Twoblink's Ranch Rifle


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cslinger
October 14, 2004, 12:29 PM
Ok so I gather we have the following requirements.

Legality in CA doesn't matter.
It must be magazine fed.
It must be a suitably logistic caliber, .223 or .308 being the top choices.
It must be acceptably accurate but not at tack driver.
Based on his choices, it seems he wants it to have a hint of evil in it.
We want to keep the cost down for ammo, gun, and accessories.


I submit to you a VEPR K in .223 or a SAIGA in .308.

Both are in the $350-$550 range.
Both use ammo that is falls into your logistics requirement.
Both are acceptably accurate out of the box, with the nod to the VEPR.
Both have 20-30 round magazines available.
Both have built in scope mounts that allow for use of iron sights as well.
Both have Excellent world class scopes and red dots available for inexpensive prices (POSP scopes, PK-AS, PK-01V red dots.)
The VEPR K is reasonably short.
Both have that evil cache' to them.
Both will be reliable in any conditions or with most abuse.
Both are so far from an AR-15 that it is not even funny.
Both are so simple to clean it is not even funny.
Neither require a whole heck of a lot of cleaning in the first place.
Both will shoot any bullet weight or type you can come up with.
Both will easily shoot 100 yards with reasonable accuracy.
Both have good quality aftermarket peep sights available if desired and the sights are reasonably cheap. $50 or so.
Both will hold zero with the detachible scopes and the iron sights unless you run over them with a Tank.
Both will stand up to extremes of temperature.
Both use COMBAT tested actions.


So what's not to like.


Sounds like a perfect fit to me.

Chris

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Bwana John
October 14, 2004, 12:57 PM
He still hasent said what he is protecting aganst, I gessin a select fire AK with a folding stock might be the best tool.

cslinger
October 14, 2004, 01:01 PM
Actually I still stand by my Lever thutty thutty or .357 for overall utility.

Well if the ground is really flat and we open this up to select fire how about something on a mount. Maybe a nice Browning .30 caliber or say FN MAG or Minimi. That way he could take care of everything from the comfort of his front porch sitting in a nice chair sipping a mint julip or something like that. :D

Skunkabilly
October 14, 2004, 03:29 PM
Is it light enough and have a short LOP for Janie?

cslinger
October 14, 2004, 03:44 PM
If it is not go with a .223 AK varient from AKUSA or Arsenal. They are most assuredly light enough, have all the benefits listed above and can be had with either the standard short AK stock or an the longer Americanized one. The standard AK stock and rifle is very short and handy IMO.

Harry Tuttle
October 14, 2004, 04:12 PM
howz about a kalashkikov in 6.8SPC?
:evil:

PMDW
October 14, 2004, 05:02 PM
http://www.jda.go.jp/e/policy/soubi/riku/riku2a.gif

My vote.

TechBrute
October 14, 2004, 06:26 PM
Since when did we start referring to a measly 25 acres as a ranch? 25000 acres... sure.

:D :neener: :D

Redlg155
October 14, 2004, 08:14 PM
I vote for the .308 Saiga, but with the PG conversion.


Good Shooting
Red

twoblink
October 14, 2004, 10:26 PM
Specs:

6lbs or less so my gf can tote it.
preferably takes .223
preferably semi-auto
has hi-cap mags available
preferably M16 mag compatible
for a ranch gun, I'd prefer a straight stock, not a pistol grip, but not that big of a deal
easy and reliable gas system
accuracy, 2MOA from stance
can sustain probably 100 rounds of firing continuously and still maintain 2-3 MOA or so.

most of you will say that looks like the specs for an AR ultralight shorty.. Except, I don't believe in AR's. (what's there not to believe? trust me, don't start..)

So far, not a single gun has all the these seemingly simple requirements. The SU-16 comes close, but not really designed for prolonged engagements, and I question even the gas structure being polymer.

The AR180B so far, fits specs, but the QA/QC problems leaves me a little uneasy.

The Mini14 requires an additional $150 or so for accurizing.

The M1 Carbine won't drop a guy at 150 yards.

I cannot be, the only person, who have asked for these requirements. And, of course, I blame it on blindfolded zealot lemming gun owners for all of this. They blindly embrace systems that are vastly inferior, and do not put pressure on the manufacturers to produce and improve.

I was just flipping through the webpages, $1500 for a 1911? Yeah, that's real progress..
Vast suggestions of me buying a gun that barfs where it eats? I don't think so.. and I always get quotes like "Well, if it's good enough for the military".. and I laugh, and say, "find me a soldier who doesn't think most Generals have their heads up their rear ends..." and these guys were the ones that decided on the M16's right??

I'm gonna keep looking.. if my search for a good ranch gun is annoying everybody, I apologize for the annoyance; but what I don't apologize for, is settling on inferior guns and calling it a day.

Harry Tuttle
October 14, 2004, 10:37 PM
vepr pioneer:
http://www.molot.net/product-e/vepr-pioner.jpg
http://www.molot.net/product-e/vpion.php

http://club.guns.ru/eng/vepr.html

JohnKSa
October 15, 2004, 12:25 AM
Try a CETME. My wife tried one awhile back--her first time to shoot a centerfire rifle--it sure put a smile on her face.

another48hrs
October 15, 2004, 12:37 AM
Somebody needs a Daewoo DR200. Come on a guy from the ROC with a rifle from the ROK.:D

6lbs or less so my gf can tote it. (7lbs, whats 1 extra pound?)
preferably takes .223 (check)
preferably semi-auto (check)
has hi-cap mags available (check)
preferably M16 mag compatible (check)
for a ranch gun, I'd prefer a straight stock, not a pistol grip, but not that big of a deal (It has a thumbhole)
easy and reliable gas system (Gas Piston ran)
accuracy, 2MOA from stance
can sustain probably 100 rounds of firing continuously and still maintain 2-3 MOA or so. (I've heard of great accuracy, but no hands on or witnessed with my own eyes)

twoblink
October 15, 2004, 12:53 AM
Daewoo? I will take a look. Again, I have no blind loyalities.

CETME? Will take a look as well.

Can I get a synthetic stock and cut .5lbs off of that?

El Rojo
October 15, 2004, 01:50 AM
Couldn't he build a low budget AR for about $550? I paid $325 shipped for my Bushmaster 11.5/5.5 A2 upper with B/BC/CH and I bet he could get a complete lower with buttstock for less than or close to $225. Every PRK refuge need an AR.

twoblink
October 15, 2004, 01:52 AM
El Rojo, NO AR's..

The Daewoo's look great, but it seems like buying a car with no spare parts available if something goes wrong... (sigh)...

RevDisk
October 15, 2004, 04:20 AM
I'd go with cslinger's suggestion. The AK47 is one of the most reliable designs, and VEPR's line is rather accurate. Personally, I like 7.62x39mm for plinking, but .308 would add some definite power. .223 isn't my favorite, but it does work.

Oleg Volk
October 15, 2004, 04:23 AM
CETNE/G3 is out due to the strength required to cycle the bolt. Janie may have trouble with it. It is also very front-heavy.

twoblink
October 15, 2004, 04:44 AM
I remember CSlinger's VEPR. Heavy heavy heavy..

but worth checking out..

How's the accuracy on that?

Dionysusigma
October 15, 2004, 05:00 AM
What about a SAR-3/WASR-3?

6lbs or less so my gf can tote it. Check... kinda
preferably takes .223 Check.
preferably semi-auto Check.
has hi-cap mags available Check.
preferably M16 mag compatible Not quite...
for a ranch gun, I'd prefer a straight stock, not a pistol grip, but not that big of a deal Not quite...
easy and reliable gas system Check.
accuracy, 2MOA from stance Check... kinda
can sustain probably 100 rounds of firing continuously and still maintain 2-3 MOA or so. Check... kinda

If you up the budget to $1400, you could go for a Vector V-53...
http://www.hkpro.com/image/HK53A3left.jpg
(except semi-only and maybe not SBRed)
http://www.vectorarms.com/guns/hk_rifles.htm

6lbs or less so my gf can tote it. Check.
preferably takes .223 Check.
preferably semi-auto Check.
has hi-cap mags available Check.
preferably M16 mag compatible Not quite...
for a ranch gun, I'd prefer a straight stock, not a pistol grip, but not that big of a deal Not quite...
easy and reliable gas system Check... kinda
accuracy, 2MOA from stance Check.
can sustain probably 100 rounds of firing continuously and still maintain 2-3 MOA or so. Check.

twoblink
October 15, 2004, 05:43 AM
I have to add, "right and left hand friendly"

Bushmaster makes a bullpup... that would have been great, except brass in the eyeball ruins the day...

cslinger
October 15, 2004, 10:46 AM
VEPRs are very accurate.

VEPR Ks are lighter but VEPRs are on the porky side.

If weight and length is on of the main issues. Any of the well made AK varients in .223 would do you very well. They clock in just over your weight requirement at about 7-7.5 pounds but are very short and the better made AKs are more than accurate enough for your needs and have the added ability to take optics with ease.

Saigas are cheap, reliable, reasonably accurate and have no pistol grip. They are a bit on the long side though which makes them feel heavier than they are.

I still think a good lever gun is the way to go.

Pre 64 Winchester Cowboy Tactical Rifle. I would feel very well armed with this.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/212493.jpg

ny32182
October 15, 2004, 11:25 AM
If the emotional detachment from ARs is to much to overcome, the second best choice is a SAR-1. Nothing else really fits the bill.

I have a VEPR K, and let me tell you... its a beast. Probably not GF-friendly as far as the weight goes. It is very accurate for an AK style rifle though.

BeLikeTrey
October 15, 2004, 11:55 AM
I think it's a great rifle and damn nice to shoot. High caps available, combat proven, well a little heavy for your woman maybe, but it tames recoil. Accurate as I want and a darned nice rifle.

BeLikeTrey
October 15, 2004, 11:58 AM
:D
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1295942

cslinger
October 15, 2004, 12:00 PM
Course there is always that itty bitty little SOCOM. My wife really likes that thing. Course $1500.00 is starting to approach crack smoking prices but hey what do I know.

twoblink
October 15, 2004, 12:14 PM
I already own one of these:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/rifles/NationalMatch.jpg

Too heavy..

My gf is 5'2" people......

Harry Tuttle
October 15, 2004, 01:04 PM
GF is tiny

Buy her a 3.9 pound Bushmaster "lady"
and Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the AR15
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/carbon15/Images/az-c15r21c.jpg

TallPine
October 15, 2004, 02:07 PM
Just what kind of Boogers do you expect to have running around this "ranch" ...?

(mutant ninja porcupines??????)

How about an NEF single shot 410 shotgun? :p

another48hrs
October 15, 2004, 03:00 PM
Yeah, Daewoo parts are pretty much not there. The only way around this that I see is that people are buy two DR200s and they have either as a spare or parts loaner. I haven't done the research, but look for the parts that you need to get from a Daewoo and which ones you can switch out with AR15 parts, so you have a better idea of what parts are available.

But buying two DR200s is getting you up to a grand and more, so if it gets to there I think you might as well wait for the XCR. At least you know there'll be a company that you can bug if things go wrong.

And the only way to keep the weight down is to go either polymer or aluminum.

zpo
October 15, 2004, 11:09 PM
Slap an HK upper on an AR, would that fix the anti AR problem? The HK is a piston upper.

TechBrute
October 15, 2004, 11:28 PM
The HK is a piston upper. Last I heard they were being made of unobtanium. Has something changed?

zpo
October 15, 2004, 11:49 PM
?
Are you questioning the materials, or making a vaporware joke?

TechBrute
October 16, 2004, 12:07 AM
They aren't vaporware: they exist. However, you can't get one, and at this point, it's uncertain whether they will even be available to peasants... er... civilians.

zpo
October 16, 2004, 12:12 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't someone very anti AR make a "if I built an AR" thread that had a bunch of parts that changed the design quite a bit?
Was it George Hill? I don't know what it is about the AR twoblink doesn't like, but there are lots of companies that have probably solved his problem, since it isn't caliber related. I just assumed it was the next big problem, the gas system. Has anyone else made piston upper for the AR?

zpo
October 16, 2004, 12:18 AM
Found it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66319&highlight=built+AR15

Does the suggestions clear up your dislike of the AR, or is it a hopeless cause?
I'm not trying to convert you for the sake of conversion, it just might be you haven't explored all the options that can replace what you don't like. Of course,
the mods might be to expensive.

mustanger98
October 16, 2004, 01:16 AM
How about an NEF single shot 410 shotgun?

Ahhh, the pinnacle of simplicity and dependability. I just had a thought- the HandiRifle (they make a ladies/youth version) in .233; add an adjustable peep sight (may require change of front sights) or scope. Should take care of anything you need to kill with one shot. It has the ejector so it's a fast reload. You can carry ten rounds or so on a shell carrier on the stock.

Patrol your 25 acres with one of these: (pic of A10)

Yeah, and with your "truck gun" you can strafe the boogers and your cows all at once. Along with the neighbors. 25acres ain't that big.

FWIW, I've heard of some small ladies shooting M-14s and M1 Garands, but it she's tried it and don't like it...

another48hrs
October 16, 2004, 02:20 AM
Has anyone else made piston upper for the AR?

I don't know about before, but now there are four people I know of that are making gas piston AR15s. HK (unobtanium, lol), KKF, Leitner Wise, and POF USA.

twoblink
October 16, 2004, 09:30 AM
KKF is definitely a posibility. But doesn't that still leave the main spring in the buttstock?

What bothers me about the AR (the short short short version)

The gas system (would you appreciate it if God built your rear end the same place he built your mouth??)
The extractor (have you seen how small that thing is??)
The main spring in the buttstock
the forward assist I refer to as "the tumor of uselessness"

If those 4 main problems are addressed, I'd take an AR. but then, it probably won't be called an AR.

Is the XM8 my answer??

Harry Tuttle
October 16, 2004, 10:09 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1297630

Kaylee
October 16, 2004, 11:48 AM
The gas system (would you appreciate it if God built your rear end the same place he built your mouth??)


Enh. It works. Folks have been coming out with piston-based conversions for decades now and it's never really caught on. If it was such an all-fired problem as it's made out to be on gun boards, those modifications would have exploded on the scene twenty years ago. The fact that they remain a tiny segment of the market (when they don't fail completely) should tell you something.

(And God put another input right next to my rear end, and it works just fine, thank you. ;) )


The extractor (have you seen how small that thing is??)
Have you seen how small a .223 case head is?
I just opened up my AR for the heck of it. The extractor covers nearly a whole fricken' QUARTER of the case head diameter. In terms of relative (and possibly absolute, don't have one to check at the moment) it's larger with more engagement area than an M14 extractor. Look at the dern thing yourself. :)

Incidentally, the G36/XM8 uses the same frikin' bolt and nearly identical carrier functionality as the AR. So if you're gonna knock the one, you gotta knock the other. :)


The main spring in the buttstock
So you don't like FALs either?
Sure, if you want a folding stock I can see the point.. the fact that you're looking at Mini's and SU-16 tells me that's not the issue.


Anyhow, both the gas impringment system and buttstock buffer spring are elements of the in-line recoil system that even in very light weapons reduces felt recoil to well.. basically zilch. You don't like it, that's fine.. but it's that way for a reason, and it works as designed. :)


the forward assist I refer to as "the tumor of uselessness"
Flat-sided uppers exist.. DPMS makes one I know of.

-K


To the original question though.. I'll agree with the sentiment that for a general-purpose carrying-around rifle in wide open country, a decent bolt or levergun fits the bill just perfect. My personal choice would be a little compact bolt gun in something right around .243 -- .223 if you insist on "logisticality" and she ain't planning on large game hunting with it -- but there's a whole lot of room for personal preference there.

Getting into intermediate-chambered, mag-fed semi-autos is getting more into the real of fighting tools or toys, which seems to me another niche entirely. Given your requirements, I'd agree with the "learn to stop worrying and love the AR" perspective, but Lordy knows there's plenty of options to choose from. :)

zpo
October 16, 2004, 09:01 PM
And God put another input right next to my rear end, and it works just fine, thank you.


:giggle:

gaston_45
October 16, 2004, 09:22 PM
I am sitting here with my trusty SU-16 and the gas system is most assuredly NOT plastic! All the working parts are steel with the exception of the reciever extension that attaches the barrel, this is alluminium.

The extra parts are plastic but they don't take any stress so it really isn't an issue unless you plan on repeatedly butt stroking the mutant ninja badgers into submission. Oh, one nifty feature is the fore end halves swing down to form a pretty handy bipod, saves the almost 100 dollars a Harris pod would cost you. The other nifty thing is you can store the two factory magazines or one 30 round magazine in the buttstock, handy for keeping fast reloads close.

cslinger
October 17, 2004, 02:20 AM
The other nifty thing is you can store the two factory magazines or one 30 round magazine in the buttstock, handy for keeping fast reloads close.

Ya know you can do that with AR15s with a stock change. Sorry just being evil devils advocate to Twoblink. :D


Chris

zpo
October 17, 2004, 02:22 AM
Which stock(s)?

cslinger
October 17, 2004, 02:32 AM
It's called a RASE stock. Holds an extra 30 rounder.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/rase_stock.html

Chris

twoblink
October 17, 2004, 03:10 AM
cslinger, I have decided you will be customer #1 when I open up my own armoury, and produce an "Anti-AR" gun. :D

m14nut
October 17, 2004, 09:06 AM
How about a simple SKS in the "paratrooper configuration. Someone used to market them as the "cowboy companion".

gaston_45
October 17, 2004, 09:37 PM
Ah yes cslinger, but the SU-16 does it without it looking like a 12 year old took a hack saw to your stock. :p

The SU also lacks the twangy banjo thought inducing recoil spring in the buttstock, definately not a rifle for skunky.

Gabe
October 17, 2004, 11:51 PM
Too heavy..

My gf is 5'2" people......


Get a bigger gf.

Seriously, get a 357 lever. You already have a military type rifle, a levergun can be more social than having only military weapons on your land.

Schuey2002
October 18, 2004, 01:25 AM
Is the XM8 my answer??
Yep.

Do you know where I can find one?

:p

twoblink
October 18, 2004, 05:33 AM
For those of you who PM'ed me with suggestions of 308 FAL's, thank you. BUT, I guess you have no clue what a 5'2" woman looks like?

If my gf was Kaylee, then fine. I think 6lbs is gonna seriously be the top, maybe 6.5lbs.

The lever is under heavy consideration, most have testified to their handiness...

m14nut
October 18, 2004, 07:45 AM
http://www.4wd.com/forums/images/smiles/brows.gif I guess you have no clue what a 5'2" woman looks like? http://www.4wd.com/forums/images/smiles/brows.gif

Oh, yes we do!!!!!:neener:

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