C&R Definition


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sumpnz
October 13, 2004, 11:04 PM
Do any of you know how the BATFE determines which guns are C&R? I know pretty much anything mil-surplus will likely fall under that catagory, but what about "sporting" (I hate that term) guns like Winchester M70s. E.g. my FIL has a pre-64 M70 (probably a 61 or 62). Would that qualify, or would it have to be older, and by how much?

Also, one I get my C&R would I be able to aquire any C&R eligable gun directly while out of my home state, or would it have to be shipped to me?

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JBP
October 13, 2004, 11:51 PM
Link to BATF C&R info. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm)

Valkman
October 14, 2004, 01:04 AM
50 years old is the general rule, but it's best to go by the list on their website. My Yugo SKS was made in '79 as far as I can tell yet it was eligible - I don't know why but I'm glad!

If you keep a copy of your license with you you should be able to buy them directly, if the store deals that way. I've heard some won't but I can't even remember who it was about. At any gun store you'd be able to buy one. If you're eligible to have it shipped then I don't know why you wouldn't be able to take it with you.

jefnvk
October 14, 2004, 01:59 AM
Generally, anything 50 years old (relic, and in the condition it was in 50 years ago), and anything of collector value (curio). Yugo SKS falls under curio status, it was a military arm of value to collectors.

No4Mk1
October 14, 2004, 02:22 AM
To clarify a bit, if it was manufactured 50 years ago it is a relic, regardless of condition, configuration, etc.. If it is on "the list" that is put out by the BATFE, it is a Curio. See Here. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm) Some items on "the list" are listed as "original military configuration" (or some such), but others are not. You have to look at each case individually. You must also consider other laws and regs regarding the imporation of firearms, so this part is rarely simple....

As for using the C&R out of state, you should be able to purchase a C&R firearm anywhere in the US using your license. Doing so practically may be another matter as many dealers are not as familiar with C&R's and may not accept them for FTF purchases.

EOD Guy
October 14, 2004, 10:57 AM
Generally, as others have said, either on the list or made more than 50 years ago. For example, the Model 70 Winchester if made in or before 1963 is on the list and is considered a C&R.

Also, there is no legal separation between curios and relics. All the regulations refer to is curio and relic firearms.

sumpnz
October 14, 2004, 02:25 PM
Thanks for all the info guys. All the more reason to get my C&R. I'm going to be moving to Phoenix soon, so I'll probably wait to apply until we're settled in the new house. But soon as that's done, the paperwork will be in the mail!

STORMIN29
October 14, 2004, 06:55 PM
Don't forget to send a copy of your C&R to companies such as Brownells, etc. that give 20-25% discounts for license holders. I have saved alot of money using it .

No4Mk1
October 14, 2004, 07:12 PM
No kidding! MidwayUSA too! My C&R paid for itself twice over with my first Midway order after sending it in to them.....

Notch
October 14, 2004, 08:21 PM
A letter recently sent to a collector from the ATF states that ANYTHING over 50 years old is a c&r. Once it is 50 its c&r.

sumpnz
October 14, 2004, 08:26 PM
Yeah, I know all about the discounts. That's a big part of why I want to get it.

How long has is taken most of you guys to get yours? As I understand it, 2-6 months is pretty typical, and can depend on which ATF office handles the application.

Jim K
October 14, 2004, 11:11 PM
Other than the "over 50" rule, BATFE does not by itself place any item on the C&R list. They do so only when someone writes them requesting that such-and-such a gun be put on the C&R list because of some feature which makes of greater collector interest than similar guns without that feature. Quite often, those requests are made by people who have a quantity of such guns and want to make them available to collectors without the hassle of going through dealers. BATFE can and does turn down such requests when it feels that the justification for C&R status is not sufficient, or that the gun is too common to be considered a collectible.

That is why the list contains items like "Harrington & Richardson Trapdoor Springfield carbine, .45-70 caliber, 100th Anniversary Little Big Horn Commemorative, manufactured between 1973-1981." That gun is not covered by the 50-year rule, but is on the C&R list.

Jim

EOD Guy
October 15, 2004, 10:57 AM
I'd like to add one thing to Jim's post. A lot of people wonder why firearms over 50 years old are on the C&R list when the 50 year rule would cover them. The reason is that BATF may add firearms periodically, but they almost never remove them from the list. The list was first made as a result of GCA 68 and many firearms put on the original list have aged past the 50 year point.

Also, some older firearms are put on the list in order to remove them from the provisions of the NFA. An example of one such firearm recently put on the list is:

"Marlin, Model 1893, caliber .30-30, serial number C2231, with 15 inch barrel". This is a short barrel rifle which was subject to the NFA.

A lot of handguns with smooth bores or attachable shoulder stocks are on the list for that reason.

rritter
October 15, 2004, 04:25 PM
Just a note, though - just because an NFA firearm is on the C&R list doesn't necessarily mean it's exempt from the NFA requirements. A 1939 full-auto Thompson is a C&R weapon, but it's also an NFA weapon and you must satisfy the NFA requirements in order to purchase or possess it. The official C&R list has a separate section for C&R NFA firearms, and the notations in that section of the manual make it clear that all requirements of the NFA still apply.

Roger

jefnvk
October 15, 2004, 05:22 PM
Also, there is no legal separation between curios and relics.

I'm sorry if I made that impression. Just trying to say how it was explainde to me, that there two different types of weapons put into this group.

Other than the "over 50" rule, BATFE does not by itself place any item on the C&R list. They do so only when someone writes them requesting that such-and-such a gun be put on the C&R list because of some feature which makes of greater collector interest than similar guns without that feature. Quite often, those requests are made by people who have a quantity of such guns and want to make them available to collectors without the hassle of going through dealers.

As an example of this, if you look at the ATF list, many models have specific serial numbers listed.

EOD Guy
October 15, 2004, 05:44 PM
Just a note, though - just because an NFA firearm is on the C&R list doesn't necessarily mean it's exempt from the NFA requirements. A 1939 full-auto Thompson is a C&R weapon, but it's also an NFA weapon and you must satisfy the NFA requirements in order to purchase or possess it. The official C&R list has a separate section for C&R NFA firearms, and the notations in that section of the manual make it clear that all requirements of the NFA still apply.

The NFA may or may not still apply, depending on what section of the list the firearm is located. Sections III and IIIA contain items that have been removed from the NFA as collector's items. Section IV has firearms that are still under the NFA and have been classified as C&R firearms.

Section III items are mostly AOW's, short barrel rifles and shotguns, smooth bore handguns, and handguns with detachable shoulder stocks. Section IV items are mostly destructive devices and automatic firearms.

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