Bullet in my frikin wall!!!


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Newt
October 6, 2004, 10:30 AM
Just to give you a quick description, I'm single and I just bought my first house last year. I've remodeled it and have repained pretty much every wall in the house. I live in a very small town; population not more than 400. It's a very rural area. Pretty much everyone around owns at least a 22 rifle. I sometimes have guests over, but I'm always there whenever they're there. It couldn't have happened by a ND while I was at home by any guest. It would've had to come from somewhere else. Now that that's out of the way, here goes...

So I was doing some cleaning last night about midnight when I found a 22 bullet burried up in the wall of my kitchen. By the way the bullet is burried up in the wall, I couldn't determine a trajectory. I know it's somewhat recent, because I repainted those walls just a few months ago. The way it looks, it would've had to come from the same direction the wall is running. I'm going to look at the exterior walls in the next few days to see if I can find any 22 sized holes out there. Also, I'm going to take some digital pics of it to post up so you can understand better. Neighbor kids?... distant hunters?... any input?

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JamisJockey
October 6, 2004, 10:38 AM
Neighbor kids?... distant hunters?... any input?

Any of the above. A .22 will travel an amazing distance, even when fired 'flat' at a target. Imagine firing it into a tree at a squirrel and missing.....you're talking 1 1/2 miles later or more before it hits the ground.

TRDBucket
October 6, 2004, 10:43 AM
Will a .22 have the ability to penetrate siding, insulation, and a decent amount of drywall at ranges exceeding even 500yds?

Not sure, but I'd doubt it, but I could be wrong.. (seems like I'm saying that a lot lately :evil: )

JamisJockey
October 6, 2004, 10:51 AM
I would have to say yes. Siding isn't very thick, insulation barely counts, and drywall won't stop a freakin bb sometimes.
Incidentally, on one of my last shooting trips we found a car hood near our little shooting area. I was able to put 10/10 on the hood at about 500 yards with my 10/22. It took very little point of aim elevation to accomplish this.

Newt
October 6, 2004, 11:07 AM
Through an exterior wall and then into an interior wall? The more I think about this, the less I think that's the less likley route. Come to think of it, the bullet had almost no mushroom or deformation. I'll take some pics as soon as I can to show. I have left my windows open the last few days though, since the weather's been so nice. Maybe? I'm reaching now.

Mal H
October 6, 2004, 11:24 AM
Well, if it didn't come from inside, and it didn't come through the outside wall (highly unlikely for a .22LR), it had to come through a window or an open door. Assuming you have screens on your windows, have you checked them for small holes?

Newt
October 6, 2004, 11:32 AM
I'll check the screens on the windows I had open as well as the exterior walls. My curiosity is up now. I have to figure this thing out. Any other input?


Again, I'll post pics up as soon as possible.

JamisJockey
October 6, 2004, 11:40 AM
Any other input?
Yea. I seriously doubt it came from inside. A .22lr will penetrate several layers of drywall and/or several 2x4's at moderate range (up to 100 yards). Seen it with my own eyes more than once.

I still believe its possible for it to travel longer distances and penetrate an exterior home wall. Most home walls are a layer of siding, one layer of pressboard, some insulation, and an interior drywall or plaster wall. Obviously, it could travel through an open door/window, so IMHO the abscence of a hole in the exterior would surely mean it did so.

larry_minn
October 6, 2004, 01:47 PM
Was it soft lead? Could it be a .223? If it didn't go thru open window and was fired from outside IMO it must be other then .22LR. Any chance a friend is playing with you and dinged something and stuck a fired .22 bullet in as a joke and forgot to tell you?

roo_ster
October 6, 2004, 01:59 PM
Or how about an AD with one of those CCI CB .22 shorts or .22longs? They are quiet enough to use w/o hearing protection. Even better, a CB used in a suppressed rifle/pistol. You'd hear the action cycle, but not much else.

Newt
October 6, 2004, 03:15 PM
If it was a friend, it's not a good joke by putting a hole in my wall.:eek: Seriously, I don't think any of my friends would pull something like this on me, but who knows.

It was soft lead. No jacket. Definatly not a FMJ. No sir, this is a 22LR. Pictures will show better.

Matt G
October 6, 2004, 04:50 PM
Interesting. I've had to trace a trajectory through a window of an errant .22 bullet before, and found that it had been fired from the Farm To Market road that ran in front of the house. Scared the old lady living there to death, as it passed over her TV while she was watching it. I weighed the bullet after finding it, and established that it was a .22 bullet, but there was no way to get any rifling off of it-- the soft lead was 'way too mashed up.

My college roommate, about 9 years ago, was practicing dry-firing his SMLE, and then got into magazine-changes, and then accidentally touched off a 180g Remington SP .303 in our living room. It went through the panelling, through the exterior wall wood siding of our house, over the fence, and into the house next door. The bullet entered the corner of the house, making a nice keyhole in the outside siding, and a slight bulge as it ran along the interior wall. We ran outside (how did I get involved in this? I didn't pull the trigger!!) and checked the house. The neighbors came out. The owner, a carpenter, said he was just glad that it hadn't hit his new Nissan Pathfinder, parked out front. I was thinking "what about your son, who was on the bed under the wall that the bullet hit?!?" My roommate dropped off case upon case of cold beer for the dad and plate upon plate of fresh cookies for the kids for a month. Somehow *I* got recruited to spackle and paint the holes. :confused:

You know, this really would be a good on-topic discussion for General Discussion. I'm going to kick it over there.

--Matt G

sendec
October 6, 2004, 05:34 PM
I had a neighbor hole my house with an "unloaded" .45 ACP ball round. Through and through, but I live in a cheesy house.

jefnvk
October 6, 2004, 06:04 PM
A few months back, I was shooting off some 8mm. On bullet deflected, and took down a huge branch 30 feet up in the air. Of course, I immediately stopped firing, never heard of anyone's house getting hit, but I would guess something like this.

Standing Wolf
October 6, 2004, 06:22 PM
Oh, gosh! Something or other about being sure what's behind one's target?

popeye
October 6, 2004, 09:06 PM
I know a woman living in Chicago that sleeps in her bathtub on the 4th of July.

Ryan1021
October 6, 2004, 10:12 PM
Would a bath tub stop a round from penetrating?

Mal H
October 6, 2004, 10:30 PM
Depends on the tub, of course. But, most older tubs are made of very heavy gauge cast iron. So you get two layers of iron between you and the bullet. If the tub is on an upper floor, you have an additional advantage of less probability of a bullet coming in over the top.

I know a whole city that sleeps in their tubs at night - DC.

J Miller
October 6, 2004, 10:49 PM
Many years ago my grandmother, aunt and cousin lived out in the desert in central AZ. Grandmother had her trailer, and my Aunt and cousin lived in theirs.

Grandmother had an ancient IJ .22 Revolver.
Shot a snake. Bullet aimed down at the ground. Hit the snake, passed through the snake ricosheting (sp) off the ground.
50+ yards later it passed through the plate glass window of aunts mobile home.
Then through heavy drapes.
Then through 2 internal walls.
Then through a double sided sliding closet door.
Came to rest on a shelf in the closet.

Scared the crap out of my cousin who was in the front room watching TV. Bullet passed between him and the TV at just over head level.

Strangely, with all the impacts, the bullet was in decent shape.

So the only way to determine where it came from is to trace it back.


Joe

Tharg
October 7, 2004, 03:47 AM
Don't now nothin about how far a bullet will penetrate multiple mediums...

but (heh)

its often come to my attention that the denser the material - the more energy it takes to punch through it.

Take a book - a good paperback book/telephone book will soak up huge amounts of energy. Layers ya know - same way a "bulletproof" vest works.

Sheetrock is ... well - not dense - and very lil tensile strength - i'd assume less the 22lr was a hollowpoint that it wouldn't soak up much energy - and even then... only so much once the hollowpoint "filled up"

Tin or siding - once again - isn't known for its impact resistance - specially on a small diameter thing. The only example i might have for this is renesiance(sure i'm spelling that wrong) armour. Chain was decent against arrow heads - but nearly pointless against crushing weapons... plate was ok aganst crushing - but not so good against high velocity arrowheads. (obviously simplifying) point being that just cause "its metal" or worse... if its plastic siding - its not gonna take up a lot of the force of the round.

Is the outside of your house brick? Brick would have soaked up a LOT of energy - its not so dense - but compacts well. (obviously not talking about lone bricks on a range) Don't know that a 22lr fired from distance would make it through brick. (and just in case - no i'm no expert - so i could be completely wrong) but it would have to go through brick/SheetRock/insulation/sheetrock?

Angle of entry seem to come from inside the house? or just poking out and you noticed it in the wall?

bah - i'm rambling - later =)

J/Tharg!

heh edit - forgot to ad - my one ND (lots of circumstances) led to a .40 hydra-shok going through a mirror from about 2' away - pierced the SR, through another slab of SR, and impregnated the laundryroom cabniet door behind it w/ bits of left over bullet... so total - about six to eight feet. I don't know muzzle velocities and the bullet was not designed to penetrate... just the only example i have from Real Life...

J/Tharg!

VietVet 67-68
October 7, 2004, 04:54 AM
Newt

Have you been drinking lately!!

Keith http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/g0/beer.gif

Majic
October 7, 2004, 07:21 AM
By the way the bullet is burried up in the wall, I couldn't determine a trajectory.
You could stick a plastic drinking straw in the bullet hole. That would point out the direction the shot came from.

CAS700850
October 7, 2004, 09:25 AM
When I did juvenile prosecution, I prosecuted a group of kids that were "plinking" in the backyard with a Ruger 10/22. Problem was that they were in a subdivision, and the neighbor's house was only 50 yards downrange, with an intervening roadway. To their credit, they started shooting into the hillside. To their detriment, they stopped after a while and started shooting cans from the top of the fence, which put the neighbor's house as the backstop. Officers recovered 18 bullets from her home. Of these, 9 made it inside. Two went through the storm door, five went through the picture window, and two went right through the siding, insulation, drywall, and into the living room. (Aluminum trajectory rods proved the penetration.

Waht amazed me the most is that one of the rounds through the picture window actuall crossed the room, hit and penetrated the oak china cabinet, and broke the lady's wedding china.

The loads, btw, were CCI minimags. None expanded.

S Roper
October 7, 2004, 09:31 AM
"Chain was decent against arrow heads..."

Getting off topic, but its called mail or maille.

Bacchus
October 7, 2004, 09:47 AM
Looking forward to seeing the pictures. It may help with the speculation.

Newt
October 7, 2004, 10:01 AM
OK... I got some pics last night. I can honestly say I've never seen a 22 bullet shaped like this one. It's almost square.

I looked all around the outside of the house and nada. A friend and I both looked and came up empty handed as far as holes go.

Someone said to stick a straw or something straight in the hole... this isn't possible to determine trajectory. You'll see, and as I said before, the bullet seems to be running the same direction as the wall. Strange... very strange... :scrutiny:

1 of 3

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?postid=1280037

Newt
October 7, 2004, 10:04 AM
Please keep in mind... these pics with the bullet in them are of an interior wall. The bullet would've had to pass through an exterior to reach this wall. The groove in the wall is painted paneling, so the groove is vertical.



http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?postid=1280042

Newt
October 7, 2004, 10:09 AM
And the last pic. I'll be looking forward to hearing discussion on this after you see the pics.



http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?postid=1280045

who me
October 7, 2004, 10:10 AM
Are you sure it's a .22. From the pictures it almost looks like a pellet from an air rifle. I don't know. Weird how it got there though.

Newt
October 7, 2004, 10:13 AM
Just to set the record straight, I'm sure it's a 22 bullet. You can even see in the last picture some of the rifling's marks on the bullet. I dunno if pellet guns have riflings in them or not, but this is a 22 bullet and it sure has rifling impressions in the bullet.

middy
October 7, 2004, 10:15 AM
Almost looks like someone pounded it into the wall with a hammer.

The cylindrical shape is rather odd.

Weird.

JamisJockey
October 7, 2004, 11:12 AM
I'd have to guess it went through a window or door. It was probably tumbling and no longer flying straight to impact like that, probably hit something first (tree branch, etc) to start it tumbling.

OtG
October 7, 2004, 11:24 AM
What does the hole look like with the bullet removed?
Can you see daylight?


<speculation>
The way it was stuck in looks like it may have ricocheted off something then hit the wall sideways from the inside. :confused:
</speculation>

Is there a window in the wall opposite the bullet-hole?

-Owen

sturmruger
October 7, 2004, 12:08 PM
Wow that is strange!!

Newt
October 7, 2004, 12:21 PM
Yes, there is are 2 windows in the wall opposite the bullet, but it's under my front porch. My overhang from my roof on my front porch comes down to something like chest level when standing inside the house. I checked the screens on the windows. One window screen has no holes. The other screen had holes in it when I bought the house, so I don't know if there are any new holes in it or not. I've got another pic that I need to put up that may show an impact/trajectory better. :confused:

Newt
October 7, 2004, 12:26 PM
here's the pic I was talking about in the above post...



http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?postid=1280295




You can easily see in this pic which way it pushed the splinters out. If I were to guess, it would've came from the right side of the pic which is where the window with the holes in the screen is. Maybe???

Lonestar.45
October 7, 2004, 12:29 PM
I'd bet just about anything that it's a .22 pellet from a pellet gun. Barrels in them are almost always rifled, and many of them reach .22lr velocity. I'd be on the lookout for neighborhood kids w/ a pellet gun.

jdkelly
October 7, 2004, 01:17 PM
It look like it came from the lower right to the upper left. It also looks like it came in backward, if the base is to the left.

Let us know what you find out.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

one-shot-one
October 7, 2004, 01:45 PM
if it is a pellet it will have a hollow base if the base is solid it is a 22 with the point flattened it looks like it was tumbling before it hit,

Johnny Guest
October 7, 2004, 03:06 PM
Interesting how differently various observers interpret the same image - - -

Lonestar.45, I respectfully differ with your opinion. I believe this is a bullet from a .22 Long Rifle cartridge.

For some reason it appears clear to me that the photo, bullet3.jpg, depicts the bullet pointing to our right. The bullet nose is deformed into almost a wadcutter configuration, and you can see the rifling impression (engraving of the barrel lands) on the left end.

In the image, bullet4.jpg, the bullet nose is pointing to our upper left. Impact with the wall is almost a 90-degree keyhole. The bullet had struck (and almost certainly passed through) something before embedding itself in the wall. I can’t tell if the bullet was a hollow point or not. I’d guess it was. If you weigh the bullet, I’d bet it weighs between 35 and 37 grains. If it was NOT a HP, it would weigh right around 40 grains. I conclude this from the apparent length-to-width of the image. Bullets from the .22 Short and .22 Long cartridges are almost always 29 grains in weight. The .22 rimfire magnum bullets are mostly jacketed, or heavily plated or copper washed.

An image of the base of the bullet (again, the end with the rifling marks on it) will show a concave surface - - Hardly an actual hollow base.

Most airgun pellets have a deep hollow base. It is normally termed a “Skirted” design, and almost all the .22 pellets sold in the USA have a distinctively wasp waisted configuration.

Best,
Johnny

Newt
October 7, 2004, 05:54 PM
All I have to say is... WOW!

Johnny, you nailed it on the head. I got curious as to the weight of the bullet and weighed it here at work on our postal scales, then converted oz. to grains. 36 grains. When you said between 35 & 37 grains you weren't kidding.

:D

Johnny Guest
October 7, 2004, 06:49 PM
Glad to have my deductions confirmed. Sometimes, even the ole blind hawg finds an acorn!

:p
Johnny

Mal H
October 7, 2004, 06:58 PM
That bullet wasn't going very fast when it hit the wall. So it either traveled a good distance or it went through or bounced off something. I'm betting all three things happened in its travel.

It had to have come through the window. Look closely at the screen and see if one of the holes doesn't have shinier wires on the edge of the hole than the others. That one would be the new hole.

dav
October 7, 2004, 08:07 PM
bullet_3 looks dirty. Is that just wood splinters?

Or could a kid have found this in the street old and run over by cars and shot it in a slingshot?

It had to have been barely moving when it hit that wall, paneling like that isn't known for it's ability to withstand being punctured.

Rimmer
October 7, 2004, 09:03 PM
That's an impact. The wall around it is pushed in not out.

It does look more like a pellet than anything in rimfire with one exception.

Ever see an Aguila SSS round. 60 grains at about 550/600 FPS. They are about half the velocity of most pellet guns and are a so-so squirrel round out to 25/30 yards. And they are very quiet. Further they won't penetrate through a 5/8 sheet of plywood.

I'm thinking this round was fired inside the house and possibly bounced off something to flatten the nose before it tumbled into the wall.
In the photo the round on the left is a standard Winschester t-22 round. On the right is the Aguila SSS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/shamus04/WinchesterAguilla.jpg

Majic
October 7, 2004, 10:38 PM
Don't forget the old trick of filing the round nose .22lr bullet flat to make a semi-wadcutter of it for small game hunting. It could be an example of that.

KMD
October 8, 2004, 07:40 AM
Time to call CSI and get the experts in there:D

Newt
October 8, 2004, 11:30 AM
KMD,

What are you talking about?... We are the experts! ;)

bamawrx
October 8, 2004, 12:09 PM
Can you draw a diagram of the room layout with windows etc? Indicate height of impact and location too.

What we know:

.22 projectile not air propelled

Not micro-grooved rifling so offending rifle was not a Marlin

Came to rest while traveling in unstabilized flight

Projectile shows previous damage to front of projectile occurring during stabilized flight.

Projectile contacted wall at VERY near 90 degrees.


The key to finding the origin of the projectile is to map the path at near 90 degrees perpendicular from the resting place and see what you find.

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