Glock 2004 Annual (remark made therein)

[one45auto]

There is an article in the 2004 Glock Annual entitled "Glock tames the wilds" and in it the author makes the follow remarks:

"However I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9x19 GLOCK, and I'll tell you why. Back in the 1970s when many US law enforcement agencies began switching over to 9x19 pistols, there wasn't a single commercial 9x19 cartridge that was an effective fight stopper, because none of them would expand reliably........During the 1980s bullet technology began to improve, and by 1990 had taken a quantum leap in terminal ballistic performance......The 9x19 still carries much of the undeserved stigma it did three decades ago, and this has recently been renewed by reports of its failures in Iraq where our military is allowed only full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets."


What in the world is he talking about? Has anyone here heard of these alleged "failures"? :confused:

Personally, I've never used anything but FMJ ammunition in my semi-autos and would feel absolutely comfortable using them in self defense.

Thoughts? Comments?

[mini14jac]

There have been numerous stories of police failing to put down a subject with 9mm fmj.
The Miami Firefight (FBI vs. 2 bank robbers) started the Feds looking for a bigger caliber for agents to carry.

Over penetration is another issue.

And yes, I've read of complaints from soldiers using 9mm.
While their ammo is much hotter than civilian fmj, it still makes a 9mm hole.

When I carry a 9mm for self defense, it always loaded with a 124gr +P Golddot.
When I carry a .45, it's got a standard pressure jhp.

Most modern semi-autos feed hollow points just fine, but I would run at least 200 rounds of a given load through a gun before I started carrying it.

If you do search of "stopping power" on this board, you should find a lot of info.

[Boats]

The original author's wordsmithing was just a fancy way of saying "effective 9mm performance depends on expansion." That is precisely why I won't own one for serious self-defense.

[armoredman]

Top quality 9mm ammo is very close in performance to 40 and 45, according to Evan Marshalls' dtat. Whther you believe him or not, that is. I tend to. It all depends on bullet placement, anyway, as any handgun round is weak to begin with.

[Brigrat]

The FBI shootout in Miami did not involve 9mm FMJ's, the round used was the 115gr Winchester Silvertip hollow point. This failure lead to the design, and subsequent prominence of heavier 9mm hollow points. Culminating in the now common Law Enforcement opinion that the best available rounds in 9mm are now in the 147 gr weight range.

[shoobe01]

Focus on 9 mm failures (and the corollary excuses for .45 failures) is common even now.

My favorite one from back in the day was this crazy, drug-addle guy who was cornered at an Illinois university (I am not describing it right) where the guy survived and continued fighting with over a dozen 9mm and .38 holes. However, it also took TWO full-caliber 1 oz. deer slugs to the torso to take him down.

Most of the FBI guns in the Miami incident were also .38s, but its generally remembered as an indictment of the 9 mm also. Why?

[Brigrat]

Because an autopsy on one of the perps showed that one 9mm 115 Silvertip stopped 1/2 inch before his heart. The reports following the incident were in essence an indictment of the light and fast 9mm rounds.

[one45auto]

I have to agree with armoredman that bullet placement is the key, because I have read about failures to stop involving both the .357 and .44 Magnums, fights that were ironically finished by the officers' .38 Special backup gun. We should also remember that President Reagan's life was endangered by a .22 in the hands of John Hinckley and yet I doubt that many here would choose that caliber for self defense. Clearly then, caliber alone is no guarantee of stoppage. So many factors are involved - clothing, body position, range, weight, and most important of all, God. Sometimes all the ammunition in the world won't help you whereas at other times one shot is decisive. It all depends. We do our part, and the Lord does His. Nothing more we can do.


Just out of curiosity, how many here (besides myself) use FMJ ammunition for home defense?

[Thefumegator]

Because an autopsy on one of the perps showed that one 9mm 115 Silvertip stopped 1/2 inch before his heart.

Yeah, and that's because it had to go through his arm, too. Although, yes, there are now MUCH better JHP designs for the caliber.

It's all about placement. The fault was that of the people involved; the 9mm just served as a convenient scapegoat.

Wes

[Nightcrawler]

I think people put WAAAAAAAY too much emphasis on ammo. If you think your gun needs expanding or fragmenting wonder ammo to do the job then you need need a caliber upgrade. FMJ or Lead Wadcutter should get the job done. Is an expanding bullet that makes a bigger wound channel better? OF COURSE. But that alone shouldn't be the deal breaker.

If I'm reading this correctly, the 115grn silvertip in question failed because it didn't penetrate deeply enough.

Guess what? 9mm FMJ will typically have little problem getting deep enough into the chest cavity, especially if it's a modern 1200fps, 124 grain load like current NATO ball.

"Overpenetration" is over-rated, in my opinion. At least, in the way it's described. Missed shots penetrating through walls and striking non-combatants is a concern.

However, the vast majority of "overpenetration" discussions seem to focus on the round penetrating clear through the hostile and then striking a by-stander. Review rule #4 of safe firearms handling.

"Know your target and what's behind it."

If there is a big crowd of innocent school children standing behind the pepetrator, perhaps you should reconsider the decesion to fire. Why? Even if the latest JHP round won't go clear through the badguy, you might miss.

Personally, I'd avoid any very light-weight, high velocity handgun rounds. Like 5.56mm ammo, they have a tendency to break apart, and lightweight projectiles moving at even high velocities lost momentum very quickly. However, unlike 5.56mm, these light, zippy handgun rounds aren't going 3000 feet per second. Also, consider the possibility of having to shoot through an arm, thick clothing, a backpack, a chest harness full of AK-47 magazines, or making an oblique shot where the vitals are farther away from the muzzle than normal.

It depends on your uses and your own personal requirements.

Personally, and with NO scientific testing to back up my opinions, I'd avoid:

-9mm ammo of less than 124 grains
-.357 Magnum ammo of less than 125 grains (158 is better, 110...forget about it)
-.45ACP of less than 185 grains
-Any fragmenting or "limited penetration" pistol ammo. Pistol ammo penetrates poorly enough to begin with.

[Preacherman]

Same old debate... :rolleyes:

Folks, let's be very clear on one thing: no handgun round is powerful enough to guarantee a quick stop, whether with one shot or several! Even the lowly .30-30 is two to three times as potent, in energy terms, as a .44 Magnum round from a handgun. One should expect to have to use more than one handgun round to stop a BG, even with perfect COM bullet placement: the only exception is if one can put a round into the CNS, and that's really, really difficult to guarantee under the stress of a firefight, with one or both parties moving.

If a CNS hit can be obtained, even a .22 will stop the fight right there. If not, expect to have to hit the BG more than once, and if he's hopped up on something, even a magazine full might not be enough! Doesn't matter whether you're using 9mm., .45, or anything else...

[AZGlock21]

I feel perfectly adequate carrying a 9mm although I do use 147gr Hollow points. The only gun that I will consider carrying ball ammo is my .45acp's. but this is just my opinion.

[tulsamal]

I consider 9mm to be perfectly adequate for "serious social work" but only with modern expanding ammo. Lots of good stuff out there. FMJ _might_ make some sense in .45 ACP but I just can't see a civilian using it for self-defense. I love a revolver in .357 Magnum as well but I sure as heck don't load it with non-expanding bullets! The velocities of the top loads are only 100-150 fps apart so why wouldn't you load them with similiar bullet designs? (Unless there really was a reliability problem with HP's in auto pistols but that really shouldn't be an issue with something like a Glock 17.)

Gregg

[CAS700850]

It's funny. When I got into reading about firearms back in the early 80's, the big debate was 9mm vs. .45. Seemed like most everywhere I turned, I'd find an article that made some reference to the issue. A review of a 9mm handgun would often state "a fine handgun, though lacking the power needed for serious work."

I've now been involved in law enforcement for over 10 years. I know of a case where a guy took a 12 gauge slug in his thigh, blowing out his femur, who continued shooting back at the attacker, despite being unable to stand. I know of another case where one hit from a feeble .380 fmj put the victim down immediately, and ended up fatal.

And, how many articles have we read about the imprtance of mindset? KNow you are alive, keep fighting. I recently read an account from Mas Ayoob of an officer shot several times with a .357, unable to use his dominant hand, who kept going, used his off-side hand to kill his attacker with a head shot, and who survived the incident depite massive injuries.

A wise man once told me to choose a gun I could shoot quickly and accurately, and practice, practice, practice. I chose a Glock 19 because I can shoot it accurately and quickly. I load with 124 grn. +p Gold Dots because they are accurate in my Glock, and any expansion will be a good thing.

[Archangel]

9mm FMJ will typically have little problem getting deep enough into the chest cavity

9mm FMJ will penetrate about 30" in ballistic gelatin. That's WAAAAAAY more than you need to get to the vitals of any human I know of. 18" is the maximum desired penetration depth, according to the FBI's ammo testing protocol. 9mm fmj will do nearly twice that.

The problem with overpenetration, aside from the bullet still travelling down range, is that it is a waste of energy. That energy is better used in expanding and doing tissue damage. Also consider that bullet expansion increases your margin of error for hitting small targets like the spine or major blood vessels. A shot that just misses the CNS with a FMJ would hit it with an expanded bullet.

While shot placement is certainly more important than bullet design, bullet design is not irrelevant. You wouldn't carry a rusted Lorcin for your CCW gun, so why should your defense ammo be less important? And if FMJ were good enough for defensive use, why does every police department that I know of issue hollow points?

[Gunmeister]

Practice is the key to self defense with a handgun. Don't waste your time practicing headshots. Heads bob and weave and are difficult targets. COM is usually covered by clothing, armor and lots of bone. I believe in practicing double taps to the less protected areas of the body. For example, a 9MM in the gonads will cause some grievous pain for a BG, but more realistically a lower abdoman shot that can break the pelvis or backbone will instantly drop anyone regardless of his size or if he's high on something. It may not kill him but he is instantly immobilized. A 9MM 147gr JHP should do that job nicely. No bones to penetrate so a double tap to that region followed by a double tap to the upper torso is my practice regimen and IMHO should get the job done. My practice targets at the range do get some strange looks when others view them but most agree it will work.
As has been said, a handgun is a weak weapon which dictates that shot placement is vital. Practice, practice and practice some more. Get to know your carry gun as well as you know the hand that holds it.

[JohnKSa]

A lot of the stigma the 9mm is stuck with came from Elmer Keith who was rabidly against any handgun cartridge that didn't start with a 4.

Here's a quote that illustrates this severe bias:
"The .38 Special is inadequate and the .357 while better has also failed to stop return fire after several hits on a great many occasions." Elmer Keith 1973

I've got to say that even with three more decades of shootings than Elmer had to draw from I still can't say that I've heard of a "great many occasions" where "several hits" from a .357Mag has "failed to stop return fire."

Clearly there have been SOME failures to stop with multiple .357Mag hits, but a "great many" seems like a pretty serious exaggeration.

Furthermore, while the .38 is considered near the bottom end of the self-defense power spectrum, there are very few knowledgeable people who would outright declare it to be inadequate--Keith ranked the 9mm with the .38 saying he "would not recommend any 9mm as much of a gun for self-defense."

Keith goes on to praise the 41 and 44 magnum as "the best police guns of all" in the article from which the first quote was taken. Again, this runs somewhat counter to the real world where both of these cartridges are considered poor choices for law enforcement/self-defense.

I'm not attacking Keith, he was VERY knowledgeable--but like everyone, he had a screwy opinion or two. His just got a little more press than most folks. Plus, bullet design has come a long way since the early 1970s.

Another of Keith's (less publicized) ideas was a police car with a split windshield so one half could be retracted to allow the officer to shoot at a car he was pursuing...

[goalie]

It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

[Billy Sparks]

It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

Oh, I like that quote. I will be using that again.

[jc2]

You really have to take Keith in the context of his times. It was largely before reliable hollow-points (even for the .357 Magnum--not 125-grain SJHPs yets), the .38 Specials were stoked with 158-grain (not FBI loads yets), and the nine were probably firing SAAMI spec'd 115-grain FMJs (well before reliably feeding/expanding JHPs). Given the choices of .357 Magnum 158-grain LSWCs (boy did those thing lead the barrel), .38 Special LRNs and 9x19 SAAMI spec'd 115-grain FMJs, I'd would have probably opted for a .41 or .44 as well.

[JohnKSa]

jc,

That's exactly correct!

The problem is that people remember WHAT he said but not WHY he said it, or the technological and historical context of his statement.

Still, even considering these things, he had a pretty strong bias against the .357/.355 cartridge--I'd like to see some data on the "great many" failures to stop with multiple hits from a .357--even with old bullets.

Anyway, that's Keith for you--you gotta love the guy even with his warts--he didn't like sub-40 handgun cartridges and he did his best to pass that bias along to a generation of gun-owners. He succeeded, I guess.

[Nightcrawler]

Once again, if you feel your pistol absolutely requires expanding ammunition to be effective, you should consider a caliber upgrade.

Expansion is nice. It is not necessary. It improves your odds...a bit. But we're talking in terms of less than an inch here.

No offense to the FBI, but gelatin doesn't have bones. Gelatin doesn't put big muscled arms in the way of the bullet. And gelatin certainly doesn't wear chest harnesses or web gear.

As for "wasted energy"...kinetic energy doesn't directly translate into either tissue damage or terminal effectiveness.

Basically, all a pistol round, especially something like 9x19 is going to do is make a hole. It doesn't have enough energy to get the massive tissue disruption associated with rifle rounds. (The "temporary cavity", as it's called.) Pistol rounds just typically poke holes. (With the exception of the uber-magums that have rifle-like energy levels.) Rifle rounds do more than poke holes. Anyone who thinks, for instance, that a .300 Win Mag FMJ round will just drill a 0.3" hole through the target, no different than if it had been shot with a .30-30, a .30 Carbine, or a 7.62 Nagant round, probably doesn't understand physics very well.

Anyway.

Is a .355" hole that gets bigger to .455" good? Sure.

Is a .355" tunnel clean through the target good also? Yes.

Is one better than the other? Hell, I don't know. Depends on where the hole is. That brings us back to shot placement, yes?

As I've said before, anything that penetrates deep enough will get the job done, if you do your part. Never sacrifice penetration for expansion, fragmentation, or whatever. Those are nice, but are secondary to drilling the hole through the badguy. Hollow points and soft points just increase your odds a bit, I suppose (as does carrying a larger bore handgun, along those same lines), but with handgun cartridges I'd bet the difference would border on being statistically insignificant (Sorry Mr. Sanow, I'm just not buying your percentage numbers.)

As for the police...I don't care what the police carry. The police in Michigan carry Glocks. I don't carry a Glock. The police in Michigan drive Crown Victorias. I don't drive a Crown Vic.

Let me put it this way. If ALL YOU COULD GET was FMJ or other non-expanding ammo, would you throw away your 9mms? Even if you were really good with them, and could hit the smallest of targets with them?

I'm not telling anyone to switch to ball ammo. But if that's all you can get, don't worry about it. As long as you can use the pistol in question, you'll be alright.

When I buy JHP ammo, I just buy whatever I can find on the shelf (sometimes I look for +P, but I don't worry about it). I don't feel the least bit undergunned with regular ball ammo.

Heck, every day I carry a 9mm Beretta loaded with ball ammo. I figure I'll have to shoot the badguy two or three times, but if it was stoked with JHPs I'd expect to do the same anway.

[one45auto]

I agree, Nightcrawler. I've never used anything but ball ammo in my Series 80 Colt and my Glock 19 is loaded with FMJ. I certainly don't feel undergunned.

[Al Thompson]

The first critter I shot with .45 cal ball ammo was a revelation. The wound track was very unimpressive and made me take a hard look at what I was using.

If I have to use ball (regardless of caliber), hopefully my hair covered computer will remember to shoot multiple times as your essentially shooting someone with a "knitting needle". Not much tissue disruption and darn little shock. :(

Last pig I killed got a finisher with a G19 loaded wiith +P 124 gr Gold Dots.

The Gold Dots did what they've done for me for years - shoot well and blow a nickel to quarter sized exit wound on deer and pigs.

The 9mm GDs produce a much more effective (IMHO) wound track than .45 ball - this year I hope to test some 230 grain GDs out of my 1911.

[MMcCall]

The 9mm GDs produce a much more effective (IMHO) wound track than .45 ball - this year I hope to test some 230 grain GDs out of my 1911.

The 230grain .45ACP Gold Dot's performance is also outstanding, it's been my carry round for a couple years now. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[Devonai]

Let me put it this way. If ALL YOU COULD GET was FMJ or other non-expanding ammo, would you throw away your 9mms? Even if you were really good with them, and could hit the smallest of targets with them?

Exactly. With my Beretta 92FS and 124 grain FMJ I can shoot a 1" group under the best of circumstances, and also keep all my shots in a 18" silhouette during what I call "panic fire" at up to 25 meters. Add the slightly higher recoil of my preferred Speer GDHP +P and my follow-up shots begin to suffer, especially during sustained fire. Either way, five COM hits with 9mm FMJ or JHP in two seconds is going to ruin anyone's day.

[Longbow]

IIRC, what ended the fight was a .38 cal snub revolver. It's less powerful than the 9mm, but it did its job (head shot?). Shot placement is the key!

[Al Thompson]

Shot placement is key - but if my choice is between a good JHP/HP and ball in a given major (.38/9mm and up) caliber, the JHP/HP gets the nod.

I can't imagine any event involving SD where I would rather have ball than a good expanding bullet. Shoot something sucking oxygen with both and you'll see what I mean.

[mini14jac]

IIRC, what ended the fight was a .38 cal snub revolver. It's less powerful than the 9mm, but it did its job (head shot?). Shot placement is the key!

Nope, it was a FBI agent, with his right arm almost detached by a Mini 14 shot, using a 12 guage pump in his left hand.
I've seen the movie, the documentary, and I've got a link to the FBI data:FBI Reading Room: Miami Shootout (PDF files, take a while to load) (http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm)

I guess my original reply did imply that 9mm fmj was used in Miami, and that was not the case. But, that incident was taken as an indictment on the 9mm as a whole.
The end result of that shootout was that FBI agents started carrying .40 cal. handguns.

Just a couple more thoughts:
- The Miami shootout is anybody's worst nightmare: Going up against a rifle with a handgun. If I recall, there were AR15s in the trunk of some vehicles, but the agents didn't have time to get to them.

- I do agree that shot placement is key, but the problem is, people don't hold still when you are shooting at them. (Go figure!)
As far as shooting at the gonads, it is a novel idea, but if a person is behind cover, you'll have to shoot at what is exposed. Usually a small part of the upper torso.

-Lastly, it's fine to be confident in your carry gun, if you confidence is based on facts. I may feel completely fine hunting bear with my .380 KelTec, until I had to actually shoot a bear. Then I may get a lesson in reality.

-I sometimes carry a 9mm (124 gr +P Gold Dots) because it is small and conceals well. I even carry the .380 when I can't manage the 9. But, if at all possible, I carry a .45 loaded with Win. 230gr jhp.
I feel much more comfortable carrying the .45.

[jc2]

Nope, it was a FBI agent, with his right arm almost detached by a Mini 14 shot, using a 12 guage pump in his left hand.
Go back and check the facts. It was SA Mireles firing .38 Special 158-grain LSWCHPs (the FBI load) that ended the fight. He had been previously wounded and had emptied a 12 gauge shotgun at them but which was proven to be relatively ineffective. He then reloaded his revolver and advanced on the car firing the shots that finally knocked Platt out of the fight. While the shotgun figured in the fight it was actually SA Mireles with his revolver that ended the fight.

[CAS700850]

mini14jac, I can do you one better. Ed Morales, the agent you speak of, came to Central Ohio a couple of years ago, and I both heard him give a talk about the shoot-out, and met him after the talk. Very nice man.

For him, his desire was to do whatever was necessary to help his friends, the agents lying around him. That desire drove him to overcome his injuries and do what needed to be done. What is amazing is what he actually did. He fired a 12 gauge pump shotgun one handed over a downed agent and into the feet of one of the bad guys, under the opened car door. Think about that shot, and then think about doing it with your heart rate jacked up through the roof, blood flowing from your seriously injured left arm, and over the body of your friend while taking fire. Heroic isn't strong enough.

After emptying the shotgun, he drew a Smith .357 revolver (I think a 4" 686) loaded with the 158grn LSWHP, and charge dthe car firing one handed, emptying the revolver into the two bad guys. That ended the fight.

He stressed the importance of mindset and practice with your firearms. enough said.

[CommanderPoopyduX]

I carry a .45 and as a backup a .357 magnum....If those don't stop someone, nothing will

[Longbow]

He stressed the importance of mindset and practice with your firearms. enough said.

Yup, proper mindset and shot placement, that really sums it all up.

[mini14jac]

Hey, I stand corrected.
I just remember Agent Morales cocking the shotgun one-handed and firing repeatedly. I had forgotten about the revolver.

If I remember the facts, (which obviously I don't do very well :cool: ), the FBI agents had loaded their .357 revolvers with .38 +P because of some Miami (or Florida) law against LE using .357.
You've got to wonder if the battle would have gone differently had they been able to carry full-house loads.

In the documentary, you could see Morales arm, as he sat talking to the interviewer (several years after the shootout).
Looked like his arm will never be anywhere near normal again.

Having never been in combat, I can't imagine what those guys went through.
In addition to everything else, imagine seeing several of your friends/ coworkers lying on the ground, (some dead, some wounded) and still finishing the fight.

Morales is awesome!

[jc2]

the FBI agents had loaded their .357 revolvers with .38 +P because of some Miami (or Florida) law against LE using .357.
No, the .38 Special 158-grain +P LSWCHP (the FBI load) was standard issue. I believe the agents had the option of qualifying with and carrying .357 Magnums (Silvertips I believe), but a lot (most?) didn't.

[CAS700850]

Morales said that the .357 option was left to the senior Agent in Charge of station. the 158 +p was the standard load for revolvers, and only with special permission could you load .357. They didn't have authority.

Don't know if this would have made much of a difference. From what I saw, most agents were using 9mm or .38 revovers.