Road Rage Confrontation


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skeetlover
October 7, 2004, 01:05 AM
Dear fellow THR’s
Today I came across some serious road rage today and ended up in a dangerous confrontation on the side of the road. On my way home from college I came to a four way stop and there was a car to my left and a car to my right, as soon as I pulled up to the stop sign the cars perpendicular to me proceeded to go through the intersection and once they were through the intersection the car parallel to me started to go so I went with him without coming to a full stop. I admit I did not do a full stop because the car parallel with me was already going so I went. It was nearly a full stop. There was an older blue neon that was to the left of me that also went; he jerked out towards me. The man driving the neon accelerated to get close to me to scare me so I would not have went, as if I went out of turn. (I was already almost through the intersection). I didn’t think I ran it blatantly and the car coming towards me was going so I went with him.

Anyway the blue neon honks and flips me off and yells profanity while nearly missing me. I honk back and continue on my way meanwhile I see the same blue neon flying up on my tail end. He turned around to follow me so I went another block and stopped at the sign to turn, left he pulls up on my right side screaming and cussing and yelling that he’s going to **** me up and that I’m an *********, your dead, you stupid mother ****** what the **** is wrong with you and so on. I cuss back at him because even if I was out of turn which I really didn’t think I was I still didn’t deserve that.

He is on the right hand side of my car about 6 inches away from my passenger door and screaming, yelling and threatens to get out of his car. He tries to open his door to climb out, but he can’t because we are so close to each other. I’m afraid this guy is going way overboard and is really going to try and hurt me, so I pull out my pepper spray and was debating on spraying him and driving away because I didn’t want this guy to get out of his car and drag me out of mine and or beat me. So I pull it out and keep it low while waiting for the cars to pass so I can drive away from him (remember we were at another intersection). He continues to try and get out of his car while screaming obscenities 5 feet away from me. Traffic finally clears so I floor it speeding away from him going left at the intersection. He goes right, I’m shaking and worried about what could have happened and why he flipped out so bad and if he would have really ripped me out of my car and tried to fight me.

I drive down the road several hundred yards and pulled off to the right because I was shaken. I sit there a minute or so and I see and hear him pull up behind me. He screams and yells out the window. I yell back at him and he pulls up next to my car again I said “Sorry maybe I did run the stop sign and that I thought it was my turn and for him to leave me alone, get away and to leave now.” He jumps out of his car screaming at me and telling me he’s going to beat me and were going to fight right now. He’s still standing 15 feet away from my car. I have mace in my hand ready to spray him meanwhile he stays 15 feet away yelling and telling me to get out of my car so we can fight. I’m shaking, nervous, scared, angry and yelling back. I don’t know why I just didn’t drive away. He stands there yelling and telling me to bring it on I have mace in left hand on my side of the drivers door so he cant see it and if he comes close to pull me from car I will spray him and fight for my life.

I yell to him that I am under 18 and if he hurts me he will go to jail and he better think about what he’s doing along with more cuss words because I was extremely mad. I yelled the same thing he said to me right back at him. I couldn’t really control it, it just came out. He wouldn’t come close I think he realized that I was holding something behind the door. He yells for me to get out of the car you ***** every word in the book. I’m shaking badly and can’t think, and even if I could it wasn’t rational. I was wondering what was going on and am I going to make it out of this ordeal okay? I don’t know why he didn’t just charge me and try to drag me from my car and beat me. I think he felt some confidence in my voice even though I was much smaller than him, and he knew I had something on my side of the car door. He continues to say he’s going to beat me and I’m this and that. I say if you come close to me I’m going to beat the living hell out of you along with some very serious cuss words, I once again told him if he comes close I’m going to beat him till he’s bloody.

He starts backing up saying every word in the book once again and gets into his car and speeds off in the opposite direction once again yelling at me while leaving and screaming that he’s going to beat me when he finds me. Now once having been at home for a few hours after this incident I reviewed my reaction as this. I think maybe I should have sprayed him when he pulled up next to me the first time and sped off but there was traffic and he was wearing sun glass’s so I didn’t really want to spray him until it was ultimately necessary because I knew I might just make him mad and then I would of really made him charge me and rip me from my car, the pepper spray was a last resort. I didn’t want to over do the force by spraying him just for yelling at me but I was about to when he tried to get out of his car the first time (Our cars were to close together).

I also think that when I pulled over because I was shaken, that was probably my worse move. I should have drove to a police station or just kept driving and not stopped, not made a confrontation, not let him get close to me. It was a good move to think and tell him I was under 18 even though he said he did not care he was still going to beat me it seemed as though it was a factor in keeping him from coming at me (I look young). I am exactly 18 years old now. I also think I should have not ran that stop sign I don’t think I ran it deliberately, but I should have made a full stop, although he was way out of reason for doing all that because I rolled through a stop sign when he thought it was his turn. I did not cut him off. He was rushing the stop sign and so was I. I was on his right and he had not stopped up at the crosswalk yet. I also don’t think I should have said anything back to him or screamed and cussed at him because that pissed him off even more, although it was hard to control when someone is yelling at you. I really think I should have kept driving and not stopped, that was a bad decision. Overall I survived and I learned a lot of things. I’m glad that I’m okay and I handled it all right, at least I think I handled it okay. I also think I did good by not getting out of my car because when he got out and stood 15 feet away screaming for me to get out I think if I would of got out we would have been in a fight. This man was about 35 or 40 years old about 6’0 and 180 lbs.

I am 5’7 125lbs and 18 years old. It all happened so fast it was so hard to make good choices and decisions with all this stuff going through my head. I also carry a bigger can of pepper spray in my vehicle with easy access but just came back from deer hunting and it was still in my hiking bag until about an hour ago, now its back in my vehicle. Lesson learned to always be prepared. I also had a Kershaw in my pocket, but never resorted to it because his actions weren’t lethal towards me and I am cautious about using it because I don’t want him to take it from me and use it on me (Some knife training class‘s would be nice). I understand the laws about using lethal force and was only planning on using pepper spray and trying to get away unless he presented a threat to my life, It probably could have been justifiable of me using my knife if he had tried to pull me from my vehicle since I am on the smaller side and his fists against me could be viewed as a lethal threat to my life. I am telling you all this because you have to be prepared; there are crazy people out there. Practice and train and hope your training comes into play when the situation happens. It also looked as if this guy was on some kind of drug or coming down from something. It all happened so fast and it was hard to react smart efficient and quick. Things happen and we all need to be prepared and take care of ourselves. Any input is welcome. Thanks, Mark

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4v50 Gary
October 7, 2004, 01:20 AM
Mark.

Try deescalation rather than confrontation.

Unless they're following you, disengage. If they're following you and you can't disenage, go to a public place (like a police station) where there are a lot of witnesses. Apologize whether you're right or wrong. Accompany it with an open palm gesture w/shrug and "sorry." Let him scream and don't cuss back. If anything happens, the witnesses will say that he was the aggressor.

Some things are not worth getting in a fight over.

BTW, that shaking was your adrenalin at work. Fight or flight stuph. It's normal.

Gary

DigMe
October 7, 2004, 01:27 AM
Had you sprayed him and driven off when he pulled up next to you it would have been assault on your part, plain and simple. That would have been bad.

brad cook

SunBear
October 7, 2004, 01:33 AM
You never know what he or a passenger may have in the car. Don't let him control you. He's a stranger. Why do you care what he thinks about you. Disengage. Get on with your life. Someday he will run into someone as moronic as he and you will see it on the 6 o'clock news.

Dbl0Kevin
October 7, 2004, 01:42 AM
Had you sprayed him and driven off when he pulled up next to you it would have been assault on your part, plain and simple. That would have been bad.

Not neccessarily. If this man had indeeded threatened to "rip" him out of his car and beat him up then he would have definate reason to believe his safety was in danger. Many people think that you actually have to wait to be assaulted before you can take any action, but this is not true. Once you have a reasonable and articulable belief that you are in danger of bodily injury you may react accordingly.

he was wearing sun glass’s so I didn’t really want to spray him until it was ultimately necessary because I knew I might just make him mad

I had to get sprayed with OC in the police academy.....lemme tell ya sunglasses ain't helpin ya any. ;) Had he been sprayed he would have to be nuts to try to attack you and even IF he did you would be at a MUCH greater advantage and could easily escape.

4v50 Gary
October 7, 2004, 01:45 AM
BTW, my brother was yelled at in a Supermarket once. "Get out of the way!" He steps aside as he doesn't want trouble. The guy who is shorter than my brother, starts berating him. My brother chews him out and embarasses him in front of his wife. Later that night, my brother sees the wife on the TV news. Short-Shrimp Whimpy struck her and went to jail. He wasn't happy to see that Short-Shrimp Whimpy took it out on her, but he figured that he had bad Kharma and that it caught up to him.

The moral - sooner or later the creep will get his dues and someone meaner and nastier who doesn't give a hoot will pound him into the pavement. You'll hear about it in the news when they talk about an ex-con who's out on probation beats up the guy with a baseball bat.

So, keep your Kharma clean and let his Kharma catch up to him.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
October 7, 2004, 01:56 AM
I'm with Gary and Kevin on this one.

De-escalate, back it down as smoothly as you can, and leave. Mea culpa. Smile, give him your best goofy grin and play like you're stupid. No blood, no foul. Arguing with an irrational person is a losing proposition. Sometimes it's best to swallow your pride. Your Maker gave you a bigger throat than you think.

However, this is the one time I find that pepper products are of use- if the screamer had gotten close enough to strike- or does strike your car (or you through the window) then give him a little seasoning.

Then leave. Safely and quietly. Go somewhere away from him...preferably a nice, well populated public place, like a police station in case he decides he's able or willing to follow you.

Regards,
Rabbit.

JPL
October 7, 2004, 03:19 AM
Try not to trigger your pepper spray in your car.

It's not very pleasant driving it for quite some time afterwards.

My wife's pepper spray leaked in her car.

It was not pleasant.

rayra
October 7, 2004, 05:07 AM
4-way stops do NOT work the way you described. The rotation is clockwise, driver on the right goes first, round and round. When people on opposite sides of the interestion - what you called 'parallel'? - go at the same time, they are breaking the law, and setting up a likely accident.

Once the situation was blown by the two 'perpendicular' drivers going, it was a toss-up whether you or the opposing vehicle went first, to re-establish the proper order. With that driver having already been at rest before you got there, the neon likely (and reasonably) expected it was his turn after THEY went. YOUR failure to stop and yield triggered the altercation.

The guy in the neon was wrong for accelerating AT you, whether it was his right of way or not. He was doubly wrong for persuing and engaging you.

You were wrong for not knowing the rules of the road, for a rolling stop, and for escalating the situation, AND for foolishly stopping after a few hundred yards, thinking you were clear.



PS - people with almost no posts routinely troll firearms boards with stories such as these, hoping to draw a 'shoulda shot him' response. I haven't read your other posts, have no idea who or what you are, and sincerely hope that is not what this was.

Tharg
October 7, 2004, 05:42 AM
I'm no expert - but had a few "instances" of people and "raging" ...

There is one thing you can do to de-escelate it ( i know spelling)

that is the easy way out... keep a wary eye - but say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

be READY - ya never know if THAT is the wackjob that will take it to the next level... but know that most of em are talking smack out thier car window just like people talk smack on the internet.

Keep doin what yer doin - if yer going to the supermarket - go to the supermarket - if yer goin home - go home - if yer going to work - go to work... reacting to the ragers comments makes them madder - since to THEM for whatever the reason they "flipped" they are right - and further comment on the matter just solidifies thier argument.

I'm not saying don't have yer spray/chl/whatever defense ready, as anyone in a situation should be ready... i'm saying its a judgement call - and egging the idiot on rarely helps anyone.

I've found that like most bully's... "seemingly" ignoring them works better than just about any method. Since they have nothing to fuel thier anger... they have nothing to continue with, people move on thier way w/o incident.

Yer right btw... pulling over was prolly the worst thing to do... its much harder for what seemingly was a more determined person to "chase ya down" if ya don't stop - not only that - the more distance - the less likely they will stick w/ it. All that said - good job for keeping your defense at the ready and not pre-maturely using it.

I'll never understand road rage -i get angry - personally consider 80% of drivers to be idiots... <rofl - i'm sure some have included ME in THIER 80%> if not more... but getting mad (especially THAT mad) at someone that they are courting... well court... is beyond me... move on - no one was hurt, nothing was damaged, move on.

bleh

J/Tharg!

esheato
October 7, 2004, 06:19 AM
PS - people with almost no posts routinely troll firearms boards with stories such as these, hoping to draw a 'shoulda shot him' response. I haven't read your other posts, have no idea who or what you are, and sincerely hope that is not what this was.

Rayra,

I understand your hesitation in believing or responding to this post, but I can vouch 110% for this member as he is my younger brother.

Best,

Ed

dinosaur
October 7, 2004, 08:33 AM
Ok, let's just say that I found your post confusing so I'll keep it simple. Short of you running over a bunch of schoolkids getting off the stopped school bus with it's lights flashing, the chances of me chasing you like that and getting postal are nil! Anyone who does that is a dangerous retard and should be avoided at all costs! The best way to avoid people like that is put them under the mental institution and forget about them. Learn from your experience and don't do it (whatever the heck it was:confused: ) again.

Zach S
October 7, 2004, 10:23 AM
Someday he will run into someone as moronic as he and you will see it on the 6 o'clock news. Or even better, COPS!

Keep doin what yer doin - if yer going to the supermarket - go to the supermarket - if yer goin home - go home - if yer going to work - go to work... WRONG! (IMO) Drive aimlessly for a little while. Some people actually get so pissed off they'll fight you in a parking lot. My advice, lose the tail first, then go on about your day.

Tory
October 7, 2004, 10:40 AM
It was declared that:

"If this man had indeeded threatened to "rip" him out of his car and beat him up then he would have definate [sic] reason to believe his safety was in danger."

Wrong. A mere verbal threat is NOT sufficient reason to unleash your OC or whatever. READ the original post - at the time this threat was made, the guy was:

1. Still in his car; and

2. Could not open the door because the two cars were so close.

Hardly a credible threat of assault at that time.

To warrant a defensive act, the threat must meet 3 criteria:

1. ABILITY - does the person making the threat have the ability to carry it out? A paraplegic in a wheelchair threatening to "pull you out of your car" is NOT a threat.

2. OPPORTUNITY - does the person making the threat presently have a chance to carry it out? A phone call from a guy 6 states away threatening to "pull you out of your car" is NOT a threat.

3. JEOPARDY - is the person making the threat taking immediate action to harm you? If not, there is no threat.

ALL THREE CONDITIONS MUST BE MET.

"Many people think that you actually have to wait to be assaulted before you can take any action, but this is not true. Once you have a reasonable and articulable belief that you are in danger of bodily injury you may react accordingly"

THAT is closer to the truth. However, that "reasonable and articulable belief" requires that the above 3 conditions be met.

trapperjohn
October 7, 2004, 11:53 AM
The rotation is clockwise, driver on the right goes first, round and round. When people on opposite sides of the interestion - what you called 'parallel'? - go at the same time, they are breaking the law, and setting up a likely accident.

Please show the law on this. I am sure the law for 4-way stops is "first to stop=first to go"

jefnvk
October 7, 2004, 12:00 PM
4-way stops do NOT work the way you described. The rotation is clockwise, driver on the right goes first, round and round. When people on opposite sides of the interestion - what you called 'parallel'? - go at the same time, they are breaking the law, and setting up a likely accident.

Depends on where you are. In MI, I was taught that that is perfectally legal.

Don't sweat it. A few years back, when I got my permit, we were in Daytona Beach. I pulled out of the Barnes and Nobel there, and a car comes screaming by at about 70 (speed limit was 35 or 45), honking the horn. It seems that she was coming around a curve so fast, I didn;t see her, and cut her right off. She gets out screaming about her baby, and how I tried to kill it :rolleyes: (like I was out to kill her baby). This is while she is standing in a five lane road, blocking off traffic. Anyway, this goes on for a bit, and the whole time I just gave her a stupid look. She eventually leaves, but what I found out that day was that either saying nothing, or apologizing and saying nothing further is the best policy.

OTOH, I have been on the other side, too. There, you'll get honked at, and maybe the finger, but other than that, I don't see any further action as helping the situtation.

johnnymenudo
October 7, 2004, 12:48 PM
I would have called the police. The way the person was acting was very irrational - especially the fact that he was a male threatening to beat up a woman (actually a girl). I don't think you were right to yell back or swear back - you should have just gone on your way and if you got into trouble call 911 or go to the nearest police station.

If a man is willing to threaten to beat up a young woman for a minor mistake in traffic, he has got to be considered capable of anything. That's just crazy.

JM

oops - just realized the poster is a guy. Sorry Mark. I saw the 5'7" and 125 lbs and just assumed. My bad. Ok my advice still holds true since you are a young guy and not exactly a threatening figure. The guy was nuts.

sturmruger
October 7, 2004, 12:58 PM
Your best bet is to drive to a police station or somewhere there are lot of cameras. Then just sit in your car with the windows up and the radio on and totally ignore him.

gripper
October 7, 2004, 01:15 PM
its been my experience that people who feel "annonymous"in situations,wheter in a car ,or other settings involvingreal or imagined "wrongs" CAN and WILL have abn attack of the stupids.
I've had strangers pull in behind me at the gas pump with a head of steam,while being egged on by their girlfriend.And the funny thing was they were cut off by the car in FRONT of me.Awful funny how they suddenly don't want to continue when the one they menace gives them their FULL attention.
Honest to God, the best general attitude is to scrupulously avoid what can be avoided. don't fight over anything but physical threats and aggression. But when you can't avoid it,do your level, best to keep safe....and that means making it costly for heim(or her) to continue the assault.

1)Eyes and ears-know where you are& what/who's around you.

2) Escape& evasion,get clear where you can

3)Use your unarmed combatives (where necessary) only to either esacpe,or make it to an equalized( if not actually carrying something.

4)Do what's necessary to brek it off and or end the attack....sometimes this means escape,sometimes it means put him down and DON'T stop halfway. More people gethurt or killed in confrontations because they stopped too early.....and took their eyes off of the threat.

5)NEVER get creative with the scene,evidence or events...not all cops are brilliant, but most of the good ones can smell a lie,even one you cooked up to sound "better",or tpo remove any doubt of your "good citizenship"status......that only bites you on th @ss when you get in front of a judge.

Pilgrim
October 7, 2004, 01:29 PM
4-way stops do NOT work the way you described. The rotation is clockwise, driver on the right goes first, round and round. When people on opposite sides of the interestion - what you called 'parallel'? - go at the same time, they are breaking the law, and setting up a likely accident.

Speaking as a one time traffic safety instructor in California, Skeetlover's state; at an intersection controlled by four-way stop signs, the first driver to stop at the intersection has the right of way. When two or more drivers arrive and stop at the same time, the driver to the right has the right of way.

When all four drivers arrive at the intersection and stop at the same time, some headwork and courtesy has to prevail.

There is nothing wrong when head to head drivers go at the same time, as long as one doesn't turn in front of the other. It this situation, it is probably best that someone take the initiative and yield the right of way to the other driver.

Pilgrim

Carlos Cabeza
October 7, 2004, 02:00 PM
ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation. You have nothing to prove to anyone. Apologize and drive away, even if you KNOW you are right. Just let it go. That guy will eventually get what he's got coming, hopefully from an off duty LEO. There was an incident here last summer where a young, strong buck and an older gentleman got into the same situation as you described. The young and dumb guy got shot in the head right in the intersection. Old guys do not like to fist fight. Yes he is in prison, but he's alive. Nothing good ever comes from anger and hostility.

cracked butt
October 7, 2004, 02:17 PM
Anyway the blue neon honks and flips me off and yells profanity while nearly missing me. I honk back

Don't do that.
If someone yells profanity, honks, or gives you the bird, you are in not required to reciprocate. Some people are just looking for an excuse to hurt someone, so don't engage them, and don't stand out in the crowd.

CannibalCrowley
October 7, 2004, 02:25 PM
Of course the discussion over the legality of crossing out of turn with a "parallel car" is moot since he never bothered to stop in the first place.

Tharg
October 7, 2004, 02:27 PM
When i said go on about your day - i guess i was refering as to my situation - my drive to work is usually long and i can't say anyone ever getting wierd on me for whatever amount of time did it before i had 30+ more minutes to drive. =) hehehe

SO i guess yer right - lose the tail first. Altho i'd think that a nice crowded parking lot would be helpful - a lot more helpful than wherever it sounded like Mark pulled off.

The only time i really recall someone getting funky - i was doing the speed limit in the fast lane. (for whatever reason the middle and slow lanes were not going even that fast.) I got tired of tickets long ago - so thats what i do. The guy behind me didn't appreciate the fact that i wasn't moving cause he was behind me. He didn't flash lights or anything - just tailgating like a witch.

I pulled over into the middle lane when i had a chance, he passed me and flipped me the bird etc etc. got back into the fast lane.

I SWEAR less than a mile later - he was flying across 2 lanes of traffic to get to an exit... not only that he had been watching where i was (i guess like i had been him) and flipped me off again as he was exiting the highway...

ROFL - I just can't imagine... <shrug>

J/Tharg!

thatguy
October 7, 2004, 02:58 PM
I am always amazed at how some people will get violent over such trivial things like who went first at stop sign. But it happens. In 1975 I was driving on a lonely highway late at night when a driver went nuts at me because I was driving the speed limit and he wanted to go faster. I don't know why he didn't simply pass me. I guess he was looking for trouble. He almost found it.

He tailgated me and flashed his lights for several miles. I kept waving for him to pass but he didn't. I finally pulled over on the shoulder and stopped to let him by. But he stopped ahead of me and jumped out with a long lug wrench in his hand, screaming obscenities and insults. I stepped out of my car and stood behind the open door. He couldn't see the 6.5 inch S&W Model 29 .44 magnum I held in my hand behind the door. He was 10 steps away and advancing. I decided that when he took step number 6 I would put a 240 grain JHP in his chest. I never said a word. He took 5 steps and stopped. He ranted and raved for about 30 seconds not knowing he was one step from eternity. He then turned and left.

I will tell you this. If an agitated man approaches me, yelling and threatening me, I take that as a clear and present danger. Assuming that a man isn't serious when he tells you to your face that he intends to hurt you is a good way to get hurt or killed. In my state if you tell someone you intend to attack them that is grounds for self-defense.

I would have waved and said "sorry." If he persisted I would have said "sorry" again and then ask him to leave as he is now causing me to fear for my safety. If he keeps coming at me after I have warned him, well... I have to see him as a serious threat.

In this case, a minor impoliteness at a stop sign led to an outrageous overreaction. The irate driver's actions would be considered assualt in many states. I would certainly have feared for my safety had I been subjected to such abuse. If it had been me, that man screaming and cursing may very have have gotten shot when he approached my car.

OF
October 7, 2004, 03:08 PM
The world is full of morons. Some percentage of them dangerous. When he honked and flipped you off, you should have ignored him and moved on. That's de-escalation.

A tough bit to swallow, I know. But that's life.

Your pepper spray force option obligates you to avoid altercations. Those of us who carry guns regularly know all to well the sting of having to walk away from your average insulting moron who needs to get his teeth knocked out. But the fact is, by participating in the altercation you are partly responsible for the outcome. If that outcome involves shooting someone (or to a lesser degree, macing them) you had best be sure that you did everything by the numbers up to that point.

If you want to have the option to duke it out with some retard over insults (and by reciprocating the insults you are accepting that possibility), leave the pepper spray/pistols at home. When you carry a force option, you are obligated to avoid using it. This is the trade-off. To be ready to survive when it's really on the line, you give up your ability to 'defend your honor' from common knuckle-draggers.

The way I've had it explained, is that if you have a concealed weapon and an altercation commences and you did not take 'outs' that were available to you, you will be partly responsible for the outcome due to the fact that your opponent was unaware that the possible outcome of his actions included not just a fight, but death. You are the only one in the altercation who knows that death is a real possibility, so you are obligated to avoid it moreso than your opponent.

Your mistake was to participate in the altercation. The guy was looking for someone to screw with, your move at the intersection put you on the radar screen. He threw the line out and you bit it, giving him the altercation he was fishing for.

Good lessons in all this. Thanks for bringing it up.

- Gabe

PS: I'm not a lawyer, this is basically just my opinion on the subject...

Pebcac
October 7, 2004, 06:31 PM
Having had my rear window blown out by some psychopath because I wasn't polite when he tailgated me, I can tell you this: keep your eyes to the front (as much as is reasonable while driving), don't make eye contact, keep your mouth shut, and drive away. Period.

If you get followed, call the police if you have a cell phone and follow instructions; if you don't have a cell phone, head for the nearest police station. Anything else, and you risk a violent confrontation. People who wig out to that extreme over a traffic incident are not stable and may very well kill you.

Good post, and some very good responses.

Zundfolge
October 7, 2004, 07:41 PM
Those of us who carry guns regularly know all to well the sting of having to walk away from your average insulting moron who needs to get his teeth knocked out.

True ... but you'll be surprised how much easier it is to back down when you're carrying.

Back before I carried if I would de-escalate such a situation afterward I would feel like a wimp ... but now when I go out of my way to de-escalate these types of situations I feel more like I'm being a responsible member of the human race (because frankly if I don't de-escalate then the chances of the other guy dying increases exponentially...not an outcome I want and definitely not one he wants...I don't care if I'm 110% in the right I certainly don't want to kill someone and I don't want to push some idiot into a position where I have to kill him).

igor
October 7, 2004, 07:57 PM
If you're being pulled in an argument with an idiot, see to that the same isn't happening to the idiot in question.

Even better, just avoid, deflect and defuse. Don't participate, it'll be a lonely fight for the jerk screaming. Who was it that said "they can't wage a war if nobody shows" ?

ClonaKilty
October 7, 2004, 08:32 PM
An excellent video on de-escalation is Bill Kipp's The Missing Link (http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1078). I bought it and highly recommend it to anyone, expecially those who carry or are learning martial arts.

Gunpacker
October 7, 2004, 08:43 PM
Almost seemed to me that you were looking for a chance to use your mace. Cussing back at him. Weren't really trying to de-escalate. Word of warning, and it comes as a surprise to many. Mace may take a minute or more to really become effective. Someone high on drugs or rage, can fail to feel the pain for a time, and never become incapacitated in some cases. You would be a world of hurt if confronting someone, spraying them, only to find yourself being harmed in the ineffective minute, or by someone enraged enough to ignore it. It happens.

Ky Larry
October 7, 2004, 10:46 PM
You can't fight every Bozo you run into. They've got you outnumbered. If you are in a confrontational situation in public, your best course of action is usually to quickly leave the area.

Bubbles
October 7, 2004, 11:20 PM
The way I've had it explained, is that if you have a concealed weapon and an altercation commences and you did not take 'outs' that were available to you, you will be partly responsible for the outcome due to the fact that your opponent was unaware that the possible outcome of his actions included not just a fight, but death. You are the only one in the altercation who knows that death is a real possibility, so you are obligated to avoid it moreso than your opponent.

GRD - that's more than your opinion. That is in fact the law (in Virginia) as it was explained when I took the course for my CHL. In fact, we were told that if we did anything to escalate the situation we were wholly responsible for whatever happened as a result.

It's amazing how much stupidity by other drivers I simply blow off when I'm carrying. Getting flipped off and cussed at isn't even an issue.

alcmaeon
October 8, 2004, 01:07 AM
I'd lay ya' a nickle that the guy kept going after you because you are a smaller guy. That putz would have cussed at you and driven away had you been 6'4 and 220lbs.

My advice, keep that cell phone on you at all times. Its as effective a weapon as a .45 if you use it fast and furious.

Tharg
October 8, 2004, 03:16 AM
Its funny -

Women aren't nearly as often cited in road rage incidents....

but i can bet cha huge amounts of cash they are every bit as mad!!!!

Heck - just being privy to my mom and step-mom's outbursts - from women you'd never think of saying those things... (ok... maybe my mom - but still) say the DANGDEST things and react in the darndest ways when they forget yer there. (cause i'm son - i'm not "guest" in the strictist sense....)

Like i said - i know there are women "road ragers" but its not just a manly thing - more in the way its handled w/o thinking about it.... just interesting to think about in the few times i've witnessed it. I've had to laugh at my mom several times and saying "whats it accomplish?" Her heart rate was raging and she was MAD... would she have followed... ya know - sometimes i think if she was a guy - ya... heheh

J/Tharg!

Wildalaska
October 8, 2004, 03:47 AM
PS - people with almost no posts routinely troll firearms boards with stories such as these, hoping to draw a 'shoulda shot him' response. I haven't read your other posts, have no idea who or what you are, and sincerely hope that is not what this was.

I understand your hesitation in believing or responding to this post, but I can vouch 110% for this member as he is my younger brother.

Glad we got that settled...

Now as to the ncident.....

Shoulda shot him:neener:

WildmymottoabeltfedineveryblazeranfncineveryfordAlaska

Tharg
October 8, 2004, 04:18 AM
i'll only post w/ a sig

thereisareasonimakeitapointtoreadwildalaskaposts

<ROFLMAO>

skeetlover
October 8, 2004, 04:32 AM
Wow, thanks for all the input. A lot to go over and review. I like the idea of disengaging/deescalation and not talking, I will make sure I keep my mouth shut should something in the future occur. Just drive away and ignore the perp is also a good thing I need to practice. I really should have proceeded to the police station after the first stop.

Rayra- I understand your post and even though I do not post often, I read threads almost every other day during free time. I'm on here, sigforum and 1911forum quite a bit. Also the way I was taught during my drivers education courses and by the DMV here in Ca was the way Pilgrim described the laws. I was in the wrong for rolling through it but had he not been there my order was not incorrect.

johnnymenudo- You should see the look on my face after I read your post. Lol very amusing and thanks for the input it was quite the read.

GRD- I understand the idea of doing everything possible to avoid the altercations because I am carrying mace. I may have not done it in the situation and it just tells me I need to make sure I avoid confrontation at all costs in the future if something occurs. Thanks for reminding me. I should have not participated in the confrontation yet I did. Lesson learned to keep driving and avoid all confrontation if possible.

Gunpacker- It may have seemed that I was looking for a person to use it on but from my point of view during the scenario I did not. I did not want to have the confrontation no one does, but I may have not done the best things to avoid it. I'm learning. I also understand that mace may not take affect on some people and on others it may have a delayed effect. I happen to have "accidently" sprayed myself while deer hunting and it took a serious immediate effect on me(thats just me). I also did do a lot of research on pepper spray including how it works, what its effects are and the different kind of sprays when I decided to carry it. Thanks for reminding me that even though I do carry it, it is not a 100% safeguard just like anything else.

alcmaeon-I almost guarentee that you are right too. I know he took it farther than he would have because he saw I am smaller. I learned about how this takes place during my highschool years.

Wildalaska-Can't resist a good laugh..lol nice post

No harsh feelings just my opinion. Thanks for all the responses.

Masione
October 8, 2004, 06:21 AM
"Your mistake was to participate in the altercation. The guy was looking for someone to screw with, your move at the intersection put you on the radar screen. He threw the line out and you bit it, giving him the altercation he was fishing for."

Yep, can't agree more, and as someone already stated, if you are carrying a weapon for self defense, whether it be mace, gun, knife, egging him on when you have a weapon is a good way to get in trouble. More lethal the wepaon, more trouble you will be in if/when you use it.

"I understand the idea of doing everything possible to avoid the altercations because I am carrying mace. I may have not done it in the situation and it just tells me I need to make sure I avoid confrontation at all costs in the future if something occurs. Thanks for reminding me. I should have not participated in the confrontation yet I did. Lesson learned to keep driving and avoid all confrontation if possible."

Just remember, walking away from a confrontation isn't being a wuss, it's being smart. You are potentially saving the other person's life, even if said person may be a waste of space. Glad you posted though, takes a man to fess up and admit he did something wrong. Glad everything worked out okay for you though, and be careful.

:)

OF
October 8, 2004, 09:43 AM
Thanks for reminding me.And thank you for posting your story, it made for a good thread and I'm sure it helped plenty more people than just you. Lots of people read these boards, so one mans experience becomes a lesson not only for him but for many.

- Gabe

PS: Good point Zundfolge. You're absolutely right.

PPS: You can't fight every Bozo you run into. They've got you outnumbered.Quote of the day :)

El Rojo
October 8, 2004, 12:14 PM
This is just adding more to the pile. I carry a concealed weapon and I am very relaxed in the car when I am. The thing I am always thinking is, "It isn't worth his/her life." If I get in a physical altercation, I am not a fighter. I am not going to take my licks and move on. I have a pistol and I will defend myself if I have no other options. The nice thing is I will usually probably have many other easier options that shooting someone. The first is a simple wave and mouth lipping of "sorry". I do like someone else said, I try to avoid eye contact.

You are young, what doesn't kill you will only make you smarter. Next time don't say anything back and most certainly, don't pull over on the side of the road and relax. Go somewhere else. Life is too short to get fired up about these things. As I said before, "It isn't worth their life." Right now since you are not armed, you are the person who is going to get shot if you are mouthing off at someone and you escalate a situation. Someday you might be the one carrying and that is exactly what you need to tell yourself, "it isn't worth their life".

And for some reason people are worried about people who carry guns. I think we are the most relaxed people around.

FNFiveSeven
October 8, 2004, 01:24 PM
I've lived in the city long enough to realize that most people's lives around here aren't worth very much. Between the gang members, insurance fraud, rapists, dishonest cops, drug dealers... I'd say what I have for breakfast is worth more than many people's lives. Don't worry about their life, worry about your own. And don't worry about the guy on the road, he's got it coming... maybe not today, and not from you... but it will happen. All you can do is hope you witness it and get to testify against him (or what's left of him) in court.

mokster
October 8, 2004, 08:37 PM
something simalar happened to me a while back. thing is this guy had his wife and kid in the car. He told me as soon as I stop Im dead. It took a while to lose him ,he was very actively pursuing me. I just couldnt believe this low life was doing this with his wife and kid .His wife was even participating by screaming obsceities and throwing her drink at me. It made me wonder how that kid will grow up too.With two raving lunatic parents.

Horsesense
October 9, 2004, 02:45 AM
Do an Internet search for a report by Human Rights Watch on what happens to young white boys when they go to jail. Keep it filed in the back of your mind at all times. One of the toughest men I have ever known, and the last man in the world you would want to get into a fight with, was a very meek man.

JohnKSa
October 10, 2004, 05:19 PM
Horns are to warn someone an accident is imminent--that's IT! (Unless you're trying to make someone mad enough to confront you.) Your "buddy" used his that way and when you honked back he figured he had a taker.

Cussing at someone is never a good idea and is often against the law if it is done properly in public. Obscene or threatening hand gestures likewise.

Stopping a car when in the middle of a confrontation is generally a bad idea if it is possible to avoid doing so.

Your pride isn't worth killing someone over--backing down is always a good option if it's open to you.

You did pretty well. Think about what happened and try to figure ways you could have avoided the situation entirely or how you could have ended it more quickly.

Don't know about your area, but in my state you can get an address from a license tag number for about $10 and the time it takes to fill out a form at the Department of Public Safety. Keep an eye out--it's never smart to underestimate the extent of someone's craziness.

grislyatoms
October 10, 2004, 06:08 PM
Bad deal. High energy, high emotion situation.

The only accident I have ever been in where I was at fault was in a similar situation, and I was 17 at the time.

Jerk got behind me, flashing his lights, honking his horn; I could see him yelling and giving me the finger in the rear view mirror. I was getting more and more upset as he had definitely started following me; he matched me turn for turn.

The rear view mirror is NOT where I should have been looking. I missed the stoplight ahead of me and broadsided a Toyota pickup. I plead guilty in court with my explanation. Luckily, the Judge dismissed the case and commended me for honesty.

Others have given you good, solid advice.

Try to stay calm and disengage. Cell phone call to the police is a good idea, as long as you can pay attention to the road. No rude gestures, no yelling.
Try not to make eye contact, and try not to stop.

To this day I still do not know what was wrong with Mr. Jerk.

Daemon688
October 10, 2004, 06:11 PM
You should have ignored him and kept on driving.

I've had this happen to me before, if you ignore them and refuse to acknowledge their existance they'll feel like idiots and give up. Drive off to a very public place if you can't get away, the more witnesses the better.

Now I keep one of those folding shovels in my passenger seat for a reason.

1. To dig myself out of any ditches in the winter.
2. To smack a guy in the head with if I need to.

If you can't get away and that guy moves to assault you then I would rather have a weapon to fight back.

Also you need to start working out and eating more. :D

CannibalCrowley
October 10, 2004, 06:40 PM
JohnKSa Horns are to warn someone an accident is imminent--that's IT! It's also for waking up someone (or interrupting his current nondriving activity) when he fails to drive after the light turns green.

4MUL8R
October 10, 2004, 07:14 PM
Seems like I read a story like this before. The details are slightly different, but the idea was the same. Wonder where I read it?

SUE ROVR
October 10, 2004, 08:03 PM
There is no car I cannot outrun. (ok maybe a 911 turbo or ferrari)

First I slow and let them pass, if they persist, it is hammer down, 2 minutes at 130+ and they are out of sight and I find someplace safe to go.

I would not recommend the tactic unless:
1. You have the right vehicle
2. you know how to drive that fast
3. you are ok with the potential ticket

This is what I would have done. If you get pulled look relieved and say the guy behind you tried to ram you.

JohnKSa
October 10, 2004, 09:51 PM
It's also for waking up someone (or interrupting his current nondriving activity) when he fails to drive after the light turns green.Unfortunately, this (and any other use of the horn besides warning of an impending accident) CAN fall under the other use for horn I mentioned (trying to make someone mad enough to confront you).

Don't believe it?

Here are a couple of bumper stickers that make the point in a humorous fashion.

"Keep honking, I'm reloading."
"Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired out of a car window."

Seriously, I have sometimes used the horn for the purpose you describe, but it's always with the understanding that I may be stirring up a hornet's nest. So far I've been lucky, but I've heard of serious incidents resulting from far less. You just never know what's going to push a person over the edge...

I actually had a person follow me for several miles after I pulled to the side of the road at night and flashed my high-beams at a piece of debris on the shoulder in an effort to determine what it was (a detached bumper). Evidently they were waiting to pull out onto the highway some distance ahead of me and interpreted my stop and the light flash as some sort of insult or affront. I didn't even notice them at the time--later after they followed me for some distance, I thought back over the incident and remembered that there had been a car waiting to turn onto the highway. The person followed me until I made my stop. He (with his family in the car) waited until I stopped the car and then pointed his car at mine and flashed his high-beams. Tit-for-tat, I suppose. I guess it just took him wrong...

Tinker
October 11, 2004, 11:20 AM
Tharg said:

"Women aren't nearly as often cited in road rage incidents....

but i can bet cha huge amounts of cash they are every bit as mad!!!!"

Going home last Fri, as I was coming on to a yellow light, this Caddy (piloted by a 50 year old, big haired Blonde) comes riding in on my bumper. She was so pissed that I had actually obeyed the law and stopped at the (now red) light that she sat there screaming and pointing fingers. Hands and mouth doing 100mph. I couldn't hear, but if my lip reading is up to snuff, I was getting the whole guantlet of 4 letter words. It is a long light, so I got a good 4 minutes of rear-view mirror entertainment. Of course I was cautious that psycho lady might be packing heat, so I watched carefully as I grinned. Greenn light. Well, just so happens that she , like me, was going on the interstate. When she saw my blinker, and the prospect of having to follow me up the long ramp, she went Ape---t again all the way, tailgaining, up the ramp. She gunned it at the first chance, passed flipping me the bird and cussing as she blew by. She still had that hand flopping around till she got out of sight.

God, I hope nobody has to live with that thing.

Don Gwinn
October 11, 2004, 12:09 PM
It all happened so fast it was so hard to make good choices and decisions with all this stuff going through my head.
People never want to believe that really happens. . . . you know better. Use that knowledge.



The only thing that makes yuppies more angry than stopping while the light is still yellow (I do that a lot simply because I'm very bad at estimating distances and speeds--probably the same reason I'm a lousy shot) is when you stop in the right turn lane at a red light and don't IMMEDIATELY turn right.

A couple of years ago, I stopped at a red light in Springfield, IL and didn't take off right away. I forget why, but there was a reason--somebody had gone out of turn and was in the intersection or something. The guy in the Cadillac behind me honked once, then started screaming. I stopped what I was doing and turned to watch what he was doing. He got so mad he actually pulled himself out his window and sat on the window sill with his legs inside the car, screaming and waving his arms. I'd never seen that before. I watched for a few moments, then looked forward just as the light turned green. I made my turn and took off. I didn't check, but I suspect it took him a few seconds to get back into his car and ready to go. In fact, he may have missed the green light. In any case, I never saw him again, and I was paying attention for the next few miles. I was headed out of Springfield for my 30-mile drive home into the hick sticks, so maybe he was back there and just decided it wasn't worth the boredom of following this kid. Or maybe he got a glimpse and realized that I was a LOT bigger than him.

I didn't honk at him, I didn't yell at him, and I didn't make any gestures. Looking back now, it would have probably been even better to hold out the palms and apologize, but I think not responding made a difference.

SteveS
October 11, 2004, 01:27 PM
The only thing that makes yuppies more angry than stopping while the light is still yellow (I do that a lot simply because I'm very bad at estimating distances and speeds--probably the same reason I'm a lousy shot) is when you stop in the right turn lane at a red light and don't IMMEDIATELY turn right.

The same thing happened to me last week. Some jerk-off in a POS rusty truck started laying on the horn when I didn't turn. He was probably a surgeon, on the way to the hostpital to save someone's life. I didn't want to pull out in front of someone and, besides, you don't have to turn until the light turns green. It irritated me enough that I waited until the light was green, even though I had several opportunities to go. I agree that this was very passive/aggressive and I shouldn't have done it, but I am working on it.

R.H. Lee
October 11, 2004, 01:48 PM
There are always more than ample opportunities to play road rage with a psychopath. Just this morning on the way to work some dilhop in front of me in the #1 lane did the windshield spray/wiper routine several times in a row throwing crap back at me all over the hood and windshield of my truck forcing me to use the wipers. (Why not get off the freeway and clean your windshield, doofus?). After several miles, they got off the freeway, but flipped me off and screamed as I passed) ***? If you can't see, get off the freaking road, please. Or at least move over and let traffic pass.

My SOP is not to engage road ragers at all. If they tailgate, honk, flashlights, etc., I'll pull over and let them pass. If they should stop behind me on any road, I'll continue on at a safe speed to a police station. I won't get out of the car. If they approach my vehicle, I'll drive away. If they manage to corner me and/or break a window and I can't escape, too bad for them.

Zackmeister
October 11, 2004, 04:03 PM
I feel for you. About a month ago, some nut decided I was going too slow(I was 5mph over the limit) and zoomed in front of me. He then proceeded to brake repeatedly in front of me while pointing to get over. My pop thinks he was trying to get me to hit him so he could get insurance. I came up on him a few miles later and he had run over somebody's dog. What a jerk.


I don't understand the whole "road rage" phenomenon. I guess some people are borderline psycho and it manifests itself on the road.

PATH
October 11, 2004, 05:07 PM
Road Rage is a rather ineresting phenomena. Readers Digest has a story on it a couple of years ago. People who are very decent can become raving loons behind the wheel. Some have ended up in jail after their behavior resulted in the death of others. In my state, deadly physical force may only be used when deadly physical force is being used, or is imminently about to be used against you and there is no means of retreat.

The anonymous nature of driving coupled with a feeling of power behind the wheel can precipitate horrendous incidents.

Never engage such people as they are not thinking rationally. Use your cell phone to report an incident you are in or one that you have observed. Drive to a police station or flash or honk at a passing police car. Toll takers can also be informed.

I repeat the phrase "isn't that interesting", when someone does something incredibly stupid on the road. Losing ones temper will not make the situation better. Maybe the person screaming at you just lost a loved one, a job, or something else which he held dear.

I drive as if I am on a bumper car ride and everyone is trying to hit me. I drive the limit and I get the hell out of peoples way. I leave early for events and never rush. If you carry a gun take even greater pains to avoid problems. Retreat is the best option. Words can truly never harm you!

To all my fellow THR members, happy motoring and be safe out there!;)

jnojr
October 11, 2004, 09:45 PM
A few weeks ago, I had an incident when I was on my way to my firearms class. When I turned left to go into the range, this guy in a big BMW driving waaay too fast nearly creamed me. From where I was turning, it wasn't a blind turn, but he popped up out of nowhere. Anyway, I drive in and park, and this yo-yo does a 180 and comes in to scream at me. I was [i]soooo[i/] tempted to say "Uhhh... why don't you take a look at where you are, my friend?" :) At the pickup right next to me were two people unloading and putting away their guns, and they're giving homeboy some hard looks. And there were a few police cars in the lot... this class is at the San Diego PD range! Anyway, I just said "Sorry", and turned away from him. My .45 was locked in the trunk, but my trusty Maglite is within reach. He groused some more and took off, and I doubt he ever realized where he was and what he was doing. Talk about your morons... :D

one45auto
October 12, 2004, 12:54 AM
I know how you feel, my friend. I was involved in a similar confrontation when I was nineteen. A man intent on merging onto an exit ramp cut me off (narrowly missing my car, I might add) and so I followed the usual custom and flipped him the bird. The result was a four mile chase the likes of which you only see in movies. Unfortunately my four cylinder Honda wasn't built for speed and I was running low on gas, so I decided my best course of action was to make a stand and I screeched to a halt on a quiet side street. He pulled up a few yards behind me and as he climbed out of his car I retrieved my aluminum bat from the back seat and stood my ground - silently praying that he wouldn't press the confrontation any further. He was nearly twice my size and still angry, but thankfully not in the mood to wager his continued well-being on the odds that I could get in a few solid body blows before he beat the crap out of me. Just the same he had a few words to say and I let him say them. When he finished, he got back into his car and took off, giving me the finger as he did so. I was so pumped full of adrenaline and shaking that I couldn't drive, so my sister (who had gone to the store with me) had to take us home.

OF
October 12, 2004, 10:56 AM
The anonymous nature of driving coupled with a feeling of power behind the wheel can precipitate horrendous incidents.Bingo. People who frequent internet newsgroups should be well acquainted with the mindset that precipitates road rage. The a-holes get muscles. It's their big chance to get even for all the cowering they have to do in real life.

- Gabe

KaceCoyote
October 12, 2004, 10:17 PM
Because I'm a car guy first, and a gun guy second I've studied the road range thing as much as most CCW folks practice with their weapon. Here are the 4 steps I've found to fixing the problem.

1.Drive to an area your familar with if at all possible. You'll know where the police stations, fire stations ect ect ect are.

2.Proceed to the nearest police station, if your in an unfamilar area and all you see is a fire station stop there.

3.Do not exit your vehicle, for any reason. Dont talk to them, dont roll down the windows. Your vehicle is your shield, your weapon, your escape pod and your emergency siren.

4. You have a horn, use it to get the attention of authorities. If you can find a police station or whatever, stop the vehicle in a position that allows you to keep driving. IE pull along side a parking spot, dont pull into it. You may need to move your vehicle to protect yourself. Dont put the car in park, ever. Use the phone only once you've come to a stop.


Think your up for outrunning the situation? Heres the breakdown from a LEO friend of mine, 4 reasons NOT to run.

1. You may be cited for participating in a contest of speed unless the guy appears irate. My friend tells me alot've street racers use this story.

2.Would you rather have somone bump you at 30mph, or 75mph?

3. Less likelyhood of hitting somone completely innocent.

4.Sorry guys but driving normally for 35 years doesnt count here. Unless you have actual, real deal competition experience your just gonna get yourself into more trouble. IF you have competition experience, you still got 3 other reasons not too.

I've been thinking about writing a basic primer for high performance driving in practical situations. How to avoid a road rager without breaking the speed limit and such.

NHBB
October 12, 2004, 11:32 PM
can never know what to expect in those sorts situations...

I remember being like 16, with stats close to yours.... I had some prick in the road in front of me start flicking me off and ushering me over to settle it outside the car. being a scared little teenage bastard I bolted as soon as I got the chance. not something I would do today, but everyone has been put in that kind of awkward situation at one time or another.

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