[2dogs]

http://rebel.onestop.net/goodcops.htm

To All Good Cops...



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I was raised in a conservative environment. As a child, I wasn't allowed to refer to police officers as "cops" because my elders thought the term was disrespectful. Although nobody liked getting speeding tickets, it was still almost universally accepted that the police were the "good guys" out there protecting us all from evil criminals.

It was easy to see police that way in yesteryear. They were ordinary folks in simple blue uniforms. They walked among us, smiled, and talked to us as neighbors. The .38 revolvers they wore were mostly a formality, and weren't very intimidating to people who typically owned much bigger guns themselves.
If you were basically a good person, not inclined to murder or steal or rape, you could expect to go through life without a police officer ever pointing his gun or even raising his voice at you. Even if you were arrested for some minor infraction, you could expect the police officer to deal with you politely and with minimum force. (At least if you were a non-trash, white person. Mileage probably varied for minorities in the same era.)

But these days, when the police go about in black body armor, carrying high-capacity autopistols that ordinary citizens can't buy, packing chemical and electrical weaponry, keeping assault rifles close at hand, looking for all the world like occupying forces in hostile territory, it's getting harder to see them in a positive light. When they can't talk to people without first putting them in shackles, when they consider screaming at non-aggressive suspects to get face-down onto the ground while holding them at gunpoint to be ordinary procedure, when they break down doors and shotgun terrified children in the back, when they beat up handcuffed kids, when they gun down harmless dogs belonging to innocent families and their departments say they acted properly, it becomes impossible to see the cops as good guys.

I keep hearing that some cops, maybe the majority of them, are "good cops"... As years go by and I look at what has happened to this country, I'm having trouble accepting that.
How can any good person be willing to ruin his fellow citizen's life because that citizen used the "wrong" dried plant matter in his cigarettes? How could a good person who walks around with a high-capacity autopistol on his hip arrest a citizen for carrying an old revolver without feeling like a complete hypocrite? How can a good person harass peaceable citizens over the countless intrusive, freedom-sapping laws without feeling like a total heel?

But I'm told that there are still good cops out there. And I know that even the not-so-good ones have spouses and children and kinfolk who care about them. So, for the theoretical good cops out there, I have something to say:


Please quit the force.
Do it now.
I don't want to have to kill you.
I don't want your families' grief on my conscience.


Some day, sooner or later, as I go about my peaceful activities as a free man, some LEO is going to cross the line. Maybe he'll try to make me to get onto my knees. Maybe he'll kick in my door. Maybe he'll try to pepper-spray or taser me when I don't obey the the commands he screams at me.
I don't do obedience. I don't get on my knees for anyone. I don't tolerate break-ins from anybody. I'd die first... More likely, I'd kill first. Although I try to be a non-aggressive person in everyday life, my capacity for violence is well-developed and always at the ready. I may die, but I won't be alone on my trip to Hell.

Besides, I have nothing to lose. Even if I were willing to surrender quietly when the day comes, I don't trust you. Cops have too often sprayed, stunned, electrocuted, shot, or set attack dogs on citizens who were trying to cooperate.

You see Officer, I know full-well that my life will be over from the moment I find myself subjected to a "felony stop" or "no-knock warrant". I know that, after I kill you, I will be a marked man. That my home, property, and family will be forfeit. I've already come to terms with that. As much as I love my life, it wouldn't be worth living as a slave.
After I kill you, I'll have only one purpose in life: To kill as many jack-booted thugs as I can before I go down myself. I consider it my patriotic duty... As well as a potential outlet for my creativity.

Maybe you're saying that quitting the force is exactly the wrong thing to do. That, by quitting, you'd be leaving the bad cops in complete control of the force with no good cops to balance them out...
It's too late to try to improve the force from within. The Nazi thugs wearing badges and the power-mad bureaucrats who validate their actions with "department policy" have justified the perception among all free men that the LEOs are the enemy. More and more people are beginning to see this fact. More and more people are preparing themselves to kill you the next time you cross the line. And you'll never know where each individual's line is until you cross it and wind up dead.

Let's face it. The police and the Police State you serve are a much greater threat to free people than the freelance thugs you're supposed to be protecting us from. You may have become a cop with a real desire to help people and serve your community, but that isn't what cops do anymore. They simply wield power and strive to keep ordinary people powerless. If you really are a decent human being, quit the force now. Use your police credentials and experience to make a business of teaching people how to defend themselves against the thugs who would victimize them, whether those thugs be freelance or badge-wearing.

Quit now. Tomorrow may be the day you cross my line. And the "department policy" defense won't keep you alive when that happens.

[geekWithA.45]

I'm thinking it might be better to appeal to the many good guys who are cops to remember their oaths to "protect and serve", and to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" than quit.

If they quit, then only the thugs remain, and when only the thugs remain, then only thugs will have guns, and the chances of reform are nil.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not a big fan of the gradual militarization of the police (Gee, thanks, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism, War on Freedom) and this trend has to be stopped in it's tracks, but I think we haven't exhausted the "sub lethal" options yet.

[Oleg Volk]

Please quit the force.
Do it now.
I don't want to have to kill you.
I don't want your families' grief on my conscience.


I'd be more inclined to ask the bad guys to quit or commit suicide. We could use a few good folks in uniforms to keep those organizations from drifting into thuggish ways.

[Baba Louie]

Whoa!

2dogs... I know that you didn't write that, but dude...

That's just not right!

These guys and gals are Americans too. They love that which we've got, they know what we've lost, its not them, they're NOT THE ENEMY!!!!!!

Or maybe I should put it this way... THEY'RE not the ENEMY.

The guys and gals who pass the laws that the boys in blue enforce (selectively at times, thank goodness)... THEY May be the ones to discuss certain scenarios about, but that's why we have the power of the ballot... But the Bullet?

For a Cop (Constable On Patrol?)?

Dude...(author who wrote this article), these men and women actually put bad guys away, keep the streets as safe as allowable and make it so you and I can sleep safe and sound in our comfortable little beds at night instead of patrolling the streets keeping the "hounds at bay".

I understand the sentiment. The militarization of Law Enforcement kinda sux in a way. Mindless obediance to stupid laws... to this I say, I've NEVER met a mindless Police Office. For the most part, they're pretty sharp and I want them on my side. I want to be, no wait, I AM on their side.

Some laws are stupid. Get them changed.

Do not Cop Bash.

Not on The High Road, Never on The High Road. Please.

Adios

[2dogs]

Whoa!

2dogs... I know that you didn't write that, but dude...

No, I didn't write it and certainly do not endorse it in it's totality- but it's interesting that we have come to such a state of affairs that anyone would feel compelled to write it.

For the record I have friends and relatives who are LEO, and I harbor no ill will towards the profession but do, as others here have expressed, lament the militarization of law enforcement which is not good for the attitude of law enforcement towards citizens nor for citizens themselves. Maybe this is an unavoidable consequence of our times.........................:(

[Airwolf]

I believe that there are good cops out there.

Problem is the system no longer has much to do with keeping the peace or justice. Too many departments have become militarized and with that hardware has come the “us against them” mindset.

All you have to do is look at some large urban departments (hell, even some smaller ones with delusions of grandeur). APC’s, scads of full-auto weapons, digital encrypted communications, NV and IR gear. Equipment and tactics that mimic the best that US Military uses.

It scares the :cuss: out of me. The “us-against-the-world” mindset has become epidemic. Cops as a whole are now part of the elite class as are politicians, celebrities, media types and the extremely wealthy. Many times they don’t have to play by the same rules as us “civilians”.

Again, this is not true of all cops but the system IS broken.

Peace Officers have been replaced by Law Enforcement. It’s ultimately not about protecting and serving the community it’s about feeding the monster that has grown up around the criminal “justice” system. The profit motive in supporting armies of lawyers, prisons and revenue generation for the state through fines and seizures has long replaced members of the community who are there to keep the peace and serve the people.

I’m just a law-abiding citizen that is terrified beyond description of ending up on the wrong end of a no-knock or case of mistaken identity felony stop. My parents taught me that cops, without question, were the good guys. Sadly, that is no longer true.

[GregoryTech]

That's over the top and inexcusable. Especially this:

After I kill you, I'll have only one purpose in life: To kill as many jack-booted thugs as I can before I go down myself. I consider it my patriotic duty... As well as a potential outlet for my creativity.

Defending one's rights by any means possible is one thing. Using it as an excuse to go on a serial murder spree is quite another.

[Intune]

If, in a case of mistaken id (not the middle of the night kick your door down type) a LEO orders me to the ground, I'm there! There's pride and then there's stupidity. We can straighten it out later. He's not gonna pepper spray me or use the Taser. The guy that wrote this piece is full of bluster, hot air, caca. I think some of the content may be enough to earn him a visit from his greatest fears. I'm not a fan of the WOD and all that emanates from it but if we want to implement change there is a proper way to go about it. This guy is an accident waiting to happen. His entire tone is deplorable.

[JMLV]

Here me folks. People like the authur ARE out there. Law abiding for the most part. They simply want to be left alone to live their lives. However if pushed they WILL react as promised in the open letter above. They are self sufficent and resent govt intrusion into their lives. many are vets with the knowledge and skill to do serious damage if they wish to. Yet they are for the most part non violent. they don't/won't start trouble but they will by god finish it! With the current state of law enforcement today the chances of violent confrontation with this type of indivigual are increasing. Its fast becoming an us vs them attitude among the LEO population. And we are the them! Look at the stuf in the papers of late. swat team called out becouse a tax assesotr sees guns in a home up for repossision or the felony stop in Tenn for losing your wallet on the interstate.
Officers like our own Lawdawg are getting fewer and fewer these days. the burocrats are weeding them out. Why? Becouse they actually think befour they act. They use common sence. Municipal courts are now simply used as money makers to fill city and cty coffers with extra cash. Innocence or guilt doesnt matter here just how much they can squese you for.
People like the author are out there and they won't tolorate being mishandled withoiut violence. be forwarned LEO's abuse us at your peral. Most will be sheep and come quietly reguardless of circemnstance and how you treat them. Others will be men of honor and will not stand to be manhandled or abused. Once you cross the line with them all bets will be off. JMHO

[Don Gwinn]

That's just not true. "That's not what cops do anymore?" I'll tell you this: you've probably heard me discuss the rampant corruption and stupidity in my local police force. But one night when my old rattletrap Bronco broke down in the middle of the winter, I was glad one Officer Coleman was there stop, call my house, and wait with me until my parents came to get me. He never attempted to boss me around, he was not impolite, and he didn't go fishing in the vehicle or express any desire to do so. At that time I was a bald kid dressed in black from head to toe and I was about twice his size, but he never treated me like anything but a kid who needed a hand.

I find it hard to believe that you really don't know that a lot of cops still do a lot of things we need done. I like the fact that drunk drivers are being arrested. I like the fact that robbers, rapists and murderers are hunted down and brought to trial. I hate a lot of what the police force does, but frankly, I'm in the minority, which complicates things. When you're in the minority, the practical truth is that you will either accept the majority's will, force a confrontation in the courts, or resort to force. I'm not ready to resort to force and I'm really not ready to warn the local police department that I'm going to assassinate them. :rolleyes:

[AmericanFreeBird]

This is just plain rude. Damn! Just plain rude.

I hate the attitude I get from some COPS and I hate the "priveleged class" they have become but this article is way over the top and into dangerously rude.

:banghead:

[Carlos Cabeza]

That's some rough language, considering most WILL help or assist without discrimination. Last week I was in a bit of a hurry on the freeway and was honking and riding this "slow" car's bum when I realized it was OKC's finest............:eek: He pulled me over (like I had expected him to do) and proceeded to chew me out for many infractions too numerous to mention. After he took my I.D. and returned to my truck he said "Have a nice day" and only had given me a warning !!!! EVERY TIME I GOT THE BILLY CLUB TO THE HEAD IT WAS MY OWN ATTITUDE PROBLEM ! When you are respectful and learn to humble yourself a bit, you get treated with respect. At least in Oklahoma anyway................:rolleyes:

[Joe Demko]

Been around too many cops to indulge in nostalgia about them. Police brutality used to be a matter of course. Lots of stuff that people get formally arrested for now used to be handled with a beating. Which do you prefer, getting your day in court or having the cop administer summary nightstick justice to you at his discretion? They do some stuff that needs done, they do a bunch more that doesn't; in any case I like to see them constrained by rule of law and by a vigilant press. The original author of the opening post, BTW, seems like a real blowhard.

[NewShooter78]

Well that was one heck of a rant. Although there are many "bad" cops out there, I still like to believe that most are in it to do some good for their community. I do, however, hope I'm not the victim of a no knock entry because I fear I'll react the way I should to an intruder in my house and then be in the middle of a really bad situation.

For the most part I feel that most police agencies are hampered by bad legislation just like us gun owners. I don't believe in militarization of police, or extreme brutality. I also have never walked in a cop's shoes so I don't know how it is to deal with extremely stressful situations in which some loose their cool. I do not condem the entire institution for the actions of a few, however.

[Ian]

Can anyone say "Carl Drega?"

[TheeBadOne]

The author needs professional help as soon as possible.

[dog3]

I don't buy it. Any of it. Yeah, there are a lot
of us who are pretty much law abiding. Meaning that we are guilty of nothing that was a crime
when we were growing up. Lots more stuff
is criminalised now. Mostly stupid stuff. Like
gun laws.

Most of us just want to be left alone to go
about our day.
Lot's of us may like to think that we'd stand
up to injustice, but when exactly has this
ever happened?

When has a rightous person ever stood
up to the establishment when their lives were
in jeopardy? When?

The truly rightous seem to lay down with the
rest and work it out later.

[Skunkabilly]

:rolleyes:

It's easy to blame the police as they're the pointy end of the stick in the justice system.

IMO I'm much more worried about the corrupt lawmakers and judges. At least you need a background investigation and for the most part, some level of decency to be sworn in as a police officer--Southern California has some pretty tough standards.

[Frohickey]

If, in a case of mistaken id (not the middle of the night kick your door down type) a LEO orders me to the ground, I'm there! There's pride and then there's stupidity. We can straighten it out later. He's not gonna pepper spray me or use the Taser.

I'm sure you have read the story about a guy that willingly went to the floor of his house, followed the orders of the cop, and the cop managed to shoot him in the back as the cop was going down to put the cuffs on.

[Zundfolge]

I'd like to thank the author of that piece for fully justifying every "thug" cop's bad attitude and every power hungry politician's plans for the destruction of our liberty. :rolleyes:

[JMLV]

thats LEO as well as citizens (Can't somebody remind them that they are civilians too please some seem to have forgotton that part) there is also a lot of us vs them attidude especially among the younger officers.

[rebbryan]

the author seems to be somewhat paranoid and if he was a law abiding citizen he'd have nothing to worry about. i've never had any encounter w/ the police other than a traffic ticket. and just so everyone doesn't think everyone w/ a Confederate flag is tryin to kill the police or is like this, they aren't. i'm live in the south and plan on being a LEO.

>>but it's interesting that we have come to such a state of affairs that anyone would feel compelled to write it. <<

some people had the audacity to spit on soldiers returning from vietnam, you can't get rid of these types

[GregoryTech]

the author seems to be somewhat paranoid and if he was a law abiding citizen he'd have nothing to worry about

[mini vent]
I have a lot of issues with the article, but (apologies to rebbryan) I cringe when I hear/read these words. It's The old "if you have nothing to hide" argument for supporting further intrusions into our rights as American Citizens. Let the police violate your home without a warrent, you have nothing to hide. Let them search your car, you have nothing to hide. Register your guns, you have nothing to hide... and so on, and so on...
[/mini vent]

[rebbryan]

if there was really nothing to hide then a search would just be an inconvenience. i do get your point and i wouldn't let the police search my vehicle and i tell everyone to not let them search anything b/c there are so many stupid laws. i carry a 4 inch folder w/ me all the time b/c i'm a year away from being able to carry a handgun but i still want some protection, but i could be arrested on weapons charges for the knife. i don't agree with all laws, and that's what descretion's for. the guy does sound nutso :banghead: though

[WYO]

It's really special to hear about a self described "peaceful citizen," who laments the militarization of police, then threatens good cops by telling them that they need to quit now because he is going to kill them if a cop, bad or GOOD, illegally or LEGALLY, unreasonably or REASONABLY, does something that he does not like, because he does not care what the law and the facts and circumstances are, he just isn't going to kneel down for anybody. Not only does that sound a bit on the inconsistent side to me, but it also does nothing to dispel an "us versus them" mentality. To the contrary, it helps to create it, because the author tells cops that he will go on a psycho-killer rampage if he is treated in a manner that he considers to be rude! Stuff like this becomes a part of police knowledge, training and experience, which goes to the reasonableness of their actions when they decide, for example, to pull a felony stop rather than a non-felony stop. Peaceful citizens such as the author do no more good for the "real" peaceful citizens than bad cops do for good cops.

I also think that the author waxes a little too nostalgic over the "good old days," as noted by Golgo-13. I also recall that there was a Constitutional amendment, and a war over alcohol and guns in the 30's. Police used to hose down the Bonnie and Clydes of the world without as much as a warning. Most rules under which the cops play these days weren't even heard of until the mid to late 60's.

[Intune]

"I'm sure you have read the story about a guy that willingly went to the floor of his house, followed the orders of the cop, and the cop managed to shoot him in the back as the cop was going down to put the cuffs on."

And the option is... "You'll never take me alive copper!!?" Hell, what is this guy waiting for? Sounds like he wants to just march down to the station and git him some! The only thing holding him back is air and fear...
:rolleyes:

[braindead0]

If the police ever needed to execute a no-knock search on my house, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

There have been far to many home invasion robberies hereabouts, with people in what appear to be police uniforms..driving what appear to be police vehicles..

As far as why fear a warrant if you've got nothing to hide? Well, I don't want my house destroyed in the process. It happens all the time (particularly in drug raids). Would I ever get restitution? I doubt it.

I already know my precise response, it would be the exact same response I would give to anyone breaking into my house. I would do my best to inform the supposed officers that until my wife confirms their identity (easy phone call) they are not to proceed up the stairs. If they chose to do so, I will have no choice but to defend myself.

I doubt they would wait, yet I see no reason not to. Even if it was a drug warrant and my wife was frantically eating up all the drugs or trying to flush them..wouldn't it be obvious? What it the usual procedure for this?

I have no reason to fear a legitimate no-knock warrant, as I abide by the law. So I can further presume anybody claiming to be law-enforcement breaking into my house is not there legitimately.

This is just a part of ou standard preparedness plan.

I do agree, however, that this persons rant goes a bit far in the 'kill as many as you can' direction.

[DeltaElite]

While it's good that Mental Institutions have internet access, this can be the result when a paranoid schizophrenic gets to make a webpage. :neener:


This kind of literary tripe is why there are few cops on this forum and other gun forums.
I have a great time here, but this kind of garbage makes me wonder why I even come here, since there seem to be alot of his followers hanging around here.

I do wish some fine citizen like the guy who wrote this would come to my face and try to kill me, he would be in for a surprise.
Of course, he would bomb a federal building or something equally brave instead of actually facing down a man who would be more than happy to go toe to toe with him.

While I do see some validity to some of his points, he needs to take his meds and have the staff limit his internet access to the Disney website. :neener:

[DeltaElite]

On an additional note........

I wonder if this puke author has ever pulled a kid from a pool and done mouth to mouth on him.
Has he ever held someones hand as they died trapped in the mangled mass of metal that was their car.
Has he ever had to tell a family that their child would not be coming home ever again.
Has he ever seen a family of four murdered with head shots from a 30-30.

Of course he hasn't, but he threatens my life. :rolleyes:

Forgive me for my rantings, but I am weary of this psycho garbage.

[CaesarI]

We had a case in Denver a little while ago, less than a year IIRC.

Police bust in, wrong house. Guy's sitting at his easy chair cleaning his gun, IIRC the slide wasn't on the weapon. Cops shoot him.

So what happens? He sues Denver PD for shooting him wrongly. Denver PD counter-sues him. And the Denver PD, thinks they're being nice by offering to drop their suit if he drops his!! Like he's done anything wrong!

Never saw how it all turned out, and there are a lot of really, really good officers in the Denver PD, I'm friends with one I've met, and another I met at TFL. But that doesn't mean that this kind of stuff is OK.

Peace officers are the barrier between the bad laws and the citizens who are the victims of those laws. Just like any other form of civil disobedience, officer of the law have a duty to disobey unjust, unconstitutional orders.

Further I'm in total support of the opinions expressed by braindead0. Another real case I ended up reading about involved a guy's house being busted into by people pretending to be police officers, IIRC they were with the Aryan Nations, or some such nonsense. They knew he had guns and they wanted'em. So they took him and his family and tossed the bodies in a lake. Yeah... it happens, REAL scary. That's for anyone who thinks the safest approach is to lie on the ground and get handcuffed.

-Morgan

[braindead0]

Thankfully, most (hopefully all) of us have no reason to be the subject of a no-knock warrant. But, mistakes happen.. I'd love to know how many warrants of this type have been carried out on the wrong house.. I remember hearing about one on TFL. Of course, when the only survivers are the law enforcement.. they get to write the history books.

I'm in no way anti-cop, I've had my share of ticket and I'm always very respectful. I've yet to run into a 'bad cop' personally, and I know quite a few (one I've known since high school).

There is a line though.

[TheeBadOne]

I wonder if the author is a member of a "Militia Group" and doesn't like paying taxes, doesn't like gov....etc etc etc :confused:

[Ed Brunner]

I know that you and a lot of other LEO's have done things like you mentioned and that most people haven't. I thank you for that.
I don't identify with the author, but I understand where he is coming from. It is a question of whom can you really trust. In an ideal world, we would be able to trust everyone. In the realworld we have to be more selective.
I have worried for a long time about the militarization of police forces and why it is considered necessary. Police exist in one context, military in another and the idea that the small village of Podunk Crossing has it's own SWAT team is a sign to some that police wants to be feared rather than respected.
Most people do not see themselves as criminals and most people aren't. However, as more actions are becoming criminalized, there is a trend towards the time that everything will be against some law.
If there is an us versus them game out there it is because in this country the goal seems to be that the government wants to control all aspects of our lives and to criminalize those aspects not government approved.

[DeltaElite]

Thanks Ed. I am calmer now and had a nice nap. :D


The rest of that site is as well thought out and informative as that article. :rolleyes:

While there are societal problems that need to be addressed, threatening to kill people is not the answer that a rational person would choose.
Of course, that site is not one for rational people.

Anyway, I am going back into my hole now.

[12-34hom]

I question why this "article"was even posted.

What purpose does it serve. = none.

DeltaElite echos my feelings.

Moderators - where were you?

So much for "The High Road".

12-34hom.

[Intune]

One’s door being battered down at 0 dark 30 and a felony traffic stop are two VERY different entities. This, um, gentleman makes no such distinction. "Some day, sooner or later, as I go about my peaceful activities as a free man, some LEO is going to cross the line." He apparently has an axe to grind not realizing that the top of his pinhead may be the best place to start. With individuals like this out there displaying such vehemence, is it any wonder that an officer may have his hand on the pistol butt when he comes up to our car window? Where would yours be in the same situation? Maybe even unholstered if you got a bad vibe from this particular stop? Mine would be if I thought the situation warranted it. I can’t apologize for this guy to the LEOs on this forum, this is no excuse for his ilk. All I can say is that if I am in the AO when this guy goes through with his vendetta, he might not get his wish of having an officer put him down.

[clem]

Well, now I know where I stand with "this person".

So, ..........you can guess what I'll do...............if we ever meet.


"Treat everyone you meet like a million bucks. But allways have a plan to kill them."

Special Agent. Hall, F.B.I.

[DeltaElite]

I do Clem, trust me I do. :D

[Intune]

This one really has me steamed and I have had some pretty fiery verbal discussions with LEOs on forums. Let’s try this scenario on for size. How would any of you respond if you had read his post, done a little research, tracked him down and found out that he had an outstanding warrant on him for a murder in NV? Can you honestly tell me that you and your partner would go knock on his door at 1:00 in the afternoon and ask him to dance with you down to the station? Or would you and ten of your buddies strap on the Kevlar, break out the MP5s, 12ga’s, rams and go visit him about 4 am? For your safety AND HIS, believe it or not. Now let’s say that his address is 147 Main but it gets screwed up into 141 Main. What would you do when you charged up the stairs and your Surefire illuminated the guy sworn to go out takin’ some cops with him, reaching into his nightstand drawer despite your screams to freeze? What would you do as his hand came out of the drawer towards you…





Holding his pair of bifocals and his hearing aide? Did you shoot grandpa? I might have. No, honestly, as soon as he swung towards me, I probably would have. Yes, it was someone’s major screw up and no, I did not go in there with the intent to shoot grandpa.

My only beef (well, the major one) is that this screw up is more likely to happen because our drug war makes for a whole bunch of entries daily, nationwide. Instead of just a few daily to apprehend violent criminals. But it is NOT the job of the officer on the street to make policy or to change laws! Until WE get the laws changed we cannot blame THEM.
End of rant. I hope that I am making sense.

[Ed Brunner]

I think you have identified part of the problem and while it would be "wrong" for one of these officers to shoot grandpa, you are right to expect it to happen at least some of the time.
Whose "fault" is it?

[Frohickey]

I think you have identified part of the problem and while it would be "wrong" for one of these officers to shoot grandpa, you are right to expect it to happen at least some of the time.
Whose "fault" is it?

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

There goes that 'pesky' Bill of Rights and US Constitution again, getting in the way of government and the War on Drugs! If you are innocent, you have nothing to worry about... unless you happen to be the 'victim' of a no-knock raid where the entry team has been briefed that the perpetrator is a violent felon, but they got the address wrong! :fire:

[Zander]

If there is an us versus them game out there it is because in this country the goal seems to be that the government wants to control all aspects of our lives and to criminalize those aspects not government approved.An excellent summation for the entire thread.

In point of fact, the state of civilian law-enforcement these days is quite disturbing. The inherent distinction between malum in se v. malum prohibitum is being eroded at an alarming rate.

No matter the objections given by those in this thread, we are faced with a clear trend:

Any citizen is subject to the sort of brutal incursion that current policies not only accept but encourage.

Law-enforcement these days is, in large measure, out of control. The main reason this is so is that LEOs are increasingly willing to force the citizens they are sworn to protect to comply...no matter the Constitutionality of a given "law"...under penalty of forfeiture seizure, illegal retention, injury or death.

If you're a sworn officer of any type, spend some time with the history of the Nuremberg Trials...where the specious defense, "I was just following orders.", was dismissed with prejudice.

[KY Moose]

After I kill you, I'll have only one purpose in life: To kill as many jack-booted thugs as I can before I go down myself. I consider it my patriotic duty... As well as a potential outlet for my creativity.

Sounds like something written by one of those stupid extremist, soverign nation, militia nut case types. :barf:

[TheeBadOne]

KY, exactly. The author feels he does not answer to nor respect any authority other than his own. If he agrees with a law or action, it's solid. If he doesn't, it's irrelevant and in his way (and evil). With this mind set he can rationalize his actions. Sociopathic tendencies on public display here.

[Hal]

"Treat everyone you meet like a million bucks. But allways have a plan to kill them." :fire:

So the other side of the argument should be OK too huh?

"Treat every cop like a million bucks. But always have a plan to kill them."

I'm sorry. I really don't want to buy into that kind of attitude and live in a society where I fear the police more than the criminals they're supposed to protect me from.

If that's the way you want it though, please don't be surprised if I respond in kind.

[Baba Louie]

Ya know, I hate threads like this one and the mindset of 2dogs original posting author (not you 2dogs).

I've got three cops (2 retired) cops in the family. I've associated with 14 or 15 others here in LV (Cub Scout Dads and one Mom, neighbors, ex-wifes friends hubbys, clients) and NOT ONE, NOT ONE ever had the mindset to "Take your civil liberties away! NOT ONE. (I hate shouting)

If you were/are a bad boy, they would delight in putting you down or away in a heartbeat, showing you the error of your ways, however. My cousin (MO State Trooper) is the only one I personally know who had to use lethal force and he still does not like to talk about it.

Every one of them started off with the mindset "to help other people who needed it". That quickly changed to "Putting Bad guys away".

Period.

End of story.

I'm sure there are bad cops (I read Serpico) and I'm sure there are the Barney Fifes of the world wearing a badge (probably get more than one bullet tho')... its just that in my 47 years walking and breathing, I've yet to meet any of those stereotypes.

Maybe I've been extremely lucky, but I don't think that's it.

The academy, the psychological screening, years on the street, dealing with the scum that they have to deal with, seeing the things they have to see, doing what they do, daily... it ain't for everybody... warriors hamstrung by the constitution and other bizarre rulings that no other police force in the world have to contend with.

I hate reading about the tragic mistakes/events that some people seem to delight in, point their fingers and say, "See? See how they ABUSE their power?" Maybe I'm too close to the source, but I tend to think, "Jeez, poor bastid, He's in for a tough row to hoe now". (unless they shoot themselves while TWIRLING A GUN)

I'd probably feel differently if my home was invaded in the middle of the night by Ninja clad cops on accident. But I don't dwell on that or the end of the world either. I'd rather spend my time worrying about paying the bills, taking care of the kids homework assignments, working with the dogs... living my life.

Politicians and their bureaucratic ilk are another thing. All I can do there is vote, pray, write letters and hope for the best.

As my dear old daddy used to say, "Ride with the law Baba Louie, Not agin it."

But that's just me. I apologize for the rant to any who take offense... you deal with it.

Adios

[braindead0]

12-34hom: I question why this "article"was even posted.

It's a valid point of discussion. I think that we are still on "the high road" here. Just because a viewpoint is considered 'extreme' by most (if not all) of the people here, doesn't mean it should be censored.

Stereotyping this guy as a 'whacko, militia, non-tax paying..blah blah' does nothing to further the discussion of what he wrote.

When I lived in California, I ran with a pretty rough crowd (Monks, Hells Angels and others). Those 'crazy bikers' were, and still are some of the finest men and women I know. All you hear about in the news is the bad things that a few would do, but you rarely if ever hear about the good things (charity benefits, helping each other out in tough times..etc).

Perhaps he's just had enough?

[TallPine]

Don't judge all "civilians" by the writer of the letter in the first post. In any group, there are bound to be a "few bad apples".

:D

[DeltaElite]

The article is by a fringe element that reflect the views of a very few members of society. Even though some of them post here. ;)

This thread is becoming a waste of bandwidth and certainly is not worth of "The High Road".

[Ed Brunner]

I agree that most Cops are good guys.
I see the problem we are discussing being the fault of poor leadership. Good cops are being unnecessarily put in shooting situations and you can't always blame the cop who pulls the trigger.
Any police officer who thinks about it realizes that he is in danger and tries to minimize his exposure. He also knows that in a shooting situation he prefers that the other guy be the shootee . So when grandpa gets shot reaching for his hearing aid, someone apparently reacted too fast. but is alive at the end of the day.

Who is at fault?

[Ian]

I noticed this article on KeepAndBearArms.com today (http://www.thetowntalk.com/html/5A301D5E-F128-42BE-9456-5D0868B9703F.shtml), and it seems pretty relevant to the discussion at hand...

Residents say Molette was pushed too far
Eugene Sutherland / Staff Reporter
Posted on February 22, 2003

Eugene Sutherland

Outside the Branch Street home of Anthony Molette's grandmother, a large group of cars filled the street Friday morning.

Family members and friends were visiting the modest house to offer their condolences and expressions of support.

When asked to discuss their feelings on the surrealistic scene of violence and bloodshed that occurred a day earlier, family members declined comment.

Molette was killed during a three-hour gun battle Thursday with Alexandria police. Two officers also died in the battle and three others were wounded.

Three buildings down from Molette's grandmother's house, at Super Styles Barber Shop, opinions were offered as quickly as bullets had been sprayed Thursday on Wise Street.

Barber Jamail Franklin said that Molette was a regular at the shop.

"He was a quiet person," Franklin said. "He didn't bother nobody unless they bothered him first. I won't deny that he had a long record, but a lot of that was due to harassment from the police. I think it just built up inside of him."

Like others gathered at the shop, Franklin appeared much calmer than the Sonia Quarters residents who verbally vented their frustrations at police a day earlier.

But, for the most part, the group was no less critical of the Alexandria Police Department and what they perceive as years of unfair treatment of neighborhood residents by both white and black officers.

Franklin and another man went as far as to name names.

"You've got (APD narcotics head) Newman Bobb, who's been doing wrong for a long time," Franklin said. "But if you look back, the two before him did the same things. This has been going on for a long time."

Franklin said that he is always mindful of steering clear of Bobb, though he is not involved in illegal activity. Franklin and nearby residents Troy Davis and Charles Williams said "the word on the street" is that under Bobb's direction, police officers have provided some residents with drugs, only to arrest them later and keep the drugs and profits for personal use.

"What they're doing right now is causing chaos between white folks and black folks," Williams said. "This is not over. I'm 44. Black men used to be scared (of harassment), but we ain't scared no more. We're sick of all that."

The men said they are concerned over what they perceive as the APD's inability to handle the situation without outside help.

"Anytime one man can hold the police off for that long and you need all these other officers to come in, something's wrong," Franklin said. "I know they're training them. They must not be training right."

Davis said he would occasionally bump into Molette in the neighborhood.

"I never had any problem with him," Davis said. "He'd say 'What's up Troy?' and we might kick it or hang out for a little while. Most of the time, you'd just see him walking around, real quiet."

The 50-year-old Davis cited two alleged incidents in which he said an APD officer unjustly dealt with him.

"I remember on Mother's Day, (Officer Robert) Distefano pulled up when I was waiting for a store to open," Davis said. "He asked me what I was doing. I told him. He said, 'You are f------ lying.'

"I'm old enough to be his daddy! I reported him to internal affairs, but they never called me back. ... He arrested me on Oct. 30 for 'being drunk."

David Jones, 49, likened his perception of APD harassment of neighborhood residents to an animal that is repeatedly abused.

"Only two things make a person do the kind of thing that boy did," Jones said. "Fear and abuse. Lives were lost, let's step back and look at what happened.

"I own a dog. If you put a dog in a corner enough times, the only thing he'll feel he can do is to come out fighting. He's going to bite. Negotiating should have been an option. I don't think he thought it was."

The biggest point of conversation seemed to be the way in which law enforcement went about pursuing Molette.

"They wanted to serve him with a search warrant but they needed a whole SWAT team to do it?" Franklin asked. "When serving a bench warrant, they might send the sheriff and the city marshal together. That's it. If you send a SWAT team, something's wrong."

Everyone interviewed, including 26-year-old Tavares Wilson, believes that the standoff was not a spur-of-the-moment reaction by Molette.

They believe the event signaled a personal breaking point for Molette that was preceded by years of overzealous harassment.

"It happened so tragically and it took so long, I don't believe it was spur-of-the-moment," Wilson said. "He was a quiet dude. I think it just built up in time. They weren't even sure that it was him who shot at the officer. They suspected that he was."

One man, Solomon Kent Jordan, said that prayer is needed for the families of the lost officers and of Molette.

Jordan, 43, said he has a close friend who is an APD officer and who was personally involved in the standoff. Jordan found he was "traumatized emotionally" over Thursday's events when he visited him Thursday night.

"He prayed for all of the families," Jordan said. "First, he prayed for (Molette) and his family, even though he was trying to kill him on the SWAT team. This touched my heart.

"That's what we all don't realize. We shouldn't pass judgement based on emotion. That's a ploy of the devil. We have to submit ourselves to God. We have to find our answer in the Bible. White, black, we need to sit down and talk."

[DeltaElite]

I am so pleased to see that people believe what the media tells them and they also believe the quotes of the neighbors. :rolleyes:

KeepAndBearArms.com is not a source for unbiased info anymore than CNN is.


The quickest way to make anyone a Saint, is to have them killed by the police.
Suddenly their lifetime of crime is forgotten and they are Saints. :rolleyes:

[braindead0]

The quickest way to make anyone a Saint, is to have them killed by the police.

Works the other way as well... The dirtiest cop in the world is hailed as a hero when he dies in the line of duty...

[DeltaElite]

Good point Braindead0, good point.

[Ian]

DeltaElite - First of all, KABA.com didn't write the article, they merely linked to it. If you're going to question the source, then question the actual source.

Secondly, I think it is worth pointing out that there ARE corrupt, power-hungry cops out there harming people, and there ARE people who get fed up and lash out at the system. I'm not going to support either of those groups, but I think that a rational evaluation of the subject requires a knowledge of those people. I'm not singing the praises of Anthony Molette or Carl Drega or the other people who acted this way, but I'm not going to pretend that they don't exist either. Remember that anyone who lives up to the motto "molon labe" stands a fairly good chance of ending up the subject of an article like this one.

[Intune]

"I won't deny that he had a long record, but a lot of that was due to harassment from the police."

Yeah, ok. How many convictions? Was resisting arrest or assaulting an officer among them, hmm? Could that be why SWAT was sent? Another fine, upstanding member of society being messed with by the police. Un-huh. "Man, all I was doin' was running a little (illegal) bizness on the side and the man wants to come mess with me."

I'm sure there are examples of people with pristine records being messed over. I have already addressed that I believe the WOD is responsible for most of our woes on BOTH sides of the badge. I don't know how many dynamic entries are performed nationwide daily and I could darn sure argue the LAW that makes most them "reasonable" but I believe that the vast majority of LEOs try to do the daunting task that is placed before them in a safe, efficient and professional manner. This guy in the opening post isn't just painting with a broad brush (that he could make into a deadly weapon if surrounded, just ask him) he's throwing the entire bucket through the canvas. Probably in hopes of beaning the LEOs lurking on the other side spying on him.


That I, of all people, am on this thread defending law enforcement is amazing to me, but this guy's tone was threatening to me and I'm not an LEO! They have been given an almost impossible job. Do any of us do ours perfectly 100% of the time? NOT 99.8 or 97% but 100! When I mess up during the course of my job, you guys don't hear about it and nobody dies. They don't have that luxury.

[DeltaElite]

Ian,
KABA.com links to it, so they approve of it.
I question everything they post, just as I do CNN, HCI, Fox, ABC and any other source with a political agenda. Disinformation is an art form in todays media.
People are very easily manipulated by someone they consider to be a reliable source.
Remember, believe nothing you hear or read and only half of what you see. ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, there are bad cops. Unfortunately they do a great deal of harm before they are dealt with, if they are ever dealt with.

Those who lash out can't function within society as the rest of us do, that is why they have so many govt run ins.
We all create our own destinys, some choose to create one of failure and misery. They then blame society and/or govt for their personal failures.
Their lashing out is the final gesture of a pathetic life.
They kill their wife and kids, they kill anyone they feel has wronged them, they are unable to accept that they are the source of their problems, not society.

The Molon Labe issue is different than the articles posted here. The disarming of our society is very different than the people who are angry at their inability to function within society as the rest of us do.

[Sean Smith]

The "essay" that started this whole topic was obviously written from the perspective of a hyper-macho meathead. There are kernals of reality sprinkled in there (e.g. the illegitimacy of no-knock raids, the apparent militarization of American law enforcement), but the guy's outlook is paranoid and disfunctional.

Having said that, there are extremely scary tyrannical tendencies in modern law enforcement. The fact that every municipality under the sun seems inclined to creat a militaristic SWAT team to execute no-knock raids on people in kit that would have made the Stasi drool isn't something to be looked at with equanimity. Unlike the author of that anti-police hit piece, I don't relish the idea of offing "jack booted thugs." But I also know that if somebody knocks down my door at 2am, I am probalby going to try to shoot their *** no matter what they say. And finding out after the fact that they wanted apartment 1231's meth lab, instead of 1232's collection of action movie DVD's, isn't going to make everything OK if SWAT has already reduced me to a slab of Alpine Lace(TM) Lowfat Swiss Cheese.

So I guess my point is, even in stupidity you can find food for thought. :scrutiny:

[Ian]

I don't accept anything in print either, but this article seems legit. It's basically a bunch of neighbors explaining their relationship with the guy in question and with the local police. What makes you suspect a bias?

While I believe that these individuals (Molette et al) must bear sole responsibility for their actions, that doesn't justify whitewashing everyone else involved. For these people, life reached a point where shooting a couple cops and dying was preferable to a continued life. Why? What does drive a person to such an extreme?

From personality and genetics, some people have a greater or lesser tolerance for being abused by authority. When all the little regulations pile up - when the EPA and the ATF and the FDA and the DMVs and all the other alphabet agencies intrude into the lives of the population - it will exceed the tolerances of more and more people. How long will a dog stand to be caged and tormented before it snaps? I don't see these people as pathetic failures, I see them as pitiable victims of an out-of-control government. They are offered no recourse, and lash out at what they can see.

If and when guns are generally outlawed in this country, I think some of us here will fall into the same situation. They will be confounded at every legal turn, and will have to choose between the humiliation of being disarmed (on top of the taxes and endless regulations already levied upon them) or fighting back against the only target available - the unfortunate local cop on the beat who has to enforce the law. Some may vent their wrath against the ATF, but not many, IMO.

[Intune]

Well said Sean. Um, if they do come, about those DVDs. ;)

[braindead0]

What makes you suspect a bias?

I don't doubt it's true, at least mostly. But, they didn't cover the other side of the story at all. Just a little lip service to make it sound like they did.

It doesn't even sound like an attempt was made to get an official statement from the LEO's. Even a "we can't talk about it due to ongoing investigation" is something.

[DeltaElite]

Well my cynicism tells me that all media is biased.
The article sells more papers if they portray the deceased as a good man pushed too far, than if they tell that he was a career criminal who was a waste of DNA.

We had an Aryan Brotherhood member who was assaulting people, intimidating witnesses, selling meth and generally raising heck. When three officers went to take him down, he attempted to draw a gun, one of three he had, and recieved .223 therapy that resulted in his death.
I knew this guy, I had previously arrested this guy, he was a major jerk and career violent criminal.

The media portrayed him as an ex-con who was getting his life back in order and staying out of trouble. They interviewed his friends who made him out to be a Saint. :rolleyes:
I guess meth dealing, threatening people and assaulting people is getting your life back in order to some people. ;)

The media prints what will sell papers, influence their target audience or makes them look good.
Anything that gets hits to your website can make you money, so disinformation is profitable.
Just look at CNN and others.

So, that is why I believe the media is biased and lies in almost every story they print.
Oh, if you choose not to believe what I posted about the guy I mention above, I understand, believe me I understand. :D

[FNHP35]

He doesn't "do obedience"? That's interesting. So, let me get this straight, he expects everyone else to "do obedience" for him. We live in a society with laws. We have a way to change those laws. Killing police officers is not a constructive way to change the laws (and is not a legal way, nor one that is supported by the Constitution, at least when the police officer is acting in good faith and is acting according to the established laws of his jurisdiction). If he chooses to go his little way and end up in some gun fight, all he is doing is putting more fuel into the fire.
I am also amazed that he says he has nothing to loose. He said he had a family. While I don't have a family, I think I'd let my pride walk for them. I would kneel down for a police officer to save my family the wonderful feeling have having their husband/dad shot to death and him being chalked up as a murderer (if indeed he actually killed anyone).
He also mentions that cops have too often sprayed, electrocuted etc people trying to cooperate. While no doubt it does happen, and again, no doubt there are bad cops out there, I think his argument is somewhat self defeating. He is telling the police that he will go down in a volley of gunfire, yet he wants them to do things peacefully when he admits that he won't.
He also seems to be paranoid about no-knock warrants. Personally, this guy is the prime example of a person that would be a good candidate for one (if indeed he ever has one written for him, which, seems rather likely, by his own admission ".....when the day comes......." and because of his drug links). That's what I have to say anyway.


Andrew

[Ed Brunner]

The article that started this thread is whatever it is. Take it, leave it or sift through it, there are people out there who see things that way. If someone is convinced that people are coming to kill him, he probably will not be in a friendly mood.

About the two police officers killed in Alexandria, LA. The first news releases said that Anthony Molette had earlier sprayed a police car with "automatic rifle fire" and that the team was serving an arrest warrant.

About what the neighbors said. Probably biased. That is only one side of the story and I expect there is another side. It is easy to portray the police as the oppressers in all cases. Interspersed with the condemnation of the police were some curious references to his criminal past, bur no mention of Molette shooting at the police car.

[Ian]

DeltaElite - The same source did a number of articles on the story, including several from the police point of view. For example:
http://www.thetowntalk.com/html/4CDA9203-5BBB-4F71-AF37-37B610697C45.shtml
http://www.thetowntalk.com/html/6F991829-2161-49EE-B085-1B2114426029.shtml (this one includes Molette's arrest record, but not conviction record)

FNHP35 - At what point does a society of law become a society of petty despots? I absolutely agree that cop-killing sprees won't do anything about it - but what do you tell the individuals who see no other way out? Carl Drega, for instance, spent 16 years trying to work through courts, to no avail. What do you tell him? To suck it up and let the local authorities do whatever they like?

I don't intend that as a rhetorical question - what DO you tell someone who has found that there are no legal remedies to abusive authority?

[WilderBill]

Wow!
Heated discussion. Good. It needs to be discussed.
My Grandad was a Peace Officer back when there still was such a thing. Today it seems to be all LEO, with the emphessis being on the force part.
Not that it is never needed, just that is has gotten way out of hand on too many occasions to go unnoticed. Sometimes perception is everything.
I certainly appreciate the good things done by LE in my community.
I also have run into officers that I consider worse than the thugs they are suppose to be protecting us from.
There is too much us vs them going on here.
LE needs to take care of it's own problems as well as everyone elses. If you know officer Smith has needlessly harassed somebody, then let him know that "stuff" is gonna stop NOW. Not after that somebody takes a shot at you for what he did.
The problem is that what does happen is that because you know Officer Smith and have worked with him for years, you will just tell yourself he's having a bad day because of some problem with his wife and let it go.
Then you meet the guy that wrote that article after dealing with Smith a few times.
We all tend to generalize. There are good guys both in and out of uniform, just as there are bad guys both in and out of uniform.
The problem comes when you have to guess which you are dealing with, no matter which side of the badge you may be on.
I do agree that a no knock entry is still a forced entry by a group of unknown, armed strangers, no matter who they claim to be or want. It should be dealt with in exactly that way!
If there is no time to knock, show a warrent and try to act in a professional manner, then why would you ecpect anything better in return?
I doubt that there is any real need for more than one out of a hundred "no knocks".

Rant mode off.

[braindead0]

I doubt that there is any real need for more than one out of a hundred "no knocks".

Exactly what I've often wondered. What exactly justifies a complete abridgement of your Constituational rights?

I would think it's justified, say if you have realiable (I mean 99.99999% reliable) information that a violent (convicted, not accused) kidnapper is holed up somewhere with someones child and you have the opportunity to surprise him/her. I think a no-knock in this situation would be justifiable.

[DeltaElite]

Thanks for the links Ian, looks like they did a pretty good job covering what this guy was really like. I was wrong about this paper in this incident.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a paste of Saint Molettes arrest history.
What a little angel. :rolleyes:

Arrest record for Anthony J. Molette, 25:

Sept. 14, 1995: Contempt of court
Oct. 20, 1995: Aggravated battery
March 13, 1996: Unauthorized use more than $1,00; resisting arrest by flight; failure to pay fine
March 17, 1996: Simple battery
July 4, 1996: Anti-drug loitering
Sept. 4, 1996: Drug traffic loitering
Sept. 23, 1996: Illegal carrying of weapons
Nov. 26, 1996: Concealed weapons
Dec. 154, 1996: Criminal damage; flight from an officer; no driver's license; lights and tail lights
Jan. 1, 1997: Possession of Schedule II; flight from an officer; resisting an officer
Jan. 2, 1997: Reckless operation of a vehicle; resisting arrest
Aug. 13, 1997: Attempted second-degree murder
Sept. 27, 1997: Anti-drug loitering
Jan. 11, 1998: Drug traffic loitering
April 20, 1998: Attempted first-degree murder
May 7, 1999: Simple battery
Oct. 11, 2000: Possession of Schedule II; possession of a gun with an obliterated serial number
Feb. 9, 2001: Possession, distribution, and manufacture of Schedule II
March 4, 2001: Simple battery; violation of probation; contempt of court
April 8, 2001: Simple battery
Dec. 30, 2001: Violation of probation; contempt of court
Sept. 23, 2002: Contempt of court
Source: Rapides Parish Court records

[DeltaElite]

I would put the need for no knock warrants at about 10% where I am, but we are in a heavy drug corridor and guns are legal here, so everybody has one.
The reason we use them everytime is because of accusations of racial bias in the use of SWAT prior to making them required on all drug warrants.
You only used SWAT on my client because he was _______.
The threat assessment definitely does not always need SWAT, but due to legal hassles and liability, they are used everytime.
You can thank the lawyers for this policy on SWAT use.

Now if drugs were legalized, maybe 1 in 1000.

[Intune]

AK-47 assault rifles can be bought in Alexandria

Guns can be purchased for less than $500

Andrew Griffin / Staff Reporter

Posted on February 23, 2003

An Alexandria gun dealer said the man who killed two police officers Thursday "had a death wish" and most likely used "the urban weapon of choice" -- an AK-47, a weapon that is popular among criminals and gang members.

Mark Harlan, the owner of Liberty Firearms Sales, said until two years ago he sold fully and semi automatic weapons. However, he had a change of heart as he grew older and no longer sells such powerful weapons. "I'm glad I don't sell (assault weapons) anymore," Harlan said. "The first thing that went through my head, as a gun dealer, is that I hoped it wasn't one of mine."

Harlan said a family member who is an Alexandria police officer told him the weapon used in Thursday's deadly shooting was a semi-automatic assault weapon. Since the shooting, that same family member came to Harlan to "arm himself better." "He's fearful of retaliation," Harlan said. "(Fellow officers) are gearing up."

Harlan said semi- and fully automatic weapons could be devastating because so many rounds are fired each time the trigger is pulled. "You can shoot a semi-automatic gun nearly as much as a fully automatic gun, it's shooting so fast," Harlan said. "I'm just glad I don't sell assault weapons anymore." Harlan said that besides assault weapons, he has sold many different kinds of weapons to the public over the years. When he heard about the shootings, he said he couldn't help but wonder where the shooter got his gun. "I pray it wasn't one of mine that I had sold. I quit selling assault weapons two years ago. They're out there, millions of them," Harlan said. "The first thing I thought of is, you have millions of them sold. There is no telling how many times that gun changed hands before it ended up in that guy's hands."

Harlan stressed that the fact the second amendment to the Constitution guarantees Americans the right to bear arms must also be considered in any discussion about guns. "There is the freedom aspect and the responsibility aspect," he said. "When these assault weapons were more prevalent some years ago, the (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) wasn't doing nearly enough back then. Now I think the background checks are working. "Harlan said he spends less time these days on his gun business and instead focuses on an insurance company he operates. "When you're a dealer, you look at your right to bear arms and the right to distribute (guns), but when you're not a dealer, you change all that. You have two police officers dead and you're thinking changes," he said. Harlan said gun sales skyrocketed following events like the death of a president, the 9/11 terrorist attacks or even the Y2K scare.

"I guarantee you that everybody is going to be calling wanting guns," he said. "No one asks for AK-47s anymore. A lot of people bought them before
Y2K. This sort of thing drives gun sales. I also think this situation is going to cause people to appreciate the police more. "Harlan said it's important that people know how to protect themselves. "I encourage people to buy a gun, learn how to use it and learn to protect yourself," he said. "I've got an assault shotgun. I insure houses in that area.(Having a gun) is like a tourniquet. Usually you never think about it, but when you need one, you need one."

Guns like the AK-47 cost $200 10 years ago. Now dealers sell them for more than $500, he said.

Harlan said he believes more of these type crimes are happening in this country. It's the moral climate of the country, and things like taking the Ten Commandments out of schools. If we all followed the Ten Commandments this sort of thing wouldn't be happening," he said. Still, he said, the reality is that criminals will probably always have access to guns and it is best to be prepared.
"You gotta protect yourself," Harlan said. Firearms dealer Jimmie DeRamus, owner of Silver Dollar Pawn on Lee Street, said he has never sold an automatic rifle in his store. "I have never had a fully automatic AK-47 come in here," DeRamus said. "Most of them were regular, normal, single shot rifles. "After hearing the sound of the gunfire on television, DeRamus said it sounded like an AK-47 with the searer gears filed down to make the weapon an automatic rifle. "It was the short, sudden bursts. ... he must have had a tremendous amount of ammunition. He must have been stockpiling for sometime. The first volley was about 300 rounds," DeRamus said.

DeRamus said the reason for the confrontation is still not clear to him. "I hear that possibly the shooting was in retaliation to APD cracking down on drug trafficking in the neighborhood," he said.
DeRamus said a convicted felon is not supposed to be able to buy or possess a gun. But with the frequent gun shows coming through town, especially
during hunting season, felons can purchase weapons from unscrupulous gun sellers. "With the gun shows, they can go in and at least 50 percent of the dealers are not licensed dealers," DeRamus said. "That is the travesty of the whole situation. The people that are reputable gun dealers in Alexandria follow the guidelines. ... it is kind of like kicking dirt in their face when they let these gun shows in here." "I don't have to sell to anybody," he said. "We're very conscious of the fact that we're putting a weapon in someone's hands." Since the shootings, police and the city's residents have been seeking to purchase guns, he said. "The input I have had from independent police officers is that they felt that
they were undergunned and I have had a large request for riot shotguns, and that's only for police officers," he said. "I placed a large order for pump shotguns and numerous police officers are requesting to get them." DeRamus said maybe it's time for the public to step in and support the police by buying them weaponry.

"We've also been getting some calls from people wanting handguns, or shotguns, but primarily handguns. It's mostly been from business people in
town," he said. DeRamus said the increasing in crime in the city coincided with the opening of Interstate 49 in the mid-1990's. "We've had a tremendous amount of crime come into Alexandria since I-49 came through," he said. "Alexandria is pretty well known as a dropping off spot, people coming from New Orleans and meeting people from Monroe or Shreveport. Easy in, easy out." DeRamus, whose shop is a mere five blocks from the scene of the shooting, said that despite the tragedy, the police did what they had to do. Another gun dealer, Joe Swank, owner of Tioga Pawn on Shreveport Highway in Tioga, said his store does not carry AK-47s. "An AK-47 is too easily converted," Swank said. He said assault weapons like the AK-47 can be sold for $250 and higher. Bullets for the gun are inexpensive, he said. "They cost about $4 or $5 for a box of 20," Swank said. As required by federal law, a FBI background check must be conducted for each gun sold, he explained. When asked his reaction to the shooting, Swank said he was surprised. "I didn't think anything like that would happen around here," he said.

Andrew Griffin: 487-6383;

agriffin@thetowntalk.com


:barf: :what: :barf:

[Skunkabilly]

I thought 9mm revolvers, .38 caliber Saturday Night Specials, sawed off shotguns that spread the bullets and kill everyone in a room and .50 BMG rifles were the choice of criminals.

[TheeBadOne]

Nice rap sheet. I'm sure the friends and family will dismiss this as "Trumped up charges".... :rolleyes:

[braindead0]

Here is a paste of Saint Molettes arrest history.

What about convictions? I do know people who have several arrests on trumped up charges (first hand knowledge that they were bogus).

Not to mention the obviously biased sarchastic "Saint" reference. Perhaps he's a complete lunatic, I don't gnow. But basing it on arrest history is wrong.

[Ian]

One of those articles (I can't remember which one) specifically mentioned that the second-degree murder charge was dropped. I don't know about the first-degree charge, though. Also, like braindead0 said, these are not convictions or even trials, only arrests.

[KY Moose]

Arrest record for Anthony J. Molette, 25:

Sept. 14, 1995: Contempt of court
Oct. 20, 1995: Aggravated battery
March 13, 1996: Unauthorized use more than $1,00; resisting arrest by flight; failure to pay fine
March 17, 1996: Simple battery
July 4, 1996: Anti-drug loitering
Sept. 4, 1996: Drug traffic loitering
Sept. 23, 1996: Illegal carrying of weapons
Nov. 26, 1996: Concealed weapons
Dec. 154, 1996: Criminal damage; flight from an officer; no driver's license; lights and tail lights
Jan. 1, 1997: Possession of Schedule II; flight from an officer; resisting an officer
Jan. 2, 1997: Reckless operation of a vehicle; resisting arrest
Aug. 13, 1997: Attempted second-degree murder
Sept. 27, 1997: Anti-drug loitering
Jan. 11, 1998: Drug traffic loitering
April 20, 1998: Attempted first-degree murder
May 7, 1999: Simple battery
Oct. 11, 2000: Possession of Schedule II; possession of a gun with an obliterated serial number
Feb. 9, 2001: Possession, distribution, and manufacture of Schedule II
March 4, 2001: Simple battery; violation of probation; contempt of court
April 8, 2001: Simple battery
Dec. 30, 2001: Violation of probation; contempt of court
Sept. 23, 2002: Contempt of court
Source: Rapides Parish Court records
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am setting here wondering how in the heck this POS is, excuse me, was walking the streets. This right here is one of our problems in society, not to mention the attitude of the author of the original article in this thread.

[DeltaElite]

I would like to see his conviction record also, but more importantly I would like to see the case files.
Just because you don't get convicted or go to trial, doesn't mean you didn't commit the crime. People beat going to trial for many reasons, few of which are related to them being innocent. :D

This guy was a loser, regardless of his convicition record. Most people never get arrested in life and if they do it is usually for minor issues, not this guys list of shame.


On a side note, the NAACP head there that is defending the deceased, has a history of Armed Robbery. Another fine citizen becomes a politician.
FWIW, I arrested our local NAACP President twice for assaulting his wife. Both times he cried and complained that I was ruining his political career. :rolleyes:
Too bad he didn't show the same concern for his wifes face that he did for his budding political career.

[Boats]

Well you can be accused (arrested) for anything, but if the system never convicts you via the jury system, it don't mean a thing.

Without a conviction record, this guy could have bought anything he wanted from a gun store legally, no matter his arrest record.

[DeltaElite]

Spoken like a true lawyer Boats. :neener:

Beating a criminal charge gets a "not guilty" verdict, not an "innocent" verdict.
"Not guilty" just means the guilt wasn't proven, "innocent" means they didn't do it.
OJ Simpson was found "not guilty", but we all know he is not "innocent".

I don't care how he got the guns, just that he used them.

[Frohickey]

Okay, we have the arrest record of the person that has had multiple run-ins with local law enforcement...

Is an arrest considered a conviction, whereby due process has been served?

Yet another reason that we should not have any plea bargaining, whereby the accused are given lighter sentences instead of the original crimes they are charged with. Then, you have parole which lets these convicted people out early to prey on yet more innocents.

If the sentence is 12 years, I fully expect 4383 days of incarceration, with no time off for good behavior, and no parole.

If the DA thinks he/she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt then, he/she should do so, and charge the crime, and go to court. No more 'I think we should take the deal, its better than Murder 1 for 25years... I'll offer him a reduced Manslaughter deal of 5 years, they don't know that the main 'eye-witness' was zonked out of his gourd during the night in question'!




To bring this back from the hypothetical, and back to the real... I was once given a ticket for 'Littering'. This was given to me and my friend by a Park Ranger, or some such. My friend and I were at the local range, at least, a piece of land that was being used by the locals as a range, where there were all sorts of leftover targets and garbage all over the place. Friend has a 9mm carbine with a end-shroud (made by some smith that has long died already), and the 'Ranger' must have been looking at us from afar. On the way out, after we have packed our guns, and pick up the stuff we brought to shoot, and maybe a little bit of stuff that was left there, up comes the 'Ranger' in his truck with lights and sirens. Stops us, asks to see our guns and proceeded to measure my friend's 9mm carbine for barrel length! He was oh-so-magnanamous to say that he will let us go for a 'Littering' ticket (the carbine is of legal length). The ticket turns out to be a misdemeanor, which required the both of us to appear in court. When we showed up, the judge called us up, and said that he will turn it into an infraction if we pay the fine! Sounds like a little extortion deal happening here. :cuss:
(This happened in Chico, CA) :cuss:

[braindead0]

Two of my friends (and almost me, I wasn't with them) were arrested for attempted murder...of a police officer (Simi Valley, CA..anybody from the area may remember this).

What really happened, is the cop handcuffed himself to a chainlink fence at Simi Valley High School, and shot himself through the hand. When medics and police arrived, he described some 'bikers'.... Turns out that was me and 2 friends. Claimed we jumped him.

Well, luckily... he confessed pretty quickly thereafter, but not before Jody and J.D. were arrested and thrown in the can for a few hours.

I could have had a rap sheet. Just becuase of one POS cop.

And then there was the Hollywood Detective, that attempted to steal a motorcycle from my side yard. I was going to sell it to his 18yr old son, he didn't like that. He sneaks over, goes into the side yard of the house and tries to steal the bike. Luckily we caught him in the act and stopped it (thinking back on this, I think not a good idea...). Neighbor called the local PD, and they impounded the motorcycle (even though I had proof of ownership).

That last one got my mom in quite a huff, she wrote letter after letter to the Hollywood division..and got nowhere.

[DeltaElite]

Dang Braindead0, you have lead a charmed life, haven't you. ;)

Sadly you have dealt with the dirty element of Le, the ones that I want to see flogged in public and then executed.
I have a bad attitude towards dirty cops.

That is why I said I would want to see the case files and see for myself what the basis for the charge was in each case.
However, the sheer number of charges makes me suspicious of Molette as a person.

So did your buddies make some cash off of the PD that employed that POS officer?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems that Molette was too lazy to go to Olan Mills to get an annual photo.
Instead he just went to jail and got 8x10's of his annual mug photo. :neener:

[braindead0]

So did your buddies make some cash off of the PD that employed that POS officer?

I wish, nope.. I don't even know if they talked to a lawyer. I probably should have when that cop tried to steal the cycle.. Probably should have at least taken him to small claims. But, instead.. I helped my mom write letters to the editor, state representatives..and his boss(es). I don't know if he got his pension, but word has it he 'retired early'.

I'd have to say I've met more good cops than bad (yeah, even the ones giving me tickets..only ever got one that I didn't deserve ;-). It's just a shame that the 'job' has turned into just that for many, just a job..go with the flow...collect nice pension after 20yrs..

[mrat]

The guy that wrote this is a lunatic and is a danger to everybody that comes in contact with him, not just LEOs.

It cracks me up to see some people posting here "understand" this guy's feelings and then complain about the us vs. them attitude that LEOs have.:rolleyes:

[Powderman]

Oh, this is just outstanding.

You know, I usually attempt to reply to threads like this with a modicum of courtesy and some respect.

Not this time.

Bring it on, scumbag. So, if I knock on your door, you'll kill me?

Better keep some coins in your pocket to pay Charon his due, muffy--because I'll take you with me. You will also behold the river Styx should you even THINK about threatening another officer--OR a law abiding civilian in my presence.

How do I know that they're law-abiding? Simple!

THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO KILL ME!!!!!

Some of you state that cops are dressed more like soldiers, right? We wear all of that hideous body armor, Kevlar helmets, and carry high powered firearms, right? Our appearance scares you, right? Awwww, poor liddle baby! We are overarmed, correct?

Tell that to those two cops in Alexandria, who won't be seeing their loved ones again--EVER!

Shot down like rabid dogs from ambush, with a REAL assault rifle.

We look frightening! Dangerous! A threat to civilized society!!

Kinda like those filthy politically incorrect AR's, AK's, CETME's and .50's you have in your safe, huh?

So much for civilized discussion! Some folks just don't get it.

You know what, you stroke? I wear a uniform to SERVE and PROTECT decent people from people like you!!!

Bring it on, punk.:fire: :fire: :fire: