Neighbors beating on my door....


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Rembrandt
October 9, 2004, 11:04 PM
....anarchy in the streets, people being raped and plundered, mass looting, buildings on fire....your liberal neighbor who has anti-gun political signs in his yard is beating on your door asking to borrow a gun....

...do you make him buy an NRA membership before loaning the gun?
...tell him to take a hike, go ask his antigun politican for help?
...have him fill out a form, and wait 5 days?
...team up, letting him be your spotter against bad guys?

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cslinger
October 9, 2004, 11:10 PM
If you are a half decent person you don't let somebody die in the streets just because they have a different view then you. You do the right thing.

Chris

Harry Tuttle
October 9, 2004, 11:11 PM
Then someone bad takes the gun from his corpse and continues down the street towards your house...

a gun is not a get out of trouble free card

They require training and using one on a looter has long term repercussions

especially when he shoots above the crowds head like on TV, and kills the neighbors kid hiding in the tree house

Zundfolge
October 9, 2004, 11:12 PM
I tell him no, but if he has a family they (and he) are welcome to hide in our basement as long as they bring enough supplies for themselves and agree to follow orders.

Nanook
October 9, 2004, 11:13 PM
I know it's a hypothetical situation, but I'd probably have a hard time helping someone of that description. Just the thought of the things some Liberals have tried to do over the years makes my blood boil.

I'm afraid I'd gently close the door after telling him to go away. And then watch my back. Especially after things settled down...

Just my two cents.

boofus
October 9, 2004, 11:29 PM
No way. As owner of those guns you're responsible for those badboys and if he borrows one and goes out and does something stupid (like accidentally shooting the national guard or police trying to restore order) you catch the flak. Not to mention he will have zero training and familiarity with your weapons which will increase the chances of an accident.

If they aren't responsible enough to have their own guns, they aren't responsible enough to borrow mine.

RevDisk
October 9, 2004, 11:39 PM
I'd offer for him and his family to join my residence, but I wouldn't hand over a gun for him to take with him. If they came over, I'd hand him a shotgun with a laser attachment. "Put the dot in the center, pull the trigger." Even an anti can't miss at short ranges.

I might ask the guy beforehand "After this is over, will you be voting pro-gun?"

Valkman
October 9, 2004, 11:41 PM
Maybe the last choice, but I'm not giving a gun to anyone I haven't shot with already, and that means my wife, son-in-law and friend Rick so far. The neighbor is a cop though, guess I could give him one. :)

magsnubby
October 9, 2004, 11:43 PM
I would look him stright in the eye and say "Screw you buddy" then slam the door in his face.

Why should i give a rat crap about someone who didn't care enough about his family to take steps to ensure they're safety?

Cold hearted? Maybe so. But i would need every weapon i had to take care of me and my own.

RavenVT100
October 10, 2004, 12:01 AM
I'd hand him the cordless and provide both Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein's office phone numbers. They both carry guns, and since they care so much about the common good, they'll be sure to help.

EvilOmega
October 10, 2004, 12:12 AM
For the strong to survive the week must die. Those who choose not to fight are just wasting recourses for those who do. It's cold, but it's right. If you give him a weapon you disarm yourself to a degree and a coward with a weapon is more useless than a coward without. If you let him into you home you give yourself a liability. Just remember that your life and the lives of your friends and family are more important than his, beaus you tack the effort to defend yourself. He made his bed, don't make the mistake off lying in it with him out of pity. Pitty those who would fight and can't, dispise those who can fight and don't.

And just so this post isn't to dark, you could always ask how cute his daughter is.
:neener:

jefnvk
October 10, 2004, 12:21 AM
'A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency for me' - someone I know

Standing Wolf
October 10, 2004, 12:32 AM
Nope. People who seek to turn me into a serf can learn to live with the consequences of their tyrannical attitudes. I'll stand with the people who've fought for freedom.

444
October 10, 2004, 12:41 AM
I would unleash the hound.


And not lose a moment's sleep over it. No matter what happened to him.

geekWithA.45
October 10, 2004, 01:13 AM
After I recovered from my laughing fit, I'd do the decent thing: Hide his family in the basement, and teach him how to carry ammo and load mags for me.

patent
October 10, 2004, 01:15 AM
...team up, letting him be your spotter against bad guys?

This is the only one that's even close. No way I give a valuable gun to some idiot who doesn't know how to use it. He'll just make a bad situation worse, and I have to many neighbors who do know how to use guns and are reasonably pro-gun. I'd much rather arm them if needed.

If the guy has some skill that's valuable in the circumstances, and is trustworthy, I'll team up. If the only thing I know about him is that he has anti gun signs all over, and he is now panicking at my doorstop, then back out the door he goes. My first duty is to my family, and I'd very much expect a fellow like that only ads to the risk they face, rather then helping me protect them.

patent

roscoe
October 10, 2004, 01:30 AM
Shoot him and take his women.

BHPshooter
October 10, 2004, 01:30 AM
That's a tough one... the irony of someone who needs something from you that he's supported banning and confiscating is funny and nauseating at the same time.

I remember reading something Chuck Heston said about (I believe) the L.A. riots, where an associate of some type asked to borrow a gun to protect his family -- don't remember what kind of rifle anymore. Anyway, he said, "If you need a gun, then you need to go to the store, fill out the papers, and abide by the ten-day waiting period that you helped make into law."

I honestly can't say what I would do... but if he wanted to take one of my guns with him, the answer is, "No way." I'd rather have schoolchildren running around with gasoline in one hand and a burning torch in the other than let somebody loose with a gun that they don't have a clue how to use safely.

Wes

CannibalCrowley
October 10, 2004, 01:56 AM
I'd inform him that I'd be more than happy to teach him to shoot and pick out a weapon; but only after order has been restored. Until then he can suffer the consequences. If he dies it's because he spent years digging his own grave.

KRAUTGUNNER
October 10, 2004, 02:16 AM
I'd offer for him and his family to join my residence, but I wouldn't hand over a gun for him to take with him. If they came over, I'd hand him a shotgun with a laser attachment. "Put the dot in the center, pull the trigger." Even an anti can't miss at short ranges.

I'd act just like RevDisk!

After the riots are dealt with, I'd tell him to become an NRA Lifer or else I'll shoot that SOB myself!

one45auto
October 10, 2004, 02:37 AM
Ideally I'd like to think that I'd take the high road, I really would, but in all reality I'd be more likely to tell him to go have intercourse with himself before closing the door. In my view it is morally contemptible to arm an individual who'd spent years supporting efforts to disarm you. As I'd see it, since he had taken such care to make his bed it's only fair that I give him the opportunity to lie in it.

Besides, in all likelyhood he'd be right back to his old habits the moment things calmed down ~ perhaps even more so, since he would have been thoroughly frightened by the threat of the bad guys' guns. :rolleyes:

Preacherman
October 10, 2004, 02:43 AM
No way. You are legally and morally responsible for what is done with your guns (I'm not talking about theft, of course, but while they're under your control). If you voluntarily give one or more of your guns to someone untrained in their use, with no idea of what constitutes a legally justifiable use of deadly force, you've just put yourself in legal jeopardy. I'd let him bring his family over (with enough food, clothing, etc. to support themselves, and hopefully some extra for my family to use, or for barter), and he and his could load and spot for me, but NO WAY is he getting one of my guns! :fire:

schromf
October 10, 2004, 02:52 AM
Well he is a nieghbor so I guess it would depend on if he PO'd me in the past and I hated his guts or I liked him ( or members of the family ).

If he was in the first catagory I would add a sign to his collection in the front yard, saying something like: the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is here in an unarmed house.

If he fell into the second catagory, I would provide help, and shelter. I won't being arming a idiot though, he is qualified to keep the magazines full and make sure I don't run out of ammo. Anything more is a waste of ammo in my view.

The odds are he would fall in the 2nd category, I get along with all my nieghbors, oh well there goes my sign making project.

Fortunately I live in a very rural setting and the odds of it happening in my nieghborhood take the already very remote possibilty even slimer. Course two of my nieghbors are Highway Patrol and I don't think either of them is going to need any help, that only leaves two nieghbors in a country mile, and I know the Marine Corps gunny sergent can handle his own. Come to think of it our nieghborhood is not a good place to have anarchy in our counrty roads, and my guess is I couldn't find a anti gun nut for a least a mile or two, and my guess 90% of my nieghbors are already prepared.

I guess you folks in the cities and suburbs have different problems, but in the event it ever happens I would suggest armed nieghborhood watch forces. You would be much stronger with numbers and organisation on your side.

BluesBear
October 10, 2004, 03:33 AM
The neighbor and his family would be more than welcome to bring all the food and supplied they can carry and take refuge in my home.
But they will do exactly as I say no exceptions.

After all I will probably need someone to help keep watch.
and cook,
and assist the wounded,
and load magazines,
Perhaps if any one of them seem to be "qualified to play putt-puttâ„¢" they can shut-up sit-still and guard the back door with the Coach Gun.


Let's face it, if the man (or woman) wasn't already prepared to protect his/her family, giving them a gun won't really change anything.
THere really is safety in numbers and having them double up with me and mine increases the odds of survival of us all.

However if they put ANY of MY family in jeopardy... their butts will be put in the street to fend for themselves.

cracked butt
October 10, 2004, 03:39 AM
I have enough rifles and ammo to outfit everyone on my street, but I would only lend stuff out to people who are current gun owners who, because of circumstances, find themselves low on ammo.

Would you lend your truck to a neighbor who doesn't like automobiles, has never owned one, but suddenly has a need for one to move some furniture?:scrutiny:

team up, letting him be your spotter against bad guys?

That would be the only option.

I do have some neighbors who are good friends of our family that don't own guns that would be more than welcome to stay at my place. Most of my neighbors at least own a hunting rifle, a shotgun, or both. I think that in my town, or at least in my neighborhood, the people who don't own firearms will benifit indirectly from the vast majority that do.

Ryder
October 10, 2004, 03:52 AM
Once I make the decision to hole-up I'd not feel obligated open my door to a stranger. I may provide refuge to others but such a person as described in this scenario should not be allowed close enough to beat on my door. :scrutiny:

Possessions become more valuable as the difficulty of replacing them increases. Last I heard guns don't grow on trees. I think they're keepers.

c_yeager
October 10, 2004, 04:07 AM
If he is a decent guy that i know enough to trust then he and his family are more than welcome to team up with me. (Being single and not having a family to watchout for I wouldnt mind having a few extra people around since i could always just leave on my own). I would gladly teach him ow to use a rifle at the first available opportunity. An extra rifle with noone to shoot it doesnt do me any good anyhow.

No way in hell do i hand him one and send him on his way though. If he wants to provide mutual support with ME then its all good. but, in a situation like that rifles become more valuable than gold (especially in a liberal Mecca like Seattle where few people have them).

WhoKnowsWho
October 10, 2004, 05:49 AM
High stress situation + new shooter? No thanks, he can be the spotter.

itgoesboom
October 10, 2004, 12:47 PM
I agree with most of the posters here. No way I would give up one of my firearms for some moron who doesn't know how to shoot. Sounds like a waste a firearm and ammo.

In fact, if the person was a dyed in the wool liberal banner, I would probably turn him away, unless their was a good reason to keep him around, like if he is a doctor.

If I let him in, he could load and spot for me, but he better bring his own food and water and other supplies.

No way I am giving up the supplies I have stockpiled for someone who never thought ahead.

I.G.B.

Kim
October 10, 2004, 01:04 PM
I'd give his a sign that says "I wish I had remembered the ALAMO" and let him go protest in the street.:evil:

DougCxx
October 10, 2004, 01:31 PM
I would turn them away empty-handed, "consequences of one's decisions" and all that.

If his family gets harmed because he was unable to protect them, that's his fault, not mine.
~

Edward429451
October 10, 2004, 01:37 PM
A lot of this is situational. Is he single, no family? Probably not, he could turn on you with a gun and bring the whole house down. Does he have something to lose, i.e., have family with him, then probably yes. I too would have a hard time turning someone away to almost certainly die in the street, no matter his political affiliation. You're talking shtf, anarchy...all bets are off then, liability be damned. The liability at that point is staying alive and someone else to take a shift on watch, or cover a side of the house or cook or load or learn or whatever would be an asset.

To turn somkeone away to die at that point would be to lower myself to the level of what they were, not what I want to be. Bad form for those who are pro America and these are human beings with families just like us.

So they were (misguided) anti's before. So what? He & his family are at the door asking for help and I'm in a position to be able to help them. Are we high road during peacetime and low road during crises? I would hope not.

I say do unto your neighbor as you would have them do unto you.

pluvo
October 10, 2004, 01:45 PM
I saw this episode of the Twilight Zone...twice.

The Monsters are Due on Maple Street (1960) (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-237/epid-12606/)

The Monsters Are on Maple Street (2003) (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-9534/epid-228680/)

I'm a firm believer that high fences (and razor wire) make for good neighbors. :evil:

jwmoore
October 10, 2004, 01:56 PM
I'm sure if your neighbor just gives the bad guys what they want, he and his family won't be hurt....

:evil:

~W

kudu
October 10, 2004, 02:02 PM
...team up, letting him be your spotter against bad guys?

As you shoot your first bad guy, and he says "You really didn't have to kill him did you? You could of just winged him and that would of been good enough." :scrutiny:

chetth
October 10, 2004, 02:13 PM
So they were (misguided) anti's before. So what? He & his family are at the door asking for help and I'm in a position to be able to help them. Are we high road during peacetime and low road during crises? I would hope not.

I say do unto your neighbor as you would have them do unto you.

These are the people who were 'doing to me' by trying to take away my ability to defend myself (and indirectly, them). Did they bring food? Fuel? Something else useful? Doubtful. They are still looking for someone else to take care of them.

Sorry, I'm busy....

JohnKSa
October 10, 2004, 02:15 PM
There have been a lot of these type of threads:The apocalypse/riots are upon us your neighbor/friend/distant relatives need guns/ammunition do you give it to themI'm waiting for a thread that asks this question:As a person who plans ahead and feels the necessity to help neighbors and friends, how many guns and how much ammunition are YOU storing in preparation for a possible lapse (temporary or otherwise) in the normal state of society so that you will be able to hand them out to those who need them.If a person really believes that they must attempt to help those who ask for the help, then they must plan now to deal with this projected drag on their resources.

Personally? My preparedness is not my neighbor's windfall.

Edward429451
October 10, 2004, 02:23 PM
<These are the people who were 'doing to me' by trying to take away my ability to defend myself (and indirectly, them). Did they bring food? Fuel? Something else useful? Doubtful. They are still looking for someone else to take care of them.>

Again, highly situational. It's not carved in stone that I'd either let them in or turn them away.

And yes, I've a extra gunr two that's slated for someone elses hand that will undoubtably show up. Or if not, could be used an an extra fast reload near a window or whatever.

Kim
October 10, 2004, 02:37 PM
I just got finished watching the God, The Bad and the Ugly again. Maybe I'd let him sit in the basement with firearm with one load. If I loose upstairs he has the choice of taking care of the next bad guy that makes it to the basemant or talking himself out first or doing nothing. He will still be left with his moral choice of choosing to fight or die. He will have to choose to use the firearm he has hated or not.

ALS
October 10, 2004, 03:45 PM
I'd have no problem telling him to go as said before and have intercoarse with himself. On the other hand if he had young kids and a wife I would be willing to take them in and do my best to protect them. He on the other hand, he can go home and hope his political views and the government would protect him and his house.
Give or lend him a gun no way. The way these people think, that gun may be used against me.

0007
October 10, 2004, 03:49 PM
Ask him who he voted for in the last election?

Ex-MA Hole
October 10, 2004, 04:16 PM
I'd politely remind him that firearms are bad and should be outlawed.

I'd watch him squirm.

Then I'd let him in.

I'm not really planning on giving up my arms. Ever. No matter what reason. I'd protect, as this is why I have them. But not surrender, which is technically what he is asking.

Chris Rhines
October 10, 2004, 05:11 PM
I'd close the door and lock it.

In the situation described, I've got more than enough to handle taking care of me and mine.

- Chris

444
October 10, 2004, 05:12 PM
I see this as Darwin at work.
He made a conscious decision to not only not prepare himself, he made a conscious effort to take away my freedom and my ability to protect myself. I have nothing against helping people in need, but not my enemies.
Right now, he isn't worried about me. He is on top. This is his world. He is doing what he can to screw me.
In the situation you mention, I am now on top. This is my world. I am going to follow the golden rule: I am going to do unto others as he did to me. He can accept the consequenses of his actions just like I have to do now.

By the way, this isn't some fantasy situation.
During some of the "riot" following events such as the Rodney King decision, hundreds if not thousands of **********ns came here to Nevada to buy arms. They were shocked to find out that they couldn't just come here and buy anything they wanted. They already found out they couldn't buy it in **********.

fistful
October 10, 2004, 06:45 PM
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Doesn't matter what they have done to you in the past, the only right thing to do is to take care of your family and then take care of your neighbor as best you can. I wouldn't loan the guy a gun either, if he didn't know how to use one, but some peoples' attitudes in this thread are sickening and disappointing, and I hope some of you don't live in my neighborhood.

444
October 10, 2004, 06:57 PM
"some peoples' attitudes in this thread are sickening and disappointing"

It isn't just my attitude: I am sickening and disappointing in general.

foghornl
October 10, 2004, 06:59 PM
He (they) become the food preparer, BG spotter, ammo carrier, mag reloader, etc.

With my luck , if i gave the guy a weapon, he would probably shoot me in the back.

Baba Louie
October 10, 2004, 07:25 PM
Lessee,
2 sayings come to mind (actually more than 2 but this IS tHR)
Love yer neighbor as you love yerself...
God helps those who help themselves...

But him waiting until the Crackhead Mutant Grizzly Zombie Bikers are coming up the street sure isn't a good time to be going over the 4 rules, sight picture, trigger squeeze, what have ya, now is it?

Life can be so unfair at times... ;)

Having said all that, most of my neighbors are Mormon or Mexican and I'd hate to be the Mutant Mobsters coming up our street cause these guys can take care of themselves and each other pretty well. But being the eternal Boy Scout... I'd probably let him and his in for the duration, knowing darn good and well that once the fan stops flinging poo, he'd probably go right back to his old ways... maybe.

What was Kurt Russel's line during the 92 Rodney King riots when his liberal friends asked about him helping them out? :D "They're all being used right now" or somesuch?

jobu07
October 10, 2004, 07:31 PM
So if he hasn't had the foresite, like most of us, to amass and supply ourselves for some sort of situation, some would let them pass on. Others would send them on due to thier possible political views.

I'm curious, if say, the person never had a desire to collect or amass or even use firearms, but was say, a conservative in politcal view and even donated money to the NRA or the GOA, would they be welcome then? Not that we could know that they were contributors, but still, they might be ideoligcally akin.

Mulliga
October 10, 2004, 07:36 PM
I'm not that religious a person, but I think this is appropriate:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for an eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

Matthew 5:38-5:42

The human thing to do would be to turn the anti away. The divine thing to do would be to take him or her in.

Of course, I'd probably tell the anti to hit the road. :neener: :evil:

DRZinn
October 10, 2004, 07:59 PM
I get: a spotter, cook, loader, janitor, and all-around gopher.
You get: your life spared.

Deal?

grislyatoms
October 10, 2004, 08:07 PM
Sticky question.

Certainly, I would not hand a gun to someone with no experience.

If I invite them in and allow them to consume my resources, I may be cutting my own throat and those of my family.

If I turn them away, I have to live with the moral consequences.

My duty is to my family and no one else.

I will leave it at that.

Edward429451
October 10, 2004, 08:08 PM
I see where 444's coming from, and certainly respect his right to his own MO for his home during shtf or anyone anytime for that matter....but it could be argued that ultimately the anti neighbor may or may not have been being an anti consciously. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and with all the preoccupations in life, it may be reasonable to assume that the guy just didn't know any better. You can't really expect someone to know something that they've never been taught. If this is true of the guy at the door, a most perfect situation exists to make him your friend and ally. If he proves different, then of course he's either dead or out the door. But to pass up a chance to give help to another human being under dire circumstances would be a failure of humaness somehow, at least in my opinion. Turning away or killing BG's is fine and if appropriate, I'd not hesitate to take action but I don't think people should let fear of what could 'potentially' happen stop them from helping a neighbor in need.

I'd think that being a paramedic you'd see it slightly different than you do, but, touche', opinions differ sometimes.

:)

444
October 10, 2004, 08:11 PM
"Turning away or killing BG's is fine and if appropriate"

I think this is where we are having a communication break down. I consider antis to be BGs. They are actively working to take away my rights. They are actively working to undermine my ability to defend myself.
If through their efforts I am disarmed and am later killed, I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and them killing me with their own hand.

goalie
October 10, 2004, 08:22 PM
I'd think that being a paramedic you'd see it slightly different than you do, but, touche', opinions differ sometimes

If someone chooses not only to not be prepared for something bad that might happen, but actively works to keep you from being prepared as well, there is absolutely no moral obligation to help that person when the defecation hits the oscillation, and my being an RN has no bearing on that whatsoever.

Let's look at a similar example: your neighbor hates rambler style houses. He lives in a colonial style, and works actively through the politica process to make the home you live in illegal. One day his house burns down. Are you obligated to take him into your home, you know, the one that he/she/they actively worked to take away from you?!?!?! On top of that, you have someone who is obviously not good at decision making and/or critical thinking. People like that have somewhere to be when the SHTF, and it is not anywhere near me or my family.

JohnKSa
October 10, 2004, 09:34 PM
All right, if we're going to start quoting scripture we should cover all the bases.

This isn't just a matter of doing unto others as you'd have done unto you. It's not just a matter of forgiveness, it's not simply a matter of loving your neighbor as yourself or of helping someone in need.

The issue is that they had the ability to prepare just as you did and yet they didn't. The bible says that he who does not work shall not eat--THAT's the principle that applies here.

Read the parable of the lamp oil in Matthew 25 for a further example of what a dim view scripture takes towards those who do not properly prepare. Those who do not prepare are called "foolish" and are rightly left to suffer the consequences of their lack of preparation.

There is a big difference between a lack of preparation and legitimately falling into misfortune.

That doesn't mean that you CAN'T help, but it's clear that those who don't prepare can, in good conscience, be left to suffer the consequences of their own lack of preparation. That applies especially if it means that you or those for whom you are responsible may suffer as a result of your assistance to the unprepared. In fact, the implication is that if a prepared person helps those who don't prepare to the point of his own detriment, he is as foolish as those who don't prepare in the first place.

Thats just if they FAIL to prepare. If they've actually been actively dissuading or hindering others who are trying to prepare then I don't see anything at all that should make a person feel guilty for turning them away.

Ryder
October 10, 2004, 09:59 PM
do unto your neighbor as you would have them do unto you

That's a perfectly good a justification for refusing the guy in my opinion. I pride myself on self sufficiency under any and all circumstances. I do not go around begging others to solve my problems. Least of all ones I have created for myself.

The only card a socialist parasite such as this will ever have to play is pity and guilt. How many of you disgusted types still want to give Sarah Brady everything she wants after all these years?

Good post JohnKSa.

Gunpacker
October 10, 2004, 10:02 PM
Well, assuming it would be to my benefit to gather other armed compatriots together for mutual defense, I would do the thing in my best interest. I would SELL him a gun. Maybe a Turk mauser and a bandolier for the price demanded by the situation. Think maybe it would require the title to his SUV. Then he would be able to participate as a gun owner in the defense of his family and mine. You can't defend your own family well with only a couple of adults. Need a group, so that shifts of watch can be employed. Otherwise, tell him to take a hike and get someone else. There will be plenty of other folks looking to make a defense.

Desert Dog
October 10, 2004, 10:50 PM
In the remote chance of this scenario happening, since almost all of my neighbors are conservative RKBA types, I would "trade" one of my old single shot .22's and a box of 50 cartridges for something of his that I needed at the time. At no time would I allow him into my home, nor would I offer any other assistance because in this scenario there would not be enough supplies for me to give him any other assistance.

I thank god all of my neighbors are of the conservative fold and all own their self-defense. I would not hesitate to help any of them because we would all be working together anyway...

joab
October 10, 2004, 11:01 PM
I have to support Edward429451 on this one. There are three rules that I try to live by.
#1) taught to me by my grandfather- "It is the duty of the strong to potect the weak"
If he has a family or has simply bought into the the Brady lie I could not turn him away when I have more than enough guns. Food or supplies would be another matter.
#2) taught to me by my wifes grandmother_
I know what I must do to be the person I want to be. What you do is of no consequence , only my reaction to your actions matter.
I could not feel good about denying help to someone just because they did not believe or act as I do

#3) is one that I try to teach my kids
Before you do anything to a person stop for a second and ask your self "How would I feel if this was done to or for me"?
You'd be surprised at how many birds don't get flipped in traffic and how many Go To Hells don't get said. If they flip me off or cuss me I refer back to #2


The poster mantion anarchy so the rules are different now.
I live in Fla so the rules are different anyway
I can transfer a gun anyway I see fit with very limited requirements so there would be no real liability legaly and morally any liability would be much less than turning my back when I have the means to help

Theres almost no way I would let him hole up with me. Two alpha males with no clear chain of command could be a disaster waiting to happen. (Dawn of the Dead comes immediatly to mind) especially if one of them has never even considered the situation we now find ourselves in.

I don't need a cook cause I got MREs and grits

No use for a spotter or sentry cause I'd never get sleep anyway trying to keep an eye on him

Gary_P
October 10, 2004, 11:03 PM
if it is my neighbor, in my neighborhood. he wouldn't have to be knocking on the door. I would see him from the upstairs window the minute his foot hit my grass and he would hear a very loud articulate HALT WHO GOES THERE.. then I would recommend he and his family to refuge inside while he keeps an eye out with not a single gun of mine in his hands. perhaps a baseball bat or my baton, but a gun of mine, never.





Gary

GOT
October 10, 2004, 11:13 PM
Like was said already, I would be extremely hesitant in loaning such a powerful tool as a firearm to a person whom I didn't know what they were going to do. If they were my neighbor I might know a little about them.

I asked to borrow my bosses enormous Troy built rotor-tiller once. It was a monster. He wouldn't let me use it. I needed to till my back yard to put a garden in to grow food to eat. See where I'm going? But then he relented and gave me some training with that orange beast and I used it quite well (after getting a thorough whopping, and dragged all over the backyard by it!!!:( ).

I might be more inclined to tell that anti-goober to get behind my house while I defend him. I work hard at maintaining the concept that if I could help someone I would and will. If I am not able to help someone then I maintain the same thought, "that I would if I could". If I feel like my life of the lives of my family are threatened or are in immediate danger from helping the whack then I most likely would not help them. But then the Lord asks us to give up our lives for him. But I don't think that means willy-nilly neglect our own. And our neighbor might be own own???

Tough question. Perhaps I would get down on my knees and ask the Lord if the choice I would make in such a situation is right???

SunBear
October 11, 2004, 12:03 AM
I have PLENTY for MY family. They are my first, second and third priority. Everything gets filtered through that. Where do you draw the line? How many people do you take in/arm/feed. There will be a line outside your door. Unless the person has a very valuable skill (doctor, etc..) or a friend who can provide lots of their own food/ supplies, they are not entering our family stronghold ( which is several miles from my home, out in the country) Remember the ark. When the rain starts, the door is shut. Period.

MICHAEL T
October 11, 2004, 12:40 AM
I'd give him my mini Llama, it doesn't work most of time so he won't hurt anyone and if a BG gets it won't do him any good either.:D

Edward429451
October 11, 2004, 02:08 AM
This is a heck of a good thread. Very thought provoking. I feel the way I do and yet I can't find fault with how you guys in the flip side of the coin think. I can't argue with your logic. Well reasoned responses with very pertinent points have been made and makes me want to doublecheck my own thought processes. Wouldn't want to open the henhouse door for a fox. Wouldn't want to turn away someone in need either. There'd be a certain amount of risk involved no matter which decision was made. I gotta chew on this some more.

Notice that the biblical/spiritual aspect seems to support both sides of the issue? Tough one.:scrutiny:

Tharg
October 11, 2004, 02:36 AM
I'm not so sure...

if yer gonna go biblical... then you are obligated to help your fellow man, and if yer human (imo) its your obligation to help your fellow man. Hand him a gun and send him on his way? no way...

I'm a bit dissapointed in the low road being taken here. We are very HIGH road when we talk about converting someone - what is the best way to convert someone than a high stress defense or die situation? When it will (should) dawn on someone that if his neighbor did not have the means to protect his and his own... that they could very well have been VERY bad off... even tho he "used to think" that...

course - this quote from earlier in the thread looms at the back of my mind.....

Besides, in all likelyhood he'd be right back to his old habits the moment things calmed down ~ perhaps even more so, since he would have been thoroughly frightened by the threat of the bad guys' guns.

Because i know human nature... and once people are "safe" again - then they seek to find absolute "fixes" to things instead of realizing that the only absolute is absolute "zero".... and no human - govt. or otherwise can manage absolute zero.

So you ask me - if it was my neighbor... welllll i gotta go pretty far lookin for neighbors that aren't also family. So the gf's mom would be welcome - she's not a gun nut... but she don't know how to use em either that i know of - take shelter here. Then on the other hand is the gf's brother... whom i would trust with my life, her life, and anyone i know's life... heheh course - he wouldn't come knocking for weapons either... =)

There are some mexicans i've never met across the way... and the old guy down the field died last year... used to wave at him while he was walking up and down the oiltop...

Bah -but ok - assume city situation - you prolly know yer neighbors - seen em when they were mowing talked w/ em and such - when i used to live in the colony - the neighbor on my right let me know he was armed - and set his alarm for random times during the night to do a "recon" of his property ... armed.... he actually did catch one punk trying to do something at one point... i'm sure the punk's soiled britches sucked in the patrol car since he had him at gun point on his knee's when he called the cops. then on the other side were some old people i think i MIGHT have seen ONCE. Talked w/ a lil bit - exchanged niceties.... etc etc....

I would take both of em in... if only cause its the strong protecting the week and supporting someone else as strong... its a duty one takes when one arms one's self in my opine. if you want to be weak and turn em all away because of narrow mindedness or feelings of inadequacy to protect your own let alone someone elses... then i guess... but i'll try my damndest to help out other people. Even if they didnt' agree w/ me we are all still americans - and that is supposed to ... SUPPOSED to be something higher than chump change/i'll only deal w/ my homies BS.

Of course - all this is IMHO.... and we all have em... so don't take it too personally - but to turn someone away because they might have had different idea's than you is much like saying your fellow man is only your fellow man if they agree w/ you.

J/Tharg!

goon
October 11, 2004, 03:25 AM
I would remind him that it is more dangerous in my house than it is outside, what with all the high capacity magazines running about, spreading mayhem and death everywhere and what not... :D

I would do whatever I could to ensure that they were safe and even allow them to stay with me until things settled down, but I would not arm them. If it were the TEOTWAWKI scenario that we worry about, they could stay for a short period of time, but not indefinitely.

It takes a lot of practice to be able to handle a gun safely, and it takes a lot more to be able to use one instinctively. Aside from the fact that they would be a danger to themselves and everyone around them, a gun would still probably not do them any good.
A person who has been conditioned to be nonviolent and passive their whole life wouldn't be able to drop the hammer. They would hesitate and the "enemy" would then have another weapon at his disposal to use against me.

I will say though, that if that same neighbor got attacked before I could help him, well, I doubt I'd lose much sleep over it.

Helping would the the honorable thing to do, but.... hmmmm.... What is that quote?
Oh, yes...
"As ye reap, so shall ye sow."

RangerHAAF
October 11, 2004, 07:19 AM
Okay, I agree that we gun owners who have prepared ourselves for such a contingency should not be handing out guns to those who haven't; but what do we do with relatives who are anti-gun and come begging for protection when the wolf's at the door?

I have several neighbors who have never said if they are pro or anti-gun one way or the other but I have a couple of relatives who have said that they are afraid of guns, they ought to be banned, etc. Even though they are blood(more or less diluted) I've often thought of leaving them to their own devices. Since they trust in government so much, let the government take care of them.

redbone
October 11, 2004, 07:38 AM
Another consideration..... Where does it end? Most of us probably have more neighbors without guns than we have guns to provide. Got to stop the great gun giveaway at some point, even if you favor it to begin with.

Glad my closest neighbor is a retired US Army medic, Deset Storm vet. I'd just invite him and his family over. That means his in-laws from down the street would be included too. Now we've got six adults, and can probably watch our six pretty well. Pretty sure most of the rest of the neighborhood is armed as well. Guess we ought to be discussing ammo compatibility!

But, I digress, and it is a tough scenario if there were true antis involved.

Some good background reading is "The Rift". While it has its hokey moments, its an eye-opener in terms of possible SHTF scenarios.

RBH

spartacus2002
October 11, 2004, 08:06 AM
My fear would be that if I gave him a gun, he would stick it in my face and demand my other guns, all my ammo, and my wife. Or if he didn't do that, then after the chaos subsided he'd demand EVEN MORE gun control laws because the ones we have are OBVIOUSLY too weak to prevent crime.

Leopards don't change their spots very easily.

I don't trust people who want to disarm me and who enjoy the thought of me and my family being helpless in the face of adversity. I'd tell him to live with the consequences of the policies he wanted to foist on me, then I'd slam the door in his face. Darwin in action.

c_yeager
October 11, 2004, 08:58 AM
Notice that the biblical/spiritual aspect seems to support both sides of the issue? Tough one.

They so often do...

God help some of you if you ever encounter a problem that a firearm WON'T help you out of. Murphys law says that you will some day need something that your anti neighbor has that you dont. Hopefully he won't share many of your opinions on helping their neighbor.

Preacherman
October 11, 2004, 09:02 AM
c_yeager, with respect, I think you're missing the point. Many of us who've posted here have said we'd invite our neighbors into our home for protection, if necessary: but we wouldn't give them firearms unless they're trained and/or experienced in their use, particularly considering the potential legal consequences. I don't think this is being heartless or inconsiderate: we're doing the best we can in a bad situation.

cslinger
October 11, 2004, 09:37 AM
Ditto Preacherman.

I am not handing out firearms to any idiot that walks by, but I am not going to let somebody die in my front yard either. They are welcome in where they will be protected and also taught the use of firearms, and if necessary armed under our supervision.

My point is the right thing to do is to help.

Chris

BluesBear
October 11, 2004, 10:46 AM
To paraphrase an old adage...

There are no Bradyists in Foxholes.

HankB
October 11, 2004, 11:42 AM
. . . your liberal neighbor who has anti-gun political signs in his yard is beating on your door asking to borrow a gun.... In this hypothetical situation, someone so rabidly "anti" that he puts anti-gun signs in his yard is actively working to cause me harm . . . he has chosen to make himself my enemy in a very real sense . . . I won't initiate violence on him, but he will get no assistance from me.

I think it was during the LA riots that John Milius (director of Red Dawn ) was approached by some "anti" friends with requests to borrow a gun. He supposedly replied with something along the lines of "Sorry, they're all being used."

444
October 11, 2004, 11:44 AM
"God help some of you if you ever encounter a problem that a firearm WON'T help you out of."

I moved out of my parent's house over 20 years ago. Since that time, I would probably count the times on less than one hand that I have ever spoken to my neighbors at anywhere I ever lived. I have lived in my present home for about five years. I spoke to ONE of my neighbors twice (briefly) when he walked over to my yard when I was outside. I don't know any of my neighbor's names (first or last), and have never known any of my neighbor's names that I can remember.
What do you think the chances are of me going to one of my neighbors begging ?

R.H. Lee
October 11, 2004, 12:08 PM
Sure, I'd give him and his family sanctuary. The violence most probably would not last too long, and when it was over, I'd have an ally.

RustyHammer
October 11, 2004, 12:24 PM
:uhoh:

cslinger
October 11, 2004, 12:28 PM
Sure, I'd give him and his family sanctuary. The violence most probably would not last too long, and when it was over, I'd have an ally.

Yeah and if the violence dragged on and food ran low you could.....................I'm just kidding!!!!!:neener:

R.H. Lee
October 11, 2004, 12:31 PM
Actually, libs don't roast up too well, even in the crockpot. They're too tough and stringy and are only good for jerky. :p

moa
October 11, 2004, 12:42 PM
Something like this happened to my brother during the 1968 riots in Washington DC after Martin L. King was shot.

An aquaintance, a lawyer, called up my brother and wanted to borrow a gun. Cannot remember if my brother gave him a gun or not.

Anyway, the lawyer worked in the White House as a speech writer for Pres. Johnson.

stevelyn
October 11, 2004, 12:53 PM
I can't state my sentiments anymore eloquently than 444, Standing Wolf and EvilOmega. Lack of prior, proper, preparation on your part does not constitute a moral obligation on my part.
I would only add a parting comment about whizzing up a rope before slamming the door in his face.

HankB,
That was Kurt Russell.

SkyDaver
October 11, 2004, 01:31 PM
RedBone wrote:
"Some good background reading is "The Rift". While it has its hokey moments, its an eye-opener in terms of possible SHTF scenarios."

is this online, or a book. Link, or author's name?

I'll agree with a lot of folks here, this is a very thought provoking thread. Right now, I'm a little deficient in the long gun arena, but have some nearby friends with more long arms than they have people to lift them. We've discussed it, and they'd be willing to loan me one, if I haven't had a chance to stock up before then.

As far as a neighbor, I'd let nearly all of my current neighbors join me, but probably wouldn't let them have take a gun of mine.

If they were an active gun-grabber (as opposed to a fence sitter that had bought into the media line), I'd tell them to hit the road.

There is one person I know (not local to me) who I would have wait for a moment, while I printed up "Don't hurt me, I'm unarmed" sign for him to carry. Then I'd send him on his way. ;-)

mhdishere
October 11, 2004, 01:47 PM
Would I give him a gun? No way, I'd be too busy putting my own SHTF plans into operation to spend time teaching him how to use it.

Would I take him into my home? Probably, on a couple conditions, the first of which is that my word in my home is law. If he's not willing to do what I say, when I say it, no questions asked and no argument tolerated, then he's welcome. There will be at most one violation of this condition, and it will result in immediate ejection. He can take refuge in the safest place I can offer, if things calm down enough I'll give him a basic run-thru with a simple firearm (like a revolver) that he can use while he's here. Violation of safety rules with said weapon will result in its immediate confiscation as will unwillingness to use it if need be, I don't need me and mine shot by an ND, nor do I need said weapon taken from him because he didn't have the will to use it.

I wouldn't want to see anyone killed in such a situation if I had the ability to prevent it, but my first priority is me and mine. If he's willing to do his part in defense of my home in return for being defended in the process.

Richardson
October 11, 2004, 02:30 PM
My primary responsibility is to my family, so I won't willingly compromise that. If I'm holing up, I won't be giving away guns or ammunition unless it is to someone that I know and would trust with a gun during "normal times", and it was truly beyond what I'd be able to use.

But in my neighborhood, no-one knows that I have guns, and that's how I intend on keeping it. If neighbor came over asking "What are you going to do?", my response would depend on how well I knew them. If a friend or acquaintence who was not gun savy came by, and I trusted them, I'd probably ask them to go home get any food-stuffs, camping gear, fuel, etc, and come back, IF they would agree to submit to my absolute sovereignty in my home.

For you who have decided to simply say F()@& Y()* to everyone outside of your immediate family.... you sound like you've already decided that might makes right, and that there is no moral responsibility to your neighbor. My prayer is that you get mucho opportunity to kill each other off before things quiet down. I don't want you in my neighborhood now, during, or after the SHTF. When an armed gang comes to your door, your neighbors will be unable or rightfully unwilling, to help you. You have chosen the low road.

About the Bible supporting both sides... that's just wrong. The strong are to defend the weak. The verse saying "those who will not work, neither let them eat" is about chosen lazyness. It's true that believers are not to feed those whom they know are without food due solely to their lazyness. It's a LONG and baseless jump to the suggestion that this teaches "Tell your neighbor to F--- Off if they come to you in need."

Richardson

fistful
October 11, 2004, 02:58 PM
Thank you richardson.

It's interesting how some who want to "slam the door in his face" quote Darwin, and so many of the rest quote the Bible. It illustrates the difference between a survival-of-the-fittest mentality and Christianity, which demands love for our fellow man, even if he doesn't deserve it, just as the Christian God forgives us even though we don't deserve it.

Hallelua, y'all, that's good preachin'!:neener:

CannibalCrowley
October 11, 2004, 03:48 PM
Richardson you're disagreeing with yourself. You admit that your family is your primary resonsibility, yet you deride others who choose not to let a neighbor in who could endanger their family. Unless the person brings enough food, water, fuel, etc to support themselves for the entire time, they will be a burden. You and your family will be the ones who suffer the consequences of this and the positive side is likely to be mostly emotional. Say you've got a month worth of supplies for your family. Well, someone who believes guns are evil isn't likely to have stocked up for SHTF purposes. For the sake of ease, let's say they bring a weeks worth. Now instead of your family being able to last for a month, the two families have 2.5 weeks of supplies. Not a very good trade off if you ask me.

So it all settles down to whether or not you're willing to risk the lives and well-being of yourself and your family, to protect someone who chose not to prepare and attempted to hinder your ability to do so.About the Bible supporting both sides... that's just wrong. The bible can be used to justify almost anything.

R.H. Lee
October 11, 2004, 03:56 PM
I don't know what kind of "anarchy" y'all are describing that could go on for "months". "Months" of chaos isn't possible without a complete collapse of the U.S. society and economic system, which would plunge the world into the dark ages. We would be invaded by any of a number of foreign powers. In a situation like that you may survive for months, or even a few short and terrible years, but your number would soon be up.

c_yeager
October 11, 2004, 04:29 PM
c_yeager, with respect, I think you're missing the point. Many of us who've posted here have said we'd invite our neighbors into our home for protection, if necessary: but we wouldn't give them firearms unless they're trained and/or experienced in their use, particularly considering the potential legal consequences. I don't think this is being heartless or inconsiderate: we're doing the best we can in a bad situation.

And many of us DIDNT say that either. If you read my original post on this thread you will see that i responded with an almost identical suggestion. I think its pretty clear that my comment was directed at those who clearly indicated that they would simply turn them away, and laugh as they did so.

PATH
October 11, 2004, 04:42 PM
I am my brothers keeper. I will not give him a firearm but I will allow his family into my home. In point of fact I have prepared my supplies for just such a situation.

I have chosen to be a Christian and bad times do not allow me to change my spots. This is the The High Road and I choose to stay on it. Difficult though it may be; I am my brothers keeper! I would like to think that everyone here, when push came to shove, would protect those who cannot protect themselves.

I pray we never find ourselves in such a situation. That is my take on this question.

Nathaniel Firethorn
October 11, 2004, 05:06 PM
Can I trust this guy with my life and the life of my family?

- pdmoderator

redbone
October 11, 2004, 05:30 PM
SkyDaver:

I got mine at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0061057940/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-3833339-3131058#reader-link (http://)

Author is Walter J. Williams.

Rick

spartacus2002
October 11, 2004, 07:01 PM
It's interesting how some who want to "slam the door in his face" quote Darwin, and so many of the rest quote the Bible. It illustrates the difference between a survival-of-the-fittest mentality and Christianity, which demands love for our fellow man, even if he doesn't deserve it, just as the Christian God forgives us even though we don't deserve it.

After reading other responses, I will clarify: if the anti-gun neighbor is a sheeple who has bought the media line about guns but now sees the light, I'll let him in and take him under my wing. If he's a rabid anti-gunner, then I won't invite a viper into my home. Metaphorically speaking, I'd use my rifle to pick off bad guys beating him in the street, but I still wouldn't invite him into my home or arm him just so he could turn against me.

TheLastBoyScout
October 11, 2004, 08:05 PM
Immediate neigbors are shooters.

Haven't talked to most of the others. If it came down to it, I'm not sure what I would do.

4 families are friends of my family, but liberals (2 of them have Demonrat committee people). They would be welcome, provided they could get down, shut up, pull their weight and provide for themselves.

One of those has been like a second family to me. I would be willing to go out and find them, hopefully to bring them to wherever my immediate family is. That's one of the advantages of not being the dad. If I were to do that, there would still be 2 or 3 shooters at home to cover the fort.

Giving out weapons is bad juju... besides, there are just enough to go around for the family.

JohnKSa
October 11, 2004, 09:03 PM
Seems that some folks think that "The Highroad" is really "The Higher-than-Thou-Road".

Helping the less fortunate is encouraged by most religions (including Christianity) and almost universally thought of as admirable. The LESS FORTUNATE is the operative clause. That's people who CAN'T prepare or CAN'T prepare properly. That is CLEARLY NOT people who INTENTIONALLY DON'T prepare.

Putting yourself in danger to help those who have been negligent, or intentionally failed to prepare is an entirely different story. It is clear that Christianity (Matthew 25) does not obligate one in such circumstances and in fact implies that endangering your own security to help one who foolishly does not prepare is foolish.

If that's not direct enough how about II Thessalonians 3:10 "If anyone will not work, neither let him eat." Now we're beyond implications and suggestions and we have a command. If a person WON'T take care of himself you are to let him bear the consequences of his own decisions without interfering. Clearly, those who intentionally do not prepare are NOT to be a burden to those who do.

If YOU feel obligated in such a circumstance then go ahead--that's your decision--however, I think it's possible to state your opinion without impugning those who disagree.

stevelyn
October 11, 2004, 10:08 PM
Well said JohnKSa. Not only does it follow the Diety Handbook(s) for those inclined to do so, it also follows logic.

444
October 11, 2004, 10:52 PM
Sort of a related thing: At work, we have had several instances where someone got hurt off duty and were not recieving a pay check because they were out of sick leave. In one case a guy's son was severely injured in a high school sporting event and was taken to a hospital out of town for treatment: his dad of course went with him intending to use his sick leave-but he didn't have any to use.
In these cases, we are allowed to donate OUR sick time to our brothers so they can get a paycheck and pay their bills during their illness.
Only one time did I offer to donate my sick time.
Why ?
Because while they were calling in sick to go out to the lake, or calling in sick because they met a new woman, or they called in sick to go skiing, or whatever: I sucked it up and came to work. I earned my sick time, and I have it on the books in case I get SICK. I didn't squander it so I could go out and screw around instead of coming to work. Now they want their cake and the ability to eat it too. They wanted to have the day off so they could enjoy themselves (while I went to work), and now they want to get paid on MY sick time. Forget it: you made your bed. That sick time was bargined for so you would have a backup if something like this very event happend, but you wasted it. Now it is time to pay the piper.
The only time I did donate my time was for a guy that had only been on the job a few months and hadn't accrued hardly any sick time of his own.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, we get a lot of sick time. I have almost 2400 hours of sick time on the books. We get enough sick time that if you took it all, every year, you would be off almost 1/10 of the time not even counting your vacation time.

Maybe I am a sick person. Maybe I am heartless. Maybe I am going to burn in the fires of hell.
But, I am not going to enable someone who does stupid thing and then expects me to bail them out at my expense. (unless of course I am on duty at work-then I do it all day and night).

rayra
October 12, 2004, 02:03 AM
Rembrandt

Neighbors beating on my door....
....anarchy in the streets, people being raped and plundered, mass looting, buildings on fire....your liberal neighbor who has anti-gun political signs in his yard is beating on your door asking to borrow a gun....

...do you make him buy an NRA membership before loaning the gun?
...tell him to take a hike, go ask his antigun politican for help?
...have him fill out a form, and wait 5 days?
...team up, letting him be your spotter against bad guys?
I very carefully point something handy between his eyes and tell him 'get the hell off my property, ya anti-gun dumbass'

Sorry, sometimes the non-High road is far more satisfying.

SapperLeader
October 12, 2004, 06:21 AM
It really depends on my relationship with that neighbor besides the issue of firearms. Several of my neighbors are fairly antigun, but dont hassle me about my shooting, and actually are very nice people(just misguided on firearms). Their welcome to come over in such a situation but I will not be arming them. A few other neighbors are antigun(or maybe antimilitary, Im not sure), and glare at me everytime I leave my home. I say hi or wave, and they continue to stare and mutter as I walk to my truck. Its even worse If im headed off to the range. So if they have been evil sobs for years, and I cant trust them under normal circumstances, there is no way I will entrust a firearm or the security of my family to thier ilk. A different category of people would be non firearm owners that I work with, and I ahve taken shooting before. Many of them would be entrusted with sks and other milsurps, and could be used in defense of the neighbor hood. Also a few of my neighbors are progun or ex military and I would also help arm them if they were joining in a co defense of our families. You cant stay awake forever, and allies you can trust is definitly a boon. The question is do you trust some or all of your neighbors, or in some cases none at all. To me it is two different issues, do I let them into my home and look after them, and can I arm them to help defend the home and family.

Model520Fan
October 12, 2004, 09:19 AM
I guess I'll answer the question asked. My answer is "None of the above." It is illegal in my state and stupid in all states to lend a gun to such a person. I wouldn't want him as a spotter because I wouldn't trust his judgment.

As far as inviting him in, I suppose I would worry about that when he asked. Does he have a family? If he is the kind of guy who puts signs on his lawn telling everyone else what to do (and wrongly, by the way), is he someone who could live peaceably with others in a tense situation?

If he is in immediate danger, then you probably have targets you should be engaging. If not, what is the issue? He may just be overreacting to another of his strange fears of the world around him.

Need more details on this hypothetical.

GSB
October 12, 2004, 10:12 AM
The problem is, it may be hard to tell if the neighbor has been turned into a zombie if he was bitten only recently. Better to be certain and go for the cortex shot rather than risk letting a zombie within biting distance. If it turns out you were wrong, well, chances are you saved your neighbor from a fate worse than death anyway, so feel good about your choice.

one45auto
October 12, 2004, 10:51 AM
Maybe I am a sick person. Maybe I am heartless. Maybe I am going to burn in the fires of hell.

444,

None of the above, my friend. Remember that "the Lord helps those who help themselves." JohnKSa's post on the subject should be required reading, because he eloquently states the very point I was attempting to get across. My grandparents were simple farmers who believed in two principles above all else ~ faith in God and self-reliance. My grandmother continually stressed the importance of those values until they were etched into our subconscious. Unfortunately, a great many people in today's society make no effort whatsoever to prepare for emergencies. They live only for today, squandering thier money on pleasurable pursuits. They operate under the assumption that someone ~ be it the kindness of a stranger or an arm of the Federal government, will step in to take care of them should the worst come to pass. Helping such individuals is morally equivalent to giving an addict drug money, because you're enabling them. You're feeding and encouraging thier dependency, not weaning them from it. I've always liked that scene in "The Maltese Falcon" where Humphrey Bogart says "I won't because all of me wants to, in spite of consequences, and because you counted on that with me the same as you counted on that with all the others."

ilcylic
October 12, 2004, 04:39 PM
IF the S has really HTF.

And IF it's time to start rebuilding society from the ground up in small pockets.

And IF this guy has some useful skills, I would consider keeping him alive.

But I'm not giving him a gun. And if he has nothing to offer except another mouth to feed, he's on his own.

-Ogre

Josh
October 12, 2004, 04:49 PM
A good man would invite him in to share the protection of his home.

So I like to think I would do that as I like to think I'm a good man.

But...

The predecation of the scenario states buildings are burning, mass looting, general widespread carnage.

Mr. Anti may look like an arsonist/looter.

If I was a not so good man, maybe the looter gets shot through the door before he can throw what appeared to be a molotov cocktail but was later found to be just a bottle of French wine.

But seriously folks, I'd let them in. Imagine what an ideological ally they would make if they could be turned from the dark side. I've seen it happen.

Antis have friends who are antis. Who better to go forth into the hordes of hoplophobes & bring the light than one who has walked in their steps & knows their illogical minds inside & out? Assuming this isn't an end of the world scenario but rather one caused by local govt, things will eventually go back to normal.

Love,

Josh

WEPS
October 12, 2004, 05:23 PM
give him a gun? bwahahhahahha.. no! ill slap some flex cuffs on him and he can come inside, sit down and shut the F$%ck up though.

fistful
October 12, 2004, 06:02 PM
Zombies are not real...but it sure makes the question more fun.

If YOU feel obligated in such a circumstance then go ahead--that's your decision--however, I think it's possible to state your opinion without IMPUGNING those who disagree. all caps mine

Didn't you just say that some of us were "holier-than-thou"?

I feel so impugned!

GSB
October 12, 2004, 08:05 PM
Zombies are not real...but it sure makes the question more fun.

You just keep telling yourself that. When the Undead Plague comes for you, you'll sing a different tune. :D

AF_INT1N0
October 12, 2004, 08:58 PM
No. He can get his own damn guns.. I like mine right where they are; with me. IMHO if he is as anti as i seems. ie. Signs in the yard, actively being the enemy, then let nature take it's course. If he is that indoctrinated already than he's the kind that would turn as soon as the coast was cleared, In the case of a small SHTF, he'd be taking the weapons he saw in the house later in the year. If it were a larger SHTF then your talking rebuilding, you don't need more of a drain on the new society. The exception being (Doctor-Engineer-Builder) My roommates family races trucks so we have all the mechanical expertise we need)

If he's just a sheeple that doesn't know any better (Get all your food anything else you think you need and start loading mags, cooking/cleaning.

No one mentions the option of evacuation. He can get in his SUV and get the heck out of Dodge. When he returns the smoldering remains of his domicile should leave him with a clear understanding of what happens when you voluntarily give up your means of defense. That, and maybe my new neighbor will be easier to deal with.

But lets get real here. Knowing me I'd have him grab all the food and stuff from his house and just make him realize what an unbearable ass he is.

WE could always cuff him later. And if the time came to find more food we could use his SUV to go forage.

Firethorn
October 12, 2004, 09:08 PM
I wouldn't just give him a gun, but I might invite him(and his family) in.

I guess it really depends on how good of a neighbor he's been. If he's been a bad neighbor, tough luck. If he's been a pretty good neighbor, I'll seriously consider it. There's a lot of effort involved with fortifying a house, and even a pacifist should be able to pound nails.

Of course, all my neighbors right now are military, so in a SHTF situation, we'll all be gone.:( My guns will be in the trunk on the base so that looters can't get to them.

JohnKSa
October 12, 2004, 10:13 PM
I feel so impugned!Crikey!

Where does it hurt???? :uhoh: :what:

The_Antibubba
October 13, 2004, 02:37 AM
1. Is this the LA riots, or TEOTWAKI?
2. Is he an ignorant "sheeple", or truly a lefty nutbag?
3. Does he bring anything to the table in the way of skill/valuables?


If it's a riot situation, I'd tell him to get in his car and get out of there, and that I'd try to prevent his house from being torched, if I could.

If he's never thought much about guns, and is sudden having a "revelation", I might give him shelter, especially if he has family (and yes, non-THR as it might be, the "Does he have a cute daughter?" does cross my mind:evil: )

If it is a TEOTWAKI, or a serious long-term breakdown of order, and this guy is truly anti-gun (and, it is logical to suppose, anti-freedoms), then i have a difficult decision to make. Because, chances are, he has no supplies of his own, and never even considered stocking up-after all, FEMA would take care of things, right?

Maybe he is a doctor or dentist, and my long-term survival would increase with having him around. He doesn't get a gun, but by virtue of his skills, he gets a last chance to unwedge his head.

But what to do if he's truly useless? No way will I endanger me and mine on someone who has only made it this far because he has lived in a rich, benevolent society. I would have to turn him away, right?

Except maybe I can't afford to. He has nowhere to go or turn, and he probably thinks he can negotiate with the looters and the rapists. And now he has the knowledge and the grudge to tell them, in exchange for his life, where they can find a large supply of guns and food.

We are always talking about WTSHTF, but to protect your loved ones and get them through a breakdown in society, and maybe to begin a better, free society on the other side, can you kill this guy? Are you willing to take this life to preserve the lives of others? He's not shooting at you, and he's not threatening you, and maybe he'd just go home and curl up in the fetal position.

But can you chance it?

I hope I'm never faced with this situation, but if I am, I hope he dies quickly, without suffering.

patent
October 13, 2004, 11:15 AM
Except maybe I can't afford to. He has nowhere to go or turn, and he probably thinks he can negotiate with the looters and the rapists. And now he has the knowledge and the grudge to tell them, in exchange for his life, where they can find a large supply of guns and food. No offense, but pre emptively shooting some guy on the mere guess that in some situations he might tell others about you is murder. That puts you down by the rioters in my book.

I'm among those who would leave a man out if I felt him to be a danger to my family, or simply a weak link, but to go actively kill him before you have any basis for it - acting on nothing more than your own fear - is wrong, period. If the S really HTF, the fact that you have food and guns will quickly become clear to the looters. They aren't going to need a roadmap, yours will be the house with the bodies of previous looters outside. Killing this guy won't help you.

patent

444
October 13, 2004, 11:38 AM
People keep saying, well it depends is he a really hardcore anti-gun guy or just a democrat (or whatever).
This guy is putting signs up in his yard that are anti-gun. That to me, is about as hardcore as you are going to get.

goon
October 13, 2004, 12:33 PM
Once again, I guess it depends on your particular SHTF. If we are talking about the aftermath of a hurricane or during a riot, it may very well be worth your while to help the guy. You could convert him and end up with a valuable ally for the next time. I would be tempted to tell him to use his protest signs to defend himself or write a letter to his senator, but I actually probably wouldn't do that. I would probably help him, eventhough he didn't deserve it. I have helped other people that I should have just allowed to "stew in their own cookin" before, and I probably would again. I wouldn't just give anyone a gun though. Too much liability involved after order gets restored.
If we are talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, I would probably help as much as I could to get him to some level of self-sufficiency, but he would essentially be on his own after that. I still wouldn't give him a gun because I would most likely need that gun at some point. I would imagine that in the event of TEOTWAWKI, there would be a few guns around that he could liberate for himself. One thing I could not do is take on him and his family to provide for. I am a single male, and I would be hard pressed to survive such a situation myself. There is simply no way that I could support a large group of other people as well.
The only situation where I would consider arming and training someone is if the US were at war on our own soil, of if some kind of dictator had come to power and he was in need of removal. In that case, an extra mauser in someone's hands does more good than having it stashed in my closet.

Edward429451
October 15, 2004, 11:03 AM
I chewed on this some more and came to the same conclusion. I'd help them unless they made it known that they were not trustworthy or had bad intent. I wouldn't trust him too soon though.

Sure there'd be a certain amount of risk involved. I don't see it as terribly different than 444 kicking in someones door and carrying them to safety from the fire. Risk that his family would lose him, they shoot him, or they are greatful and live. Would you go in a burning house to save someone who has anti signs in the yard? I think you would out of a sense of duty to your fellow man and training.

Scripture says the two greatest commandments are to love God will all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Would you want your neighbor to let you in if the shoes were reversed? Of course. So ou should let them in...all things considered.

Or so it seems to me.:)

Shane333
October 15, 2004, 12:05 PM
Of the five neighbors sharing a fence with me, I know that four have guns and know how to use them. Real salt of the earth people, too. The type I ask to watch our house and take care of the cat when we're out of town.

There's one family that we don't know as well, and I don't know if they have guns. They're friendly enough, but tend to keep to themselves.

What it boils down to is how well I know/trust my neighbor. I don't intend to lend firearms, unless I know the neighbor is familiar with guns and responsible already. Whether I let the neighbors into my home depends on how well I know them.

In my case, if there were riots in town, my neighborhood could organized into an armed militia in less than an hour, with established leadership already in place. Mostly bolt action and lever action dear rifles, but there are a few AK's and AR's mixed in. Most neighbors have food storage too, so we'd be able to hold out easily for weeks until order is reestablished.

Edward429451
October 25, 2004, 12:44 AM
This is a thought provoking issue and I've been thinking and reading about this in an effort to come to some kind of conclusion about this for myself because you guys who say slam the door in their face actually made a pretty darn good case for it. Checking yourself against others opinions is a good thing to do sometimes. It turns out my instincts were with me.

Putting yourself in danger to help those who have been negligent, or intentionally failed to prepare is an entirely different story. It is clear that Christianity (Matthew 25) does not obligate one in such circumstances and in fact implies that endangering your own security to help one who foolishly does not prepare is foolish.

I have to disagree with this. I believe its taken out of context or at least shouldn't be used across the board. It's talking about a specific event more than everyday living. The Thessalonians reference also, If you read 2 Thessalonians 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither will he eat." does sound like hey, they shoulda prepared and taken steps. But this is out of context. If you read the previous chapter and the next chapter also, you see that paul was talking to those who were expecting Christ to come very soon. They quit their jobs and awaited his coming. They were completely capable of working but chose not to. This isn't relevant to the scenario we're discussing. A couple scriptures that I think are relevant are:

Matthew 5:43-48 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Love must be the motivating factor. Just as God out of love bestows riches upon some and out of love brings poverty upon some, we must also use discernment. If we come across a person who is need of help and we are capable of helping them we must help them. Every case is not completely cut and dry and discernment must be used. A person has responsibility first to their family, then to their church family, and then to those outside of the church. Yes they're going to eat some of your family's food. So what. You just have to have a little faith in God that he wont let you starve. He wont.

Or so it seems to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.;)

Gives me an idea for a new thread. Look for the Cops beating on your door thread!!:uhoh:

CannibalCrowley
October 25, 2004, 06:52 AM
You just have to have a little faith in God that he wont let you starve. He wont.That method worked well for the Donner party.

Edward429451
October 25, 2004, 11:02 AM
I know I should probably know this but who's the Donner party?

Intune
October 25, 2004, 11:05 AM
Hostess: Donner party of 25? Um, 24, 21, 19...? Sorry, an oldie and still bad. ;)

Ed, wait 'till after lunch, I'll tell you then.

Edward429451
October 25, 2004, 11:09 AM
Oh, some stranded people who had to resort to cannibalism? Plane crash or something?

Intune
October 25, 2004, 11:23 AM
The Donner party is the name given to a group of emigrants, including the families of George Donner and his brother Jacob, who became trapped in the Sierra Nevada mountains during the winter of 1846-47. Nearly half of the party died, and some resorted to eating their dead in an effort to survive. Many people of the time thought the party lollygagged up in the mountains for too long, not realizing the dangers, instead of pushing through. In total, of the 87 men, women and children in the Donner party, 46 survived, 41 died. Sad story.

JohnKSa
October 25, 2004, 09:54 PM
They were completely capable of working but chose not to. This isn't relevant to the scenario we're discussing.Given that these folks beating on the door were perfectly capable of preparing and chose not to, it sounds virtually identical to me...

I've helped people out of situations that they clearly put themselves into--not talking about misfortune--pure and simple lack of preparation. I'll probably do it again.

I've also helped people who have tried hard and still ended up in trouble. I'll do that again for certain.

The difference is that I see the latter as an obligation--the former as a choice.

firearms_instructor
October 26, 2004, 02:43 AM
Ideally, if I know my neighbor is an anti, he won't even know I have guns. "Guns?! What guns? Isn't it up the police to protect us?"

Not about to give out any guns to any antis, nor to anyone else without proper training.

A lot would depend on what kind of person my neighbor really was, and what kind of relationship I have had with them.

Major points get deducted for spouting or following the commie party line.

My wife and I come first. Not interested in compromising our security.

Yooper
October 26, 2004, 02:30 PM
I would not trust someone who thinks he can deter a determined armed antagonist with rhetoric to cover my back. This makes him a liability and detracts from my ability to look out for my own family which is my first obligation. I would tell him to go home and hide behind the signs in his yard, he's already made his choice.

Master Blaster
October 26, 2004, 04:13 PM
I once lent my neighbor a breaker bar, and a handled wedge and maul to get some tree roots out of his garden, I explained its use, and cautioned him that the breaker was not a prybar, and to be careful with the Wedge maul.

Two days later he returned the breaker bar to me severely bent, and the sharp end of the maul was chipped like he used it to break rocks, and the handle was damaged where he missed. He did not offer to fix or replace either tool. I would not lend him a dog turd let alone a gun.

Besides he would either shoot himself or an innocent bystander with the gun and it would be my fault.

My other neighbor is an extreme anti, who dresses like a hippy, and he would probably offer the mob a flower.

Their wives and children are not to blame though and they could hide in my basement, and help load magazines.

Sulaco
October 26, 2004, 05:12 PM
I'm a Christian so I can say that here and now in the safety of my home in a free country, I would take him in and help.

However, in an anarchist state, where the law no longer exist's, I agree with roscoe...

"Shoot him and take his women."

:fire:

fistful
October 26, 2004, 10:10 PM
Sulaco, if that's your attitude, then leave Christ out of it.

Shanghai McCoy
October 27, 2004, 12:10 AM
I live on 10 acres and have a neighbor who lives next door who absolutly has NO GUNS...so,his wife asks me to shoot the mean black cat who has been beating up their kitty.Perhaps not on the same scale as mutant zombies attacking but I figure,ya want it done do it yourself.Besides,the cat don't bother my 4 dogs...

Joey2
October 27, 2004, 10:02 PM
I WILL tell them to take a hike. I do have neighbors who I advised to stock up on food, etc. They said that God would provide when the time comes.

They have 12 children, no insurance, accepting hand outs from the local church and they have this attitude.

They also do not believe in owning or using firearms in self defense.

Like I said in the beginning, TAKE A HIKE.

one45auto
October 28, 2004, 12:15 AM
They said that God would provide when the time comes.


Joey2,

What your neighbors are really saying is that when the time comes they plan to rely on you.

My ex-wife, who became what I can only describe as "excessively religious" in the aftermath of September 11th, has essentially the same attitude. It's a wasted effort to remind her that the Lord helps those who help themselves, because she's of the opinion that any self-reliance is a sinful affront to, or a de-facto rejection of, God. I've also had more than one born-again Christian espouse similar beliefs and question me as to why I, as a believer in God, would own firearms.

My response is always the same. I'm not rejecting or denying God's help by any means ~ in fact I'm relying very heavily upon it. I've done my part by learning how to use firearms effectively in self-defense, but it's up to the Lord to give me that tap on the shoulder at the right moment so that I catch my attacker by surprise rather than the other way around. He decides when and if I'll have a chance to use it, but after that it's up to me to follow through. If you look at the Old Testament, God frequently told men when, where, or how to attack thier enemies, but it was up to them to carry the battle.

joab
October 28, 2004, 06:48 AM
They said that God would provide when the time comes. Of course Joey, God will send them to you.
Now would you really turn God away:D

greg531mi
October 28, 2004, 11:20 AM
I live in a inner city area, and would block the street, and post guards on either end. Got good neighbors, and would band together to protect the street. Some are antigun, but some are not. I would loan them a gun for guard duty only, for their shift.
Now, my bug out place, up at the lake, almost everyone has hunting guns, but I have a neighbor that sued me over my dock, and I wouldn't help him with nothing! His wife is a nice lady I heard, and would help her, being a gentleman, would always help out a lady.
You can always be be a GDI person, but banding together is strength. We would not have a UNITED States of America if we didn't UNITE.

Havegunjoe
October 28, 2004, 04:57 PM
I wouldn't give him a gun. I would in all probability let them in for shelter in my home. :cuss: They all would receive the biggest lecture of their lives on how their stupid politics have caused the mess we are facing. I would insist that they make a contribution to the NRA as pentence for the error of their ways.

Lupine
October 28, 2004, 05:00 PM
When I moved to my neighborhood I was given information on disaster preparedness courses, asked what skills I have, and by one, eventually recruited to the local gun club and I've become his shooting buddy. (At first I thought they were all a bit funny.)

So I'll be banging on their doors asking for any gunsmithing help, and they'll be banging on mine asking me to help them pick off any zombies that cause any trouble on our block. If I bug out, I know I'll have solid traveling partners.

A few of the neighbors I'm friendly with are a little wary of guns, but I'll be betting that they'd come around. They love their kids, after all. And they would be more than able to round out the skills and manpower needed to get through whatever's going on.

Two sets of neighbors are just plain whacked in the head, regardless of their feelings about 2ndA.

Anyway, some of us on this forum once had to overcome squeamishness about guns, myself included. I wouldn't automatically write off neighbors who are anti-gun. It's amazing how quickly the paradigm shift can kick in under the right circumstances.

Edited to add: I wouldn't be loaning out any of my own guns to anybody who hadn't put some serious time in at the rage with me well before any scenario came up. For legal reasons as well as safety reasons. If any of the anti-people mentioned above requested assistance, they'd have to be able to be able to contribute in some significant form or other.

greyhawk178
October 28, 2004, 05:22 PM
I certainly would not loan him/her a gun to defend themselves when, as said before, they have no clue when or how to use it. Nor would I offer them shelter in my home. Knowing these liberal cowards like I do, if anything went wrong with either scenario, the SOB would sue you and blame everything on you. :cuss:

poesraven
October 28, 2004, 08:12 PM
:what: , NEVER EVER, would I lend a gun out, "NEVER EVER....................

Hot brass
October 29, 2004, 04:00 AM
I would remind him that in Kali, there is a 10 day waiting period for a firearm. Go home and call 911.


My guns don`t get loaned out. PERIOD:mad:

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