You've got 25 acres to protect, Mini 14, or M1Carbine?


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twoblink
October 13, 2004, 09:07 AM
No AR's.. please..

Basically, the question is, you've got a small plot of land, you want a ranch gun, and your two options are:

Mini-14
or
M1 Carbine.

Which and why..

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Rupestris
October 13, 2004, 09:13 AM
What are you protecting it from?
Coyote? Groundhogs? People? Aliens?

Ian
October 13, 2004, 09:13 AM
I'd go with the M1 carbine. I've seen (firsthand) too many Minis have problems to feel very comfortable with one.

VG
October 13, 2004, 09:15 AM
Simple choice. While the Mini 14 has significant negatives, the 5.56 cartridge is much more widely available, has more energy, and many more loads.

The M1 Carbine is mighty light and handy but the number of loads for it is pretty limited.

I know I'm paranoid - but am I paranoid enough?

rbernie
October 13, 2004, 09:29 AM
If those are your only two options - you need more options. In fact, for less than $150 in most places you can have better options, and for $250 your options become pretty broad. Your call.

But between the two presented choices, there is no immediate best answer. The Mini14 has the strength of its chambering and the availability of aftermarket hi-caps (if that's useful to you), while the M1 is far lighter and handier and cooler. If you're going to use it for keeping an active varmint/small predator population in check, the low cost and relative punch of the .223 chambering compared to the 30Carbine round probably would point you in the direction of the Mini.

Onmilo
October 13, 2004, 09:53 AM
I have owned and used both rifles in a rural setting.
I like the M1 Carbine but if you want an all around rifle and these are the choices you have settled on, then I would suggest getting a Mini 14 ranch Rifle, stainless or blued, but I would lean towards a blued version if you can get one, they seem to be more accurate right from the box.
Replace the wooden stock with a synthetic of your choice and replace the cheesy factory rear sight with a decent battle type apeture sight.
Scope the rifle if you want, I never saw the need, iron sights worked just fine with my rifles.
Keep the rifle clean and well greased and stick to 55 grain or lighter bullets since the Mini 14 barrels are 1 in 12 twist unless they changed that in recent production.
The rifles I owned wouldn't shoot 60 grain or heavier bullets well at all but 50-55 grain cartridges shot with acceptable accuracy.
If you want or need large capacity magazines then find genuine Ruger production, I have never found an off brand large capacity magazine that worked well in these rifles.
The factory Ruger magazines function flawlessly.
A good Mini 14 will serve your needs well.

natedog
October 13, 2004, 10:19 AM
Twoblink- back to no ARs again?!

What about the SU-16?

Bwana John
October 13, 2004, 10:33 AM
Neither- M-1 Carbines are aproaching collector status, and Minis arnt my favotite, and neither rifle is chambered in a sutible caliber. In a semi-auto beater Id choose a SKS. Or mayby a old .30-30 or old bolt gun with optics. I used a Yugo Mauser in 8mm Mauser for my ranch gun when I was a caretaker for a 160 acre ranch, my main concern was the mnt lions that followed the deer herd thru the ranch on their bi-yearly migrations. Sorry, but IMHO the rifles you have chosen are more kind of getto punk, than get it done on the ranch.

Skunkabilly
October 13, 2004, 10:45 AM
What are you protecting it from?
Coyote? Groundhogs? People? Aliens?

Dude, we're Chinese. The Japanese, of course! :evil:

Gewehr98
October 13, 2004, 10:45 AM
Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, 150gr or 170gr Silvertips.

benEzra
October 13, 2004, 11:06 AM
If you're stuck with those two, I'd go with the mini-14, on a caliber basis. Accuracy isn't stellar, but it is completely reliable. Just test your magazines well before relying on them.

If money were no object, an UltiMAK forward rail and red-dot or holosight would seem to be the cat's meow as far as sighting systems go.

(Personally, I'd go with a SAR-1 in that role, but that wasn't a choice.)

TallPine
October 13, 2004, 11:15 AM
Neither ...

Saiga 7.62*39 (available for about $185 at the ranch supply store)

or

Winchester Model 94 30-30

or

Marlin 336 30-30



Actually, a scoped bolt-action 22-250 wouldn't be a bad idea either. That's actually what you are most likely to find leaning in the corner of the kitchen on a Montana ranch. (most of which are more like 2500 acres or more)

Ktulu
October 13, 2004, 11:19 AM
The ground rules preclude me from answering your question. :neener:

twoblink
October 13, 2004, 11:21 AM
Nate, I just don't think I can do it, I can't get an AR.. It's against everything I believe!! I probably can't live with myself if I did.. The SU-16, looks a bit weak, and I am suspicious of everything but the barrel being polymer..

What are you protecting it from?

I would assume, the usual varmints, and Wiley.. an occasional human or two might also be true..

Dude, we're Chinese. The Japanese, of course!

Err, actually Skunk, we are Chinese, so I'll probably use it to illegally hunt sharks for their fins.. :neener: (Just Kidding you Greenpeace tree huggers)

The M1Carbine has the size advantage (something my gf can tote) but the mini has the cartridge advantage..

rbernie
October 13, 2004, 11:26 AM
Hmm - cheap, rugged, versatile, simple....

<broken record>

SKS

</broken record>

cslinger
October 13, 2004, 11:28 AM
Given the choices presented the Mini 14.

My personal choices......
Lever Gun in (.30 30 or .357 Mag)
SKS


Both should be cheaper than either the M1 or the Mini 14, both shoot easy to find cheap ammo, both are reliable to a fault, both are short and light enough with the Lever getting the nod here. Both are legal just about everywhere, both have more than adequate ammunition supplies and are easily reloaded.

Zombies, Terrorists, Grizzly Bear Hoards and Ghengis Khan asside either of those should be just dandy for everyday utility varmint control, hunting, self defense firearms.

The Lever gun in .357 should be easy for anybody to shoot. No recoil to speak of and with modern ammo choices is likely to be more reliable and more potent than a .30 carbine, not to mention cheaper and easier to find.

My two cents.

George S.
October 13, 2004, 11:29 AM
I would go with the Mini-14 Ranch model. You can install a scope or red dot if you want and you can even upgrade the poor factory rear sight to the M1 Carbine sight. There is more of a variety of bullet weights and types for the .223 Remington cartridge compared to the .30 Carbine. Ammo cost would be a factor too. I have seen Wolf 55gr .223 for as low as $2.00/box of 20. You can get lots of target practice and fun plinking for that price.

A lot of people seem to give the Mini a bad rap when it comes to accuracy but with some inexpensive mods, you should be able to get down to 2-3" groups at 100 yds. Smaller gas port bushing, muzzle brake, and even cutting the barrel down to just over 16" will greatly improve accuracy out of the box. Add a bolt buffer and cheap scopes will survive the lessened recoil shock. A good trigger job will reduce the weight of pull and reduce trigger creep found in the factory setup. Bed the stock too.

Aftermarket hi-cap mags are available and with the exception of a couple of brands, they work well. Swap in a factory Ruger follower and any of them will work.

Andrew Wyatt
October 13, 2004, 12:02 PM
I'd go with a standard with a handguard railmount and an aimpoint or leupold scout scope.


provided the mini-14's magazine release is in spec, they'll work with basicaly any magazine, even the cheap ones.

goon
October 13, 2004, 12:13 PM
If you are set on one of the two rifles you listed, you almost have to go with the mini-14. The 30 Carbine just doesn't enough power to really be counted on to do whatever you may need it to do. Neither does the mini-14 really, but it is still a little better. I have shot them and although they did work with the factory ten rounders, they didn't like most hi-caps. I also saw one get the bolt stuck back and we could not get it to go forward. I don't own one, so my experience is limited, but I wouldn't want one.
Others have listed the Saiga, SKS, or a lever action 30-30. I would also suggest one of those, along with maybe an old Mauser, Enfield, or Mosin Nagant. If it is gonna get handled rough and beat around anyway there is no sense in starting out with a pretty new gun or a collectible old one.

Lobotomy Boy
October 13, 2004, 02:27 PM
I'm a fan of both guns you selected, but I have to agree with those who suggested a lever gun. If I had to have one gun for all purposes on a small piece of land, I'd probably get a 12-gauge Remington 870 youth model. On 25 acres you're going to need a shotgun a lot more than a rifle. It can hunt anything you need killed at that range, will eliminate all unwanted critters from a squirrel to a grizzly bear, and as for self-defense, nothing beats it. If size is a consideration, the youth model is pretty manageable.

Mick
October 13, 2004, 02:38 PM
How bout an SKS? My Yugo shoots circles around my mini14! Plus you have money left over for ammo...

cslinger
October 13, 2004, 02:41 PM
Hey anybody mention the SKS yet???:neener:

teppo-shu
October 13, 2004, 03:18 PM
I WAS going to 2nd the lever gun in .357, but let's do some math...

25 acres = 121,000 sq. yds. Assuming a square plot of land, that's about 348 yards to a side. Your longest potential shot corner to corner would therefore be close to 500 yards (492). Assuming you're somewhere on the land when taking your shot, let's say you want to be able to cover at least 2/3 of that distance. So you're still talking potential shots of over 300 yds.

The M1 carbine ain't gonna git'r'done! Of your two choices, the only one would have to be the Mini.

I think I'd want a SKS, Saiga, or 30-30 lever, however. Maybe even a nice little .243 with a 4x scope. Browning BAR?!:cool:

R.H. Lee
October 13, 2004, 03:22 PM
.30 cal is always better than .22 cal. My choices would be the M1 Carbine, 30-30 Marlin or even a Mini30. BTW, my first choice (since nobody's mentioned it yet) would be an SKS.

cslinger
October 13, 2004, 03:34 PM
The diameter of the bullet does not always mean it is going to be the more effective round. I am a .30 cal guy at heart as well but .223 has significantly more juice than .30 carbine and a whole lot more options as far as bullet design goes.

dadman
October 13, 2004, 04:05 PM
Mini 14.
Ammo availability and selection.
Newer made.
More accessories available.

Correia
October 13, 2004, 04:25 PM
It depends on what the terrain is like. 25 acres isn't that big. (I grew up on 380, with another 300 rented under alfalfa). If the terrain is open, then the .223 would certainly have more potential. If the terrain is rolling, or wooded, then the distance shots might be moot.

Personally I don't like Mini-14s a whole lot. I would probably get a Saiga or SKS for less than half and call it good.

I like the M1 Carbine, but I don't think of it as a rifle. It is a fun little short range, bascially pistol level carbine.

gaston_45
October 13, 2004, 04:37 PM
The su-16 is perfect for what you are looking for. It is light weight so the girlfriend can carry it, it uses either 223 or 5.56 (don't start) for cheap ammo, and it uses the front half of the ar bolt hooked to the gas system out of an ak for more reliability and a LOT less cleaning.

All of the working parts are metal, the polymere is just to take up the required space to make it look like a rifle. There is no shortage of cheap magazines either, as it uses AR magazines. Did I mention accurate?? 100 yard three round sight in groups using winchester white box ammo and a 3 power scope could be covered with a dime.

I am on 80 acres and that is the coyote rifle, any other needs or unknown need gets a 308, can't fool around with poodle shooters at times.

Feanaro
October 13, 2004, 06:58 PM
Are we talking about flatlands or hilly/wooded? If the former, the Mini-14 would cover the ground better. I don't like them much but they are accurate enough and rugged enough for the job. If the latter I think the M1 would be handier and easier to shoot.

Nippy
October 13, 2004, 07:06 PM
If it be Mini or M1 Carbine

If you are protecting your ranch from coyotes go with the Mini-14.

You dont really need to add any mods to the mini to get it to group reasonably (if you are taking 5 shots or so).

.223 is reputably good at stopping or shredding things apart. You can also dial in to reach out and touch something at 350 yrds with a Mini.

If you are going to fight aliens get a M1 Carbine. The Mini mags are a pain in the ass, and when the barrel heats up the Mini tends to go from MOA to 2 feet MOA at 100yrds (this is w/o mods). Mag changes are harder and you can't put in a full 10rnd mag with the bolt closed...

Basically to get a Mini to be combat ready is a lot of trouble IMO. Get Mags that work, cut barrel, bed stock, change torque on gas block etc.. Of course you may still have problems with the Mini flinging bullets (after the barrel heats up) left and right after the mods. Its a great ranch gun but not a battle rifle.

jobu07
October 13, 2004, 07:30 PM
It seems as though the mini is going to have the range advantage and a bit more stopping power at that range. At short ranges,however, either would be adequate i'd say. A'course at 25 acres, range isn't much of an issue as you can traverse it rather quickly, especially if you know the lay of the land. In which case the shorter, handier carbine would be to our advantage.

threefeathers
October 13, 2004, 08:24 PM
I have several of both and many more. I carried an M-1 carbine in Berlin and an M-2 carbine in SE Asia. I admit that I carry a shooter Winchester M-1 carbine in my truck with 2 30 round mags loaded with PMC ball. I have a 15 round mag loaded with Winchester soft point for game. Javalina, rabid dogs and skunks. Either will work fine on two legged preditators.

Dave Markowitz
October 13, 2004, 08:35 PM
I own 182-series Mini-14 and an Underwood M1 Carbine, and previously an Iver Johnson M1. I like both designs.

Between the two, I'd take a Mini-14, so long as I'd be able to feed it from Ruger, Fed Ord, or PMI magazines (PMI made the FO mags). Good thing I have 9 PMIs. :)

The Ruger is more powerful than the .30 Carbine, ammo is cheaper, and the gun is Kalashnikov-reliable with good mags. It's also accurate enough for the job asked of it.

TrapperReady
October 13, 2004, 09:13 PM
If I had 25 acres, the only thing I'd be protecting it from would be grouse, pheasants and whitetail deer. Make mine a Winchester Model 12 in 12ga or 16ga.

If I had to pick between the choices you gave, then the Mini-14.

If I could pick anything, then it'd probably be a Winchester 94 in 30-30.

Roadkill Coyote
October 13, 2004, 09:17 PM
I'd sell my 25 acres and move to someplace with a better selection of guns for sale. Either that or get in the spirit of the scenario and set weird artificial conditions for what intruders could carry onto my land to even up the score.

Whiffle bats, I think.

M2 Carbine
October 13, 2004, 10:08 PM
I've got 20 acres and a few Carbines.
(had a Mini 14, don't want another)

Walking around in the woods, or where ever with the Carbine I feel well armed.:)

Of course if I expected buggers in the woods I'd probably have a bigger rifle or at least the M2 Carbine.:D

JohnKSa
October 13, 2004, 10:14 PM
I've got to say that's a very odd choice of rifles if you're really looking for one rifle to do it all. One of them isn't really even a rifle at all, and the other one (primarily because of caliber) doesn't really fill the bill for a general purpose rifle.

I'd say go ahead and get whichever you like and then the next time you can scrape together a few twenties, go get a beater Mosin Nagant variant with a good bore. Shoot your choice for fun and keep the M-N behind the door or seat--it's way more general purpose IMO.

twoblink
October 13, 2004, 11:21 PM
You are all talking about the SKS I SOLD right??

:rolleyes:

If there was a 'yote, my SKS would have hit the yot on the other guy's property. like 12 MOA is not really that handy..

rbernie
October 13, 2004, 11:41 PM
My Chinese SKS is about a 2"-3" @ 100 yards kinda rifle. But I've found that if I feed it crap, it shoots like crap. It's really partial to Barnaul 125gr softpoints.

With the proper ammo, it'll certainly outshoot a M1 Carbine or Mini14.

KarbineKrazy
October 13, 2004, 11:55 PM
Mini 14 is a great rifle.

just throw a muzzle break, bed the stock, do a trigger job on it. You'll throw 2 inch groups on paper at 100 yards, plenty accurate enough and you can do all that well under $100.

For high cap magazines, buy PMI, Ruger LEOs or Masen/BlackWarrior mags. Those are all very reliable mags and you shouldn't have any problems.

Don't badmouth the mini 14 till you try this combination. You'll be happy! You want any more info, or have any questions on the mini 14, shoot me an email.

MaceWindu
October 14, 2004, 12:41 AM
Suggestion:

Don't post anything about a Mini-14 here...lots of Mini-haters...The AR is the end all be all of carbines/rifles in the rifle forum..anything else is second place or not worthy...:rolleyes:


MaceWindu

sm
October 14, 2004, 12:49 AM
I'm in the Win 94 30-30 Camp . Since the 94 has a proven history of doing exactly what this post is all about.

I'm definitely in TrapperReady's Camp - Trapper - I like the way you think .

Win 94 , model 12 ...and gimme a model 70 in '06 ....Just Because.

Andrew Wyatt
October 14, 2004, 12:51 AM
Most people seem to have a problem figuring out what a mini-14 is for, they compare it to an ar-15 and pronounce it wanting, when they should probably compare it to an m-1 carbine,as a mini-14's rile is much closer to that of an m-1 carbine.

sm
October 14, 2004, 12:56 AM
Oh - forgot something....

EVERYBODY knows the guns Trapper and I reference are BLUE & WOOD ....just wanted to point out this is the way one properly takes cares of 25 acres.

:D

twoblink
October 14, 2004, 12:57 AM
If I went with a lever, it'd be in a .357Mag. Because that's just more logistical.. But I'd prefer a pump, so a Timberwolf is always on the menu.

I have been reading over at http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showforum=55

And it seems, for as said, retightening the gas system, and bedding the stock, filing down the trigger, etc.. for under $200, you can get it to 2MOA or less on a Mini 14. That's not bad at all..

The Kel-Tec Su-16 is a big consideration as well.. But for me, no AR's...

sm
October 14, 2004, 01:05 AM
twoblink,

Here in the South one can hardly get more "logstical" than a 30-30. I mean these things are in fillin' stations, bait shops,- heck- this time of year they grow wild on the side of the two lanes and served as side with Breakfast , Lunch , and Supper.

Hell just the other day I bought a soda from vending machine and rec'd two ctgs back as change.

:cool:

KarbineKrazy
October 14, 2004, 01:36 AM
Mace, I know the AR15 is a great carbine, believe me, I've shot them and I like them.

But the Mini 14 requires little maintenence to keep it running and it will do the job just dandy.

Plus the SKS is just so damned ugly.

The 30-30 or .357 Lever would be a good choice, can't argue against that, but seems he wants a semi auto.

MaceWindu
October 14, 2004, 01:46 AM
KarbineKrazy,


I was being as sarcastic as possible. I have a great Mini, posted some pics once and got chewed. You see a round from the god-like AR's will kill you or a coyote MORE than from a Mini....

BWAAAAAAHHAAHHAAAA...

MaceWindu

KarbineKrazy
October 14, 2004, 01:49 AM
buwahahaha!!!:p

Remember, I am still new here! Still feeling it out.

Clean97GTI
October 14, 2004, 01:54 AM
If you are considering a pistol caliber carbine, just call up Mech-Tech systems and get a Carbine Conversion Unit for a Glock 20. Some new standard capacity magazines and you've got a 15 shot 10mm, lightweight carbine. More oomph than a wimpy .357 mag...especially if you call Doubletap ammo.

Failing that, I don't know why you'd bother with a mini or an M1 Carbine. A simple AK design rifle would give you the rugged reliability as well as a powerful cartridge. If you don't like the AK idea, just get a better SKS.

cslinger
October 14, 2004, 11:04 AM
Mini 14s are reasonbly decent rifles but for the price I think there are better options.

You talk about adding $200 to build your Mini into what you want and you are up to what the $700 area. There are quite a few very nice options in that neighborhood.

Mini's are reliable, accurate enough for general work and would make a decent truck/pest gun. The problem I have is there cost has gotten to a point where other options are just more attractive.

I really think a nice lever action trapper length carbine in .30.30 is about the best all around utility rifle on the planet/shotguns not-withstanding.
Heck even a .357 magnum lever gun loaded with heavy bullets approaches .30 .30 territory and gives you more rounds.

From a price/performance/practicality point it is very hard to beat a solid Marlin or Winny lever gun. Not to mention you can pretty much find .30.30 and .357/.38 anyplace in the country from the city to podunk gulch nowhere.

My two cents. I am not a mini basher. I have never said they suck or they have no use etc. They are a reliable little ranch rifle in a decent caliber. I just think their bang for the buck value equation not quite as good as other options.

P.S. Mace's Mini is about the baddest mini I have ever seen and I am sure it is a hoot to shoot and if you are willing to spend the money on something like that then you will have a very unique, cool, awesome performing rifle. If you just want a utility gun get a good lever and be forget about everything else.

Chris

twoblink
October 14, 2004, 11:19 AM
If I owned a glock, then a glock conversion would be a decent option. But I don't... and I'd probably prefer a rifle round. If I went with a pistol round, the 357Mag would probably be the way to go since I already own a gun chambered in it.

If I owned a 30-30 already, then adding another 30-30 wouldn't be a problem, but I don't, and so a 30-30 lever would be a new action AND a new caliber, not logistical at all. Also, a Buffalo Bore 357Mag out of a 18" rifle, exceeds 30-30 specs; so I see absolutely no reason the consider the 30-30. A 357Mag will do everything a 30-30 does, and is much more logistical. So, ixna on the 30-30.

I would prefer a .223 for ranch caliber, and really hope for M16 mag compatibility.. Without it being an AR...

So, that would then open up to AR180B or Kel Tec SU-16.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106026

Yeah Yeah yeah, I'm anal, it's not a sin (yet) until Di Fi passes a law against it.. I'd like to maximize the gun/logistics/$$$ ratio... and it's not as easy as most people think...

The weight is also a factor, as I'd like it to be a gun my gf can use easily.. If weight wasn't an issue, I would be just using my M1A and calling it a day....

Bwana John
October 14, 2004, 11:46 AM
A 357Mag will do everything a 30-30 does

I disagree.

Andrew Wyatt
October 14, 2004, 01:11 PM
30-30(and 7.62X39) don't do what .223 does. .223 has a much flatter trajectory, with a 250 yard zero still allowing you to keep the bullet within four inches of the aiming point out to 300 yards.

Oleg Volk
October 14, 2004, 02:21 PM
Since Janie is short, wouldn't a 5.45 AK with a red dot and an extended safety lever solve the problem?

Of the carbine/Mini, I can see arguments for both...but consider both too unreliable.

Gewehr98
October 14, 2004, 04:20 PM
A 357Mag will do everything a 30-30 does

I envision seeing a lot of people dumping their worthless .30-30 leverguns based on that gem of wisdom. :rolleyes:

Do the math. Boffalo Bore's 180gr Heavy .357 Magnum clocks an average of 1848fps from a 16" Winchester 94 Ranger carbine. Data here:

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

Now, a 170gr .30-30 round, fired from a Winchester 94, gives 2100fps, per the Speer reloading manual. And it's a cleaner .30 caliber bullet, so it will shed velocity and energy less than the .358 bullet fired from the .357 Magnum rifle. So tell me again how a .357 Magnum will do everything a .30-30 does. :scrutiny:

(And I run 158gr .357 Magnum handloads over 1600 fps from my 6" Desert Eagle, so Buffalo Bore isn't on to anything new there...)

30-30(and 7.62X39) don't do what .223 does.

Andrew, you're absolutely correct. A .223 doesn't deliver the energy a .30 caliber, 150 or 170gr bullet does when launched from a lever rifle chambered in .30-30 Winchester. Example: 1664 ft pounds for a 170gr .30-30 at 100 yards, compared to 970 ft pounds at 100 yards from a 55gr .223 Remington bullet out of a 20" barrel AR-15.

So the poodleshooter cartridge has a flat trajectory, no problem. But it does have issues, which are being worked on as the military evaluates the 6.8 SPC. In the meantime, there's not a darned thing wrong with using a .30-30 Winchester to stop that which would threaten your existence.

Mannlicher
October 14, 2004, 04:52 PM
Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. Despite the continued bashing, I have found them to be utterly reliable, accurate enough for the job at hand, and easy to learn to shoot well. The .223 has MUCH more punch than the .30 Carbine.
'Course, I would opt for a M1A myself, but if you choose to limit your choices to those two, go with the Mini.

Andrew Wyatt
October 14, 2004, 06:21 PM
there's not a darned thing wrong with using a .30-30 Winchester to stop that which would threaten your existence.


8 round capacity, maximum ordinate of more than a foot at 300 yards and glacially slow loading?


it's nice to be able to load 20 rounds in one go, and not have to worry about lots of holdover on the kind of shots a ranch rifle is likely to make.

Gewehr98
October 14, 2004, 06:34 PM
8 round capacity and glacially slow loading?

it's nice to be able to load 20 rounds in one go.
If you can't make the first 8 rounds of .30-30 hit their mark. Or are we defending the farm against mutant undead zombie UN blue helmets marching down the dirt road in droves? Hope I'm not plagiarizing George Armstrong Custer, but a lever action Winchester in skilled hands can really wreck a person's day. ;)

Nippy
October 14, 2004, 08:46 PM
This thread has broken down into a philisophical argument:D

twoblink
October 14, 2004, 09:18 PM
The 30-30 is a good round.. If I'm within 100 yards, I'm probably not going to gain another caliber (30-30) over the .357Mag hothouse loads, because within the 100 yards, I'm probably not going to gain all that much more bang for the logistical problem increase (i.e. I might have a revolver on my hip in 357Mag, but probably won't have a 30-30 on my hip) So AGAIN, the 30-30 is not a consideration.

the .223 is a decent varmint round. So it is in the running for consideration.

The M1Carbine is small and light, but the round is really anemic. The round is the downfall of this otherwise great little gun. Probably of all the handy rifles, I think the M1Carbine points the most naturally..

The AR is horrible in theory, not too bad in practice.
The Mini 14 is excellent in theory, so so in execution.
The AR180B is excellent in theory, so so in QA/QC.
The SU-16 is light and handy, but is a "store a long time, shoot a little; not a shoot a long time, store a little"

Next up for investigation, the Saiga's.. The problem is, do I really want 8lb+ for a .223? The answer is probably a very big no..

ducktapehero
October 14, 2004, 10:56 PM
just call up Mech-Tech systems and get a Carbine Conversion Unit for a Glock 20. Some new standard capacity magazines and you've got a 15 shot 10mm, lightweight carbine. More oomph than a wimpy .357 mag...especially if you call Doubletap ammo.Wimpy 357?


Copied from the doubletap website

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : Gold Dot Lineup

Ballistics : 155gr. @ 1475fps /750ft/lbs - Glock 20



Copied and pasted from the Buffalo Bore Ammo website

357 Magnum Item No. 19D20 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)


If the 357 is considered wimpy then the 10mm also falls into the same category.

roscoe
October 15, 2004, 12:03 AM
Well, I love my Saiga in .223, and it sure doesn't feel too heavy. It is definitely heavier than a SU-16, but I don't think it is heavier than a Mini 14. They say high-caps are on the way, but with 12 rounds even now, it is pretty convincing to me.

I would also note that it is pretty accurate - I can keep em in the 10-ring on the 100 yard military target with ease (resting the forestock on a block).

twoblink
October 15, 2004, 12:08 AM
I've just noticed the Saiga comes in Synthetic.. Does that cut .5lbs?

Andrew Wyatt
October 15, 2004, 01:08 AM
If you can't make the first 8 rounds of .30-30 hit their mark. Or are we defending the farm against mutant undead zombie UN blue helmets marching down the dirt road in droves?

No, but we are talking about not making a load stroke 8 times to reload the gun.

sm
October 15, 2004, 01:29 AM
It is officical - I was born in the wrong Era.

How in the hell did we ever survive without , logistics, tactical, bling bling, poodleshooters, synthetic stocks and whatever else?

How in the hell did Carlos Hathcock make 93 confirmed kills with a Model 70 in '06? OMG ...he had to fire, turn a bolt , and repeat for each shot!

OMG , the Old West, John Wayne, all them deer , shoot and lever the gun...how did we ever make it?

I have babysat farm homes, with a Model 12 , a Model 94 and a Model 70...oh forgive me Father I have sinned... I plinked with a S&W Model 18 and A Colt Woodsman while out there...all alone, maybe a dog to keep me out of trouble. The "property" the house is on is only 480 acres - for one example. Across the road ...over 2k acres.

I could have been "kilt" - I was so stupid.

Well hell - at my age I hate change. Gimme the Wood&Blue 94 in 30-30. I don't care my ammo from a 1911 won't fit it....or vice versa.

49 , I ought to be hell on wheels in about 10 yrs - huh?
Am I elgible for Reprobate....where is Old Fuff - I need to ask him.

:) :)

Zeke Menuar
October 15, 2004, 04:57 AM
Give me an SKS. Prices are very low right now and ammo is dirt cheap.

The Mini-14 is really only suitable for use as a jackhandle.

ZM

Tamara
October 15, 2004, 07:20 AM
Gimme the Wood&Blue 94 in 30-30. I don't care my ammo from a 1911 won't fit it....or vice versa.

Although it is kinda fun knowing that the 625 on your hip holds six spares for the 94 Trapper in your hand. ;)

twoblink
October 16, 2004, 08:26 AM
Although it is kinda fun knowing that the 625 on your hip holds six spares for the 94 Trapper in your hand.

You aren't going soft on me now are you Tam??

sm, be thankful you remember the "good ol' days". When you can no longer remember where you put your dentures...

cracked butt
October 16, 2004, 08:12 PM
M1 carbine for everything out to 200 yards, mauser 96/98, '03 springfield, for the longrange work.

Or... you could just get a M1 Garand to cover everything.:D

Sven
October 16, 2004, 10:45 PM
M1 Carbine with the UltimAK rail and a IER scope... the men and ladies both love it!

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/m1_carbine/ultimak_carbine.jpg

NH AR Shooter
October 17, 2004, 04:59 AM
Of the two choices offered by the thread starter, I would take a good M1 carbine, loaded with softpoints, is plenty effective as a man stopper, has better sights then the mini, is lighter, has a better magazine setup, and is an actual military weapon, where as the mini is poor copy of a military rifle that is made by a company that doesn't believe people should have military type rifles or needs anything other then a five round mag.

Some people here have stated that the .223 is far more powerful than the .30 carbine, does a couple hundred foot pounds of energy really make it "far" more powerful? The .223 isnt exactly a powerhouse, Bullet constuction is important, good soft points make the carbine viable. Having shot both, and liking both, Niether are the end all, or do all, but both can be effective as defensive round.

Others have recommended 10mm carbines, which are less powerful then the 30 carbine, so I guess its all relative. I wouldnt want to be hit by any of these.

I think whats most important is that you become proficient with whatever you choose to carry, as a kid, I could hit anything with my carbine, It was a part of me. Whichever gun you get, shoot the heck out of it untill it becomes a part of you.

Jeff Timm
October 17, 2004, 06:47 AM
Dare I suggest the Deerfield, a Mini-14 in .44 Magnum?

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=6301&return=Y

Or the Mini-30

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1829&return=Y

Geoff
Who has fired a Carbine M-1 and owns a Mini-14.:cool:

4v50 Gary
October 17, 2004, 09:53 AM
My concern would be varmints (coyote & the like) and so my choice would be the Mini-14. I'd crop the barrel to 16.5" to make it more accurate.

M2 Carbine
October 17, 2004, 09:10 PM
The Carbine will do the job.:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CarbineUltiMax.jpg

schromf
October 17, 2004, 09:36 PM
I'll fall into the neither category.

For critter control why don't you look into a CZ527 in a 22 hornet? Perfect for the task and the bullet wont carry into the next county. If you want to shoot milsurp ammo get it chambered in the .223.

Ruger makes one also, but more dollars.

I know neither are very exciting but both will make a handly little ranch rifle that will get the job done.

If you want something newer look into the .204 or the 17 cal.

What are your pests? Skunks, yotes, and rodents? My mini-14 was never up to the task of varmit control, the gophers would need to be so fat they looked like basketballs. It was suitable for coyotes at 100 yds, beyond that forget it. Yes I sold it a long time ago.

twoblink
October 18, 2004, 04:29 AM
For me, I'm mentally prepared for Wiley as the biggest threat. I think a 30Carbine with softpoints will do Wiley @ 100 yards or so without problem.

I would however, like to be able to drop a perp @ 150yards effectively if need be..


Do they make jacketed hollow softpoints for the M1Carbine?

MrPink
October 18, 2004, 01:43 PM
I don't think anybody has mentioned this one:

How about a mini-30. All the power of an AK or 30-30. If you add an Ultimak rail, you can forward mount a scout scope for intermediate and longer distances or an Aimpoint/EOtech for close up.

Cortland
October 18, 2004, 04:11 PM
The AR180B is excellent in theory, so so in QA/QC.
The quality of my AR-180B is just fine, thank you. My AR-180B has the Armalite see-through mount with a red dot scope. Light, accurate, reliable, cheap ammo, cheap magazines -- If I had 25 acres, it's what I'd use to protect it!

Waffen
October 18, 2004, 04:24 PM
I would go with the Mini. I use one for my coon/fox gun when I go spotlighting and I am more than pleased with it. Last year I porbably took between 800-1000 varmits with it.

Accuracy is not going to be AR level, but its not suppose to be. The Mini-14 is a RANCH RIFLE, not a 500 yard powerlacking "battle rifle" like the AR. If all your shots are under 100 yards you should have no problem what so ever.

Many people consider the mini to be inaccurate, but what good is an sub MOA gun when you are shooting from a running truck, or shooting quick off-hand shots at varmit sized game??

In conculsion, get the Mini, find the ammo it likes, buy a couple of Ruger Factory 10rds or PMI 10,20,30, or 40rounds, get a bolt buffer and gas bushing, and you are way good to go.



Also, I have shot an M1 Carbine, and I love it. Infact it will be my next gun purchase, but the .30 carbine felt quite weak compaired to a .223. I would feel much more comfortable with the Mini in a varmit situation.

Paniolo808
October 18, 2004, 04:53 PM
For someone who protects 600 something acres, my trusty Ruger .44 is the perfect rifle. It will down any wild or loose dogs and also knock down any feral pigs that happen to be in the wrong place at the right time. My idea of a ranch rifle or truck gun means i wont be shooting at anything over 75 yards or so. My Ruger goes bang everytime and there is nothing like the slap that comes when you hit something with it. I think this gun is one of the most underrated truck or ranch guns around....



.02

Edit: BTW, im not a fan of the newer style from Ruger. A quick check on Gunbroker will get you a nice rifle for around 450 bucks...well worth it.

NH AR Shooter
October 20, 2004, 02:18 AM
One other reason I like the 30cal carbine, the 15 rd mags are such a handy size, you can put a 2 mag pouch on your belt, or on your carbines buttstock. One in the gun, two on your belt and your good to go with 45 rds.

Carbine mags also seem to fit better in pockets then most.

Back when I was kid, and was heading out to do some shooting, I used to just put a mag in each pocket, those were my pre-pouch days. ;)

adaman04
October 20, 2004, 11:13 AM
I have a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle and so does my dad. We have had zero problems with either of them. Better than the .30 cal in my opinion. I would go for the Mini.

twoblink
October 20, 2004, 11:09 PM
If I went Mini..

Mini 14 or Mini 30?

Solo
October 21, 2004, 12:23 AM
GEt Both!:D

Kevlarman
October 21, 2004, 12:31 AM
Then he'd have a Mini-44! :D

Duke of Lawnchair
October 21, 2004, 12:49 AM
Then he'd have a Mini-44!

Or he'd have a Mini-22 (average of the two).

Onmilo
October 21, 2004, 11:23 AM
How about an M114 Mini Carbine?

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