FrontSight questions


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twoblink
October 6, 2004, 04:06 AM
I just finished watching both the video presentation and news..

It seemed a bit too hollywood.. but that aside, what are people's thoughts on the FrontSight Resort and community??

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atek3
October 6, 2004, 05:35 AM
Search the archives here, at TFL, and at http://www.polite-society.org/forum/index.php

People say lots of different stuff.

Ask me what I think over PM.

atek3

dave3006
October 6, 2004, 08:43 AM
Run, don't walk, to Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or anywhere else.

Fly320s
October 6, 2004, 09:02 AM
If I ignore the sales pitch and the hollywood hype, I really enjoyed my time there; the training I received was very good.

Yes, they are trying to sell you a membership in their planned community. I like the idea of the "gunners" community, but the strong sales pitch is too much for me. I don't care for the location either; I prefer trees to cactus.

As atek3 said, there are plenty of threads here and at TFL.

If you do decide to go, don't pay retail. Do a search for the FrontSight certificates that people sell.

Skunkabilly
October 6, 2004, 10:41 AM
Haven't been to FrontSight, but ITTS is a half hour from your previous residence in the LA area....

Average Guy
October 6, 2004, 02:47 PM
It seemed a bit too hollywood

TOO Hollywood? The last thing we need is another gun video shot on someone's VHS camcorder. It's about time someone (besides Lenny Magill) raised the bar.

It's like the difference between HBO and IFC.

444
October 6, 2004, 04:35 PM
As was mentioned, there have been plenty of posts on here about it in the past.

One thing I caution you on, as I do on any subject. Read the previous threads and listen to the ones from people who have ACTUALLY BEEN THERE. You will find that probably about 1/10 the number of people who post on the thread know what hey are talking about and the rest are talking out of their....................... talking through their hat.
If you keep this in mind, I think you will find that the vast majority of posts on a given subject are from people who have no personal experience to base their post on. You will also probably find that the people who are the most vocal, and the most negative usually carry the day over those who actually have something of substance to say.

atek3
October 6, 2004, 04:42 PM
i've been there and have no beefs with their quality of instruction, statements of others not withstanding.

atek3

John Ross
October 6, 2004, 06:04 PM
I took their 3 day Defensive Handgun course and was favorably impressed with the uniformly high quality of their instructors.

JR

Gun Wielding Maniac
October 6, 2004, 09:22 PM
I went to the four day defensive handgun class this past December. I thought the Front Sight instructors were extremely professional and I actually liked their teaching style a bit more then I did the instruction at Gunsite. Front Sight's facilities are not nearly as well developed, however.

Drjones
October 7, 2004, 12:02 AM
My thoughts, though I have no basis in reality for them:

It is a pretty reputable school, and the only complaints I've read anywhere on the forums (depending on how seriously you want to take forum advice) is that they "push" membership and more sales on their students.

No real negatives about their training.

I personally think that if you went there, you'd be better trained than the VAST majority of gun owners (including many here) and possibly even better trained than some LEO's.


That's nothing to sneeze at.

Andrew Wyatt
October 7, 2004, 02:29 AM
THere are better schools for less money.


OPS, for starters.

Average Guy
October 7, 2004, 03:48 AM
Been there three times. Instruction was top-notch. But their "list" prices are nearly 4x everyone else's. (Which may be part of the membership push.)

I also speak from experience when I say: Don't depend on Internet advice to guide your decisions. (Regret #1,238 in a series.)

esheato
October 7, 2004, 03:57 AM
I've also attended a Front Sight class. Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86604) is my review.

I won't go so far as to say the training was bad. I did have some qualms, but in essence: Any training is good training.

Definitely do not pay full price, check out Ebay or people on THR sell certificates for your first class....In fact, I think I saw one the other day for $100.

Check out the link, 56 responses chocked full of information.

Ed

444
October 7, 2004, 07:45 AM
Andrew wyatt, what were your specific gripes when you were there ?

"But their "list" prices are nearly 4x everyone else's."
According to Frontsight's website, the cost of a four day defensive handgun class is $1200.
According to Gunsite's website, their 250 class (Basic Defensive Pistol) which is a five day class is $1114,
According to Thunder Ranch's website (Texas), their five day courses are all $980.

GSB
October 7, 2004, 12:08 PM
i've been there and have no beefs with their quality of instruction, statements of others not withstanding.

Ditto. The training is solid and professional. Unfortunately, some aspects of the personalities involved that are not related in any meaningful way to the quality of the training itself are what tend to predominate in Front Sight threads. If you can ignore the sales pitches and community development controversies and concentrate on the shooting aspect of it, it's a good school (and yes, I've been there).

twoblink
October 7, 2004, 12:12 PM
From all that I've read, it seems nobody has had beef with the quality of instruction they've received, just the HomeShoppingClub advertisement they keep pressing on you...

Average Guy
October 7, 2004, 03:18 PM
"But their "list" prices are nearly 4x everyone else's."
According to Frontsight's website, the cost of a four day defensive handgun class is $1200.
According to Gunsite's website, their 250 class (Basic Defensive Pistol) which is a five day class is $1114,
According to Thunder Ranch's website (Texas), their five day courses are all $980.


Uh, yeah 444, I was a little too broad there. Specifically, in my case, I've found that attending local schools in SoCal (ITTS, FTA) would cost around $125 to $150 per day (OK, so "2x my local schools"). I also wouldn't have to drive to Pahrump and pay for a hotel room, making it far more cost effective to stay local. Plus FS keeps announcing imminent price increases...

Thatisall.

GSB
October 7, 2004, 03:35 PM
Plus FS keeps announcing imminent price increases

You'd better buy your Platinum membership post-haste!

Andrew Wyatt
October 7, 2004, 03:42 PM
Andrew wyatt, what were your specific gripes when you were there ?

When they were in bakersfield, they shafted one of the local people who does training who is a friend of mine. Also, as far as I last heard they only have trainers at FS who's only training is the front sight instructors course.

Correia
October 7, 2004, 03:57 PM
I have a couple of certificates for sale here for real cheap if anybody is interested.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1280730#post1280730

Johnl and I won them in our state IDPA match, but don't have the time to go down to Vegas before the end of year. Twoblink, send me a PM if you are interested.

Dave Williams
October 7, 2004, 04:31 PM
I am a real person who has been to FS, not an anonymous Internet trouble maker.

It is good training for a good price.

Pick up one of the certs mentioned and go out there and train, I'm sure you'll have a blast, like me and the other 250 people did who were training at FS the weekend I was there.

Dave Williams

22rimfire
October 7, 2004, 08:12 PM
Would someone comment on the type of facilities they have there. The last time I looked on the FS web site there were a lot of Phase 1, Phase 2, etc. plans and artist conceptions, but NO actual pictures of real property.

Do they have clean, modern classrooms? Central air in them? Indoor bathrooms/plumbing? What other kind of structures do they have. Do some or all of the ranges have covered shooting positions?
What kind of shoot or "kill" houses are there?

TIA and Cheers,

M

ClonaKilty
October 7, 2004, 08:57 PM
I was just there last week.

Do they have clean, modern classrooms? Central air in them?

Yes, a large A/C'd classroom opened in July.

Indoor bathrooms/plumbing?

No, still portapotties, but they are cleaned every day.

What other kind of structures do they have.

* A very comprehensive rope & rappel course -- most extensive in the country is complete and courses run on them regularly.
* Large network of underground tunnels for training no / low light, at any time. Complete and frequently used.
* Large expanse of land with set-up outdoor simulators
* 1000 yard precision rifle range.
* Occasionally you can do a shoot scenario from a helicopter w/an M16 (full auto). This is extra and not really a class, but a "fun shoot."

* Phase II's driving track (for survival driving courses) is graded and awaiting asphalt. Curriculum is complete, instructors are being vetted and equipment organized.

Do some or all of the ranges have covered shooting positions?

About 5 are covered out of around 15 or so (that's rough estimate). In a standard 4-day class you probably will shoot at an uncovered range. So go when it's cool!

What kind of shoot or "kill" houses are there?

I've personally been through 4 different shoot houses, though I think there are many more. These are standard simultaed "house" layouts with walls, doors to go through, window cut outs etc. Bad or good guys (photorealistic targets) will pop up and you must engage. I've also been on 4 different "outdoor" simulators in the rifle/shotgun classes.

edited to add: There had been complaints that FS wasn't building up its facilities at all. It is probably more accurate to say they have been building them, but later than was originally stated.

And by the way: you do not have to pick up brass at FS :)

Do yourself a favor: get a cheap "gray" certificate and go. Even if it's the only time you go to FS you will have had world class firearms training for very little money.

Average Guy
October 7, 2004, 11:01 PM
Oh, ClonaKiLty! :o

And all this time I thought it was ClonaKitty. (Which, when you think about it, is a pretty cool name.)

ClonaKilty
October 8, 2004, 11:43 AM
And all this time I thought it was ClonaKitty.

Oh man, if I could change anything I would change my THR name (I also use this at GlockTalk, Falfiles, etc.). When I selected it I thought it was cool because it was so obscure (and reflective of my Irish roots). But it turns out that its obscurity makes it hard to read, pronounce and remember! :(

NIGHTWATCH
October 11, 2004, 08:49 AM
Are there any places equal to FS in the northeast?

Preacherman
October 11, 2004, 08:57 AM
Nightwatch, you've got one of the finest schools in the country in New Hampshire - Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. I've taken LFI-1 through LFI-3. Highly recommended. See www.ayoob.com for more course details.

NIGHTWATCH
October 11, 2004, 09:37 AM
Thanks Preacherman.

Harry Tuttle
October 11, 2004, 10:48 AM
At what clearing $tage does the e-meter come out? (http://www.dianahsieh.com/scientology/)

Daedalus
October 11, 2004, 11:13 AM
Thetan-shaped pepper poppers?

NIGHTWATCH
October 12, 2004, 01:45 AM
If it saves the 2A and keeps weapons in the hands of future Americans, so be it. Scientology is pretty popular in Hollywood. And he has a national vision using mass media. Something pro-rkba orgs have been reluctant or unwilling to do.

And the man has this right: We are the make or break generation. There is nothing left to compromise.

Im all for him.

GSB
October 12, 2004, 05:46 AM
Well at least my statement about FS threads heading off into non-training related issues has held true. I'm surprised it went this far before Scientology came up.

Look, I spent four days there, saw the guy every day during the lunch break, and never knew he was supposedly a Scientologist until long after the course was over. You are not going to get a Dianetics class there, okay? You are getting firearm instruction and a moderately annoying sales pitch for real estate that's very easy to ignore unless you happen to be a lot wealthier than I am.

There are a lot of people with what I consider some fairly odd belief systems out there, but unless they are trying to sell me a Watchtower or get me to drink suspicious Kool Aide, they can worship in the First Church of Elvis as far as I'm concerned. I realize that the religion/politics/sexual orientation/whatever of people with whom they have business dealings is important to some people, but in this case it has absolutely no discernable affect on the quality or nature of the training delivered by the school.

Now, there have been some legitimate and troubling issues outside of the training that might cause one to consider alternate venues on principle -- I'm not going to rehash them here (just remember that in internet forums anyone can say anything and there are often axes being ground on both sides of any given issue). A search of the TFL archives should turn them up (I believe there was one related to an incident on GlockTalk that kicked off quite a discussion). My point is, if you are just interested in the training and have no interest in all the side issues, that's what you'll get out of FS.

Would I go there again? No -- for personal reasons unrelated to the school and because I'd likely want to go to Thunder Ranch and Gunsite first to see what they have to offer -- but that's not in any way a criticism of the instruction I received there, which I consider excellent.

444
October 12, 2004, 11:42 AM
.

Harry Tuttle
October 12, 2004, 12:18 PM
http://www.watchman.org/sci/scientologymafia.htm

Controversy continues to rage around Scientology, due mostly to the totalitarian and abusive nature of its practices. The evolution and history of Scientology raises serious and fundamental questions about freedoms and protections of religion and even what or who defines a religion. Scientology is an anomaly on even a diverse religious landscape. It does, in fact, involve religious belief (in what most outsiders would regard as science fiction). But that belief appears to have been built chiefly as a cover for exploitive commercial operations.

Scientology's history of terror and abuse appears to be the result of its founder's delusion and paranoia. Evidence of L. Ron Hubbard's delusional character was well documented in court where the trial judge concluded, "The organization [Scientology] clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, LRH [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements." (Church of Scientology v. Armstrong, No. C420153, California Supreme Court, 1984)._

Scientology is governed by inviolate policies or "Scriptures" of L. Ron Hubbard which, when followed, have produced an extraordinary record of institutionalized abuse, financial exploitation, harassment, intimidation, civil and criminal convictions of its members, leaders, and even the church itself._

One critic, Reader's Digest senior editor Eugene Methvin, experienced serious harassment by Scientology. He has aptly charged, "Scientology is far more than mere religion…[it is] a multi-national racket masquerading as a religion." ("Scientology: the Sickness Spreads," Reader's Digest, September, l981, reprint, p.2).


also check out www.Xenu.net and read what $cientology does to people

Fly320s
October 12, 2004, 02:19 PM
also check out www.Xenu.net and read what $cientology does to people

Scientology doesn't do anything to people. People do it to themselves. Just like any other religion or belief.

Even if Piazza is the head guru at Scientology, the other employees and instructors probably are not involved at all.
------
Twoblink originally asked about the resort and community.

I can tell you that the training there is top-notch. The resort is still being built and will probably take a few more years to be finished (my opinion).

There really is no community because no one lives there, yet.

If you want excellent gun training, then FrontSight will suffice. If you want to move in tomorrow to live in the advertised community, you will be disappointed.

GSB
October 12, 2004, 03:17 PM
also check out www.Xenu.net and read what $cientology does to people

Which has exactly what to do with whether the instruction given by FS is any good or not, which was the original question of the thread? If someone has a moral problem with what Piazza does with the money FS takes in, then he or she doesn't have to go, just as you don't have to patronize Walmart, Microsoft, or whatever particular organization bothers you. You can even boycott Tom Cruise and John Travolta movies if you really want to make sure none of your money goes to the Scientologists.

But it has nothing to do with the very narrow question of whether the instruction at the school is any good or not. It is, and it is not, from personal experience, used as a platform to market Scientology to anyone.

Harry Tuttle
October 12, 2004, 03:58 PM
actually, the original question was:
It seemed a bit too hollywood.. but that aside, what are people's thoughts on the FrontSight Resort and community??

BadWolf
October 12, 2004, 04:58 PM
Hey TwoBlink,

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I see someone brought up the scientology thing again, so I thought I'd chime in.

I am on their instructor staff
I am a first family member
I've been affiliated with them since Bakersfield days in 1998

I have never, ever, even caught wind of anything about scientology being mentioned or otherwise either in class, instructor meetings, anything.

IF the founder or anyone else is involved with scientology, they certainly keep it to themselves.

Are they pushy about memberships, money, etc? Yes, it can seem so, but they are trying to run a business, get a resort built without outside funding (and control!) and they are on a mission to have as many folks get some training as they can and to change the image of guns and gun ownership. I think its pretty cool, actually, that other than just making some money, they also are taking on a more fundamental issue and complementing the fight for RKBA which is a fight we're going to lose if we don't get active. As a new dad I certainly don't want to see the day come where my son no longer lives in a free country with the right to protect himself and his family. And as a resident of California, where a handful of victim disarmament ninnies in sacramento are able to do so much gun grabbing, I see the need even more painfully.

I (and the others I know from Front Sight) also do not diss the other shooting schools. I think there are a lot of great schools out there and the important thing is getting some reputable training and learning as a complement to firearms ownership.

Regards,
-Badwolf

GSB
October 12, 2004, 07:54 PM
I (and the others I know from Front Sight) also do not diss the other shooting schools. I think there are a lot of great schools out there and the important thing is getting some reputable training and learning as a complement to firearms ownership.

I can vouch for that. Some humor was had at the expense of someone at an unnamed school who put a .223 round through his hotel room wall while "dry firing", but no criticism was ever made of the school itself, nor was the school named.

I can say that the instructors I saw could practice what they preached. My main instructor was a man named John Woo (seriously), and he was a precision shooting machine with a great teaching style. This place is a good school for firearm instruction -- whatever other issues there may be, it is that.

GSB
October 12, 2004, 07:57 PM
actually, the original question was:

Well Harry, you're right. My mistake. I think I had this confused with an FS thread on Strategy and Tactics that was posted recently. Sorry about that.

444
October 12, 2004, 08:58 PM
"My main instructor was a man named John Woo (seriously), and he was a precision shooting machine with a great teaching style. "

I mentioned several times on this board that I thought the basic handgun course was outstanding. In my class, the rangemaster was John Woo. If I am not mistaken, he is a ********** doctor. He was superb. He was a truely great instructor and did a little shooting that amazed me.
We had one of those picture targets with a guy with a shopping bag in his hands. I don't remember exactly but I believe you could see a gun in the bag or maybe he had the gun in his hand but his hand was still inside the bag. I don't think the guy was facing you, he was turned to the side. Whatever, anyway, The object of the drill was to only shoot the targets that presented an immediate threat of deadly force. This target was kind of a question. A lot of people didn't think this guy presented justification for deadly force. Whatever the picture was, John Woo demonstated how this guy could immediately take you under fire. He stood facing 90 degrees to the target and kind of whipped his pistol out of the holster at the target. It was like he was just raising his arm at a 90 degree angle to his body. It would be similar to you throwing a ball underhand off to the side of your body. He did this about four times and had a group on the target that were all COM and could be covered with your hand. I didn't describe that very well, I guess you had to be there, but it was very impressive to me. And while he was doing this, he was going right along with his lecture.

drclark
October 12, 2004, 09:26 PM
I just returned from the 4 day defensive handgun course this past weekend (oct 7-11).

I can also vouch for the top-notch quality of the instruction I recevied. All of the instructors on my range were very friendly and helpful. What really impressed me was their willingness to spend individual one-on-one time with students that needed extra help. The other thing that was impressive was their ability to emphasize and enforce range safety procedures in a positive manner. Whenever there was an observed violation (such as covering your support hand while drawing from the holster) they would stop the drill and correct the student without yelling or being condescending.

To answer a comment earlier in this thread, most of the instructors there had an extensive firearms history beyond front-sight training. The instructors I met had extensive backgrounds in law enforcement or in the military before becomming a front-sight instructor.

There were lots of range drills live and dry. The first 2 days focused more on instruction and dry practice. There were alot of first-timers in my class, and everybody felt a little overwhelmed after day 2, but everybody was doing better by the end of day 3. The live fire drills really pick up on day 3 & 4. I shot ~500 rounds over the 4 days with at least 250 on day 4 alone.

The things I really enjoyed were the tactical scenarios in the shoot houses (we did 3 different scenarios), the man-on-man shooting contest and the night shoot. The skills test at the end of the course is very hard and humbling.

I found the schedule very intense. Frontsight is about a half-hour drive from Pahrump. You're getting up at 5:30 - 6:00 am at the latest to make sure you have enough time to get to breakfast and drive to the facility to be there by 8:00 am (7:00 am the first day). You typically don't leave until 6:30-7:00 pm if you stay for the evening lectures. By the time you get back to Pahrump, eat dinner, clean your weapons, and do some dry practice, it might be 10:00-11:00 pm before you get to bed. Also on day three, they have the night shoot, so you are there till at least 8:30 pm (depends on when it gets dark).

It was very windy when I was there the very fine blowing dust made weapons cleaning a must every night. The weather started out very warm on days 1 & 2 but a cold front moved in and it got chilly on days 3 & 4 (which thankfully was when we started using concealment garments). If you go, definitely check the weather forecast in advance.

The lectures that covered the moral, legal impacts of gun ownership/self-defense and the mental awareness lecture were excellent and are a must for any new gun owner. All the lecturers knew their material well and were able to present their material clearly yet with enough humor and/or personal experiences to hold the audience's attention.

As mentioned earlier, there is now a permanent classroom facility that is air conditioned. There are no food/cafeteria facilites so you must bring your own lunch. The days are long and you need to make sure you bring enough to eat to get through the day. Restroom facilities are porta-johns, but they are the cleanest porta-johns I've ever seen. There also appeared to be stacks of water-main pipe, fire-hydrants, etc around, so it would appear that full plumbing is to be installed in the very near future. I actually liked the remote and primitive feel to the facility.... I think it gave the entire experience a more serious, "down-to-business" environment, but that's just my opinion.

They do try to sell you a membership when you are there, but it didn't seem overbearing to me. They have various levels of which give you access to different selections of courses for free for life. The highest membership also includes a house-plot for those who wish to be a part of the planned community/resort. I feel the entry level memberships are worth the money if you plan on attending more than one course (or re-attending courses). I think the entry level course would pay for itself if you attend at least 5 4-day courses.

I did not pick up on any scientology or cult like qualites exhibited by the instructional staff or any of the other students. What I did get was that the instructional staff was very professional, friendly and only seemed concerned that the students improved over the course of the class.

If you can find a gray certificate for less than $300, I would definitely jump on the opportunity.

my $.02
drc

-- edited to fix my blatant mis-spelling of Pahrump

444
October 12, 2004, 09:35 PM
Nice review of the course.
I agree with you. That end of course final exam is very tough. Shooting everything from concealment is not easy and is far different than the one other handgun course I have taken.

By the way, it is Pahrump.

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