ND at the Cal Expo Gunshow...


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esheato
October 9, 2004, 08:47 PM
Shall we talk about NDs? ;)

This weekend was the big Cal Expo gunshow in Sacramento. Today was opening day and plenty of people showed up. My friends and I were waiting in line for the doors to open.

By the main entrance was a table with about 5 officers checking guns and applying zip ties to actions. Normal procedure as far as I know. Posted signs all over the place saying "No loaded firearms in the show."

After we spent all our money (about 2 hours...lol), two friends and I step outside the main entrance to wait for another friend. While waiting, we're going through each others bags, checking out the new toys, when one of the guys and myself notice a guy standing by himself. Both of us take note, not because he looked like a threat, because he looked pre-occupied. His left arm was in a sling.

At this point he's about 15 feet behind and facing us and people are entering and exiting the show off to the other side of us.

BOOM!

I crouch trying to figure out what's going on and everyone starts looking around. I spy the pre-occupied guy looking at the ground then looking at his leg, calf, foot....then look up like nothing happened. :scrutiny:

Of course, here comes the officers, about 4 in all rushing out to figure out what happened.

Turns out that Mr. Pre-Occupied had a loaded mini Glock (26 or 27, we thought 26 due to the report) in a holster on his right side. There was also a nice and shiny badge right in front of that holster. :what:

The cops pull him off to the back of the building and disarm him, unload the weapon and start chewing his...well, ya know.

The story is that he had a zip-tie around his gun (I'm not sure where or why it was loaded and zip-tied) and that he went to cut it off with a pocketknife. I don't know if he hit the trigger with the knife or if something else occured.

There was a nice little 1/2 inch hole in the blacktop and the slug somehow entered the show. It was located just inside the main doors behind a vendors table. Nice. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what happened to the shooter, but I'm pretty sure he's having a bad day.

Needless to say, we left right after that.

The other friend we were waiting on was inside the show when the incident occured and said they whole place got dead quiet for a few seconds trying to figure out 5 W's. He also said it was loud as hell. Oh, I know, I was standing right next to him. ;)

Ed

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Preacherman
October 9, 2004, 09:03 PM
If there was a cable tie on the gun, a few burning questions come to mind:

1. Who is the @#$% who put a cable tie on a LOADED gun??? :cuss:

2. Who would put a cable tie in front of the trigger of a loaded gun? :banghead:

3. Assuming the badge was real, who is this @#$%'s firearms instructor, and when did he last qualify? :fire:

Sheesh... :mad:

WhoKnowsWho
October 10, 2004, 05:41 AM
2. Who would put a cable tie in front of the trigger of a loaded gun?

Maybe he put it on himself so the check in table wouldn't unload and tie it, so he wouldn't have to reload it after he left... :fire: Who knows...

Arc Angel
October 10, 2004, 09:00 AM
:scrutiny: The Glock part doesn't surprise me; by any chance did this guy look anything like,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/War_Angel/Clouseau.jpg

The story is that he had a zip-tie around his gun (I'm not sure where or why it was loaded and zip-tied) and that he went to cut it off with a pocketknife. I don't know if he hit the trigger with the knife or if something else occurred.

Sure sounds like, ‘professional courtesy’ to me. Zip ties and loaded guns DON’T go together.

Maybe he put it on himself so the check in table wouldn't unload and tie it, so he wouldn't have to reload it after he left... Who knows...

What a scary thought! Kind’ a makes you wonder what happened to his left arm – doesn’t it! :eek:

Smoke
October 10, 2004, 09:15 AM
So in California they even make the Cops unload and ziptie their guns before entering a gunshow?


Sheeesh.

All these assinine rules and laws do not promote guns safety. Maybe, just maybe, had that cop been allowed to leave his weapon, loaded, in the holster, he wouldn't have had it out fiddling with it and had the ND.

But what do I know....


Smoke

Sactown
October 10, 2004, 12:53 PM
Jeez,... I must've just missed it. I was there from 9:30 to 10:30. I spent all my money at the show too. BTW, 1400 rnds of Turk 8mm is friggin heavy!!

twency
October 10, 2004, 01:04 PM
The Glock part doesn't surprise me
Come on now. Are you just trolling, or what? The model of gun this guy owned had nothing to do with his having a ND. There are millions of Glock owners who don't handle their guns like idiots, and there are plenty of non-Glock owners who do.

-twency
____________
Let he who's fellow brand-owners are without ND, cast the first lead.

olyAR73
October 10, 2004, 03:14 PM
That's really too bad. The last thing our fun shows need is any more bad publiss'. Ive been to the Cal-Expo show many times when I lived in the socialist republic of Sac. They put on a great show.

Post script; please tell me that "badge" was a shield and not a star. I worked for the SSO for a time and they had a great firearms program back then. I cant remember if the SO or PD covered the Cal-Expo shows though.

Valkman
October 10, 2004, 04:22 PM
They used to put on a great show - 2 huge buildings with 2 floors each in the main exibition halls. Last time I went ('03) it was a tiny show in a much smaller building and there were very few new guns for sale. Lots of crafts, jerky, Nazi stuff and t-shirts though.

Arc Angel
October 10, 2004, 05:22 PM
Come on now. Are you just trolling, or what? The model of gun this guy owned had nothing to do with his having a ND. There are millions of Glock owners who don't handle their guns like idiots, and there are plenty of non-Glock owners who do.

-twency

:what: Oh, contraire! The model gun this guy was using has everything to do with what happened. In case you haven’t noticed all the safeties on Glock pistols are PASSIVE rather than ACTIVE. See the, ‘Pistolsmithing’ column in the November issue of, ‘American Handgunner’ if you need more insight.

We can, still, agree to disagree, though, without any name calling. To show you there are no hard feelings on my part, how about letting me buy the drinks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/War_Angel/Kool-AidDrinker.jpg :D


PS: I own and shoot Glock pistols everyday. What I refuse to do, however, is, 'kid myself' about what any Glock pistol can, or cannot do well. (Maybe that's one of the reasons, 'Why' I've never had an ND with one.)

larry_minn
October 10, 2004, 06:49 PM
Everyone knows Glock pistols are more dangerous. Heck every time I pull the trigger (if gun is loaded) the dang thing goes off. I have carried 1911 type guns that I would on occasion pull the trigger and nothing happen. THEN I hit safety and it MIGHT work. Check the grip and all is good. Glocks I can have shot either hand/reduced area/gloves/etc and always goes off. (when trigger pulled) Dang thing has NEVER gone off by itself. (must be defective as others go off on their own) :)
Course you need to have some idea of firearm safety and that most rare of things (common sense) to handle them safely.

MaceWindu
October 10, 2004, 07:02 PM
Dang thing has NEVER gone off by itself. (must be defective as others go off on their own)

Amen...:D

ANY GUN = pull trigger on loaded chamber = ND, BANG!

1911's, Glocks, Beretta, XD, rifle, shotgun, etc...irresponsible, unsafe = BANG!

So give the whole Glock thing a rest...sheesh..

MaceWindu

cxm
October 10, 2004, 07:15 PM
It is a pretty safe bet to say a ND is a Glock... you will be right 95+% of the time... they are just basically unsafe if the operator is not very well trained... which leaves out most cops.

Unfortunate but true.... even worse considering they have a manual safety on many they sell in Europe... would save LOTS of p roblems if they put them on here.

/r

Chuck

MaceWindu
October 10, 2004, 07:23 PM
It is a pretty safe bet to say a ND is a Glock... you will be right 95+% of the time... they are just basically unsafe if the operator is not very well trained...

Please state where you picked up this FACTUAL information...


...they are just basically unsafe if the operator is not very well trained...

cxm,

I am going to assume you have plenty of experience with firearms and that you can agree that this apllies to ALL FIREARMS....driving cars, a machine shop operator, heacy machinery operator, etc..

Also, please state ONE instance that a firearm fired itself? The N in ND stands for NEGLIGENT, which can only apply to the user, not the tool itself...:scrutiny:

MaceWindu

esheato
October 10, 2004, 10:16 PM
I most certainly didn't intend for this thread to turn into a Glock hate fest. The type of gun was important, but it wasn't the sole contributing factor to the incident.

Sactown,

It must have happened after you left. I was pretty darn hungry when it happened...say around lunch, 12 or so.

Ed

SunBear
October 11, 2004, 12:19 AM
cxm: I'd love to see your data. I have no love for Glocks, but the ones I've handled were remarkably inanimate!!!! :neener:

Tharg
October 11, 2004, 01:42 AM
heheh- i don't own a glock and never will...

why?

Purely asthetic i assure you - they are ugly as sin! <snicker>

all that being said - what i HAVE read tells me that the lil trigger sticky outtie thing is the only true sorta safety...

which if yer follerin the rules doesn't matter anyway cause yer finger shouldn't be on the trigger if you don't intend for the gun to go off.

I CAN underSTAND why someone might be more critical of a gun that doesn't have a safety you can turn on as a part of your handling of a gun. It has been drilled in my head since age very small that the safety was the last thing to go "off" before my "finger came to the trigger". IE - saftey off - then think about shooting something. (and after yer done shooting at that something - safety on)

HowEVER, I would be hard pressed to find anyone that considers themselves an expert to say that ANY safety is 100% - so you aren't to rely on them for "safety" you are to rely on the four rules... (which should cut down on the I'm sorry i blew my best friend away but i thought it was safed" arguments...) (omg - and the "it was accidental not negligent" arguments to follow that... rofl rofl)

Far as i can tell there are two camps on safety's... the one camp that says that in a real incident w/o propper training that makes it "normal" for you to disengage the active saftey you will inevitably end up taking a ghost shot at a BG and lowering you chances of survival, and the other side that says active safety's help defend against ND's and any responsible owner would have one on thier gun.

personally ... i like having active safety's... so two reasons i wouldn't own a glock - but there are others who are prolly more skilled/knowlegable than I that like the way a glock works =) Personally my FAVORITE safety is the safety on my mini-14 ranch rifle... turn it on - finger out of the trigger guard - turn it off push yer finger forward and back till you shoot... always seemed the most ergonomic to me =)

J/Tharg!

twency
October 11, 2004, 07:56 AM
We can, still, agree to disagree, though, without any name calling.
Fair enough. The suggestion that you were "trolling" was a bit strong, and I apologize for my ad hominem attack. I don't think you were actually trying to bait Glock owners, particularly given your ownership and use of Glocks.

That said, monkeying around with any gun, fumbling with a pocketknife, trying to cut a zip tie off, while the thing is loaded, is a recipe for disaster. If it had been some kind of revolver without a safety, the same might have happened. If it had been a gun with a safety, the guy might not have set it properly, or might have bumped it off, just as he apparently bumped the trigger. Active, mechanical safeties are not a panacea. Glocks are not animate objects liable to pull their own trigger. The fact that the guy had a baby Glock only proves that he has good taste in subcompact autoloaders (IMHO), even if he has lousy gun-handling skills. :)

-twency
______________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

cxm
October 11, 2004, 08:03 AM
To reply to your questions, first the relative danger of Glocks is not only based on empirical data, but on simple logic.

One needs only examine the design of the Glock as it is sold in the United States to realize it is not a forgiving design... a finger on the trigger is a ND ready to happen... the one and only safety is on the trigger... if the operator makes a single error... BANG!!!

On the evidence front when I started teaching shooting, the issue of NDs became of interest... and I observed with some interest the NDs involving police and others as reported in the media. Of those I have noted (a significant proportion of which were in N. Texas) ALL, every one involved a Glock. A coincidence? I think not... statistics would indicate there should have been some SIGs, Berettas, 1911s etc. Such is not the case. In this time period I am only aware of one ND with a 1911 and that was a gun smith at a gun show. Unfortunately, in the police NDs people died.

Now, couple that with the fact that to sell their product in Europe, Glock developed and installed thumb safeties on guns made for several contracts... at very little cost.

Consider the actions that have to be taken to have a ND in a 1911. Grip safety must be depressed, thumb safety released and then the trigger released... finally BANG! Contrast that to the Glock... simply pull the trigger and BANG!!

You are quite right guns don't shoot themselves, and guns that fire from mechanical defects are called "ACCIDENTIAL DISCHARGES." Unfortunately, in the case of Glock the defect is one of design, not a mechanical one... a defect that could easily be improved upon.

Glock of course is stuck between lawyers and safety. If they start installing they open themselves to major law suits... and while they don't install the safety they have on many European guns people are shot.

Now, I would invite you to note I said in the hands of well trained personnel Glock might be ok, but not many who use Glocks are so trained... it is uncommon among the populace in general and very uncommon among cops.

Res ipso loquiter.

Chuck


cxm,

I am going to assume you have plenty of experience with firearms and that you can agree that this apllies to ALL FIREARMS....driving cars, a machine shop operator, heacy machinery operator, etc..

Also, please state ONE instance that a firearm fired itself? The N in ND stands for NEGLIGENT, which can only apply to the user, not the tool itself...

MaceWindu

Burt Blade
October 11, 2004, 10:44 AM
Finger on the trigger = firearm discharges

Sounds like a well-engineered design to me! It has worked on revolvers for over a century. People who rely on a manual safety to prevent the gun from firing despite pressure on the trigger are just _asking_ for a loud surprise.

Anyone remember the rule? Keep your finger off the trigger until your weapon is pointed at your intended target.

If you follow that rule alone, you can elimiante 99+% of negligent discharges.

The usual statement: "I dont know how it happened! It just went off!"

The reality: "You pulled the trigger, idiot."

cslinger
October 11, 2004, 10:52 AM
The only thing that I think is "poorly" engineered about the Glock is the whole pull the trigger to field strip routine. I don't like that one bit.

But like everybody else said keep your finger off the trigger, keep it in a holster and don't point it at anything you don't want to kill or destroy and you should be fine.

I am not a Glock fan and I agree that they are less idiot resistent then other makes but is that the Gun's fault or the idiot......I lean towards the idiot.

I like SIGs and they only have passive safeties as well. The double action is much heavier then a Glock but I still have to follow the basic rules listed above.

The day guns are no longer dangerous is the day guns are no longer effective.

I think all this BS with zip ties and checking guns does more harm than just leaving them holstered and not touching them.

Chris

45R
October 11, 2004, 12:11 PM
There was also a nice and shiny badge right in front of that holster.

Not anymore.......:fire:

ctdonath
October 11, 2004, 12:39 PM
cxm,
I'd say that your reasoning is backwards PRECISELY because the Glock has no safety - Glock owners are more-than-most keenly aware that trigger=boom, so they are more conscious of Rule #3. Others are more likely to have this nagging subconcious mental block "the safety is on so it's ok" without checking, and slacking on Rule #3.
Without more actual evidence, either view (Glock is/isn't more prone to ND) is equally valid.

My only AD was from releasing a malfunctioning safety. Funny, that wasn't a Glock. Guess which I prefer as safer.

ctdonath
October 11, 2004, 12:46 PM
Consider the actions that have to be taken to have a ND in a 1911. Grip safety must be depressed, thumb safety released and then the trigger released... finally BANG! Contrast that to the Glock... simply pull the trigger and BANG!!

How are you holding the Glock in this case - by the barrel? ;)

Grip safety on a 1911, trigger safety on a Glock - what's the difference really? both are released without deliberate effort. In either case you could conceivably try to fire it without releasing the safety, but practically speaking it's like the safety doesn't exist on either.

The only difference is the thumb safety on the 1911. How many NDs were followed by "but the safety was on!"?

cxm
October 11, 2004, 02:36 PM
Watch the news for your self... see what brand has the NDs. You decide after watching.

Locally we have had 5 NDs three of which resulted in deaths and all were L.E operators.

Want to guess the brand of gun??

Glock needs to face the fact they already recognize in Europe... they need a thumb safety.

Chuck

I'd say that your reasoning is backwards PRECISELY because the Glock has no safety - Glock owners are more-than-most keenly aware that trigger=boom, so they are more conscious of Rule #3. Others are more likely to have this nagging subconcious mental block "the safety is on so it's ok" without checking, and slacking on Rule #3.
Without more actual evidence, either view (Glock is/isn't more prone to ND) is equally valid.

Nickotym
October 11, 2004, 02:48 PM
There was also a nice and shiny badge right in front of that holster.

This could have been one of those infamous CCW badges being carried by someone who felt that he didn't need to follow the rules since he was such a stud he got a CCW. Too bad he doesn't know how we make fun of the CCW badges and those who wear them.


If it was a CCWer you will hear about it, if it was a cop you won't hear a word in the press.

larry_minn
October 11, 2004, 02:51 PM
Statistics are so much fun. Anyone can claim anything and if they look hard enought/fudge number prove whatever they want.
For starters lets ask a few questions. You say most LEO NDs are with Glocks......... Dumb question what is most common gun LEO's carry? Could that be a GLOCK? How much time is spent to transition Officers from (I realize this is dated) say a revolver to GLock? IIRC most were less then 4hrs for entire deptments and they spent most of time on how gun works/holster selection.
SO OFficers use to LONG 15+lb trigger pull and switch to shorter@6lb pull. Yep guns fault. Grip safety wouldn't help. IMO only helpful if you are looking down barrel to see if its loaded and pull the trigger.
I recall one trainer who would take a Baretta M9 type gun and (pretend) to load a live rd to someone who demands drop safety and offers them $5-10 if he can point the gun at their knee and decock the gun 10x. (after mentioing the To be fair VERY few cases where guns have actually gone off) Nobody would take his money.
I still have my 1911. Carried it short while and not comfortable with cocked/locked. Went with S&W DA/SA auto. Now Glock. I never carried the S&W with safety on and know few who did. Just used it as decocker.

WT
October 11, 2004, 03:56 PM
I agree with cxm's opinion on Glocks. They are less forgiving than other pistols.

Some may remember The Washington Post stories back in November 1999 dealing with the many negligent/accidental/unintentional bangs that Washington PD had. Something like 100 in a short period of time.

Blame it on the training or the IQ of the officer, phase of the moon or whatever, the Glock could be made better if it incorporated a thumb safety ala' 1911.

Tim L
October 11, 2004, 04:26 PM
Hmm, wonder what holster (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86189&highlight=holster+recall) he was using. The ND could have been caused by something other than his finger, knife, or tie wrap. In a situation like this the trigger safety wouldn't work.

LightningLink
October 11, 2004, 04:52 PM
The story is that he had a zip-tie around his gun (I'm not sure where or why it was loaded and zip-tied) and that he went to cut it off with a pocketknife. I don't know if he hit the trigger with the knife or if something else occurred.

How can someone zip-tie a loaded gun? Not only a Glock, but any loaded gun?

I've always seen them zip-tied one of two ways:

1) Pistol is cleared, zip-tie is run through the barrel and out the ejection port. Result: cannot possibly chamber a round.

2) Pistol is cleared, trigger is pulled & held and the trigger is zip-tied back against the frame (or as far as it can travel). Result: although a round could be chambered, the disconnector should prevent any sort of firing until the trigger is reset.

This isn't meant to question the authenticity of the story, I'm more curious if it's actually possible to zip-tie a loaded pistol. Maybe something with an exposed hammer, could be decocked while chambered, but then you'd still have to do a long DA pull or cock the thing before you could fire.

:confused: LL :confused:

c_yeager
October 11, 2004, 09:11 PM
I think the high rate of Glock NDs has a lot more to do with WHO is issued Glocks rather than the actual pistol itself.

In other words if every cop in the country was issued Model 19 wheelies then the SW MDL 19 would have the highest rate of NDs in this country. There are just simply more Glocks in more (dubiously trained) people's hands than any other gun in production.

Case in point, the idiot in the story at the start of this thread was a walking accident with ANY firearm. It happened to be a Glock because thats what this idiot was given to carry. A guy this dense could just as easily have managed to screw up with ANY model of firearm.

esheato
October 11, 2004, 09:24 PM
The badge was distinctly in a star shape. I'm not up on badges, but I believe he was an officer of the law. The holster appeared to be black and of a belt slide configuration.

Ed

Psssniper
October 11, 2004, 09:30 PM
"Needless to say, we left right after that. "

Why??

stevelyn
October 11, 2004, 09:54 PM
NDs with Glocks are due to the design flaw between the ears of the shooter rather than the pistol. Let's not forget the "finger off the trigger" rule and whose responsibility it is to obey it.

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