[Sven]

I was thinking about a new project, and now I'm obsessed... here's the idea:

Take an M1 carbine (maybe IAI) and add a removable 1x red dot as a 'past meets present' sport-utility carbine for use from 5-100 yards.

Fulton Armory (http://www.fulton-armory.com) is advertising the following:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/Carbine2002-400_50.jpg
21st Century Carbine!

http://www.fulton-armory.com/22M68_opt_8.gif
Scope Mount

http://www.fulton-armory.com/ARMSRingforCarbineAimpoint-200_50.jpg
ARMS QD Ring

http://www.fulton-armory.com/CompC_files/compc-test.jpg
Aimpoint

-

Drool....

Has anyone here had experience with an M1 with a rot dot or other optics installed?

Thoughts?

[dude]

LEOs have been using red-dot M1s for quite a while in some places

.........there is a simple but effective weaver rail that replaces the rear sight. I might put a red-dot on my IAI one day.

[Sactown]

Take an M1 carbine (maybe IAI) and add a removable 1x red dot as a 'past meets present' sport-utility carbine for use from 5-100 yards.

Whew!!...I thought you were talking about putting one on your Winchester. If you get a red dot for 100yds, I would suggest a model that maybe has an adjustable size dot. The dot may cover too much of the target at 100yds. Have you considered a 1-4X scope with the traditional cross hairs?

[Marshall]

OK I have 2 aimpoint on revolvers and I also have an M1 Carbine. Now that I have seen them together it has to happen! :D
TY very much.

[Sven]

Marshall: Glad to hear it!

Now begins the search for the perfect mount. The design shown above can be taken off with the swing of a lever. Looks good, for iron sight fail-over.

Others - lacking that feature - appear to allow you to sight while the dot is mounted, such as this one I just found on GunBroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7633438

Would like to hear advice from those who have persued this before - what mounts work well, and which particular red dot did you choose?

Something either fixed at 1x or variable from 1-4x, with a standard recticle or red dot sounds just about right for anything from CQB out to 75 yards.

Lets keep this ball rolling!

-s

[dude]

easy on/off is good..........but your zero is gone (no matter what 'they' say!)


I'm gonna go with the monut like in your gunbroker link for my IAI (if my smith can ever find it again in his junk pile). Right now I have a Ultra 4 dot being fitted to my favorite Dan Wesson. If it does not do it for me I'll put it on the Carbine

[Pappy John]

Here ya go.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid52/p01461c626ca4c103c5661ed07148a58a/fc976743.jpg

I used the cheapo mount from Cheaper than Dirt and it needed some major mechanical reworking to keep from shooting loose, but it works well now.

[Pappy John]

A better pic

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid52/p6daae854db7fd51160dcbd0996e86258/fc9763c0.jpg

This was just an experiment to see what kind of accuracy I could get out of my carbine with a dot, so I didn't spend much cash on it. That's the cheapest BSA scope that I could find. It has a 4 MOA dot and that's pretty much what it shoots now...4MOA. The only problem I have now is shooting low with a cold barrel by 6" at 50 yds. It takes around 10 shots to climb into the zone it'll stay at with the barrel warmed up. I'm thinking about losing the bayonet mount to see if that improves.

[curt]

I use an aimpoint with a 3 MOA dot on my AR and don't have any problem with practical accuracy at 100yds. I don't think there would by a problem with an M1 ,given its 100 yd accuracy, either. I use the aimpoint guick release mount on mine with little to no change in zero. I've become less of a fan of see through mounts due to the fact that they move your optic up too high and they sometimes provide too little a tunnel for the irons, thats why i went with a cowitnessed ARMS 40 flip up sight on my AR. However on the M1 if you want an instant backup capability you'd have to go with see throughs. I wouldn't go with a magnified (or certainly nothing over 2x) optic as you really don't get that much more over a 1x reddot at 100-150 yds and you give up something in weight, simplicity and quickness at CQB distances in my non-operator opinion.

I can't wait to see your M1903 with reddot!

[Sven]

Curt:

How much does POI move upon re-mounting, generally?

I'm not too concerned about it, as this would be a fail-over option... ie, taking it off and not putting it on again until after the skirmish.

BTW: Who's got an M1903?

-sven, with Carbine-itis

[curt]

Sven,
Well i've never done a real test of repeatability but i would guess the combined POI shift of the mount and the nut behind the trigger is about 1-2" at 100yds. Not significant in my book and this may not represent any shift in the mounts zero at all cause: most of the times i've removed it i've been messing with something else which might have caused the shift, Its a 3 MOA dot against a 1-2" bullseye, i shoot outdoors at quantico and there usually a crosswind which i don't really compensate for, and finally my groups sometimes require some errr estimation to compute the center.

i don't think any minimal shift in a qualityredot intended for CQB is significant espeacially since as you pointed out it would come off and not go back on until a calmer time.

About the 1903, i just figured anyone putting a reddot on a 60 year old warhorse design might consider further wackiness:)

[El Rojo]

I had a red-dot M1 Carbine builder I put together. Never was completely satisfied with it. I pretty much lock-tighted the heck out of the mount to keep it from coming lose. I think there is something wrong with my extractor, cause the gun stopped extracting right. I planned on selling it, so I had to take the mount off to get the serial number. Well the lock tite worked! had to drill the mount off!

It was sort of a novel idea, but i prefer the iron sights for dependability honestly. I like the idea of having a good low light optic for the M1 Carbine as the original sights are difficult to see at night or in low light. I just didn't find the combination worked well with the gun I had it on. Maybe a new IMI would be cool with one on it.

Cheap red dots are cheap and so are the $20 scope mounts for M1 Carbines. Try it. What do you have to lose.

I consider the M1 Carbine the poor man's AR. Now that I live in a SB23 PRK, I wish I would have just bought an AR when I had the chance!

[Onslaught]

I finally gave up on red-dotting the M1 Carbine I had. I'm spoiled with my red-dots on my AR. I want irons and dots... no compromise :) I knew that the M1 Carbine, Choate Pistol grip stock, and scout mounted red-dot would be PERFECT, but nothing was readily available.

Uncle Mike's made one, but it was a "mono-mount" with a fixed 1" ring. It clamped to the barrel in the "scout" position, but again, you had to use 1" optics. (and modify the handguard).

I had an idea to use the "M14" mount from Surefire. It could mount on the barrel, weaver rail "UP" (modified handguard again) but you could use a regular ring. It might even be possible to "see through" to your irons. You MIGHT have to open up the inside of the stock a bit, I'm not sure...
http://us.st3.yimg.com/store5.yimg.com/I/botach_1726_134793880

One last option (that doesn't exist YET) is from http://www.ultimak.com/ . I e-mailed them a while back after I saw their new Mini-14 mount, and asked if they had plans to make a similar mount for the M1 Carbine. They said they did, along with the FAL, PC9, and a few others. It was just a matter of time... I think it would be the best option.

[dude]

above it says:

"I consider the M1 Carbine the poor man's AR. Now that I live in a SB23 PRK, I wish I would have just bought an AR when I had the chance!"




I would consider the M1 Carbine the thinking man's AR for urban & home defence.

Don't forget that it was made to replace or supplment a pistol.........not as a battle rifle. One in decent shape can hit beer cans at 100 yards all day w/o a jam.

It has the 30 round mag capability, light recoil, .357mag performance*, reliability and ease of handeling with it's short size that make it perfect so-called 'carbine' w/o the over-penetration of the .223. (i'm not of the crowd that buys the 2650fps .223 shattering on drywall&plywood....as I have tested at the range for myself)



........... or the worry about such things as pistol-grips or the latest legal 'lee press-on' fake flash supressor.











*with the right $$$ ammo (that you would only use for self defence while using the cheap mil-surp FMJ for plinking/training)

[Onslaught]

or the worry about such things as pistol-grips or the latest legal 'lee press-on' fake flash supressor.
Ah, but if you PREFER pistol grips and flash supressors... The M1 Carbine can do that too :D (I don't do "press-on's... mine's pre-ban ;) )

[dude]

.........and it can do pistol grip post ban.

I'm thinking of souping up an old .30 Carbine with a Choate pistol grip stock that has been modifyed with M-16 collapseable stock and some red-dot optics. I will call it the .30 CARbine

[Sven]

You guys should help me out on some other discussions - i'm basically getting laughed off the other boards for this suggestion.

Start here on Jouster, for example:

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/carbine/carbine.pl?read=17696

...This is what we Texans used to refer to as "putting a $100 saddle on a $10 horse"...

Also BattleRifles.com:

http://www.battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=8677

No replies. I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree with the collectors, who get their panties in a bunch if you DARE touch a USGI weapon in any way with ANYTHING made after 1944... :barf:

So much for open minds. I'll stick to The High Road.

[dude]

the Battle Rifle place is a joke...........if you do not buy US GI and leave it that way they fell you are not worthy of air

[Sven]

Onslaught: Thanks for the lead on Ultimak (http://www.ultimak.com/).

I called them and spoke with Lyle, who was extremely helpful. He confirmed that the M1 Carbine mount is in the works. He said that it would mount similar to the Mini-14 product and referrred me to the following link for a visual (click image for link):


http://www.ultimak.com/gallery/M4instdetail.jpg (http://www.ultimak.com/M4instdet.htm)

No permanent modifications will be necessary to the weapon, and - although the Red Dot would block the iron sights while mounted - a removable base would allow fail-over to iron sights if necessary.

This is looking great - the best part? Lyle says that this product should be available within 6 months.

Developing...

[dude]

6 months.............i'll be all over that when it comes out!!

[Sven]

Someone on Jouster said that there would be ejection problems, potentially. As the brass kicks up and back, it might hit the scope, banging it up, etc.

The solution might be an optic mounted in front of the chamber... such as for this AK:

http://www.ultimak.com/products/rx23inst.jpg

How about an illuminated recticle, such as the Trinicon A.C.O.G. Reflex II... good for low light work... no batteries.

http://www.ultimak.com/products/thumbs/rxoxthum.jpg

More information on the Triji from UltiMAK: http://www.ultimak.com/Rx06.htm

Look at this sight picture... at 50 yards, the recticle is probably pretty close to the practical accuracty of the carbine in close range urban:

http://www.ultimak.com/products/trirange.jpg

Old school, new school.

[Marshall]

Sven,

Good luck man! If you get it worked out, let us know! As for screrwing up the iron sights, big damn deal. They are crap anyway, that little peep sight ain't worth a damn in my opinion. Ya wan't to know how I really feel about them? :D

Personally, I think a M1 carbine is a terrific platform for a dot scope, if it can be mounted well is another matter. I am with you, if you want something you want something, screw em if they don't like it. ;) Ya want to know how I feel about that too? :D




:)

[Onslaught]

although the Red Dot would block the iron sights while mounted
Two words... A.R.M.S. #5 :) (well, actually that's 4 letters, a symbol, and a number, but you knew what I meant)
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/scopes/Images/arms5.jpg

You can't see it from this angle, but there's a see-thru channel under that rail. Sure, it would put the scope about 3/4" higher, but you could still see your irons!

[Pappy John]

"Someone on Jouster said that there would be ejection problems, potentially. As the brass kicks up and back, it might hit the scope, banging it up, etc."

I just looked at mine and there ARE some very small dings in the finish on the underside of the scope's tube, but nothing on the objective lens surface. Since I mounted the dot I've put around 200 rounds through it without a hiccup, though that might change if you mounted something that was more overtop the bolt.

[Gordon]

I have a Ranch Products forward scout mount for my M-1 for 15 years or so. Ranch products also made the first full moon .45 clips. I don't know if they are still in business, I'll look.I used a 2X Leupold pistol scope(before scout scopes).I did search:Ranch Products
PO Box 145
Malinta, Ohio USA 43535
Phone: 313-277-3118
Fax: 313-565-8536
www.ranchproducts.com Although I didn't see M-1 mount in current listing I'll bet they have them still.:D

[Sven]

Below is more information from Lyle at UltiMAK.com... what a great resource!

-

Yes, the mount will attach to the barrel. Take a good look at the Mini-14 with its UltiMAK mount installed, and imagine that it's a .30 carbine. That's about how it will look. It will replace the upper handguard, and give plenty of rail space. The rail will sit low enough to use irons when the optic is off (you can leave the irons in place too, and not risk dinging something while drifting out the rear iron). If one wants a see under set up, there are some see through scope rings that may work, or we may decide at some point to make some just for this application, depending on demand. Personally, I don't like see-under at all.

The decision of Trijicon Reflex or, say, a tube bodied diode powered sight, like an Aimpoint, will depend on your priorities. The Trijicon sight axis is higher. No problem there for M-16 users, because it still needs a pedestal to sit high enough on a flat top AR. The Trijicon will not co witness on an AK or a Mini-14/30. No problem there on a .30 carb, since you'll not get co witnessing anyway-- the irons are too low on the barrel for that. The Trijicon "always on" feature is very liberating in practice, because you're always ready to go, and you never have to wonder if you've left your sight on, running down the battery. (The Aimpoint, with its new CET diode, will run for hundreds of hours on a single 1/3 N lithium cell, so you'd have to leave it on as you put it away in the closet for weeks to have that problem. It is also brighter than before.)

To make an example; a SWAT team, which is the type of unit that will always know when it is going into action, I would go with the Aimpoint. They will have ample time to open the lens covers and turn on the sight, and there is no question that they can have any dot brightness they want, because it's manually adjustable. Another benefit that you will never hear about is that the Aimpoint with its flip up covers, can cope well with aiming directly into bright glare-- something iron sights or the Trijicon cannot do so well. You close the front cover on the Aimpoint, and you have yourself an Occluded Eye Gunsight. Your aiming eye will see the dot regardless of lighting conditions, because it's a glowing red dot on a black background. If your other eye can make out the target, you're good. Your brain can blend the images. I've tried this on an 8" round target at 100 yards, and it works. You can sort of approximate this on the Trijicon, using the polarizing filter with crossed polaroids, but it's more fiddley getting it set up. A note of caution; you must be absolutely sure of your target and what is beyond it.

For people who keep a carbine for home defense, or for area defense, such as a security guard, or for those hunting for targets of opportunity, I would slant to the Trijicon, because it's always ready, right now. I also like the triangle reticle a little bit better for more precise aiming. Other people prefer the 4 MOA dot. If you use a reflex with one eye closed, you will like the better light transmission of the Aimpoint. With two eyes open, as intended, it does not matter, because your non aiming eye is getting an unobstructed view of the world. It does take some practice to get used to this, however. Most people I've seen try a reflex type sight for the first time, do not know what to do with it, and so do not see the benefits. With either sight (Trijicon or Aimpoint) you're getting a very well though out and designed product-- The U.S., and other special forces use both.

-

Food for thought... the Triji is looking better and better.

[Oleg Volk]

More food for thought, a comparative review (http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/Optics_Test.htm)

I can get away with a battery-powered red dot on an AR15 as I always have the co-witnessed irons...so is the sight is broken or not turned on or too much glare washes out the dot, I have the irons for backup.

With an M1 carbine, always on is good. I am not sure I like the Ultimak mounts because they place the optics right over the hot gas tube or barrel.

At close range, learn to shoot without sights...it is amazing how accurate you can be that way.

[Onslaught]

I spent the extra $$$ for a Trijicon Reflex II. I kept it a week before it was for sale. The whole lense is tinted, (I don't remember what color now... blue, I think) and it washed out the color in that one eye. Also, the amber triangle wasn't as obvious as the red dot I was used to.

Even if the Trijicon is your thing, I can't imagine the triangle being functional on an M1C or AK. The triangle was designed specifically for the AR to compensate for the POA/POI difference at close range due to the tall sights. On the M1 Carbine, sighting in on the top of the triangle at 100 yards would put the impact high at 50 yards, rather than low like the AR...

Are we just100% sure that the Aimpoint wouldn't co-witness with the extremely low "x-wide" mount? It works with the 'Tactical Carry Handle", which is pretty close to the sight height.
http://www.sableco.net/25efa7e0.jpg

[Sven]

Alright, I've cooled off somewhat on the red dot/optics idea for the carbine, but still might give it a shot for the heck of it.

Despite this, I still am very fired up about the carbine in general. I held an M1A Scout and a Garand the other day and DARN are those babies heavy.

The carbine is so short and light, I love it! I can see why this was so popular with 'survivalists' in the 70s. Probably enough gun to take out small game if you needed to hunt, and the ability to shoulder and shoot pretty darn quickly in a CQB situation.

I know the ammo isn't the pick of the litter, ballistically speaking, but you can sure carry a large number of rounds without hauling too much luggage around. Heck, you could easily have 100 rounds on your person without realizing it - try that with .308, Arnold.

Iron sights sound just fine... would love to hear more from those who have forward-mounted optics on their carbine.

Help me keep the dream alive.

[curt]

I know the ammo isn't the pick of the litter

I think that this is more a factor of the ammo companies just not putting any effort into it. If these companies were to wake up to the popularity of these rifles and the .30 ammo i bet we could see a big increase in the performance.

[Sven]

..which brings me to the idea of handloading for the .30 carbine.

S&B ball costs $8.35/50, whereas anything with soft points runs around $22.25/50.

Why such a huge price increase just for a different bullet?

I am saving my brass, and a Moderator (who shall remain nameless) here on the HighRoad is tempting me to get into handloading... anyone load for the carbine?

Maybe I should start a new thread.

[dude]

Because the ball stuff is all military-spec mostly from Korea (PMC & others) and the S&B from Europe. If you get the .30 Carbine bug bad enough you will get the Ruger Blackhawk. While military ball will shoot in the revolver, the cyl will quickly foul and the rounds will be hard to load.............. reloading will help because it shoots better (cleaner) with pistol powder.


I use S&B for plinking (lots!) and have a box or two of the $$$ Winchester HPs only for self defence use, keeping three 15 round mags loaded up at all times.

[Sven]

I emailed a friend with a link to this thread, asking for his opinions. He swore off forums years ago because of the misinformation he finds...

Here's what he had to say about Onslaught's post (don't kill the messenger):

Whether you're using the tip of a triangle, a cross hair, a dot, post, or a silhouette of Marylin Monroe's left breast as a reticle, your point of aim is your point of aim, your zero is your zero, your sight height is your sight height, and your bullet's trajectory is your bullet's trajectory; http://www.modernballistics.com

...

Actually, getting the sight height up from the very low position of the Carb's irons, will put your "near zero" further out, and increase your "point blank range".

[Crimper-D]

Accurate combo out to about 150 yds. FUN GUN!
As for the puny performance of the Carbine ball ammo -
For defensive purposes, load with HP's Or SP's = Way Better :D
I shoot ball at the range, but the carbine sleeps under the bed with a magazine full of SP's = the Red Dot works out real well as a night time defensive sight:what:

[Sven]

Crimper: Pictures?

[Onslaught]

Whether you're using the tip of a triangle, a cross hair, a dot, post, or a silhouette of Marylin Monroe's left breast as a reticle, your point of aim is your point of aim, your zero is your zero, your sight height is your sight height, and your bullet's trajectory is your bullet's trajectory;
I'm not exactly sure what you're friend is trying to say here, other than being rude and condescending. (Read TROLL-ish) I have my doubts that he has any experience with AR's and especially with the trijicon 12.5 MOA triangle, or he would know what I meant. I think what he had to say (although devoid of actual content in this case) could have been said without the sarcasm, since I shared what I had to say with only a smile and good intent. I don't need to go to a BB to "show off how knowledgeable I am about all things guns, (and dead Movie Star anatomy) and insult anyone else who doesn't know as much as I do". If I had not owned one myself, and had personal experience with the benefits and drawbacks, I wouldn't have said a word... Spend your $350 and find out for yourself.

If you want to know why the 12.5 moa triangle is probably not the most practical reticle for the M1 Carbine, just go to the Maryland AR15 Shooter's site (http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/zeroingmethods.msnw?pgmarket=en-us) and read all about the "2.6" over bore" sights of the AR and it's effects on POA/POI, as well as a little info regarding the triangle reticle of the Trijicon Reflex (http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/reflex300mzeroingmethod.msnw) that was designed specifically to work with the AR's unique sights.

And if that floats your boat, there's always the sights and optics forum on www.ar15.com, where you can search on the "covers 12.5" of your target at 100 yards" Reflex, and how some love it, some HATE it. Even our military (whom the reticle was designed for) seems to prefer the 4 moa dot of the Aimpoint, judging by news footage, # of Aimpoints at the range, and posts I've read.

[Sven]

Onslaught: I think his comments were offered in good humor, but without those smiley icons, its hard to read someone's 'tone'. Anyhow, he wrote back to me:

---

Correction. I went and checked my premises (always a good idea). I was
wrong about extending the Point Blank range. What raising the sight height
does is reduce the PB size. This is because it better centers your line of
sight within the arch of the trajectory. I ran some figures specifically for
the M1 .30 Carbine;

Muzzle Vel - 1930 fps
Standard Deviation - 10
Ballistic Coefficient - .179
Environmental conditions were kept constant.
==========================
For a sight height of 3/4 inch (an estimate of factory iron sight height);

100 yard Zero
PB size (inches) 2.31
PB range (yards) 117

150 yard zero
PB size 6.98"
PB range 176 yd

200 yard zero
PB size 15.05"
PB range 234
==========================
For a sight height of 2 inches (an estimate of where the Trijicon would be)

100 yard zero
PB size 1.39"
PB range 113 yd

150 yd zero
PB size 5.91"
PB range 174 yd

200 yd zero
PB size 13.97
PB range 232 yd
=========================
As you can see, the differences are not great. Your PB range will decrease
negligibly with increased sight height, but your PB group size will improve
noticeably. Very certainly, raising the sight height is not a bad thing.

Another thing I see in these figures-- A 150 yard zero on your M1C gets you
from the muzzle out to 174 yards, using the same setting, and aiming dead on,
with no more than a 3 inch deviation up or down, from point of aim (if you're
a perfect shot of course).

[Onslaught]

Onslaught: I think his comments were offered in good humor, but without those smiley icons, its hard to read someone's 'tone'.
True, text doesn't relay mood, so I got my "spin" from your comments.
"He swore off forums years ago because of the misinformation he finds... "
"don't kill the messenger"
And similar remarks from the PM you sent me... If you were just being overly cautious (as I frequently am), then I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

What your friend sent you this time is moving into the same ballpark of what I was referring to with the AR, but quite handy in that he uses the .30 Carbine ballistics.

Basically, the taller line of sight over bore (AR = 2.6") makes for, as your friend mentioned, a smaller deviation from line of sight on the way to your zero distance. The triangle is designed to extend that range even further, covering the pre-and post ranges (less than 50 and over 300 yards for the AR). But it does this at the price of having a 12.5 moa reticle, which, as I mentioned, means that you cover a full 12.5" of your target at 100 yards, or 6.25" at 50 yards.. That's a lot of target to be obscured, especially if you're not getting extra benefit of the greater sight/bore distance.

If you can get the Trijicon Reflex high enough over your bore, then, with some range time and your friend's figures, you could figure out where your bullet first crosses the line of site on the way up,(50 yards for AR) and again as it comes back down (250 for AR, 150 is your friend's figure for the .30 Carbine). But I still suggest that you take a look at a target you use frequently, and see what a 12 1/2" triangle would do to your view.

I make great effort never to add comment on subjects I have no information about, and I preface very strongly when I have limited or passing experience with. So when I read "because of the misinformation", I did take that as a direct comment on my input.