Help: Friend's AR having FTExtract


PDA






BHPshooter
October 7, 2004, 12:57 PM
My friend and I went shooting tuesday, and took a new shooter. :D He had a blast.

Anyway, my friend's AR (purchased new on Sept 14th) was having some problems.

The first time we shot it, we went through 100 rounds with no problems whatsoever.

This time, the first 30 rounds went perfectly, but then on the next mag it was having failures to extract (causing a "double feed" situation) about 70% of the time. I took his rifle apart and fiddled with the bolt and carrier, and then the next mag went through just fine.

Again, though, after that, it was pretty consistently refusing to extract the fired case. I thought it might just need more lube in the bolt/carrier.

After we finished shooting (our trusty Hi Powers never bobbled ;) ) we went to his house and took the bolt apart for a good cleaning and lubing. We also consulted the USMC M-16 handbook.

The whole thing wasn't very dirty, but I cleaned and lubed it up anyway. The handbook said to check the condition of the extractor and it's spring, and it was just fine.

I got an email from him saying that he tried it again yesterday, and although it did better, he's still having failures to extract.

I don't know what to think... he bought a case of .223 at the gunshow, and that's all we had been shooting when we were having the problems. However, I still don't understand the problem with the intermittent nature of the problem. For a while it's fine, then it will jam consistently. BTW, it wasn't magazine related, we used five or six different 30-rounders.

I would appreciate any help you could give me (and him) for this.

Thanks,
Wes

If you enjoyed reading about "Help: Friend's AR having FTExtract" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Kaylee
October 7, 2004, 01:07 PM
what does "fiddled with the bolt and carrier" mean? Did you break it down as far as taking out the extractor to check out the spring and clean out the channel in the bolt and all?

dbshabo
October 7, 2004, 01:24 PM
If you've checked the extractor and it's spring and are convinced it's ok the next thing I'd check is the chamber. There could be some gunk inside there that is acting as a sort of an adhesive causing the case to stick in the chamber.

Shabo

rbernie
October 7, 2004, 01:44 PM
Were all of the failures experienced using the same brand of ammo (such as Wolf) or a given type of ammo (e.g. steel-cased, brass-cased)? If so - retest using different ammo types and see if you can isolate the failure to a brand/type of ammo.

Duke of Lawnchair
October 7, 2004, 01:47 PM
Wes,

Does the gun in question have a rifle, midlength or carbine length gas tube?

What was the ammunition that you two were using?

Was the extractor ripping out chunks from the case rim?

Jim

Wildalaska
October 7, 2004, 01:49 PM
Wolf!!!!! I smell Wolf!!!!!

WildthenoseknowsAlaska

Master Blaster
October 7, 2004, 01:49 PM
he bought a case of .223 at the gunshow, and that's all we had been shooting when we were having the problems.


What kind of gunshow ammo was it????, did you check the cases for pressure signs, bulges blown, or cratered primers?

My guess would be its a problem with ammo consistency, did any of the reports sound louder or weaker than others?

rbernie
October 7, 2004, 01:56 PM
Wolf!!!!! I smell Wolf!!!!! Eggsactly.... :)

BHPshooter
October 7, 2004, 02:17 PM
what does "fiddled with the bolt and carrier" mean? Did you break it down as far as taking out the extractor to check out the spring and clean out the channel in the bolt and all?

It means that I took it out, visually inspected it, moved the bolt back and forth in the carrier, and so on. I didn't take it completely apart and clean it until afterwards, at his house.

If you've checked the extractor and it's spring and are convinced it's ok the next thing I'd check is the chamber. There could be some gunk inside there that is acting as a sort of an adhesive causing the case to stick in the chamber.

Thanks, I'll do that. I gave it a quick visual inspection, but didn't *really* look hard at it.

Were all of the failures experienced using the same brand of ammo...?
What was the ammunition that you two were using?
What kind of gunshow ammo was it????, did you check the cases for pressure signs, bulges blown, or cratered primers?

Yes, all of the failures were with this "gunshow ammo."
It was a 50-cal ammo can, with 1,000 rounds of what was labeled as "new manufacture Winchester .223."
We inspected every round that was loaded. There were no bulges, torn or bent case "lips," or dings, etc. Also no extractor marks around the rim... It all looked to be new brass.

The first time we shot it, we bought a couple of boxes of... Remington, I think. It worked perfectly. I expected Winchester (if it really is Winchester) to be just as good.

Does the gun in question have a rifle, midlength or carbine length gas tube?

Carbine length. It is an ASA "M4" upper w/ 16" barrel.

Was the extractor ripping out chunks from the case rim?

No, the rims were intact. However, when we finally got the cases out and inspected them, they extractor marks on some of them looked like the extractor claw wasn't reaching as far into the rim as it should have...

Wolf!!!!! I smell Wolf!!!!!

LOL! Nope... it is *allegedly* Winchester.

I suppose step one should be to have him buy a few boxes of other stuff and see how that works.

If you have any other advice, I'd love to hear it. :)

Wes

Mulliga
October 7, 2004, 02:21 PM
Wolf!!!!! I smell Wolf!!!!!

Shot 500 rounds of the new polymer stuff through my AR - not a single hiccup.

No, the rims were intact. However, when we finally got the cases out and inspected them, they extractor marks on some of them looked like the extractor claw wasn't reaching as far into the rim as it should have...

Hmm. Do you have another AR bolt to compare the extractor to?

Wildalaska
October 7, 2004, 04:06 PM
Shot 500 rounds of the new polymer stuff through my AR - not a single hiccup.

Too bad you dont live here, you could put us on retainer :)

WildloveswolfAlaska

dbshabo
October 7, 2004, 04:27 PM
If the extractor marks on the rims don't appear to be close to the body of the case I'd guess that you have a weak extractor spring. If so it isn't strong enough to keep the extractor in contact with the case rim when the bolt/carrier is forced back.

Shabo

Bwana John
October 7, 2004, 05:00 PM
Even though I never had a problem with extraction with my shorty Bushy AR I got a "De-fender" rubber donut to help the extractor spring. This is susposed to cure any problems with extraction.

meathammer
October 7, 2004, 07:41 PM
Couldn't hurt to clean the chamber with a chamber brush.


--meathammer

WalkerTexasRanger
October 8, 2004, 12:06 AM
Did you try different magazines. Very often FTF FTE problems are magazine related.

Also, you can try polishing the chamber. Put some JB on a patch, wrap it around the chamber brush, chuck the thing in a power drill and polish away. It has helped many an AR before....

Let us know what the solution is...

WTR

BHPshooter
October 8, 2004, 12:44 AM
Thanks very much for the replies.

Hmm. Do you have another AR bolt to compare the extractor to?

Unfortunately, no. :uhoh:

If the extractor marks on the rims don't appear to be close to the body of the case I'd guess that you have a weak extractor spring.

I keep finding myself thinking "that can't be it, it's new!" but I know that stranger things have happened. I'll put that on the to-do list if this doesn't clear up.

Even though I never had a problem with extraction with my shorty Bushy AR I got a "De-fender" rubber donut to help the extractor spring. This is susposed to cure any problems with extraction.

Hmmm.... Interesting. Where do you find these?

Did you try different magazines.

Yep, we were using five or six that all worked perfectly before, and the jams happened with any and all of them.

--------------------

Okay, here's my "to-do" list:
[list=1] Clean the chamber.
Try out different ammo of known quality. (anybody have a favorite?)
Try a new extractor spring (or possibly new extractor?)
??? [/list=1]

Question: How strong should the extractor spring be? I couldn't get his extractor to pivot at all under finger-strength... it seemed very strong... but then, I don't know much about the workings of ARs.

Thanks for the help, guys. :) I love this place.
Wes

gaven
October 8, 2004, 08:07 AM
Does the problem start after the gun gets hot ? If so it could just be a tight chamber, I have seen this before in D.P.M.S. uppers.

Master Blaster
October 8, 2004, 09:33 AM
whts the headstamp on the case say?

WCC and a year like 01, 02, 03 etc

OR does it say AMERC????????

Or something else.

Reason I ask is that I recall reading about some out of spec surplus that was supposed to be Q3131 but was manufactured for Winchester by AMERC, the fact that it was loose in the can makes me suspicious.

ny32182
October 8, 2004, 09:53 AM
The first thing I would do is replace the extractor spring, and the extractor as well just to be safe; they are cheap. I would bet that would take care of it. If you aren't getting chunks ripped out of the rims, its an extractor problem.

meathammer
October 8, 2004, 09:54 AM
Try out different ammo of known quality. (anybody have a favorite?)

Try some Black Hills remanufactured. The blue box stuff. It's decent and won't break the bank. I've shot a bunch through my Armalite with no problems.

If nobody asked yet, is your friends rifle marked as having a .223 or 5.56mm chamber? I'm not familiar with ASA.


--meathammer

geekWithA.45
October 8, 2004, 10:11 AM
FTE's in AR's are pretty rare, and most often related to gunk or shavings caught under the extractor, preventing it from grasping the case rim properly. It doesn't take a whole lot to obstruct the extractor from closing properly.

To check this possibility, remove the extractor from the bolt by drifting the extractor's pivot pin out. It should come out pretty easily. firmly hold the extractor in place while you do this. Extractor springs don't normally pop out, but they can, and they're devilishly small, and easy to lose track of. Inspect the channel under the extractor, and the extractor itself for anything that could obstruct it, then scrub it all clean. Re-assemble, and retest the rifle.

That's my .02.

BHPshooter
October 8, 2004, 11:11 AM
If nobody asked yet, is your friends rifle marked as having a .223 or 5.56mm chamber? I'm not familiar with ASA.

That detail completely escapes me... I want to say that it's a 5.56mm, but I'll have to check.

To check this possibility, remove the extractor from the bolt by drifting the extractor's pivot pin out. It should come out pretty easily. firmly hold the extractor in place while you do this. Extractor springs don't normally pop out, but they can, and they're devilishly small, and easy to lose track of. Inspect the channel under the extractor, and the extractor itself for anything that could obstruct it, then scrub it all clean. Re-assemble, and retest the rifle.

That's what we did at his house after the troubles... I cleaned and lubed it up, but it couldn't hurt to re-inspect it.

Thanks for the help!

Wes

jetman
October 8, 2004, 06:24 PM
Mine did the same thing a few times right after I had the upper refinished in Armor Tuff grey. I hit it a few times with a chamber brush and it all went away. Mine left NO unual markings on the brass at all, and is also a new Colt bolt/carrier.

Bwana John
October 8, 2004, 08:29 PM
"Ends AR-15/M-16 Extraction Problems!"
"Simply install this small hi-tech composite "D" ring and increase the force of the extractor spring by Four Times! Yes, it's a simple device, but if extraction is your problem, this is the simplest, and cheapest, solution you will find in the marketplace today."

http://www.10-22power.com/ARPages/parts_ar15.htm

Scroll down, it's about 1/2 way thru, they have it for $12.99.

BHPshooter
October 9, 2004, 01:15 AM
Many thanks John. :)

Wes

Harry Tuttle
October 9, 2004, 01:47 AM
The D ring is a band aid on a sprained ankle :p
you should not need to super charge the extractor to get proper function on a civilian semi AR15


American Spirit Arms is not regarded as a top line AR maker
http://www.gunkits.com

i would suspect ammunition, lubrication, extractor spring, gas port sizing, or the chamber

BHPshooter
October 16, 2004, 11:57 PM
American Spirit Arms is not regarded as a top line AR maker

Yer not kiddin'. Heeding the advice from you fine folks, we took the gun apart to see whether it was stamped .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO. Checked the upper in and out, and checked the barrel everywhere, even under the handguards...

Guess what? It isn't stamped for caliber ANYWHERE. :fire: I've told him to try to get a RRA upper... what do you think?

So we went out again tonight. I had him fire a few rounds of the stuff that has the malfs, and they all show that the extractor just wasn't getting into the rim.

We took a box of other generic stuff (NATO stamped) that he'd gotten at a sporting goods store in town, and it all worked perfectly.

I forgot to get one of his casings from the bad stuff, so that maybe someone could help me see what it all means... I'll try to get it tomorrow.

It seems that the ammo was the problem. (All mags worked with good ammo, jammed with bad ammo BTW).

Thanks for your help, guys. I'll post the headstamp later.

Wes

gaston_45
October 18, 2004, 01:20 AM
Another thing to check is the gas rings. If the gaps in the three rings are lined up it will fail to fully extract believe it or not. If they are lined up space the gaps roughly evenly around the bolt. I agree with another poster in another thread, stoner was just that, a stoner.

If you enjoyed reading about "Help: Friend's AR having FTExtract" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!