Friend of family arrested


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GoRon
October 9, 2004, 02:11 PM
A friend of my stepmother and dad is a lawyer. He has a former client whom he fears. He chose to break Illinios law by keeping a loaded firearm in his briefcase.

We do not have concealed carry in IL, guns and ammo must be carried seperately from each other.

In Illinios you must have a firearm owner ID card (FOID). He is a FOID card holder.

Apparently he is not a shining example of responsible gun ownership.

He forgot to remove his firearm from the briefcase before going into court.

He is in a world of trouble, I don't even know if he has been bailed out yet bail was set so high.

My family knowing my interest in firearms asked if I knew any organizations that might be able to help him defend himself. Not with money but with knowledge of the landscape on this issue.

I explained to them that what he did was wrong on many levels and that he will be lucky to escape going to jail.

Does any one know of any organizations that I could pass along to them?

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Standing Wolf
October 9, 2004, 02:53 PM
The wrong is Illinois law, which infringes the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

If I were in such a situation, I believe I'd contact the N.R.A. to start looking for a lawyer with experience in Second Amendment cases.

MP5
October 9, 2004, 03:29 PM
Gun Owners of America

cerberus
October 9, 2004, 03:45 PM
Illinois is a good example of a State that cares more for the gun carrying thugs then thay do about their residents being able to defend themselves.:banghead: Just another worthless State among many others I never intend living in or visiting.:rolleyes:

Wildalaska
October 9, 2004, 05:25 PM
Apparently he is not a shining example of responsible gun ownership.

Aint a shining example of a smart attorney either :)

WildwhatagoofballAlaska

Chuck Dye
October 9, 2004, 05:55 PM
I will bet that the only hope the guy has is a cooperative DA and pretrial diversion. Given the location and his status as an attorney, presumably of standing in that courthouse, a cooperative DA may be difficult. Don’t know what Illinois law may provide in the way of pretrial diversion. Regardless, the spanking will hurt.

ACP230
October 9, 2004, 06:50 PM
Can he plead the "Doctrine Of Competing Harms?"

As I remember it you can claim that breaking the law is excusable if the consequences of not breaking the law are worse. Death at the hand of a former client is fairly serious, no?

(I'm not a lawyer, but did read an article on this by Massad Ayoob.)

Gary
October 9, 2004, 08:46 PM
I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY AND I AM NOT OFFERING LEGAL ADVICE!!
There is so much wrong with what this guy did that there is going to be a severe spanking. #1 A courthouse is a resticted place and there is almost no affirmative defense. I think it is only a misdemenor and might be a good thing to plead to if the other charges are dropped. His standing in the community is going to have a lot to do with the dispostion of this case, I think. #2 In Illinois a resident can transport a firearm if (a) he has a FOID card (b) the firearm is unloaded and (c) if the firearm is enclosed in a case or other container. The location of the ammunition or the firearm or their relationship to each other is not an issue if the above three criteria have been met. If the clip was not in the gun but both were enclosed in the brief case he may have an out. The problem is that he at some point he opened the briefcase causing the firearm to be no longer be enclosed, evidently. Non-residents have tougher rules to follow because a non-resident can not get a FOID card. Failure to follow these rules is a felony. This guy is an attorney? I don't think that there is any way he will be able to skate on this one but if he wants to talk with someone who has experience and wins in Illinois courts contact information follows:

Concealed Carry, Inc.
PO BOX 4597
OAK BROOK IL 60522-4597
Tel: 630 660-3935
Email: john@concealcarry.org

Contact: John Birch, President

Pilgrim
October 9, 2004, 09:02 PM
I take it from the description of the case the attorney is a defense counsel. The situation could have been much worse if he had negligently taken his weapon into the holding cells where the in custody defendants are held. He then would have been guilty of introducing a firearm into a jail.

Pilgrim

Jim K
October 9, 2004, 10:19 PM
Had he been part of the mob, he would have been released with apologies from the police and DA, who would have been a lot more scared of his bosses than of any legal penalties.

Jim

The_Antibubba
October 10, 2004, 12:11 AM
Contact the NRA-they might be able to keep him out of jail. I'd be surprised, though, if he isn't disbarred over this, even if it stays out of court or he is acquitted. He might only be able to avoid jail by agreeing to disbarment. It will all depend on his relationship with the DA's office. Contrary to popular belief and television shows, many lawyers representing opposing sides get along very well outside the courtroom, "it's just business" being the line of thinking-unless one or the other is a jerk.

Arc Angel
October 10, 2004, 09:21 AM
:rolleyes: Hmmm! Sounds like an Illinois problem to me. Here in Pennsylvania, CHL holders simply get to check their carry pieces at the courthouse door. This seems so perfectly logical and works well in PA everyday of the week! All courthouses have metal detectors and sheriff’s deputies at the door. You smile at the deputies; they smile back at you. You say something like; ‘I’m carrying.’ They say something like; ‘Please show me your firearms ID; and, then, place the gun on the table.’ After that your gun is placed inside a security locker until you’re ready to permanently leave the building. Like I said; ‘Works very well!’ (But, maybe, that's just because this is Pennsylvania!) ;)

Linux&Gun Guy
October 10, 2004, 10:00 AM
^ Are you saying he should get mobbed up? :D

Hopefully he will not lose his RKBA over this.

Matthew Courtney
October 10, 2004, 10:06 AM
There is so much wrong with what this guy did that there is going to be a severe spanking. #1 A courthouse is a resticted place and there is almost no affirmative defense. I think it is only a misdemenor and might be a good thing to plead to if the other charges are dropped. His standing in the community is going to have a lot to do with the dispostion of this case, I think. #2 In Illinois a resident can transport a firearm if (a) he has a FOID card (b) the firearm is unloaded and (c) if the firearm is enclosed in a case or other container.

There is nothing wrong with this guy did. There is a whole lot wrong with the law in Illinois. There should be no places where honest citizens should be denied the ability to defend themselves. Such places are rightfully refered to as "criminal empowerment zones". The government gets to determine what is legal and what is illegal, not what is right and wrong.

GoRon
October 10, 2004, 10:13 AM
Thanks guys, looks like the NRA, Concealed Carry and GOA are the groups to contact.

I'll be visiting with the folks later and should get more details.

I forget that most of the country doesn't have such draconian gun laws on the books.

chaim
October 10, 2004, 10:31 AM
A friend of my stepmother and dad is a lawyer. He has a former client whom he fears. He chose to break Illinios law by keeping a loaded firearm in his briefcase....

Apparently he is not a shining example of responsible gun ownership....

I explained to them that what he did was wrong on many levels and that he will be lucky to escape going to jail.

Just a couple beefs with what you say here.

First, I don't see how this is an example of irresponsible gun ownership. What is irresponsible about carrying a gun when you are under threat? Sounds very responsible to me (hmm, I think the vast majority of people on this board carry a gun at least occasionally, and many do everyday, and most here do not deal with the dregs of society and are not under threat).

As for being "wrong on many levels", the only thing wrong on many levels is a law that doesn't allow a person to do the responsible thing and safely carry a gun for his/her own protection. The only thing this guy did "wrong" was make a mistake and carry the gun someplace where he'd be discovered when in a state with immoral laws that disarm him.

I do feel for the guy, he is in much trouble. I can relate living in MD as well, since CCW is nearly impossible to get here (though I do think lawyers as "officers of the court" are one of the classes of people allowed to get CCW permits if they fear for their safety). Those of us who live in states like yours and mine need to get on the ball and work for more rational gun laws that don't victimize us twice (you may get victimized by the criminals if you do obey the law "criminal safety zones", you get victimized by the state if you ignore the law and carry a tool to defend yourself "illegal carry").

GoRon
October 10, 2004, 10:41 AM
As for being "wrong on many levels", the only thing wrong on many levels is a law that doesn't allow a person to do the responsible thing and safely carry a gun for his/her own protection.

Agreed on that point. I should have said illegal on many levels.

chaim
October 10, 2004, 10:45 AM
Agreed on that point. I should have said illegal on many levels
Understood, and I thought (hoped) that might have been what you meant.

Edmond
October 10, 2004, 10:52 AM
If this happened in a Chicago court room, they're going to nail him hard and try to make an example out of him. The anti-gun culture in Chicago is just so damn high. No one but the police, politically connected and criminals have guns. Of those 3 groups, only the police are legit and that's questionable.:rolleyes:

The DA really going to go after this guy hard. Especially if he's a defense attorney that the DA faced before.

You wouldn't figure that defending your own life would be a crime but it is here in Illinois.:scrutiny:

Sarah Hughes
October 10, 2004, 12:21 PM
The worst thing about all of this is that in most countries in the world (e.g. Pakistan, India, China, Iceland, etc) not only is the right to carry a gun never disputed, but also it is insisted upon that one protects one's self, family and community by any means possible.

I think the lawyer should be commended for inadvertently raising the fact that guns laws are arbitrary, inconsistent and alomst impossible to live with.

Don Gwinn
October 10, 2004, 02:13 PM
1. Was the gun loaded or not? If it was unloaded, he's in a lot less trouble, as it's only the inadvertent carry into the courthouse that's actually against the law then. That's a relatively minor thing that has gone away for officers of the court before, though more for judges than anyone else.

2. Was this in Chicago or elsewhere?

3. I second the thought of Concealed Carry, Inc., but understand that John has often said that he won't throw CCI's weight behind anyone that can't at least credibly claim that they followed the law and were discriminated against because of a gun. So far they've never accepted the case of someone who simply violated Illinois law, regardless of what we all think of Illinois law.

I would also contact the Champaign County Rifle Association (http://www.gunssavelife.com) just for grins and see what they say. They're not local to you, which is a problem, but they're aggressive and tenacious.

Wayne D
October 10, 2004, 02:51 PM
The worst thing about all of this is that in most countries in the world (e.g. Pakistan, India, China, Iceland, etc) not only is the right to carry a gun never disputed, but also it is insisted upon that one protects one's self, family and community by any means possible.

China? I was told by a Chinese citizen, still living in China BTW, that gun ownership in China is illegal. As a matter of fact, he asked if I would take him hunting when came to the US.:)

Texian Pistolero
October 10, 2004, 10:06 PM
Moparmike is right.
This post has been edited to delete offensive material.

I still can't get it that a Mid-West state is so weird.

Hey even D.C. has voted to allow handguns.

Moparmike
October 10, 2004, 11:51 PM
Careful there, Texian. Don Gwinn is an Peace Officer in IL. Not everyone is a JBT because they enforce the draconian laws produced by the liberal lawmakers and the idiotarians they represent.

ScottsGT
October 11, 2004, 12:38 PM
Sad to say it, but he now needs to join the SOAR Association.

Soap
On
A
Rope
Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. :evil:

PATH
October 11, 2004, 05:14 PM
They are going to nail him to the wall. I am sorry to see it hapen but that is what happens in liberal urban areas like chicago. Damned liberal anti-gun creeps!:fire:

Don Gwinn
October 11, 2004, 11:35 PM
Don Gwinn is an Peace Officer in IL.
Who's a what in where now? :p

Actually, I am but a humble teacher of children. And seller of computers. You may have me confused with Jeff, who actually is a peace officer in TWO towns not far from here and yet never comes to visit, the creaky old . . . . but enough about me. :uhoh:

Jeff White
October 12, 2004, 02:31 AM
Hi Don,
This creaky old peace officer has been working a lot, but I will stop in next time I get towards Springfield. :)

What we have here is Felony UUW. 720/ILCS95-24-10(from Chap 38, para 24-1) Unlawful use of weapons. The statute covers all kinds of weapons. Subsection 24-1(a)(4) covers firearms and states it is unlawful for any person to:

(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:
(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;
or
(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card

This is a class 4 felony. However, the staute goes on to make it a worse offense if it occurs in certain places:

(1.5) A person who violates subsection 24‑1(a)(4), 24‑1(a)(9), or 24‑1(a)(10) in any school, regardless of the time of day or the time of year, in residential property owned, operated, or managed by a public housing agency or leased by a public housing agency as part of a scattered site or mixed‑income development, in a public park, in a courthouse, on the real property comprising any school, regardless of the time of day or the time of year, on residential property owned, operated, or managed by a public housing agency or leased by a public housing agency as part of a scattered site or mixed‑income development, on the real property comprising any public park, on the real property comprising any courthouse, in any conveyance owned, leased, or contracted by a school to transport students to or from school or a school related activity, or on any public way within 1,000 feet of the real property comprising any school, public park, courthouse, or residential property owned, operated, or managed by a public housing agency or leased by a public housing agency as part of a scattered site or mixed‑income development commits a Class 3 felony.

(3) Paragraphs (1), (1.5), and (2) of this subsection (c) shall not apply to law enforcement officers or security officers of such school, college, or university or to students carrying or possessing firearms for use in training courses, parades, hunting, target shooting on school ranges, or otherwise with the consent of school authorities and which firearms are transported unloaded enclosed in a suitable case, box, or transportation package.
(4) For the purposes of this subsection (c),"school" means any public or private elementary or secondary school, community college, college, or university.
(d) The presence in an automobile other than a public omnibus of any weapon, instrument or substance referred to in subsection (a)(7) is prima facie evidence that it is in the possession of, and is being carried by, all persons occupying such automobile at the time such weapon, instrument or substance is found, except under the following circumstances: (i) if such weapon, instrument or instrumentality is found upon the person of one of the occupants therein; or (ii) if such weapon, instrument or substance is found in an automobile operated for hire by a duly licensed driver in the due, lawful and proper pursuit of his trade, then such presumption shall not apply to the driver.
(e) Exemptions. Crossbows, Common or Compound bows and Underwater Spearguns are exempted from the definition of ballistic knife as defined in paragraph (1) of subsection (a) of this Section.
(Source: P.A. 90‑686, eff. 1‑1‑99; 91‑673, eff. 12‑22‑99; 91‑690, eff. 4‑13‑00.)


So yes, your friend is in trouble. There is unfortunatley no affirmative defense he can use. I don't see any out. It all is going to depend on where this happened and what the State's Attorney's thoughts on this are. I'm a cop, not an attorney, but I don't see much chance of beating this on a gun rights defense....Unfortunatley the Illinois Constitution grants the right to bear arms subject to the police power whatever that means......

Jeff

Guntalk
October 12, 2004, 04:11 PM
The SAF has a list of lawyers it can refer your friend to. These lawyers have volunteered to handle firearms cases.

www.saf.org

moa
October 13, 2004, 12:11 PM
IIRC, in Maryland, the attorney Bob Sher has been in litigation against the Maryland State Police in order to acquire a CCL. Apparenlty, so far, he has not been successful.

I think the primary reason he is suing is that he is an attorney, and comes into contact with all kinds of unsavory characters, and has to enter dangerous neighborhoods.

And, of course, as an attorney Sher is an officer of the court.

Sher sometimes sits in for G. Gordon Liddy on the Liddy radio talk show.

I think an officer of the court should be cut some slack.

DCR
October 13, 2004, 06:29 PM
Sorry for your acquaintance's situation:(

I fondly remember the days as a prosecutor when I spotted the judge strapping on his pistol under his robe; I asked if he minded if the cops or I had a firearm in the courtroom as well. He grinned and in so many words indicated "the more, the merrier!":cool: From that point on, we had an unspoken understanding to cover each other if things went south.

DCR

GoRon
October 13, 2004, 07:14 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I will be seeing him this weekend at my Dads house and will pass along the organizations you all have suggested.

FYI this occured in Kendall County. The judge that set bail set it very high, he wouldn't lower it.

My friend ended up spending almost a week in jail.

He did get a lawyer right away.

He is a family and small business lawyer so this was out of his experience anyway.

p35
October 13, 2004, 07:45 PM
One courthouse I work in regularly has a set of small lockers in the entry hall with a sign that says, basically, "If you are carrying a firearm check it here". Of course, the armed security guys show up for the high stress type hearings, but it always seemed kind of leaky to me.

I personally don't mind not being allowed to carry in a courthouse- I've seen too many people do too many crazy things in the context of family problems. Once had a guy settle his divorce calmly and rationally and then, the day it was final, go home and kill himself. We went straight from the divorce to the probate- cause of death was listed as "16 gauge shotgun". Not a big step from killing yourself to killing others, and it's happened more than once.

Anyway, I'm sorry for this guy, but he should have been more careful. I expect that with a clean record it can be settled quietly.

Dave Markowitz
October 13, 2004, 08:09 PM
Here's a pro-RKBA attorney in IL:

Melissa Anne Maye
602 Center Parkway, Suite C
Yorkville, IL 60560
Phone #: (630) 553-3637
Fax #: (630) 553-3635
Internet email address: mmaye442@aol.com
Areas of practice - firearms manufacturers defense, (municipal suits and products liability), real estate, business transactions, general practice

She may be able to refer him to a local criminal defense attorney, if he doesn't already know a good one.

Ms. Maye is one of the pro-RKBA attorneys listed in The Shooters' Bar(SM) my list of pro-gun lawyers.

http://www.building-tux.com/dsmjd/law/lawr_list.htm

JerryM
October 14, 2004, 12:42 PM
I hope this does not bring flame, but it probably will.
All of us agree that the current gun laws are much too restrictive.

Having said that, no amount of griping will change the circumstances when we do that which is against the law. I feel some pain for the lawyer, but he is supposed to know the law, and when he does not obey, either by design or forgetfulness, then he will suffer. It should be obvious to him that the courthouse is a prohibited place, and to forget is not very excusible for a lawyer.

I hope that he does not get jail time or charged with a felony, but I have little hope that he will get off that light.

Jerry

Browns Fan
October 14, 2004, 12:58 PM
I recently visited southern Ill and voiced my concern to some of my inlaws there. They just lamented the fact that the limosine liberals up in Chicago think they own the state. Until more people in this state wake up and vote, it would appear that they do!

gandog56
September 24, 2006, 12:41 AM
Moderator



Join Date: 12-21-02
Location: Virden, IL
Posts: 5,140 1. Was the gun loaded or not? If it was unloaded, he's in a lot less trouble, as it's only the inadvertent carry into the courthouse that's actually against the law then. That's a relatively minor thing that has gone away for officers of the court before, though more for judges than anyone else.

2. Was this in Chicago or elsewhere?


I was told by a gun store owner here that they consider a gun "loaded" if the magaizine has any rounds in it, even if not in the same case as the gun.

If it's in Chicago, he's toast.

dragongoddess
September 24, 2006, 12:51 AM
Just wondering.
They don't have metal detectors in the courthouse there?
I'm also wondering since he is an officer of the court and is under threat it seems that an exception is due here. After all there are some states that allow officers of the court to have privilages that normal people don't have.

Chuck Dye
September 24, 2006, 12:58 AM
GoRon,

Since this thread has been dredged up out of the past, is there any chance of an update? Please?

Huck

Wiley
September 24, 2006, 07:59 AM
Some thoughts(?)

Based on what Jeff White wrote Subsection 24-1(a)(4)(ii) might provide an out in that it was in his briefcase, ie, 'not immediately accessible'. Also he may be able to make the argument that he never actualy entered the courthouse if the xray search picked up the gun.

From what the OP said the lawyer dosen't specialize in criminal law and not a shooter so it probably never occured to him that what he was doing was illegal. Just because you're a lawyer dosen't nessesarily mean you know all the laws.

Would be nice if, no matter how this case turns out, there is an individual who knows how the system is worked (yes, that is deliberate) gets angry enough at the anti-RKBA laws in IL to become involved in overturning them.

NukemJim
September 24, 2006, 10:12 AM
I was told by a gun store owner here that they consider a gun "loaded" if the magaizine has any rounds in it, even if not in the same case as the gun.


To the best of my knowledge that is not the case in Illinois.

As a matter of fact "fanny pack" carry with the gun unloaded but the magazine loaded and in the same compartment of the fanny pack is theorieticly legal. ( Do a search this has been discussed extensivley)

IIRC the requirements are basicly 1) No ammo in gun 2) Case designed for a firearm 3) Firearm completley enclosed.

Having said that. If I have firearms and ammo in vehicle both ammo and firearms are in seperate locked containers. There are many "anti" LEOs in the Chicagoland area and I prefer to avoid any misunderstandings.

NukemJIm

ALHunter
September 24, 2006, 10:37 AM
I am an attorney, and here's my .02 cents. He needs to find the best local criminal defense lawyer he can. Preferably one who has a good working relationship with the DA's office. He's a lawyer in the community, he needs to stay local in representation, not go outside to the NRA, GOA, or other groups.

He needs to be VERY concerned not just about the criminal prosectuion but losing his bar license. It will be bad enough if he has to serve some time, but compounded even worse if after he completes a sentence he has his bar license revoked, meaning he can't practice law again and earn a living in profession he knows.

Lots of folks mistakenly walk through metal detectors at airports with guns. Anecdotally, I think those folks get put through the ringer, but in the end I haven't heard of anyone actually serving time (doesn't mean there hasn't been anyone of course).

In the end, I think your friend will face a conviction of a felony or misdemeanor, probably a heavy fine, but no jail time. The conviction could be enough to get his bar license pulled.

Get a good criminal attorney as I suggested above. Perhaps investigate getting another attorney who has handled bar greivances or other attorney discipline cases to handle the bar license issue.

Good luck. He needs it, especially in Illinois.

Wayne D
September 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
Hey guys, this thread is two years old. :D

Wiley
September 24, 2006, 03:54 PM
AH-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H!

I hereby formaly request the date original post be a part of the forum list.


:banghead:

torpid
September 24, 2006, 03:57 PM
Folks talking to ghost echoes again...

:D

SIOP
September 24, 2006, 04:25 PM
Aint a shining example of a smart attorney either


Ding Ding Ding.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the winning post in this thread.

Wesker
September 24, 2006, 04:27 PM
While Illinois is a good example of how NOT to model yourself after, even super pro-gun states like Florida, Alaska, and Texas ban guns from courtrooms, and it's illegal to carry there. Had this lawyer been busted for having it on him anywhere but a courtroom I'm sure it wouldn't be half as bad.

Travis McGee
September 24, 2006, 05:07 PM
Too bad he's not a congress critter. They'd have handed his pistol back with a salute.

GoRon
September 26, 2006, 12:27 AM
Sorry I took so long to get back to this resurrected thread, I was out of town.

He was convicted and the judge presiding was doing everything he could to make sure that was the outcome.

He spent over a year in jail and then a higher court reversed or threw out the case against him. Apparently the original judges creative way of getting the outcome in the case he wanted sowed the seeds for getting it reversed.

From what I understand his record is completely clean even though he ended up spending time in jail.

From my perspective he was guilty of breaking Illinois law. If the judge had followed the rules he would probably be in jail still. The judge used his power in an arbitrary way and the checks in the system let our family friend free because of the injust way the case was handled.

I don't know any of the particulars about the case as the info I got was second hand through my Dad and his wife. One thing I can say with some certitude was that there was no ill intent in bringing the gun to the courthouse.

IndianaBoy
September 26, 2006, 01:59 AM
Illinois is a dark stain on the Midwest. I won't even buy gas on my way across that state.

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