SHTF - 2 Long Guns and an Alice Pack on foot???


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Blain
February 24, 2003, 01:36 AM
I have been planning for a possible SHTF scenario for quite a while now. With everything going on in the world now, it seems a lot more likely to happen now than it ever did before. I believe that the time will come, when I am not entirely sure, but I know it is coming. Maybe it will come this year, maybe this month, maybe this week! What I do know is that I am prepared for any such event.....or so I think!

Like many of you I have my own bug out bag, a Large Alice Pack, (previously upgraded from a medium) with certain supplies that would help me survive in the wild if I ever had to bug out.

Of course, I would take a firearm with me when bugging out, for protection and survival. However, I have a bit of a question; something that has been plaguing me for quite sometime now. That question is, is it possible or is it feasible that I could take two long guns with me on a SHTF bug out along with my large alice pack?

I have two very effective firearms that I am quite fond of. Two that I put a lot of time and money into, that I would very much like to take with me if I am able.

One is a custom Vang Comped 870 Super Magnum with lots of trimmings. This really is the ultimate close quarters battle weapon, I am very deadly and effective with it.

The second is a custom M14 Armscorp NM Rifle. The ultimate long range battle rifle (IMHO).

I am quite fond of both weapons and see the need for both as there are situations where I could see both being useful, and where I would want one over the other.

Weight is not really an issue. (so I think now)

The Shotgun has a 3 point tac sling on it, and the M14 has the regular rifle sling on it.

I guess what I was thinking of doing was wearing the tac sling shotgun so it would hang down in front of me while slinging the rifle over my shoulder. The pack would be on my back.

Is this feasible, or do I really have to choose between one or the other if I expect a successful bugout/survival trip?

Let's hear it.

What are you planning to do and why?

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Skunkabilly
February 24, 2003, 02:01 AM
Not sure about your environment but in mine (LA suburbs) an ALICE pack, one long gun will make you stick out too much if you're on foot.

If I had to go on foot I'd CCW my pistol and leave the long guns behind. My Camelbak Motherlode looks like an 'aggressive' school backpack but doesn't stand out the way an ALICE does.

Bugging in (bunking in at home which is my current plan), or in the car, long guns are nice but on foot...heck that's 25 pounds of long guns.

Kahr carrier
February 24, 2003, 02:49 AM
I dont think I would bug out in a SHTF scenario unless something Nuclear happen or was going to happen .I would try to be home if SHTF and if the house is still standing It becomes a bunker. and you have your Arms,Food ,Ammo,Generator and in my case Ham Radio.:)

Blain
February 24, 2003, 08:16 AM
In a true SHTF sticking out ain't gona matter much I don't think, or it will be the last thing on everyones minds as the hordes and armies swarm upon all!

COHIBA
February 24, 2003, 08:22 AM
a few points...
you are never fully prepared.
lose the shotgun, ammo is way to heavy to carry a decent ammount on foot.
plan to have a few spare parts and ammo wherever you bugging to.
topo maps, nuf said.
move at night.

Marko Kloos
February 24, 2003, 08:39 AM
You haven't been in the Infantry, have you? :)

A rifle gets mighty heavy on foot marches. Most infantry grunts leave everything behind that isn't 100% necessary, and they take low-weight versions of everything that is. I wouldn't want to hump two rifles in addition to an ALICE with the bare essentials. You'd discard one after 20 miles, guaranteed.

Why be on foot anyway? A vehicle gives you much more hauling capacity for supplies, and it lets you get out of trouble much more quickly than your hiking boots. A guy with a backpack and 25 pounds worth of weaponry is not going to win any quick-march contests.

If you have to bug out on foot, skip the 500-yard rifle in favor of something lighter and short-range. A guy with a backpack advertises to the world that he has something to take, and the name of the game would be evasion, not firefights at 300 yards. If they're more than 100 yards from you, you ought to be hiding from them or going the other way. You should only use your weapon if detection is imminent. For that kind of usage profile, an AR or M1 Carbine would be superior to an M1A.

Art Eatman
February 24, 2003, 08:54 AM
Absent nukes, I really doubt that any SHTF scenario will occur without any notice at all. Seems to me that a True Believer would have been paying attention and would be gone from an urban area before it actually happens.

Condition Yellow applies to observation of world, national and local events and tensions as well as to one's immediate surroundings.

If one is truly concerned about Horribles, one should develop such marketable skills that a comfortable living is possible in an area from which there is little or no need to bug out.

:), Art

Joe Demko
February 24, 2003, 09:04 AM
Bugging out? Where are you going? Who is there to receive you? Not trying to be insulting, but your plan is apparently to be a heavily armed refugee. If post-apocalyptic travel is your plan, let me make the following recommendations:
1. Don't.
2. If you must travel, use a vehicle.
3. Expect to be a target for all the others who are "bugging out" and want your vehicle and other stuff.
4. Expect some of them to be armed and also expect that their policy will be to kill and rob you , in that order.
5. Have a place to go planned in advance.
6. Have people there who are expecting you.
7. Have pre-placed supplies waiting for you with those people.
8. Neither weapon you mentioned is particularly appropriate for what you describe doing i.e. escape and evasion.
9. Weapons are tools. Do not become so emotionally bonded to a tool that you make bad decisions.
10. No matter how romantic it all seems when you daydream about it now, it won't be in real life.

riverdog
February 24, 2003, 09:24 AM
If I ever bug out, it will be days or weeks early and in a truck, ahead of the crowd. I'll have a back-pack, food, water, firearms and lots of ammo either behind the seat or in the bed under the tonneau cover. I will get out early, get settled in at my destination and wait it out. If I go for a walk it will be with a Camelback and a handgun.

I view a shotgun and M-14 as point defense weapons in most of these scenarios. Too much bulk in ammo for walking around without other support. An AR-15 carbine may be a good option for walking around. More firepower than a pistol, less weight and bulk than an M-14 (rifle and ammo). But that would be at my destination and in a patrol mode, not a travel mode.

Baba Louie
February 24, 2003, 10:04 AM
Were I to consider your scenario, in lieu of two long guns, I'd opt for a double barrel, shotgun, rifle combo with procurement of food as the primary reason. Self defense... an obvious secondary thought. That's why God made handguns.

Don't think I'd really want to pack 70 lbs on my back and even 10 lbs. on a sling at my advanced age (I ain't 20something anymore).

Destination... important.

If you've got one, prepare it for your arrival. Caches on route. Food, water and ammo.

If you don't... get one. Or share one with like minded friend/relative.

Enjoy life till it happens. Remember the Boy Scout motto.

Adios

scotjute
February 24, 2003, 10:28 AM
Put the shotgun/ammo in the car and drive as far as you can. Then hide it somewhere close by if you have to ditch your car. I go on hunts of up to 3-4 miles walking and I get tired lugging one gun around, much less lugging two long guns and a backpack full of 40+ lbs of survival goodies. Why don't you take a practice hike out in the wilderness with your alice pak loaded down and carry two 2x4's cut to gun lengths. I believe that by 5-6 miles you'll see what everyone is talking about. Secondly if your lugging 2-3 guns, you won't have one at the ready in case of sudden confrontation. It takes two hands to handle a long gun.
Maybe a .22 pistol would make a better back-up gun.

Blain
February 24, 2003, 12:40 PM
So if I have to choose one gun I should obt for the short range gun, aka the shotgun? I will try hiking with my pack...it should prove interesting to say the least.

Where do I plan to go? Well....I havn't exactly decided yet, but it will prob be a hike to a small town or a national park or some place such as that. We have yet to actually do a practice bugout, but we will to see how it goes and evaluate any problems we may have.

riverdog
February 24, 2003, 01:20 PM
While it's a good idea to do a run thru, don't fool yourself into believing that's the way it will go for real. IF the SHTF there will be thousands of K-Mart shoppers trying to beat you to the latest sale item .. competing to get to wherever they intend to go.

A National Park? Hardly my first choice of places to bug-out to. You can't control it before the situation, how do you expect to control your position after the competition gets there. You need to bug-out with a larger group with mutual interests. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Carla
February 24, 2003, 01:26 PM
I'm planning on bugging in. If I have to go, I have a large trailer to haul supplies and a truck to drag it with but only as a last resort --- or if I get sufficient notice so that I can get out before everybody else starts to leave. A four wheeler gives me good short/mid range mobility. Weapons include M1A, Garand, a 22, 12ga 870, Colt M1911A1 45ACP and a few others. More than anything else, I consider my mind to be my best "survival tool".

Blain, did you ever get your M1A to shoot smaller than 12 inch groups?

Carla

scotjute
February 24, 2003, 01:28 PM
I think he meant he was heading to the park for his practice run.
Not that that was necessarrily his bug out place.
Altho at least the game animals there will be sorta friendly, for a little while!

Trisha
February 24, 2003, 02:11 PM
Blain;
I'd consider having skills that would make me invaluable in a post EOTWAWKI environment far more valuable than a huge pack and pet rifles.

I live in a small town outside of Denver - and considering the insanity we saw up here pre-Y2K by the without-a-clue flatlanders, in a SHTF scenario, we'd have no reason to welcome you.

You'd stick out like a fool, have no on-site resources, and have nothing inherent about you to be a contribution. You'd be one in a horde of refugees, and we won't welcome resourceless strangers. Harsh but true.

And no matter how well you plan, if you're acting alone (and aren't a spec ops vet) you likely won't stand much of a chance at all. Three adults have a chance (if they've trained extensively together), two might make it, one alone has none.

Terrorist SHTF events will likely come in completely under the radar as nationally there are so many worthy targets, soft and hard, that are all but indefensable. Their total damage, though, will be comparatively limited - it's the social panic and the-sky-is-falling mob that is of some concern. . .

There's a wealth of good advice from everybody - think things over carefully, act definitively, and then get back to enjoying life, OK?

Trisha

Chris Rhines
February 24, 2003, 02:23 PM
Before you even start thinking about SHTF, 'bugging out' (or in), and the World Ending in Nuclear Fire, ask yourself a couple of questions.

- What threats am I trying to prepare for? Earthquakes? Tornados? Short-term civil unrest? Communist invasion? All of the above?

- If you are bugging out, where to? A cabin in the woods? The home of a friend or family? In most civil emergency situations, your most likely destination will be a Red Cross shelter or something similar, which pretty much leaves out taking alot of heavy weaponry. How far do you have to go, and how will you get there? Car? What if the roads are blocked, or traffic is too heavy?

- Training and practice. If you don't do any regular backpacking, forget about hauling an Alice pack on foot, you'll exhaust yourself inside of five miles. Ditto camping in the wilderness if you don't do that regularly anyhow. Gear is easy to get, but skill takes work. Do you know how to start a fire with a Sparklite, or with nothing but native materials? In the rain? Have you taken a first aid course?

Last recommendation - take a look at www.equipped.org. It's a very professional website dedicated to all kinds of disaster survival, and it contains a huge amount of useful information.

- Chris

P12
February 24, 2003, 02:29 PM
I'd consider having skills that would make me invaluable in a post EOTWAWKI environment far more valuable than a huge pack and pet rifles. :confused: Like what type of skill?

Ian
February 24, 2003, 02:41 PM
Some skills that (I think) would be good things to have:

Animal husbandry
Agriculture
Medicine/First aid
Structural engineering (can you design something that won't fall down?)
Construction (can you build it?)
Outdoorsmanship
Cooking
Engine mechanics

I don't live in the boonies, so I'd be eager to hear other ideas for good skills to have...

Trisha
February 24, 2003, 02:45 PM
Advanced field medicine, agronomy, veterinary science, botanist/herbologist, master electrician, advanced martial arts, chemist - for starters. Practical skills that will be invaluable in a long-term perspective, worth teaching to others.

P12, I see one's mind as the ultimate weapon/tool/resource.

Trisha

Chris Rhines
February 24, 2003, 02:45 PM
Like what type of skill?May I? :D

Primitive metalsmithing, blacksmithing and forgework.
Gardening.
Foraging (i.e. knowing what local flora are edible, and where to find them.)
Hunting, especally if you can process your own game.
Auto mechanics.
Distilling (fuel and recreational.)
Primitive carpentry/woodworking.
Medicine, again primitive.

That kind of stuff.

Edit: Ke-rist. Ian and I were discussing this very subject on the way home from the range yesterday. Shoulda known he'd post before me...

- Chris

Soap
February 24, 2003, 02:54 PM
If you don't do any regular backpacking, forget about hauling an Alice pack on foot, you'll exhaust yourself inside of five miles. Ditto camping in the wilderness if you don't do that regularly anyhow. Gear is easy to get, but skill takes work.

Exactly! Gear selection is nice but working on your endurance and skill set is even more valuable.

Ian
February 24, 2003, 03:14 PM
Yup - just like shooting. Buying a thousand dollars worth of boots and backpacks doesn't make you a hiker any more than a $1000 rifle makes you a shooter.

Trisha
February 24, 2003, 03:44 PM
Ian and Chris;
Absolutely! Your money means little if you don't have more common sense than the Goddess gives geese, and less still if it isn't exercised regularly.

We're still a few miles shy of really being in the boonies, but reasonably comprehensive self-reliance is kind of a prerequisite if you want to live up here. Locally, flatlanders who come up here for their "living in the forest" experience are called "eighteeners," because they'll be long gone 18 months after they move up here and realize there's no night life (clubs, restaurants, theatres, etc), the grocery store is about a 40 minute drive one-way (in good weather), and the closest hospital is in Denver (about an hour, once you reach the highway).

If one can live (not survive, but live reasonably well) starting with a simple hatchet, then one has decent basic abilities.

Blain & P12:
Consider getting at least EMT-Basic certification, and then pick at least two other skills from the lists from these posts. You'll have a ready answer when someone asks you, "So, what are you good for?"

Trisha

biere
February 24, 2003, 04:22 PM
Stuff timebomb2000 in a search engine. The site has moved but there is so much info on bugging out, bugging in, or just plain being paranoid you can learn almost all you will ever need.

A national park or forest is better than camping out in the middle of a 4 lane highway, but something marked on every road map is a place I expect to be a common destination.

The guns all depend on your area. A shotgun is great for getting out of the city or for in areas with lots of hills and woods. The rifle has penetration and long range and possably a longer and higher rate of fire than the shotgun. And all sorts of other things come into play as well. It all depends on what you can actually do, where you actually are, where you actually can go, and what you have to actually do.

Prepare for everything, and you become howard hughes or someone who isolates themselves totally.

Plan realistically and you can most likely accomplish everything you need too.

Overall I prefer the rifle because while a shotgun can use shot, slugs and sabots to accomplish many jobs, the ammo takes up too much space and weight if you actually plan to have a lot of rounds with you. If in woods and planning to stay in the woods, a shotgun may be better than a rifle though.

Some playing on sites dedicated to this idea will give you many concepts that can merge the two. From a battlewheelbarrow that allows you to carry a lot of stuff to a mountainbike with tires that do not require air it is out there.

P12
February 24, 2003, 04:25 PM
Primitive metalsmithing, blacksmithing and forgework. Done some knife smithing a few years back.
Auto mechanics. Ah, my field of expertise.
Primitive carpentry/woodworking Woodworking, carpentry hobbiest. May not be pretty but hey, it will not fall apart.
master electrician Always done my own electrical work. Hey, 110, 112 what ever it takes!:D
Construction (can you build it?) Built my backyard hobby shop. Still standing after a couple years. Made modifications to the blueprints (the roof-had to shorten it) to meet my needs. Hasn't leaked as of yet. Or sagged.
Medicine/First aid 16 hours of first aid training.

Just took a safe food handling class for my wife's restaurant. Don't know if that would count.

Always had a high mechanical aptitude.

So might I be marketable?

larry_minn
February 24, 2003, 04:41 PM
Lots of good stuff. I don't plan to bug out. IF I was forced (at gunpoint) to live in major city I would try to set up a place in country to aim for. Preposition the rifle there and ammo/food/other supplies. Then consider if you made it half way by car could you hoof the rest of they way? In rain? Snow? If not you MUST get out before everyone else tries.
Keep enough fuel on hand to fill your car/truck at all times. Every other month use it and refill. Or add sta bil and go 4x a year. Heck I have a gun, MREs,water, clothing, shoes, FRS radios in FL in case I am down there and things go South. Plus working on equip supply place down there. Basicly if down there I am stuck if SHTF :(

P12
February 24, 2003, 04:45 PM
Oh, almost forgot!!

Me be a ham radio operator. (tech class)

Also me can fly a plane. Taildragger no less.:D Haven't flown in several yearn. No one may want to ride with me until I put in some solo time and not kill myself.;) But, I've got about 300 hours. About 200 of that was in a Cessna 185. Man that is one :cool: plane!

I've built a model airplane. I could afix it with a downward looking camera. For surveillance work of course. I could even build you a few remote control items.:D

(just caint speel warth a dern) So no writing assignments for me please!

Trisha
February 24, 2003, 04:47 PM
It's a good start, P12.

Foraging and real backcountry skills (all 4 seasons) would be my next suggestions, along with something diversifying like basic microbiology (is this water safe/is this soil fertile/is this food clean).

Trisha

P12
February 24, 2003, 05:01 PM
It would all be a waste of time and energy for me in this post-apocolyptic world anyway.:( Bein' how I'm such high medical maintenance. If I don't have daily medicine for asthma I quit breathing and it's over anyway.

So, give me a field of fire! I'd be screwed no matter what.:(

Now to hunker down for a few days. No problemo.

Soap
February 24, 2003, 05:06 PM
ALL of the skills that you have listed are skills that my father has taught me. I'm far more well versed in some more than others of course. But I just realized that in today's society, parents normally don't teach their children skills such as the ones listed. While school is all fine and dandy for learning the three R's :rolleyes: we still have to pass on certain skills to the youngest generations. Not only will it be "quality time", it will also help make them better people.

Trisha
February 24, 2003, 06:16 PM
That's why I believe so strongly that we must all be teachers, leading the way by example; and I believe we must do a much more visible job of teaching, too, as this new generation isn't present and active in their millions.

We can light their way through dark times, and kindle light in their hearts such that they inherit the future with calm legitimacy and competence.

Trisha

ahadams
February 24, 2003, 06:17 PM
uhm, I think what Trisha said about not expecting to be welcomed with open arms in any random small town needs to be emphasized even more. My wife and I wont be bugging out, but that's because we moved here so we wouldn't have to. We, and most of the folks here in our little town will be expecting relatives, but that's going to be about the limit of our hospitality. You see those of us who live here aren't rich and we simply wont have the resources to support large number of refugees. It mostly wont matter what sort of skills you're bringing with you, since unless there's an extreme immediate need within the community, resource conservation and security concerns would again mitigate against taking in any total strangers.

The best way to 'bug out' is to move now, so you have time to become a member of a local community; not wait until everything goes down the tubes and then expect to be welcomed with open arms.

riverdog
February 24, 2003, 07:38 PM
This is one of the best "bug-out" scenario threads I've read. Excellent points about bugging-in and about having some previous ties to your destination if you choose to bug-out. Choices in armament are way down the list of priorities.

Frohickey
February 24, 2003, 08:14 PM
Look at it this way, the US Army only equips their mainline infantry troops with ONE rifle, and this is when they have a steady supply line.

Weapons are down on the list.

Food, water, shelter, clothing are first.
I would substitute the shotgun with a small 22LR rifle that can be broken down and put into the pack. That can be used for small game hunting (food). A skinning/butchering knife, and sharpening stones is more important than a 2nd rifle.

If you have an AR15, I would still pick a self-contained 22LR instead of a 22LR upper only.

Training and improving you skillset is probably better than shelling out money for the next wondertoy/firearm. One of these days, I'll spring for the COAGS (http://www.guideschool.com/) training. Anyone else out there know of a good program?

Blain
February 24, 2003, 08:30 PM
"You'd stick out like a fool, have no on-site resources, and have nothing inherent about you to be a contribution. You'd be one in a horde of refugees, and we won't welcome resourceless strangers."



That's just speaking out of plain ignorance. Manpower is good no matter what. Men are not stupid robots and even the most unknowledgeable person can be helpful and be taught to do any number of needed tasks relatively easily.

Setting traps, getting firewood, being a lookout, reloading ammo, fetching errands, fishing, or just being a hired gun for defense etc.

These are all useful skills that are easily taught to a 5-year-old.

In a post SHTF world numbers are what's going to matter. You'd be a damned fool to reject some good honest hard working people. Think you're home grown family of 4 could hold up to a horde of 20? I don’t think so, all your survival skills won't mean diddly then.

The most prosperous post SHTF areas will be those of local communities where there are small "towns" in the wilderness of 50-300 people who all have jobs and roles and all look out for each other. Think of the movie "No Escape" where there is a living working community where everyone has a part in. Such a community could a lot more easily survive by pooling talents and manpower. They are also a heck of a lot more likely to ward off hordes of looters and invaders than your little family of 6.

You don't like that idea? Then go it alone and in small numbers and you'll see what I'm talking about. I plan to do the smart thing, group up with a bunch of likeminded people, and we'd welcome anyone in who wanted to work and help us out. More manpower can only help us, both with defense from invaders and for getting extra resources.


Since the dawn of man, humans have naturally shifted toward the protection and benefit of groups.

itgoesboom
February 24, 2003, 08:46 PM
There is a bunch of good advice here in this thread.

One of the best bits of advice that i could give you is to find other people who are like minded, and also have good skills. I already know who i would want to be with in case of SHTF, and i have made sure that my skills make them want me to be with them too. Do you have any friends that shoot? Hunt? Fish? Any Doctors? If so, those are the people that you should make a plan with.

Also, are you married? Any kids? Realize that even if you are capable of survival, and capable of hiking 12 miles a day with 70 lbs of gear, your wife/gf/kids might not be able to.

Its good that you are putting thought into this process, but i would also seriously consider staying put if SHTF. There are many good reasons why staying in can be safer than being on the move.

--You know your area better than you know some forest 500 miles away.

--You may not have enough gas to get to your bug-out-location

--You might be injured, and moving could be very hazerdous.

--You can keep more supplies at your home than you could take with you.

--Everyone and their dog will be trying to bug out, and (1) there is likely to be a massive traffic jam out of town and (2) there will be massive crowds competing for food, water and land, and (3) the people who live in that area might not be too friendly about sharing their resources, and they will know their environment better than you will.


My recommendation would be to make a plan to stay where you are. Have food and water, medical supplies, waterpurification, and other disaster supplies.

In my opinion, bugging out should be a last resort, only if your home is uninhabitable.

With that said, it is a very good idea to have a small bugout kit available if you do need to run.

I.G.B.

Frohickey
February 24, 2003, 08:46 PM
Think about the flipside...

Here is an unknown person, asking to be let into the group. You do not know the person's background. He/she could be a plant of the group of looters. Bringing a new person into the group is introducing an unknown variable, and if the group already has ample numbers to protect themselves with, here would be another mouth to feed.

Besides, there are going to be hundreds of others wanting to join in too. What makes you think you'd be picked over any of the others?

Best is to gather other likeminded individuals and start your own group.

riverdog
February 24, 2003, 08:50 PM
I think the point Trisha and others are trying to make is that you need to establish ties to your chosen bug-out community now rather than later. Relatives in that community would be huge to your being accepted.

Just showing up after the SHTF will probably get you shot because you will look like the type a community will be protecting themselves against. Particularly if you show up with an assault shotgun and a MBR.

itgoesboom
February 24, 2003, 08:59 PM
There is a bunch of good advice here in this thread.

One of the best bits of advice that i could give you is to find other people who are like minded, and also have good skills. I already know who i would want to be with in case of SHTF, and i have made sure that my skills make them want me to be with them too. Do you have any friends that shoot? Hunt? Fish? Any Doctors? If so, those are the people that you should make a plan with.

Also, are you married? Any kids? Realize that even if you are capable of survival, and capable of hiking 12 miles a day with 70 lbs of gear, your wife/gf/kids might not be able to.

Its good that you are putting thought into this process, but i would also seriously consider staying put if SHTF. There are many good reasons why staying in can be safer than being on the move.

--You know your area better than you know some forest 500 miles away.

--You may not have enough gas to get to your bug-out-location

--You might be injured, and moving could be very hazerdous.

--You can keep more supplies at your home than you could take with you.

--Everyone and their dog will be trying to bug out, and (1) there is likely to be a massive traffic jam out of town and (2) there will be massive crowds competing for food, water and land, and (3) the people who live in that area might not be too friendly about sharing their resources, and they will know their environment better than you will.


My recommendation would be to make a plan to stay where you are. Have food and water, medical supplies, waterpurification, and other disaster supplies.

In my opinion, bugging out should be a last resort, only if your home is uninhabitable.

With that said, it is a very good idea to have a small bugout kit available if you do need to run.

I.G.B.

AZTOY
February 24, 2003, 09:05 PM
I have everything i need at home i am not leaving my house or land. :neener:

The only way i will leave is if every thing get destoyed! :banghead:

ctdonath
February 24, 2003, 10:08 PM
Different people have different goals with their bugout bags, ranging from full-blown survival to beat the crowd.

In working on my own BOB, it rapidly became clear that unlimited survival was not a reasonable goal. 95% of the time I am within 40 miles of home (rural setting), and the most likely bug-out scenario is a need to walk home from the city - either because the car is unusable or roads are impassable. I figure I can make the hike in 2-3 days, so I need just enough stuff to keep me going long enough to reach my long-term survival stash.

TEOTWAWKI/SHTF likely will only extend so far as making me hunker down at home or (should home be unusable) run to someone else's. The BOB must then facilitate 3 days survival. Anything beyond that opens up too many possibilities requiring too much stuff to haul fast.

carp killer
February 24, 2003, 10:38 PM
ahadams uhm, I think what Trisha said about not expecting to be welcomed with open arms in any random small town needs to be emphasized even more. My wife and I wont be bugging out, but that's because we moved here so we wouldn't have to. We, and most of the folks here in our little town will be expecting relatives, but that's going to be about the limit of our hospitality. You see those of us who live here aren't rich and we simply wont have the resources to support large number of refugees. It mostly wont matter what sort of skills you're bringing with you, since unless there's an extreme immediate need within the community, resource conservation and security concerns would again mitigate against taking in any total strangers.

I whole heartedly agree. Some areas, even if you buy a place now, it takes years to be accepted into a community. So plan now, if you want some place to "bug out to". I still believe Americans are generous people but I will look out for my own family first. So expect small towns to circle the wagons against big city refugees.

sixgun_symphony
February 24, 2003, 11:04 PM
Blain,

That is no plan at all. My advise is to put in some overtime at your job to purchase a bit of land so as to build a cabin.

You could get together with family and friends to purchase this retreat for normal use as a summer cabin & hunting lodge. When it comes time to run for the hills, you will have a place waiting for you.

I would advise keeping a motorcycle in good runing order and with a full tank of gas ready to go.

scotjute
February 27, 2003, 10:25 AM
Long-term SHHTF scenarios:
For those who are contemplating living off the land via hunting and fishing : you also need to give some thought to FARMING.
Just like the pioneers did. In fact it may be even more important now than then as there is not the super abundance of game as when this country was young. If everybody is planning on subsisting on venision and other game, that will get scarce pretty quick. Perhaps a "hoe", "shovel", and "axe" should be part of everyone's getting-back-to-grubbing-off-the-land basic gear. Not very portable, but definitely useful. Also a few pounds of seed every year should be part of your annual replenishment . Won't cost that much if you buy bulk from a Co-op.
As for land, perhaps large farmers close-by would agree to you share-cropping 10-20 acres. Particularly if you have seed and/or put in the manual labor as he may not be able to afford or get gas/diesel for the big tractor. Something to think about anyway, might work for some.

NewShooter78
February 27, 2003, 01:56 PM
Good info all around so far. My bug out plan includes between a squad sized to platoon sized group traveling together if the plan is to not stay where we are. I'm basically the one watching all the "warning" signs right now, but I do have an "overzealous" (thank goodness) uncle who keeps the family updated on other happenings. I'd try and make it up to him if SHTF, but since I'm in La and he's up in WA, that would probably be really hard to do.

I guess I should start making myself more skillful though, if I do have to travel. I'm pretty good at surviving and have some other useful skills, but nothing to make me stand out.

12.7x99mm
February 27, 2003, 02:11 PM
"it's the social panic and the-sky-is-falling mob that is of some concern. . ."


What do think will happen to you if your seen walking around with a long gun.

More than likely you be in the cross hairs serveral times over.

The only way I’m leaving my home is if a entire city is decimated by a nuke or some other god awful thing and my home is burning down.

M1911
February 27, 2003, 02:18 PM
Bug out? Where to? How many of us could reasonably expect to walk with a large load for a long distance? There was a time when I could hike 14 miles a day with a 35 lb pack. A 70 lb pack? No way. Couldn't do it then, can't do it now. And with my bad feet, I couldn't do 14 miles a day without a pack. My 105 lb wife couldn't carry even a 35 lb pack. And once you got there, do you really think you could be self-sufficient for a long period of time?

I'll bug in. Hole up in our suburban home. We always have food, water, and other essentials in the basement. And lots more guns and ammo than we and a dozen neighbors would ever need:evil:

labgrade
February 27, 2003, 08:04 PM
We're already there & if worst comes, we've buds with private planes to take us away to further pre-positioned "a coupla" areas.

Blain,

you thoughts of anyone being "understanding" is fatal, I believe. They won't be. Them getting to "understand" that you have any skill-sets might be the hardest thing you've ever done.

Best bet is to already be there. Second best is to get there (with pre-positioned stuff).

Guns won't matter all that much.

If you need 'em, you're already in harms way - not the place to be, IMHO.

ahadams
February 27, 2003, 10:14 PM
Blain - labgrade is essentially correct. Even under a best possible world scenario (sort of an order of magnitude above a best case scenario, so to speak) you get some place and form a group that gels into a community with no major problems; then start accepting outsiders...and what you're setting yourself up for is the first sociopathic predator who gets y'all to let your guard down.

Newshooter76 - if that's your plan, you need to make plans in advance to have primary and alternate routes which completely avoid small towns. since you have desert immediately east of you that might be something to consider in your planning. The reason I say this is that no small town is going to be friendly to a platoon sized unit with vehicles. You might be able to force yourself through one or two confrontations, but your goal is to get to your safe location - *not* burn up ammo and take casualties. Just a thought...

sanchezero
February 28, 2003, 12:17 AM
I'm screwed :) . Too antisocial by far...

The only advice I can throw in the pot is to get a real backpack. The ALICE system is total steaming poo. I'm somewhat qualified to give my opinion as I am ex-infantry.

The only thing I can imagine happened with that thing is that someone undercut the lowest bidder at the last minute :D .

There are tons of 'civilian' packs that would be excellent choices. If you have to go tactical, there's some good stuff there too (most all of us replaced our issued packs ;) ) in the aftermarket. I'd still recommend the civilian gear all around for general purpose survivally situations. Due to the nature of bureaucracy there's very little quality mil-manufactured gear.

:barf:

:D

six 4 sure
February 28, 2003, 01:37 AM
Well here's my advice FWIW. If you've made your mind up to take two long guns I'd suggest some type of quality bolt gun and a good scope, a "sniper" weapon and a .22 of some type for taking game. You should be able to carry a larger amount of ammo while keeping the weight down. This will be important if you're bugging out on foot. If you are "heading for the hills" on foot I'd also suggest making or buying a guille suite. You will go into "super paranoid" mode and staying unseen will be a good thing.

I'd also suggest purchasing a quality radio, and learning morse code. Both could come in handy.

labgrade
February 28, 2003, 05:24 AM
Well, six 4 sure, I'd bet that if you bet your life on anything firearms-related, you're sure to be a dirt-nap in a a hurry.

My best bet is to not be there at all - hunker down & live it out.

Really, my fave example, but things can happen. Do as you see fit. Personally, I choose to leave it all behind.

Worst case is an active action-thing is = The Plane can land & take us off to another pre-positioned thing-y. Frankly, I just don't want to be there, & won't be if I can help it.

Fighting is nothing I want to to do.

Bug out = bye-bye = later = see ya. I'm flying away.

Trying a "bug-out" to an already perfectly mapped Nat'l Forest campground is one of The Most Stupid Ideas I have ever heard. Nothing less than a pre-positioned candy-gram for those who'd want to eat you, just because they were there first.

& they will be.

You have nothing to offer to anyone who is already there.

If you are not already pre-positioned someplace, you will not be welcomed when the SHTF. = too late, not enough, too sad, & no way.

& so sorry. Nobody wants to "check you out" after the hammer falls.

Really, most of this has already been done.

Extras need not apply.

Only thing "extras" provide is a candy-store for what wasn't there earlier = your wife, your daughters ...... stuff in your car is merely "extra stuff" .... & will be "eaten" enough that you were never there.

Pretty bleak, I know, but whadaya expect?

It's the end of the world, no?

I'd suggest something better.

six 4 sure
February 28, 2003, 12:56 PM
I was just giving a few suggestions if he still insisted on bugging out on foot and still wanted to carry two guns.

Personally, I'd have to bug out. A rental trailer isn't exactally the structure I want to try and defend. Also, I'm a Yankee that just moved to the South. Most of them only joke about it, but in this type of suituation being different won't be a good thing.

I think I'll have the foresight to pack my truck to get to more familliar surroundings before it hits the fan. Just haven't decidedd where I'd want to go. Home to where I grew up and have family and friends, or back to where I lived in Nevada. Whatever happens I plan on wearing my Malon Labe hat in hopes the right person might see it an not shoot me. In this type of suituation you never know what might save your life.

six

labgrade
March 2, 2003, 03:10 AM
" Just haven't decidedd where I'd want to go."

Being brutal, I'd think you will be absolutelt screwed. If you don't kow where you will either stay, or go, I'd bet 100:1 that you are screwed. If you haven't already figure it out before the ahmmer falls, you're a refugee & likely toast.

Anywhere "public" you may end up will probably be aleady "taken" & simply a cast-iron bitch to do anything with. Carving out anything you'd want your family to live in would simply be unacceptable - I'd just betcha.

Pre-position & have a plan well beforehand.

& really, all paranoia aside, what's it hurt? Best case, you play-act some. Wporst-case & you .... ah, get to consider things more at leisure.

A Trip from The South to Nevada might be quote the undertaking. Other than that private flight, I bet I couldn't get to where I live in NE Colordao to somewhere south - having to somehow by-pass Denver's nut-cases.

& I think you pegged the dial = get out beforehand. But who'd ever know when TSHTF for real & forever?

Stuff's dicey, huh?


(no slams, six 4 sure, please belive, just those unending questions I can't help yakkin' about ..... )

J-Man
March 2, 2003, 02:53 PM
Man, there are some excellent ideas here! However, I think many of them are slighly off topic to the original question. Blain, you already have your weapons of choice and being that all good firearms are expensive you aren't likely to swap them for anything else anytime soon. With that said I would pick the shotgun over the M14 if you whittled it down to one. Only because the shotgun is more versatile being you can use shot or slugs. Still limited on range with the slugs but any confrontations you might get into while on foot will most likely be within "positive identification" distances (few people will fire on somone from a long distance without provocation- too loud, wastes ammo, and most people just aren't that evil). Ammo may be heavy, but the gun isn't, and 12 guage shells are about as universally available as any ammo could be (possible "resource conservation"). Granted, superior firepower and superior skill with that firepower will win most armed confrontations but since you are on foot (alone?) you will be limited in your defensive abilities anyway.
Now for the subject of bugging-out or bugging-in there are a few things people tend to forget. One is that the modern home is hardly a castle. Hard to fortify against breaking in and if the bullets start to fly there is little in the way of residential construction that will stop them (not brick, not stone facades, maybe log cabin). That and you have to contend with fire- which WILL be a big problem. But with all these disadvantages there is a lot going for staying put in an emergency- if you can. That is what bugging-out is all about. Moving only if you have to. Then by the easiest way possible, which will be by vehicle for most of us. Then if that fails, you are on foot. Each step down gets more hazardous because your cover is reduced and your supplies are reduced.
A few other points to remember in a SHTF scenerio:
-Desperate people do desperate things. There will be "lawlessness" on a scale that we can barely imagine.
-There are over 200 million guns in this country and most of them will get used. If at all possible stay low until everybodys ammo runs out.
-Trying to join up with an unfamiliar group AFTER things go sour will most likely not work. It will be a terrible time to live in and people will be suspicious of EVERYBODY. They don't know you so they don't know your skills.

And above all, make sure you still live for today as well as tommorrow! ;)

Med 10
March 2, 2003, 08:02 PM
In a true post apocalypse type scenario firearms would be important but not above basic food water and medical care. Asthmatics, people with diabetic problems, and heart conditions probably wont last long in the "new world"

So my advice would be to have plenty of youre prescription meds handy and have a meeting place set up with like minded individuals insted of wandering around aimlessley.

My personal medical kit contains a jumpbag with first aid supplies and B.P.cuff and stethoscope. As well as a pulse oximeter and BVM. Plus all the little stuff like Ace bandage and guaze wrap and bandages of all sizes. I also have an I.V. bag with a few liters of N.S.,R.L., and D-5W

I have a drug kit with D-50 for hypoglycemic emergencys,
Albuterol with nebulizers for Asthma, I have Phenergan for nausea, and nitro and baby aspirin for chestpain. I also have Epinephrine in a multidose vial as well as an Epi-pen for anaphylaxis and insect sting emergencys.

The hardest thing for me to trans port would be my 4 D-size O2 tanks. I have some more stuff like splints and C-collars and such but to list it all would take up too much space.

Hopefully these items would be enough to get the victim to definitive hospital care.

My group consists of myself, another medic, a mechanic, an electrician and a former U.S. Army combat engineer so I hope we would all be O.K

I just hope we never have to use all of our training one day:(

ballistic gelatin
March 2, 2003, 11:09 PM
Tell me again why we're buggin' out. It seems to me that the environment you know the best is the one you live in everyday.

If invaded, I could see moving your family away from the enemy. BUT I would hope to see many able bodied men running toward the enemy. Of course, you'd have to go through a background check/lie detector test/visual acuity exam/reading comprehension test/physical fitness test and oath of allegiance before you were allowed to help defend the nation.

So much for a rifle behind every blade of grass...

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