the occasional snapover without
snappin' the hook off.:cool: The test was to drop a round into the chamber...ease the slide forward until the extractor stopped against the rim...and pushing the slide with my thumb. It popped right over the rim
with about 10 pounds of force. Not so that it can be abused, mind you...
but just in case. See...I'm anal-retentive over reliability.:p

Welp...Gotta git crackin'!

Cheers all!

[1911Tuner]

I got an E-mail early this mornin' on Jammer's ramge trip. He reports:

150 rounds without an extraction problem (total of 400 to date since the repair) and one failure to go to battery from a slidelock reload. Likely due
to either the height of the barrel in relation to the incoming round, or the
extra tension on the top round due to the heavier magazine spring in the
stick that I loaned him. I didn't experience any failures to RTB, but our two frames may enough dimensional difference to place the barrel a few thousandths higher than it was with mine. I was able to feed the top round by pushing on the unsprung slide with my fingertip, so the extractor tension is good.

He also reports that locking the Wilson magazines in the gun with the slide in battery was easier because of the softer spring.

The most likely place to have a FTF or FTRTB is on the last round...and the
first round from a slidelock reload with a topped-off magazine, and using the slidestop to release the slide. The last round issue is solved...now we go to the top round problem.

His recoil spring may be due for a change, but given the ease which the gun feeds, it may or may not be a factor. It would have gone to battery
on my frame with a 10-pound spring or less.

Also the possiblity that the magazine doesn't lock as high into his frame
as it did into mine, and the top round didn't have as straight a shot at the chamber.

It could be a slightly tight chamber. It's already .003 inch shorter than minimum specs...It could be a little tighter as well. I didn't really focus on
the chamber dimensions beyond headspacing, and couldn't have done anything about it without a finishing reamer anyway...Mine was loaned
out 3 years ago, and I haven't seen it since. :rolleyes:

It could have been that one round was slightly out of spec on the OAL or
the bullet wasn't seated straight...or the rim diameter was a little oversized
and caused the extractor tension to be excessive...but only a slight chance.

It could be a stackup of everything mentioned above...and it could have been a fluke. More rounds downrange will tell the tale.

Jammer...Try a couple things for me, just for kicks. Next range trip:

Start with one up the spout and the magazine topped off to see if it feeds that top round during live fire.

Top off the magazine and slingshot the slide to chamber the first round.
it may just be a matter of slide travel and momentum. If it doesn't fail, you may want to get a Wolff 16-pound spring.

Standin' by...

[Old Fuff]

If you have a tight (or short) chamber, FTF and not going into battery can result when the chamber gets fouled after extensive shooting (over 100 rounds) if the chamber isn't cleaned. This is particularly so if one is using lead bulleted reloads. Since Jammer is going to do some experimenting I suggest brushing out the bore with a dry brass brush after each 50 rounds. Perhaps some might see this has cheating, but it might reveal some interesting information.

Bullseye match shooters know this, and it is not unusual to see one taking a quick swipe with a brush after each course of fire (60 rounds or so).

I'll say it again. Match dimensioned chambers do not belong in service pistols.

[1911Tuner]

Mornin' Fuff...Just crawlin' outta your cave?:cool:

I agree with your assessment 101%, but I'm inclined to think
it's somethin' else...and probably the difference in height that the barrel sits in his frame. I put the top end on my old Colt frame, and it gobbled
up 250 rounds like grease thru a Canada Goose. I shot it hot, dirty,
limp-gripped, sideways, upside down, and as fast as my bony finger would work the trigger. It just flat ran.

[Old Fuff]

You didn't drown ....:neener:

I agree that the difference in frames is probably the core cause - especially since the one you used was correctly dimensioned, and we can't be sure about the one from Spinger. But if the pistol has been shot much and cleaned not at all those tight chambers can be a contributor. Not going into battery is a common occurance with bullseye match pistols - especially those with light recoil springs that are set up to fire mid-range loads.

In any case I have no doubt that if you'd had the original frame to work with that pistol would be runnning without a hic-cup.

Anyway, some additional shooting combined with careful observation may reveal much. We shall see ...

[1911Tuner]

Yep...It could also be that the spring in the mag that he's got hasn't seen
much use, and is a little too strong...causes the top round to hesitate
just a little. Lotta things that it could be...all simple with one possible exception...The frame bed might be a little bit higher than mine. Anyway...
one hiccup isn't definitive. If it happens on a regular basis, then there's a
problem. We'll see how it goes with more firing. The initial problem is
solved though. Wish I coulda had the whole gun. Hope to resolve this
"No FFL" thing sometime soon...

[Jammer Six]

Here's some more information, that sounds like it got garbled in transmission.

I was using the mag you sent me when the FTRTB occurred. That day, I only used the mag you sent me and the two mags that came with the weapons, because both of them have the dimple in the follower.

I looked to see which mag was in the weapon when the failure occurred, saw John's mag, and thought "oh, he isn't going to like that..."

I'm certain about which mag it was.

'Fuff, I don't use lead bullets. I'm a member at an indoor range, and they don't allow lead bullets except for .22s. Something about lead in the air. Since I don't shoot .22s, I never paid any attention to the reason.

The thing about the Wilsons being easier to use because of the softer spring is they are easier to LOAD, that is, it's easier to push rounds into the magazine, not to push the magazine into the weapon.

I'll try the slingshot on a topped off mag. I guess I'll just have to force myself to go back to the range... :D

'Fuff, I don't think it's a match chamber. It's a milspec, because you and I agree that weapons should be loose enough to run, every time, and I only own weapons. I don't own any game guns, and never will.

I swear, I'm going to buy a Caspian frame-slide set, a Kart barrel, and build a weapon that will last, I really am...

[1911Tuner]

Gotta be the difference between the frames...The mag that you have was in the test group. Ran fine.

Did the failure to return to battery happen ONCE with that magazine...or every time you tried that magazine? Once is likely a fluke...Every time means that somethin's gotta change...and I'd guess that the spring tension is too high for your gun. If it happens again, clip exactly one coil off the spring and try it again. It'll still have enough oomph to work.

Standin' by...

[Jammer Six]

Only once, and it had many chances.

While you were messing around with the slide, I stripped the frame down, and cleaned everything.

I measured the trigger pull, and lightened the leaf spring a little.

Since I did that, I did the one-in-a-magazine drill, then the two-round-in-a-magazine, all the way up to full magazines.

Once I was sure I didn't have an automatic 1911, I started running full magazines, and I ran 150 rounds of full magazines.

So with three magazines, your mag would have seen at least 50 rounds, and, therefore, at least 8 last rounds during the regular course of fire, not counting the work ups, where it would have seen at least 7 more.

So it had at least 15 last rounds, and only the one malfunction. The malfunction occurred during the regular course of fire, not the work ups.

Everything was dropped from slide lock, not sling shot.

I'm going to the range now, and I'm going to run several first-shot-from-a-topped-off-mag runs, and I'm going to run several last round runs out of my Wilsons so I can pick up and study the brass.

I'll slingshot a bunch of first rounds, and I'll write everything up when I get back.

I'm now going to ignore everything that might negate my scientific reasons that make another trip to the range necessary. :cool:

[Old Fuff]

Jammer:

Springer calls that a "mil-spec" gun because it has the standard USGI/Colt grip safety, manual safety and hammer. After that it's questionable. With the possible exception of Colt all of the aftermarket barrels are being made with tight chambers, and usually marked "NM" on top of the chamber. Sometimes the only way to tell is with a go/no-go plug gage, and that's what Tuner used to check your chamber. Lead will foul a chamber quicker, but hardball will do the same if you do enough shooting without cleaning the bore. This is part of the reason I used an older Colt Government Model (service) barrel when I built up a Cooper style GSP (Gunsite Service Pistol).

I don't think the tight chamber is causing your jams, but I don't think its helping either. It's another thing your could do without unless target shooting is your goal.

[1911Tuner]

Jammer said:

I'm going to run several last round runs out of my Wilsons so I can pick up and study the brass.
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Good thing I sent ya that spare extractor...:D

[Jammer Six]

Just got back.

I took notes as I fired, and this is the result.

When I left, I had three mags that weren't Wilsons- Johns, and two mags that came from Springfield with the weapons when I bought them.

Of my 18 Wilsons, 13 are seven round, and five are eight round. The problem is that long ago, when I didn't know any better, I mixed the springs up, so now I have no idea which spring is in which mag. If there's a difference in the springs, I almost certainly have eight round springs in seven round mags. Today, I left the five with eight round followers at home.

I never load eight rounds in any of them, I use all of them as seven round mags.

I have four that are for carry and home defense duty, and are never used. The rest are range mags. Today was an exception, it was past time to rotate the carry ammo.

I took 230 rounds of Armscor FMJ and 30 rounds of Golden Sabre, which is my carry ammo, on Springfield's recommendation.

Before I started firing, I used slingshots to load the top round in John's mag 20 times, and in one of my Wilson range mags 20 times.

In John's mag, the 14th round failed to return to battery.
In my Wilson, the 8th round failed to return to battery.

I was bored, and I looked at all my mags, and decided there was no way I was going to do that with each mag. (Load, slingshot, drop mag, top mag, hunt around for dropped round, repeat.) Maybe someday when I'm really, really bored, and have already finished cleaning our woodshed. But probably not. Don't wait up for that report, because I'd have to build us a woodshed before I could clean it.

For the next test, I started with a round in the chamber, loaded a mag with seven rounds in it, and fired one shot.

Then I re-topped the mag, and repeated the test.

I ran 50 "1st shots" through John's mag, and there were nine failure to return to battery-
the 7th, 13th, 16th, 19th, 24th, 27th, 28th, 38th and 50th rounds.

I then switched to one of my Wilsons, chosen at random, and started running the test.

The Wilson had six failure to return to battery in the first fifteen rounds, and I suddenly realized that I didn't clean the weapon after yesterday's escapades. So I put some oil on the barrel and on the slide rails, and there were no more failures with the rest of the 50 Wilson rounds.

That result was so dramatic that I went back and repeated the test with another 50 rounds with John's mag, with one failure. On that failure, the mag was still full when I dropped it out, but a round had simply failed to load. Since there was still seven rounds in the mag, and the top round hadn't been moved at all, I concluded that I simply failed to seat the mag, and that there were, therefore, no failures during the run of fifty that could be blamed on anything other than the genius driving.

My conclusion from this is simple: my milspec doesn't like to be dirty. It didn't used to care, but in it's old age, apparently it's getting cranky.

I then put one round in John's mag, and fired it, and hunted down the brass.

I did that until I had fifteen pieces of brass from John's mag (which took more than fifteen shots, the range objects to my gallivanting down range, running between the bullets, chasing brass while the firing line is hot) to use as a baseline. John's mag, presumably, doesn't cause push feeds, so the brass shouldn't show push feed marks on it.

I then chose another Wilson, and fired until I had twenty pieces of brass from it with a slingshot load, and ten more made by dropping the slide lock.

All of the brass looked identical to me.

There is one scratch on each piece, a straight line on the face of the base.

If the face of the base of the brass were a clock, the line would run between the four and the six.

There are little tiny scuffs at that point on the rim, so I think it's the mark the extractor makes, but there's no gouge anywhere on the rim, and the thing that stands out to me is that the brass I picked up from John's mag, which shouldn't be causing push feeds (right?) is exactly the same as the brass I picked up from my beloved Wilson mag. Either they're push feed marks, and all the mags are causing them on every shot (these marks are present on every piece of brass I checked, not only from today but in the 20 gallons of brass I have stored in a garbage can) or they're not push feed marks, in which case the Wilson's aren't push feeding, either.

I then fired thirty rounds of Golden Sabre, out of my carry mags, with no malfunctions.

Several times during the session, I noticed that I could feel the weapon cycle- it felt like it was happening slowly, and on every malfunction, I saw that the round was headed into the chamber, and in every case, the base was already under the extractor when the malfunction occurred. Furthermore, racking the slide didn't always "want" to push the slide into battery.

I'm beginning to believe that 'Fuff is right. I'm beginning to think that the chamber is tight, and that coupled with my bad habit of skipping cleaning chores can lead to a chamber that doesn't like to feed rounds smoothly, and if the recoil spring is old (and this one has at least five thousand rounds on it, unless you changed it, John) then failures to return to battery can occur.

I can take pictures of the brass, if my description isn't clear enough, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get a clear enough shot of the marks on the brass.

Anyhow, that's my report, and I await the wisdom of the assembled Graybeards.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Jammer...That's a pretty extensive test. One question:

When you did the one-round-and-look-for-push-feed-marks
drill...Did you load one round in the magazine and fire it...or did you load two and fire one? Simply chambering one round from slidelock isn't going to produce a push-feed. That last round has to chamber at full speed
under the inertial forces generated by the recoil of the gun because it's those inertial forces that cause the round to jump the follower.

All righty then...The Springer's chamber is tight and has to be clean in order to run right. You've got two choices. Keep it clean, or find a smith who:
A...Knows what he's doin', and B...Has a finishing reamer that will set the chamber to Ordnance dimensions. I would suggest having his set the depth at .898-.900, since yours isn't that far off on the headspacing. Your
problem is likely that the chamber is tight from the mid-point to the shoulder. That's where most of'em run tight, and it's probably due more to worn tooling.

One other point:

I modified the front of those extractors to allow them to snap over the rim easy so that the hook wouldn't be stressed so much if an occasional push-
feed does occur...so you may have to look closely to see the mark if you do cause it to happen. The modification does NOT prevent extractor breakage
if the gun push-feeds on a regular basis...It only reduces the impact stress
on the hook so that it will tolerate it better, and won't break with the occasional push-feed. I'd suffest, therefore, that if you want to produce push-feeds in order to see what the mark looks like...that you get a new, unmodified extractor and use that one so that you won't break one of your fitted extractors.


Standin' by...

[Jammer Six]

drill...Did you load one round in the magazine and fire it...or did you load two and fire one? Simply chambering one round from slidelock isn't going to produce a push-feed.

I loaded them one at a time.

Those tests were a pain in the neck, and now I have to do them over... :banghead:

Well, fine. :cuss:

I'll go do it again. :fire:

Oh, wait, you mean I have to go to the range again? :D

I'm going to use what I learned today, at least I can make the testing go faster, and I'm going to clean the weapon thoroughly first. What I really need is some clever way to catch the brass before it hits the wall of the booth and bounces downrange, where I can't get it without the rangemaster getting all red in the face.

How do you measure the chamber size?

On another subject, I've been studying the extractors, and I have a couple questions.

How do you determine that the outside pad had to go so far down? Is there some minimum amount of movement that the hook has to make?

I can see how you set the front, hook pad- the bottom of the slot in the extractor has to reach the rim of the brass, and be tight enough to pass the shake test, but how do you determine how far back it has to move to release the brass?

[Old Fuff]

Jammer:

That 4:00 to 6:00 mark on the base of the case may be pressed in by a inperfection on the slide's breechface when the cartridge was fired. If so, it probably isn't of any consequence.

The more I look at this (from too far away) the more I think the recoil spring is playing a part. That, and I wonder if the slide stop hole is a hair out of place, which would effect the link when it pushes the barrel up into the lugs during the slide's final travel. This presumes of course that the barrel isn't being cammed into battery by the lower lug pressing on the slide stop pin. Anyway, look at the slide stop pin and see if you notice any burnish marks in the center/top of it.

This could explain why the top-half works fine on one frame, but not another.

[1911Tuner]

Jammer said:

Those tests were a pain in the neck, and now I have to do them over...
_________________

Jammer.........:scrutiny: Why are you tryin' to break my extractor?
___________________


I had to take the front pad down enough to let the rim get full tension from the bottom of the slot. Since the extractor channel was angled toward the right side of the slide, it had to come down about .005 inch under spec.
It was a nip and tuck exercise. You want full tension and keep the pad as close to about .125--.130 as you can. Too much off the pad, and the extractor hook will hang up in the breechface as you try to pull it out.
You'll notice that your spare extractor hangs up worse than the one that's in it. Another spec thing.

The question:

How do you measure the chamber size?

With a go/no-go gauge set for the depth/headspacing... I made my own set with an extra .895 plug. Yours was dead on .895 inch deep. A dial caliper does a fair job of determining the ID of the chamber, but can't measure it all the way to the shoulder to determine any taper that might exist. Best way is to drop a finishing reamer of known good dimensions into the chamber and see if ya get chips. Most recently manufactured barrels are a little undersized, and about a fourth of'em have a little taper toward the shoulder.
__________________
Aother one:

but how do you determine how far back it has to move to release the brass?

:confused: Don't understand what you mean...
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Fuff said:

This could explain why the top-half works fine on one frame, but not another.

Yep...Exactly my thoughts.

[JeffC]

So, is the recoil spring over 5000 rounds old?

Is the only brand ammo you have problems with Armscor?

[Dave Sample]

I have said several times that I throw these barrels away and replace them with something that works. I can ream it for you free of charge if you wish to mail it to me with return shipping enclosed. I think a $10.00 bill will suffice. Get my mailing address at www.1911patriotcop.us and let me know what you want to do.

[Jammer Six]

but how do you determine how far back it has to move to release the brass?

Don't understand what you mean...


What I mean is how do you determine how far to the right the extractor hook has to move during extraction?

How do you tell if the extractor has enough movement in it?

How do you tell if you have to remove more material from the outside center pad?

I'm not trying to break your extractor, I'm trying to find out if my vaunted Wilson mags cause push feeds. I promise to stop as soon as I see a push feed mark.

I think I'm going to take your suggestion, and do the test with a new extractor. A cheap extractor, because I'm getting tired of buying them.

(Rant Mode On)
The Wilsons were sold to me as the cat's meow- the very best there is. All the guys in both leagues I shoot in jump up and down and get all excited about them. If you don't have Wilson's, you have inferior mags.

And now I find out that they may be causing problems, and that the truth of the matter is that if you buy them, that means you don't know about the problems they may be causing. :fire:

It also means that Wilson is happily profiting from my ignorance, and that's a thing that really annoys me. In my business, I go as far out of my way as I have to specifically to protect my customers from their ignorance, and to make sure they're aware of the consequences of their decisions.

:cuss:

OK, that's enough of that. I'm a big boy, and if I made a mistake, there's lots of people out there who will buy the Wilsons from me. That's what eBay is for, isn't it?

(Rant Mode Off)

'Fuff, I'll check the slide stop for burnishing.

Jeff, yes, the recoil spring is old, and no, actually Armscor is some of the best ammo I've seen, no ammo-related problems that I've noticed, unlike American and Wolf.

[1911Tuner]

Jammer asked:

What I mean is how do you determine how far to the right the extractor hook has to move during extraction?

It'll move enough to let the case rim onto the breechface. After the case
has tnesion on it, it doesn't move any more other than maybe a little when the case smacks the ejector and it pivots/twists free.
______________________

How do you tell if the extractor has enough movement in it?

It's got enough...Trust me. :cool:

[Jammer Six]

It's got enough...Trust me

I do. That's not the issue. If I didn't, I wouldn't be asking you questions. :scrutiny:

I want to know for the future, because this probably isn't going to be the last extractor I have to deal with. I want to look at it, do whatever I need to do to it, and then be able to say "It doesn't move enough." or "It moves too much." and be right.

'Fuff, there is no "NM" marking on the top of my barrel. All it says is "SA .45 cal."

[1911Tuner]

Ah! Okay. As long as you don't grind the outboard pad clean into the stem of the extractor, you can't take too much. If you'll remove about .025 inch or so, you'll remove enough. The reduced pad is to allow the extractor to be bent into a bow shape without getting the middle of it into a hard bind.

Be careful not to overheat the steel. You'll kill the temper. I file most of it, and use the sanding drum for the final shape, and I never let it get hot.
About two or three light radiusing passes, and let it cool off.

The long curve is the key to making a 4340 steel extractor behave like a spring, and the tension comes from the whole length instead of from the center pads forward. Sorta the same principle as a long, light coil spring is better than a short, heavy one, even though the compressed load is about the same. The difference is in the WAY that the load is applied. I've monkeyed around with'em until I could get so much tension on a ball round that it wouldn't sag as it came out of the chamber, yet still feed almost like the extractor wasn't even in the gun. (Talk about some lively ejection!) It comes from not having true spring-tempered steel extractors to work with, and having to make do with what I had. Improvise...Adapt...Overcome, and all that hoorah.:cool:

Try polishing the top corner of the chamber throat a little with a piece of 600-grit paper on your fingertip. You may be getting a little stem bind
due to dimensional differences between the two frames. Don't get carried
away with it. A little goes a long way.

Luck!

[Jammer Six]

'Fuff, there isn't what I'd call a burnish mark on the slide stop, but there is a place on the top of it that is polished. There's also another pair of places that are polished on the slide stop pin.

Looking at the assembled weapon from the slide stop side, these polished places would be at 9:00- directly downrange from the centerline of the slide stop pin.

When I run my trained, Journeyman Carpenter fingers over all these polished places, I don't feel anything.

The slide stop is a stainless Wilson, and so the polished places don't show up like they might on a parkerized piece.

I only had time for 50 rounds today. It is, after all, a Sunday during football season, and the NFL is the only sport I watch.

I loaded a round from a mag, put one round in the mag, and fired.

I kept the brass that was chambered by the weapon firing, and then dropped the mag, loaded a new round, and repeated the test. Each brass I kept was a "last" round, and had been loaded by the weapon firing and cycling.

I think I have this test done right, now. :scrutiny:

I fired until I had four pieces of John's brass, and then ten pieces from a Wilson with a seven round follower, and ten pieces from a Wilson with an eight round follower.

There is no difference between the marks on the brass that I can see, and if I were to mix them up, you wouldn't be able to tell which brass was fired from the Metalform mag and which brass was fired from a Wilson mag.

Never discount the fact that I might be making a mistake, and where weapons are concerned, don't discount the fact that I might not be seeing something that's there.

I now think that the line on the face of the brass is being caused by the ejector, because I noticed that every piece has that line and that there is another small mark exactly opposite that line, a tiny mark on the forward angle of the extraction groove.

It looks to my untrained eye like the force of the round firing is forcing the brass back against the extractor, and the extractor is leaving a small mark on the angle of the brass, and then when the base hits the ejector, the ejector leaves another small mark on face of the base.

The reason I think it's the extractor and the firing is because I loaded several rounds out of different magazines by firing the weapon, and then cleared the weapon and examined the brass without firing the round, and none of the unfired rounds had either mark. The marks only happen when the round is fired.

Now that I think about it, though, there's no way to tell when the extraction groove angle is being marked, though. It could be when the brass slams back against the breechface as the round detonates, or it could be as the brass pivots out from under the extractor after the ejector knocks it free, in which case it's probably fine, right?

How on earth could you tell?

The only conclusion I can dream up is that none of the mags are push feeding. If any of them were push feeding, wouldn't the push feed mark happen as the round chambered, and, therefore, wouldn't the mark be present on an unfired round?

On each piece, from all mags including John's mag, there are tiny, tiny scuff marks in line with the mark on the angle- they have to be where the extractor hooks over the rim, they are opposite the mark I think the ejector is stamping on each round, and exactly in line with the marks I think the front of the hook is causing. These marks are also absent on unfired rounds.

However, there's certainly no moon shaped mark, although once in a while the mark on the forward angle has a small crescent to it, but when you run your fingernail over the rim at that point, you barely feel the marks I think are being caused by the extractor. They're small.

I wanted to see one good push feed mark, so I could determine, once and for all, whether my vaunted Wilson mags were causing push feeds, and so I would be able to recognize the marks in the future if I ever run into a weapon that push feeds. Studying brass seems to me like a skill that would be at least as handy as studying spark plugs used to be, and I want to know.

So I bought a new extractor at the range. Our range is a nice range, and the only indoor range in Greater Seattle that has managed to stay in business, so the extractor was a Chip McCormick, and it cost me $1,683.42. Sometimes, I wonder if the reason our range is still in business is because the prices are so darn high. :scrutiny:

Unfortunately, when I went to put it in, the firing pin slot wouldn't fit- the slot on the McCormick needs fitting before I'll be able to use it, and I didn't have my tools with me.

At first glance, the McCormick seems very similar to the Browns, even down to the small relief angle cut on the bottom of the slot.

So there you have it. I don't see the marks, but I have the brass separated, and if you want, I'll send them to you, John, and you can look them over, but I don't see any difference.

The one thing that I did notice today is that this weapon likes to be clean. It never hesitated, and never even came close to malfunctioning.

I'm concerned about that mark on the angle of the brass, though. I think the tip of the extractor is hitting it, and during firing, that means it would be hitting it hard, doesn't it?

As always, I await your wisdom.

[Old Fuff]

Such fun .... :neener:

You get to shoot, and we get to think ... :uhoh:

It's not uncommon to see ejector-marked brass, especially if the case is on the soft side. It would help to know, does your gun have a standard USGI ejector, or one with an extended nose?

There is a remote (I emphasize “remote”) chance that the slide stop pin hole in the frame is slightly mislocated, or that the bottom lug on the barrel is rubbing unevenly on the slide stop pin, or the link is slightly long. What ever it is, I think it has to do with a difference between the frame that Tuner used (which I think was an older Colt) and the one you have that’s original to the gun. When your top-unit is on Tuner’s frame it runs like gangbusters, or at least it does with his magazines. Dirty chamber and all of the rest didn’t matter. It doesn’t take much of a difference to screw things up if the “difference” is at a critical place. Sometimes the cause is obvious and easily solved, and sometimes it can be a little (Beep!! Can’t say that on The High Road …). However at some point a light bulb will go on and that will be the end of it.

Try this: It should be done with dummy cartridges. If you don’t have any remove the hammer from the frame. Do Not Cut Any Corners Here!! Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

Remove the recoil spring assembly. Insert a loaded magazine and hand-cycle the slide while feeling for resistance as you move the slide into battery. If anything is binding you can feel it. You can feel the cartridges coming up and under the extractor. You can feel the magazine lips releasing the round, and you can feel the bullet hit the feed ramp and continue into the chamber. Of course there will be resistance, but what you are looking for is unexpected resistance. You may learn a lot, and it won’t cost you any money – although it would be a good idea to buy or make (handload) some dummy cartridges.

Apparently Springfield’s barrel vendor is supply barrels with tight (or short) match-grade chambers without marking it over the chamber.

[1911Tuner]

Jammer, I think the mark on the angle is happening during ejection. You may not see push-feed dings with one of the extractors that I tweaked
because I modified the nose to help cam the extractor open in a kinder, gentler way to reduce impact stress in case it did push-feed.

The top end didn't seem to care if it was clean or dirty, hot or cold, slingin' oil or dry as a popcorn fart when I shot it on my frame...a VERY old Colt
GI frame. I shot it while holding it barely cradled on top of my hand, gripping it loosely with my thumb and trigger finger only...and it ran.
Upside down...literally....sideways...slow-fire and as fast as I could work the trigger. Not so much as a weak ejection. I think it's that the barrel is sitting higher in the saddle on your frame than it was on mine, and the round has to climb a steeper angle before it can break over and chamber.
The stroner spring in my magazine may be slowing it down just enough to
stop it short of battery...A fresh recoil spring will probably help. ANother point is that the slide to frame fit was failry loose with my frame...I didn't
measure it, but I'd guestimate it to be around .005 inch of play in both planes.

[Jammer Six]

'Fuff, I'm going to try your tricks. I have lots of dummy rounds, both the plastic kind and some the guys in my leagues made up for me. They are so I can fool myself, and practice clearing jams.

The only problem with them is that the bullet gets driven into the brass, and they get shorter and shorter.

Anyway, I'll try the hand cycling.

John, I'm off to read everything I can find about springs.

Thanks, guys, I appreciate all of it.

[1911Tuner]

FWIW, my standard test for feed reliability is to load a magazine one round short of capacity and lock it into the gun with the recoil system removed, but otherwise assembled as usual...Pull the slide all the way to the rear, and push the slide to battery semi-briskly with my finger against the back of the slide.

If I have to push so hard that the first distal joint hyper-extends a little too much...I'm not happy with it and will keep working with the gun until it will
feed and go to battery under finger pressure. Jammer's top end passed this test on my frame perfectly. The barrel is sitting higher in the saddle
on his frame, and the feeding round is entering the throat at a steeper angle.