Who is aiding/supplying the Iraqi Rebels?


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ballistic gelatin
October 8, 2004, 01:07 PM
I keep wondering how these "rebels" are able to stage the assaults on troops in Iraq. Sure, i know small groups can wreak havoc, but I can't help but think the Chinese or Russians are secretly supplying them with weapons and information.

Any thoughts?

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Preacherman
October 8, 2004, 02:29 PM
Think Iran.

jefnvk
October 8, 2004, 02:30 PM
I don't think the big Russian or Chinese gov't is helping them, but more like local commanders 'losing' arms and ammo for lumps of money being put in their bank accounts.

And don't forget that there are millions of weapons unaccounted for all over the world. And, I bet that many have their weapons from their time in Saddam's army, and the local armories were probably looted.

RON in PA
October 8, 2004, 02:31 PM
Before I'd speculate that Russians or Chinese are involved remember that Iraq was /is one big arms dump that was not cleaned up or properly secured by our people ( under manned IMO). The rebels are probably Baath loyalists and Al Quida.

ballistic gelatin
October 8, 2004, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't mind having a couple of RGP's.

When do you think they'll be availabel here in the states. Other than hollywood.

rick_reno
October 8, 2004, 02:43 PM
There were large stockpiles of arms all over the country when the war "ended". We stood by while they looted these stockpiles, which they're now using to kill our troops. I've read of our troops helping them load artillery shells (now being used to fabricate IED's) into their car trunks when Saddam fell.

moa
October 8, 2004, 02:47 PM
Last I heard in the news, we have uncovered 8,600 munitions dumps in Iraq so far. Some of them are huge. I get the impression there is no way to destroy or protect all those dumps with the number of troops we have there. According to the article I read, we have 6,000 troops engaged in finding an securing those dumps.

After the war was over there was massive looting. And, in number of instances, the Iraqi military commanders told their troops to go home and take their weapons with them.

But, I was just thinking. It is the occupation policy to allow at least one weapon in every household for self protection. Maybe more than one. If that is the case, and the occupation is so hated by the Iraqis, then IMHO Iraq would be 24x7 shooting gallery nationwide. It ain't. At least not yet.

And, there is no doubt that money, weapons and fighters are coming from Iran. That is to be expected.

foghornl
October 8, 2004, 04:19 PM
I would say that Syria could be way up the list of "Usual Suspects". . .

Valkman
October 8, 2004, 04:29 PM
France, Germany, Russia and China have all sold Iraq weapons since the first Gulf War. The usual excuse is to say that Iraq got them before 1991 but the French missles hitting our planes were made after that. Read "Treachery" by Bill Gertz to learn all about this - plus we're getting closer and closer to getting the list of names of our "allies" who've worked against us by selling arms to Saddam. These people made millions if not billions in the "Oil for Food" fiasco, and it's no suprise they then blocked us in the UN so we "couldn't" go after their sugar daddy Saddam.

moa
October 8, 2004, 04:46 PM
During the 2003 Iraq war, two M1 Abrams tanks were knocked out by a was top-of-line Russian anti-tank weapon which was fielded in 1996 in Russia. Kornet I think is the name of the weapon.

gigmike
October 8, 2004, 05:08 PM
My guesses are as follows. Financial support from wealthy Islamists in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria and other Muslim states. Warm bodies to carry guns & bombs, from most any refugee camp in the middle east.

If you'll think back to the height of the troubles in Norther Ireland, the cash came from not only the eastern bloc but also wealthy people of Irish extraction in the US, Europe and also the Irish republic.

Vern Humphrey
October 8, 2004, 05:31 PM
Quote:
----------------------------------------
If you'll think back to the height of the troubles in Norther Ireland, the cash came from not only the eastern bloc but also wealthy people of Irish extraction in the US, Europe and also the Irish republic.
-----------------------------------------

Don't sell the British short -- they contributed their share to the Loyalist terrorists and paramilitaries.

PMDW
October 8, 2004, 05:51 PM
I wouldn't mind having a couple of RGP's.

You can get them now.

http://www.autoweapons.com/photosn/photosfeb04/dd1-48rpg.html

$7995


As far as the Iraqi situation goes, I suspect they are using stuff that was already in Iraq before the war. There is alot of stuff over there.

moa
October 8, 2004, 06:16 PM
Pentagon estimates are between 650,000 and one million tons of munitions in Iraq. How many actual weapons is anybodies guess.

We will be fighting over there for years to come.

Vern Humphrey
October 8, 2004, 06:32 PM
The War on Terror is like the War on Disease -- we can keep it down, but there will never come a day when we can lay off all the doctors and flush all the medicines down the toilet.

GOT
October 8, 2004, 06:33 PM
Its already been all over the news about Russian giving material support to the Iraqis. There have also been many reports of Iran's own military personnel fighting in Iraq (with different clothing of course). There have been many other reports of Jordanians and Syrians coming over into Iraq to fight against the USA and allies. I wouldn't put it past any of those Muslim/Islamic countries to aid and supply the Iraqis and or get personally involved (by sending their own troops in under plain clothes).

Thinking about this causes me wonder if there are other nations giving support just to see a good fight and or assess the USA (and all those involved) for future confrontation.

Vern Humphrey
October 8, 2004, 06:41 PM
Quote:
-------------------------------------
Its already been all over the news about Russian giving material support to the Iraqis. There have also been many reports of Iran's own military personnel fighting in Iraq (with different clothing of course). There have been many other reports of Jordanians and Syrians coming over into Iraq to fight against the USA and allies. I wouldn't put it past any of those Muslim/Islamic countries to aid and supply the Iraqis and or get personally involved (by sending their own troops in under plain clothes).
--------------------------------------

Which tells us two things:

1. The enemy believe that we will never be able to muster the political will to go into Iran, Syria and so on (and hence we will lose the War on Terror), and

2. We damn' well BETTER muster the political will to go into those countries!

Hkmp5sd
October 8, 2004, 06:47 PM
Iran, Syria, Russia, China and North Korea are the primary post-Saddam sources. There is proof that Russia and China were both still sending major weapons systems into Iraq while the US was in the process of invading the country. France was shipping weapons up to the commencement of hostilities. All were participating in the UN "Oil for Weapons" program.

Standing Wolf
October 8, 2004, 06:57 PM
If we had simply obliterated Baghdad at the outset, then accepted unconditional surrenders from Iraq and the rest of the Islamic terrorist states, we wouldn't have to worry about any of this ugliness.

When was the last time you heard of military trouble from Germany or Japan?

Land wars in Asia have a nasty way of turning hideous.

Vern Humphrey
October 8, 2004, 06:59 PM
We'll never get unconditional surrender from terrorists. The best we can hope for is to overturn regimes that support terrorists and replace them with regimes friendly to us.

reagansquad
October 8, 2004, 07:50 PM
Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, quite a few partisan groups like Al Kaida, Islamic Jihad, etc. Not to mention that the vast majority of the resistance fighters are just regular Iraqi's who are sick of getting bombed by Americans and just want us gone.

Tag
October 8, 2004, 08:21 PM
If we had simply obliterated Baghdad at the outset, then accepted unconditional surrenders from Iraq and the rest of the Islamic terrorist states, we wouldn't have to worry about any of this ugliness.

I have to agree with wolf on this point. However, we should remember that terrorism is just a tactic and we may as well, as Griffen put it, be fighting a war on sin...

I think more work has to be done to understand the enemy if the destruction of the arab world is not an option.

Standing Wolf
October 8, 2004, 10:10 PM
I think more work has to be done to understand the enemy if the destruction of the arab world is not an option.

It's always a good idea to understand one's enemy. I certainly don't advocate the destruction of the Arab world: merely the destruction of every follower of Islam who feels entitled to wage war against civilization.

What Muslims do in their portion of the world is entirely their concern, barbaric though I personally consider much of what passes for Islamic culture, starting with "converting" people by the sword. What they do in our portion of the world is very much our concern—or ought to be, at least.

I'm sure defeating the Islamic terrorist states wouldn't put a complete end to Islamic terrorist savagry; I'm very sure, however, the nations that have aided and abetted the savages could be forcibly persuaded to stop. They've been offered every reasonable opportunity and incentive. As of September 12, 2001, they should have been forcibly stopped once and for all.

GOT
October 8, 2004, 11:24 PM
One of the problems with "their world" and "our world" is that their world has become so hostile that thousands of them are migrating to our world. I mean the same thing happened a few hundreds of years ago, the Muslim/Islamic people moved north into Europe which resulted in major conflict and several wars.

So, it all come down to the rights of the ancestors, which takes us all the way back to Abraham. The Islamic people think that all the land around Israel is rightfully theirs (based upon scripture) and the Israelies think all that land rightfully belongs to them (based upon scriptures). There's no winning it in todays PC mentality.

Now since there is serious hostilities in most if not all Islamic countries (as a direct result of dictatorial, tyrannical rulers) then there has been some major migration all over the place (which transportation technologies has made it possible for the entire world to become involved... all at once... yippy for us!).

I'm thinking that this is going to be a never-ending bout. It may end up something like the 100 years war that Spain had with the Arabs. And the only way Spain was able to conquer them was to declare a national religion and then wipe out everything else that wasn't.... :uhoh:

The_Antibubba
October 10, 2004, 12:09 AM
They are buying them here in America, using the massive gun show loophole. I thought that was common knowledge.

GOT
October 10, 2004, 12:18 AM
They are buying them here in America, using the massive gun show loophole. I thought that was common knowledge.

Yeah, LOL...
...and now since the AWB expired they can get themselves machine guns at gun shows too!

Zeke Menuar
October 10, 2004, 03:37 AM
The people you buy your gasoline from, funnel money to the terrorists via Saudi Arabia, their allies and their oil companies. Pretty neat isn't it.

ZM

bnormal2
October 10, 2004, 07:23 AM
Talked to a guy who was an armorer over there. Said that Glocks are all over bagdad and that Russian and chinese ak's are the most prevalent. So you know where they come from....

Sarah Hughes
October 10, 2004, 01:27 PM
I think it is interesting to compare the reactions towards different phenomena by the same people: Abu Graib the world was 'disgusted' about what some people did to the Iraqi prisoners yet nobody says a thing about the never ending traffiking of guns and ammunitions to these so-called 'rebels'.

British and American civilians and servicemen are being killed and butchered by these people. Instead of being worked up by some idiotic pictures how about we stop these people killing our citizens. The point is that Iraq is a very, very backward country and needs someone like President Bush to free them from a President whom not only did they initially support but also some were prepared to die for.

Guns are bad, but when people like Saddam and his countrymen have guns and ammo at their disposal it is up to us to make the world safer so that 9/11 can never, ever, happen again.

Vern Humphrey
October 10, 2004, 03:48 PM
Quote:
------------------------------
I'm thinking that this is going to be a never-ending bout. It may end up something like the 100 years war that Spain had with the Arabs. And the only way Spain was able to conquer them was to declare a national religion and then wipe out everything else that wasn't....
-------------------------------

The war between Muslims and Christians in Spain lasted 781 years -- from Tariq's capture of Gibraltar (which is named after him -- Gebil al-Tariq, meaning "Tariq's Hill"), to the capture of the last Muslim stronghold, Granada, by Ferdinan and Isabella in 1492.

Spain had been Christian for hundreds of years -- the first Spanish converts were supposedly made by the Apostle James in the mid-First Century, more than six hundred and fifty years before the Muslim invasion.

Tag
October 10, 2004, 04:14 PM
Guns are bad

:scrutiny:

Guns are only tools, it's how they are used.

horge
October 10, 2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by GOT
I'm thinking that this is going to be a never-ending bout. It may end up something like the 100 years war that Spain had with the Arabs. And the only way Spain was able to conquer them was to declare a national religion and then wipe out everything else that wasn't....


A comparatively small force of Muslims under Tariq son of Zayyib invaded and subjugated old Hispania, and the disunited Iberians had to grind out some unity in order to resist, and then kick the invaders out --from Don Pelayo's redoubt in Asturias all the way centuries later to Los Catolicos' regnal reconquest of Granada (around the time their vassal Cristobal Colon was busy 'discovering America'). Thanks bringing it up, Vern!

If anything,
the Reconquista is a mirror of what Iraqis could do, given time.
Technology shortens the lengths they have to go to.

One can destroy any chance of the terrorist hatemongers obtaining all three key elements that sustained the Spanish Reconquista.

1. The elimination of religious/ideological character to the insurrection.
The warzone apparition at Compostela interpeted as the spirit of St. James (aka Sancte Jago, now rendered Santiago) turned the Spanish resistance into a magnet for foreign aid from the religious, and emboldened the resisters themselves. The present day Iraqi resistance around holy sites is amply dangerous: any miracle or apparition in their favor would fill rebel coffers already fed by foreign aid, and swell their already growing ranks. Charismatic religious leaders need to be disgraced quickly or else coopted. The US knows all about adding religious/ideological character to a military operation: the 'Coalition' itself claims the champion's mantle on anti-terrorism and democratic freedoms.


2. Securing the borders. The Spanish reconquest was fueled in no small part by European money and material pouring in from the north, first to Asturias, later to the lords of Catalunya, until the county of Leon whelped the juggernaut military might of the Kingdom of Castilla, and Spaniards themselves could provide all the money and materel needed. Iraq today has extremely porous borders, and modern financial transactions respect no border at all.


3. Fighting time. The collapse of Muslim Spain was truly a matter of time. The powerbase Caliphate far away had waned, leaving the Muslim colonies on their own. Today, t,echnology and communications, plus a 4-year US political cycle, make for an even shorter shelf-life on long-distance, effective support for US forces, and from that POV they may need a solid exfil date in much less than 2 years. However, technology also extends the reach of coopting, calming propaganda and truth, and if the US stays on the High Road, right truly is might ---and the sort of goodwill and tolerance it breeds boast a shelf-life is measured in centuries.

------------------

Ultimately, I think Macchiavelli had a rock-solid point:
A garrison is easily outperformed by a trade mission, if applied in time.

Perhaps one could quietly get a respected third party investor to come in and get some sense of normalcy and trade going. Perhaps the French, but better still the Jordanians and Iranians, can invest in selected border towns and cities (close to the investor's border, naturally). There are peaceful, respected local Iraqis who can be tied up with the investors. These businesses must in turn be supported by foreign demand. Resultant local wealth may eliminate the impoverished rural manpower that serves rebellions in the interior. This also can serve to civilize and secure the very transit points of intruders and contraband from without.

Right now the US really is the Great Satan in the eyes of too many Iraqis. Third parties possessing a track-record working relationship wth Iraqis may have to be brought in. Devoid of any damning connection with the US, they may be able to do the calming, normalizing work as truly neutral, respected non-combatants.

The al-Qayyida and various Harrakat already know this.
Most observers think the beheadings of private persons is merely to intimidate the Coalition. Not so. The longer-term effect is to prevent Macchiavelli's admonitions from timely aplication. Who would invest in central Iraq now? The borders towns, though, may be easier to secure by any border investors themselves.

Fire and steel aside...
Your true 'weapon' is the hope of peace, prosperity and human dignity.
The enemy's 'weapons' are Fear and Hate.

None of these 'weapons' need be sneaked in through the porous Iraqi border.
They can already be found in the hearts and minds of every Iraqi,
and yours is a contest of not only courage and cunning,
but of clarity as well.



jm2p
horge

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