[Waitone]

I'm considering changing my carry piece from a wheel gun to a slide gun. Due to size considerations I've zero'd in on the Kahr size and slightly larger but not much.

I would like to get a Kahr non-polymer due to the thickness but have a hard time justifying the $$$$$$$$. An alternative I'm considering is a Kel-Tec P-11 om 9mm. The caliber is right, the size is right, price is right though I could go a little higher. It points naturally, sights are visible, and it holds 10 rounds. I get a 3 finger hold with an extender.

What's the concensus of the P-11? What else would you recommend as a compact carry piece?

All 2 cent donations appreciated.

[WEPS]

i own a kahr KP9. it was a little heavy on the wallet but i figured it was worth it. if i could do it over again i would go with the K9098. i can't speak for Kel-tec. frankly they do nothing for me, i just don't trust em.

[MtrCty]

I have a p-11, I think if you accept it for what it is, long gritty trigger, lightwieght,10rds of 9mm,very compact, you will be happy. With practice you will get decent accuracy with it. Mine has been good as far as function. I have the belt clip and I like to carry it that way, east on ,easy off for those quick trips out when you don't want the hassle of a holster. I also have a Kimber CDP compact , but find myself with the p-11 more often. My .02

[dbracin]

I have a Kel-Tec P-11 and a Kahr PM-9. Both are about the same
size and weight. I prefer the Kahr. Better trigger and sights. Plus
it fits my pocket better.

[Frenchy]

i can't speak for Kel-tec. frankly they do nothing for me, i just don't trust em.

So!...You don't trust a gun you know nothing about???

[M2 Carbine]

I've had the P-11 9mm/40cal since they first came out.

I wouldn't be without one.

It's a little too big for my pockets so it's my boot gun. (KT 32 or 380 for pocket carry)

Very impressive with 10 9mm JHP or 8 40 cal.

Nothing in it's size compares to it.

[cslinger]

WARNING WARNING ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE AHEAD!!!! :D

I have seen so many Keltecs malfunction at ranges that I won't even consider than as a defensive arm. They are tiny to be sure and they are inexpensive and there is a whole bunch of folks who swear by them but based on my limited exposure I could never trust one.

I have seen one go off when dropped.
I have seen at least four to six at various ranges jam up tight enough to require tools and manhandling to unlock them.
I have seen at least another three or four at ranges fire one or two and then jam, clear jam and repeat.

Again, none of these were my guns. I know for a fact two of the really bad jams/lockups were new in box guns.

Now the NIB guns had come from the box to the range with no cleaning, something I never advise. As for the others who knows, maybe they were poorly maintained, shooting crappy ammo, a bad batch of guns, I don't know. I just know that based on those experiences I will never own a KelTec.

The steel KAHRs I would buy. The plastic ones I have my doubts about. I just have such a hard time dealing with a modern pistol that REQUIRES a break in period and apparently the plastic KAHRs require a good 200 round break in. I always test my defensive arms with at least 200 rounds but I simply have never really owned a pistol that required a break in period to function reliably. (Rugers, SIGS, Glocks, Walthers, Colt 1911, HK P7 etc. All of these worked right out of the box after an initial cleaning and lubing.)

Once again this is all one idiot's informal observations so take it for what it's worth. Like I said lots of people swear by KelTecs.

Chris

[Gunmeister]

There are just as many who swear at them, count me in that number. In the past I have had two P32s both sent back to the factory at least twice. I had a P11 that went back once and was just OK when I got it back. The trigger is hard to get used to and was fussy about what JHPs you fed it. There is a website www.ktog.org that has many loyal K-T owners who will walk you through fixing just about anything that goes wrong with any K-T model. K-T customer service is great.
Having said all that, if you want a gun that probably won't work well out of the box. If you want a gun that demands to be tinkered with and if you have the patience to get it right, Kel-Tec is for you. I had none of those qualities and won't own another.
My 24/7 carry is a Kahr MK9, all stainless. It has performed flawlessly since the day I bought it and it is totally reliable. Really fine gun. Much easier to CCW than a Glock G26, which by the way is a great gun also.

[mini14jac]

We've got a P3AT and a P32, but I no longer have a P11.
(I've had two. :eek: )
As the above poster said, if you can get used to the trigger, they are decent guns.

However, the gun that permanently replaced the P11 was a PM9.
Probably the most expensive handgun I had bought at that time.
However, it is worth it.
When you compare a P11 and a PM9 side-by-side, it's obvious that the PM9 is a quality gun.
It is has every bit of the fit and finish of a Glock, and the trigger has to be experienced to be believed.
Every time I shoot it, I think "Man, this is an awesome gun!"
It's very shootable, and very accurate.
I never even think about what it cost. (If you knew me, you'd know how incredible that is.)

That said, if you can get used to a P11 trigger, the gun should serve you fine.

However, there is a rumor going around that KelTec is finally going to come out with a small single-stack 9mm.
If they give it the trigger of the P32, and P3AT, I'll do my best to get one.

It really depends on what you want.

-Edited to add:
Yes, Kahr recommends a 200rd break in, but I took mine straight to the range, no cleaning.
I think the third or fourth mag I shot were jhps. No problem.
In that first 200rds, I may have had 1 round that failed to fully chamber.
Nothing since.

I mainly shoot Win. White Box. It loves those, and the White Box jhps.
My carry round is Speer 124gr +P GoldDots. It eats 'em like candy.
(Until I put the recoil spring in backwards! :eek: )

[unspellable]

First, I had an AMT 380 Backup. It was a jammomatic. Tried three or four different magazines, several different factory loads. Jam, jam, jam, jam. Weird malfunctions like tossing a loaded round on the ground on front of me. Dumped it.

Got a Guardian in 32 ACP. better, but still jammed.

Got a Kal tek in 32, seems to work. Got a Kal tek in 9 mm. Seems to work although the recoil is uncomfortable due to the small size and squarish grip.

Through out all this I've had a Colt Mustang that seems to work but the rear sight keeps working out. This is a potential malfucntion as the rear sight retains the spring for the firing pn block.

[emc]

I have a Kel-Tec P-32, and have owned the P-11 and P-40. The P-32 is excellent, and with a few improvements such as the Plus One magazine floor plate, 13 lb. recoil spring, shoots great, first time and every time. The trigger pull isn't bad either. This gives me a 9 round pocket .32 that recoils like a .22 Mag. :D The WW Silvertips are plenty accurate for the very crude sights that come with the gun.

I didn't keep the P-11 or the P-40. The out of the box trigger pulls are long and pretty hard. There are some home gunsmithing tips that can make a tremendous difference, but they can affect reliability unless they are fine tuned until they are just right. I did try to do this, but had all sorts of FTFire. Trying to work on this just proved too time consuming. While the unmodified gun was more reliable, I didn't want to put up with the trigger pull when I had 9mms like the Kahr K9 and the Springfield XD9. (The lighter weight of the Kel-Tecs is not a feature that is important to me.) I had wanted the Kel-Tec 9mm & .40 as inexpensive car guns. Ultimately, I just spent too much time messing with these, and decided to cut my losses and sell them. I know that there are those who have been able to fine tune them to perfection, but I didn't have that sort of time to devote to them.

One man's experience.....

emc

[Old Dog]

I was given a P-40 ... kept it for two years (only because I couldn't sell it or trade it). Horrible trigger. Brutal recoil. The pistol had to be cleaned after every few magazines shot or it simply would not function. Inexplicable FTFs, FTEs and FTRBs on a regular basis. Based on my experience with Kel-Tecs, I wouldn't trust my life to one. Fortunately, I was finally able to trade it off at a gun show (for a Taurus PT-908 of all things, but it worked) ...

[Kestrel]

cslinger,

I know what you mean. I had always ignored any kind of KelTec, but noticing a lot of people talking about them. I looked at the P3AT at a store and thought it looked and felt like a cheap toy.

Then I talked to an individual I know in the gun manufacturing industry. He also works as a part-time deputy. He said he carries one as a deep-concealed backup and his was reliable...

So... I decided to give them a chance. I bought TWO of the P3ATs, with the intention of doing the "fluff-and-buff" on both (all the while resenting that this is recommended to even make them reliable) and shooting them a lot to make sure they were reliable.

Well, BOTH of them had defective hammers or triggers out of the box. Before I even fired them, I noticed the hammer would sometimes follow the slide to a half-cock position and wouldn't go back all the way.

I returned them for replacements. They have sat, unfired, in their boxes in my house since. When I need a pocket pistol, I just continue to stick a J-frame in my pocket.

I'll probably try them out eventually, but just have trouble trusting them. (Yes, I regret buying them... )

Steve

[Wilson 17&26]

SteveW13, I don’t know if this is you problem or not but . . .

. . .the half-cocked feature is by design on the P-32 & P-3AT. I have thrown m P-3AT 20’ across the room (don’t ask) on a dozen occasions and never worried about an accidental discharge. By the same token, you don’t have second hammer strike capability like the P-11 but I would have worried about a P-11 repeatedly flying across the room.

You will also find that the half-cocked feature requires you let the trigger move all the way forward between each shot. The trigger pull is required to generate enough power to fire the cartridge as a safety feature.

[Wilson 17&26]

Waitone, you can now purchase a 12 round flush fitting LEO magazine from Kel-Tec if you prefer it to the 10 round magazine.

I now leave my G 26 at home and carry one of my P-11s daily.

[3rdpig]

I've owned a P-32 for about 6 months, I liked it so much I tracked down a used P-40 and bought that. The P-32 worked flawlessly right out of the box, I've done the fluff and buff to smooth it up a bit, but it's fired everything I've put through it without a single FTF or FTE. The recoil is mild and the accuracy is acceptable. I've added a modified Handall grip and use a DeSantis Trickster pocket holster. It's part of my EDC equipment.

The P-40 had some problems, occasional FTF's on the last round in the mag and the mags would occasionaly drop loose. After a good F&B and and a replacement mag catch (proviced by Kel-tec at no charge) it's shot the last 500 rounds of target and defense loads without a hitch. Yes, the recoil from the P-40 is on the harsh side, but this ain't no target pistol. It's a pocket rocket and not for the faint of heart or the limp of wrist. It's replaced my S&W 3913 as my main carry gun, often using an SOB holster and often just the pocket clip.

Kel-Tec's aren't for everyone, if you've got some patience and are willing to work with the gun, it can provide excellent results

[GigaBuist]

I bought a P3AT back in Februrary.

First time out after cleaning, it failed to return to battery 100% of the time, but ejected fine. Weird. I looked at the owners manual again and realized I forgot to put in 1 of the 2 recoil springs.

That explains what the extra gun spring was in my cleaning area. Somedays I'm not too bright.

Every time AFTER that I got failures to eject. Extracted fine, just didn't eject. It sat in the safe for quite a while while I shot guns that I liked more. Every time I took it out I'd have 1-2-3 jams per magazine.

Tried a rubber grip thinking maybe I was limp wristing it.

Extra mags.

Extended magazine grips, nothing!

I finally sat down and did a REAL cleaning and polishing on it. EVERYTHING I could smooth I did.

Last time out, it ran fine. Just feeding it Federal ammo at least. I'm not even going to bother with JHP rounds in .380. Not up for debate, sorry. :)

Would I buy another KelTec pistol? Probably not... nor would I recommend them to somebody UNLESS they are willing to tinker with the thing and maybe send it back to the factory. I'm about 50% sure mine works now. I need to try and dump 500 rounds through it in a day or something (man that'll tear my hand up) to know for sure.

I'd be happier if I bought a snub-nose .357/.38 though. Once I get one the KelTec will probably never leave the house unless it's a BUG.

[Felonious Monk]

My P11 is 100%. Many friends have shot it and declared it to be the best DAO trigger they've ever shot. Total time on trigger mods was maybe an hour and a half.

I own a P32 as a daily carry. My wife's daily carry is a P32.

Oh, I just today ordered a P40 a friend came across in a pawn shop. He said it appeared unfired.

The price? $109.00. If I need to do a fluff and buff to get it where I want it, so be it.
Those who don't like 'em can have all the Kahrs you want for 5 and 6 and 7 hundred dollars. :uhoh: :scrutiny: :rolleyes:

[glockman23]

i bought a p11 9m when they first came out as a backup gun.after i shot a box of 50 i went back to my buck nife as back up for my g23

[albanian]

One thing that always remains true in the gun world is, you never regret spending money on a good gun but you always regret spending money of a bad gun. No matter how cheap the Kel-Tec is, if you don't like it and it is of poor quality, you will have paid too much. On the other hand, a Kahr may seem expensive now but after a few years of good service, you may be thinking that it was one of the best buys you have ever made.

I speak from experience. I think Kahrs are one of the best small autos on the market. I only have experience with the all steel guns not the plastic ones. Mine have been reliable, ergonomic, accurate, low recoiling and easy to shoot. By contrast, my new Kel-Tec P-32 was unreliable and poorly made. I sent it back to the factory twice for reliablity issues and then it broke and I replaced the parts and traded it. I lost much money on it and I feel it was one of the worst deals I ever made. I wouldn't buy one if they were selling for $75 new. My Kahr is worth every penny and then some. I would pay a little more for a Kahr if I had too now that I know they are worth it.

[krang]

I've had my P11 for awhile now. It's been a very good pistol so far. I'm getting close to 1000 rds. through it. I've had 4 FTF's at the beginning and no problems since. I clean and oil it after every use. Initially the trigger pull took some getting used to. I use Winchester 115gr FMJ for practise Andf 124gr Hyrashocks for defense. Practise and more practise has made it one of my favorites. Just my 2 cents. :)

[Gunmeister]

FELONIOUS MONK-- Here's a bet for you. Beg borrow or steal any all steel 9MM Kahr that you can find. Place it and your P11 with it's reworked trigger ( the paper clip trick maybe?) on a table at the range. Let all of your freinds fire a full magazine through each. I'll bet you a six pack that they will change their opinion on which gun has the best DAO trigger they have ever seen.
There are plenty, I repeat plenty of used E9 Kahrs available on the market for around $300 which is about $25 more than a new K-T P11 which may or may not work out of the box. The Kahr products are so far superior to K-Ts that there just is no fair comparison. I've owned several K-Ts in the past both P11s and P32s. I swear to you I wouldn't give you $50 for the whole pile if they were in front of me right now.
As previously stated, if you want a gun that probably won't work well right out of the box, if you want a gun that demands to be tinkered with and if you have the patience to get it right, then Kel-Tec is for you. A CCW piece is for saving life and limb, from my own personal experience with K-Ts, I would not trust a K-T to do that. Granted there are lot's of folks out there who love them and their customer service is terrific but I can't get a comfortable feeling with them. Count me in the number who swear at them.

[wally]

I repeat plenty of used E9 Kahrs available on the market for around $300 which is about $25 more than a new K-T P11

I go to lots of gun shows and have never seen a used Kahr for less than $350 that didn't have obvious problems (cracked recoil spring plunger). P11 can be had new for $230 wihtout too much trouble, I've seen them for $199 on occasion.

Before buying a P11 take a look at the Taurus Millenium series where you have a choice of 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP for under $300. Kahr is by far the best gun of the three and is priced accordingly.

OTOH the Kel-Tec P3AT is unique in its size/weight/power and nothing compares unless you've got ~$900 to drop on a Roughbach 9mm (How long is the wait? I've not yet seen one). Because of this, its worth sending it back as often as it takes to get it right, Kel-Tec will make it right if you give them a chance.

When I can hide a J-frame, my SC360 .357 is a far better choice than the P3AT (and probably a Kahr 9mm) but I can hide a P3AT even if I've nothing on but my underwear :)

Kahr's aren't perfect, nothing is. See the thread here about the Glock 34 with feeding problems.

My Kahr PM40 had a defective mag catch, Kahr sent me a replacement without hassle. Kel-Tec fixed my P3AT without hassle. Would I have prefered both were 100% out of the box, you bet!

--wally.

[albanian]

I agree with Gunmeister. It is not a fair comparison even if you factor in the price. If I were buying a gun for CCW and resale value was not an issue, I wouldn't pay $50 for a Kel-Tec but I would pay full retail or a little more for a Kahr. I think a $600 Kahr is still a better value than a $50 Kel-Tec. I am a notorious skin flint so I hope that has the impact that I intend.

I may be a little biased because the Kahr is one of my all time favorite pistols and the Kel-Tec I had was one of my all time biggest lemons. I have had over 100 guns in my life and the Kahr is my favorite CCW semi-auto. The Kel-Tec ranks right up there with some of the worst and cheapest junk I have owned. I have had some junk like Jennning J-22s, Taurus PT-22, and Ravens. Until the Kel-Tec came along, the Taurus was my most expensive lemon ($160). My Kel-Tec cost me over $300 when you include shipping. At $300, you would think you could get a gun that worked and did not break it's internal parts. I would rather trust my life to my .25acp Raven than the P-32 that I had. My Raven never jammed but it was made of pot metal and weighed a ton for being only a .25acp.

My point is, if you try and save a few bucks on a CCW and end up with something that is less than ideal, you really haven't saved anything at all. Look around for used Kahr K-9s or K-40s. The K-40 soaks up more recoil than any other gun its size that I can think of. It make shooting the .40 tolerable. The K-9 is a dream, it is low recoiling, accurate and cheap to feed so you can get plenty of practice. You will need some pratice in order to get used to the Kahr trigger but once you do, it works great. The Kel-Tec trigger will take quite a bit more practice because it is a really poor trigger and bad trigger hurt your shooting more than any other factor.

[Gunmeister]

WALLY-- notice I said Kahr E-9 that's their economy model and you can find them on GB or GA and gun shows for around $300. The E-9 is all Kahr but comes with one magazine and a non dovetailed front sight and some other minor cosmetic differences. I'd rather trust my butt to a used Kahr over anything K-T makes. Speaking of butts, where do you hide your P3AT when you have nothing on but your underwear? I know they are small but are they really that small?:D

[wally]

Thunderwear/JAGwear "pouch" holster. A pair of boxers or briefs covers it right up :)

A search on gunsamerica.com for Kahr E-9 or Kahr E9 comes up empty.
Don't think I've ever seen an E-9. No E9 is listed in the 2004 Retail Price sheet Kahr included when I got a replacement grip screw for my MK40.

--wally.

[Gunmeister]

WALLY-- You don't give up too easily do you?
You won't find a Kahr E9 or a K40 Covert on the Kahr 2004 website for the same reason you won't find a P40 on the KT 2004 website because---- they don't make them anymore.
Go over to Glock Talk and scroll down to Kahr Club, ask them if they ever heard of a Kahr E9. Go over to Pistolsmith, scroll down to the Kahr forum and ask them if they ever heard of a Kahr E9. Better yet go to www.kahr.com scroll to "contact us" and ask them if they ever heard of a Kahr E9. If you own a Kahr MK40 I am surprised you never heard of the Kahr E9.
They can be found at gun shows and occassionally on Gun Broker or Guns America, they normally sell for around $300 which is a far better deal used than a brand new P11.
A P3AT in a Thunderware pouch? Must get lost down there.:evil:
OBTW I guess you didn't look close enough on www.gunsamerica.com under the Kahr Handguns, first page, third entry there is a Kahr E9, the guy has it way over priced like most vendors do on GA but there is one there.:D

[wally]

I didn't look, I used their search function, seems pretty useless since it didn't find the one you mention.

If you want a good cheap 9mm gun that's not being made any more, take a look at the Star BM for $140 from www.jgsales.com

There is more to Kel-Tec than just the P11, which I agree is not so great. I took a Taurus Millenium over a P11 and a Kahr PM40 over an MK9 or PM9. If I couldn't afford the Kahr I could be satisified with the Millenium. The P3AT is unique enough in its niche that its worth the potential hassle of sending it back to get it working right.

I hesitate to recommend a used gun, most are fine but sometimes one just gets stuck with someone else's problem child.

--wally.

[Clark]

I have a Star BM.
And it is a real "BM" compared to my Kel-Tecs.

[Jim4003]

I got to shoot a kel tec at the range today, I was not impressed, the gun had several malfunctions and was not at all accurate. This result was the same both for myself and two other people who shot it. One was the owner and he commented on finding a replacement.

[arinvolvo]

between the KT P11 and the Kahr PM9, the Kahr wins hands down for reliabilty out of the box, and overall quality.

This is not to say that a P11 will NOT be reliable, or cannot be MADE to be reliable...but if the price were the same, i would go for the Kahr.

BUT, that is where the KT wins, in the price game. Kahrs are pretty damn expensive lately.

[albanian]

I had an E-9 so they do exist. Nothing wrong with them but mine was a two tone, I like the all SS of the K-9 better. I paid $360 new for my E-9. I paid $345 used but in like new shape for my K-9 so deals are out there. Those prices were OTD. Like I said, I had a little over $300 in my P-32 so for an extra $50-60, the Kahr starts to look very good. I think the P-11 is about the same price as the P-32 if I am not mistaken so prices should translate.

One thing about the Kel-Tecs, they do fill a role that nothing else fills. The P-32 and P3-AT are so small and light that you really can carry them when you couldn't carry a larger heavier gun. Now if they could only solve that pesky problem of making them work.:neener: It don't matter how small and light a gun is if it is not reliable.

[Devonai]

I just bought a Kel-Tec P11, and I have yet to take it to the range. However, I have owned a Glock 26 in the past and the P11 beats it for ergonomics so far. I can only hope my new pistol is as reliable as the Glock was. If it is, the price tag will be well worth it.

[Clark]

I own 3 Glocks and 3 Kel-Tecs.
It is like boats: when using, always wish it were bigger, when transporting and storing, always wish it were smaller.
So the Glocks are nicer to shoot than Kel-Tecs, but not as nice as 1911s and N frames.
The Glocks are not as easy to carry as the Kel-Tecs but easier than 1911s and N frames.

So if I did not have a concealed carry permit, I would not own a Kel-Tec.
Because I DO have a permit, the only thing I carry is Kel-Tecs.

The new Kahr P40 Covert [14 oz + 2 oz mag] and PM9094 [16 oz + 2 oz] are really nice guns.
They are very nearly as light as Kel-Tecs and narrower, but they hold less ammo.
I am going to have to get one.

[wally]

Love my Kahr PM40. Rarely carry my P3AT as I can usually hide the PM40 most anytime I'm wearing a belt. A .40S&W is way more gun than a .380ACP, except for Clark's overloads! :)

What's a "BM" compared to a Kel-Tec? I didn't get this comment.


--wally.

[Clark]

kiddy site explains the "BM" (http://kidshealth.org/kid/stay_healthy/body/bowel.html)

[clange]

I bought a P11 because i didnt have the money for a kahr. Its done fine after breaking in (250 rounds or so). Gives me problems with 147gr JHP but thats common. 115gr work great. The trigger sucks, but hey, its half as much.

Still, if i had the cash i'd have a PM9 i think. ;)

[Wilson 17&26]

Kel-Tec sells a P-11 trigger shoe that helps some. Also see http://1bad69.com/keltec/triggersmoothing.htm

[azrael]

I have....

2 P-11's

2 P3AT's

2 P32's

Notice a trend??:D

I love the things....They are my carry weapon 90% of the time...I have had trouble with 2 of them out of the box, although it isnt anything that coiuldnt be fixed easily by me or my local gunsmith...

KT customer service is top-notch AND they support small holster makers, by sending them "patterns" for free...

Kahr does not do this..<~~~grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Flipper]

I have a P - 11 that absolutely lives in my pocket. It's been there for a little more than a year & a half. I got it barely used for $200 ( previous owner did not like the recoil and went to a Browning Hi - Power) and after a little gettin' used to, it has been as reliable as could be. With the proper grip its not bad at all, though that trigger pull takes some gettin' used ta. Considerin' it gives you 11 (Eleven) 9mms with very little weight...it's gonna stay in my pocket. Granted it is primarily a close-quarters weapon that is not gonna win many Bulls-eye competitions but it gives you a great deal of security with hardly any "carrying costs".

[Wilson 17&26]

Now that Kel-Tec sells the LEO 12 round flush fitting magazine to the public, you can have 13 rounds in the sane size P-11 package.

[SteveA]

I used to be of the "don't trust KelTec" group. Some time back, I had a chance to buy one of the P3-AT's [one of the later ones] far too cheap to pass on.

To date, I've pushed 600 rounds through it. When I first got it, I had several Fail To Feeds but that was in the first box of ball. Since then, I've fed it everything I can get my hands on and have yet to repeat that problem, though I did have a Fail To Fire problem with one box of some kind of Russian or Greek crap Ammoman had on special, probably hard primers. Looked like light strikes and shuffling them back into the mag for a second strike, they all went.

Bottom line is, I now trust this little gun. I seldom carry it as a primary but as a backup to my P239 .357Sig, it's easy to carry.

I think KelTec has made some improvements over the years and most of their current crop of products are fairly sound.