Drjones
February 24, 2003, 05:06 PM
I know the terrorists hate us and our way of life, and want to kill us all.
But why?
But why?
WHY do the terrorists hate us?
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Jeeper
February 24, 2003, 05:35 PM
One word
Israel.
Israel.
Poodleshooter
February 24, 2003, 05:46 PM
1. They have been told by their media and their religious and political leaders that we are the reason that they live in poverty and misery.
2. We have been demonized by being associated with Israel (the evil Jews). They cry foul about our foreign aid to Israel, while ignoring the billions we give to other middle eastern nations.
3. We are seen as repressing Arab/Islamic culture, and subverting their children with our culture and values. Islamic parents don't like seeing their kids walk around talking about converting to Christianity or Hinduism, drinking CocaCola and listening to Britney Spears.
4. We are of different races, and have different religious values from the majority of them (for the most part).
5. Though we have tendencies toward socialism and authoritarianism, we still tend to be classically liberal and tolerant politically and socially. Their cultures stress conformity, authoritarianism and family values. They find the values as expressed by our movies and pop culture to be abhorent and deviant. They assume that we are all that way.
Bottomline, there is the perception that we are making their lives the craphole that they are, killing their kids,etc. They're angry and frustrated and they see us having a great time while doing all the things that their leaders say they shouldn't do. It's no wonder that they're pissed.
2. We have been demonized by being associated with Israel (the evil Jews). They cry foul about our foreign aid to Israel, while ignoring the billions we give to other middle eastern nations.
3. We are seen as repressing Arab/Islamic culture, and subverting their children with our culture and values. Islamic parents don't like seeing their kids walk around talking about converting to Christianity or Hinduism, drinking CocaCola and listening to Britney Spears.
4. We are of different races, and have different religious values from the majority of them (for the most part).
5. Though we have tendencies toward socialism and authoritarianism, we still tend to be classically liberal and tolerant politically and socially. Their cultures stress conformity, authoritarianism and family values. They find the values as expressed by our movies and pop culture to be abhorent and deviant. They assume that we are all that way.
Bottomline, there is the perception that we are making their lives the craphole that they are, killing their kids,etc. They're angry and frustrated and they see us having a great time while doing all the things that their leaders say they shouldn't do. It's no wonder that they're pissed.
Boats
February 24, 2003, 05:47 PM
They are invariably "people" who take their "victimization" to its "logical" end by "fighting back" against their "tormentors."
If they had half a clue, they'd be blowing up the movie and television studios in Hollywood, which are much more the sharp end of the spear of the Americanization of their "culture" than Wall Street is.
If they had half a clue, they'd be blowing up the movie and television studios in Hollywood, which are much more the sharp end of the spear of the Americanization of their "culture" than Wall Street is.
Waitone
February 24, 2003, 05:54 PM
If you refer to Islamofascist terrorists, they hate not just Israel and the US, but everyone else who is not Wahabi Islamist. In short the hate everyone other than them who breathes.
Their proximate hatred is directed toward Israel because they are a Jewish culture and they hate the US because we are a derivative of the Jewish culture, Christian. The war in which we are engaged against Islamofascist terrorists is a religious war. The US is only party to not officially admit to it.
I heard an author say we thought Hitler was a nut because he wanted to kill a few million Jews. We thought Stalin was a nut because he wanted to kill a few tens of millions of Jews and his own people. Now we are faced with a religion (Wahabi Islam) that wants to kill 6 billion people including Jews, Americans, Buddists, Hindus, Animists, etc.
Truly a sick, sick religion.
Their proximate hatred is directed toward Israel because they are a Jewish culture and they hate the US because we are a derivative of the Jewish culture, Christian. The war in which we are engaged against Islamofascist terrorists is a religious war. The US is only party to not officially admit to it.
I heard an author say we thought Hitler was a nut because he wanted to kill a few million Jews. We thought Stalin was a nut because he wanted to kill a few tens of millions of Jews and his own people. Now we are faced with a religion (Wahabi Islam) that wants to kill 6 billion people including Jews, Americans, Buddists, Hindus, Animists, etc.
Truly a sick, sick religion.
Bruce H
February 24, 2003, 06:14 PM
They hate themselves. They hate themselves because no matter how much they have they don't have what we have. They don't have the freedom to come and go and do pretty much what ever they want without some dictator or religeous fanatic being in their face. They feel their life has no meaning so they might as well strike a blow ending theirs and be remembered by their hate filled associates.
Pendragon
February 24, 2003, 06:16 PM
I think it is important to understand that they hate us not for wat we did, but because it is who they are.
Their radical religon tells them that we need to convert or be killed. And often, it is be killed or convert, then be killed.
It really is that simple.
We are freedom loving Americans and we hate Hitler and all like him not because of what he did to us so much as because of who we are. Tyranny and oppression offend us and we find it intolerable.
I think that is about how they see us.
Their radical religon tells them that we need to convert or be killed. And often, it is be killed or convert, then be killed.
It really is that simple.
We are freedom loving Americans and we hate Hitler and all like him not because of what he did to us so much as because of who we are. Tyranny and oppression offend us and we find it intolerable.
I think that is about how they see us.
Tim Burke
February 24, 2003, 06:19 PM
Waitone & Pendragon have it. They hate us because we are infidels. We have 3 choices.
1) Convert
2) Let them kill us
3) Fight
I've made my choice.
1) Convert
2) Let them kill us
3) Fight
I've made my choice.
Gary H
February 24, 2003, 06:19 PM
Because they are an educated, tollerant, progressive, affluent, peaceful people. It's just that they can't seem to borrow any money and that has them really ticked off.
Hkmp5sd
February 24, 2003, 06:20 PM
There is a new book out that I highly recommend in relation to terrorists. The High Cost of Peace: How Washington's Middle East Policy Left America Vulnerable to Terrorism by Yossef Bodansky.
Bodansky is the director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, director of research at the International Strategic Studies Association and is a senior editor for the Defense and Foreign Affairs group of publications.
Bodansky is the director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, director of research at the International Strategic Studies Association and is a senior editor for the Defense and Foreign Affairs group of publications.
benewton
February 24, 2003, 06:28 PM
Do not know, and do not much care, about the why's.
Seems to me that they would like to kill me, for whatever reason they might have.
Gotta fall back on the old 70's soldier's motto:
"Kill them all! Let God sort them out!"
And, by their voices, I think they'd like that.
Seems to me that they would like to kill me, for whatever reason they might have.
Gotta fall back on the old 70's soldier's motto:
"Kill them all! Let God sort them out!"
And, by their voices, I think they'd like that.
geekWithA.45
February 24, 2003, 06:56 PM
Islamofascists;
Ya, someone trying to kill you tends to clarify your thinking.
I have compassion for my less fortunate brothers.
Really. I do.
As a decent human being, I can understand that living a tortured, mind twisted existence will tend to make a man bitter and violent.
I understand that living without the necessities, or food, or hope will can make one lash out at whoever they think their tormenters are.
After all, happy people with hope for the future generally don't blow themselves up.
I care for their plight. I really do. Some of their grievances might even be legitimate.
But the fact is, all of the above does not let them off the hook. It does not excuse them one bit. Not overcoming the circumstances of their environment is not an excuse for becoming a sh__t of a human being.
And another thing? That's not my problem.
Really. It isn't.
It is absolutely NOT my responsibility to see to their food, shelter, safety, and wellbeing. It is theirs.
If they seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it isn't my job to give it to them. The must make that for themselves, and find what Karen Armstrong calls "their own peace with the modern spirit".
(Yeah, I know...we give them all sortsa aid, both out of enlightened self interest, and genuine humanitarianism...and look what we get in return)
But, since they've seen fit to mark me as an infidel, capitalist pig, and fair target in their holy war, THAT makes it my problem. I take it personally. Personally enough that I have a .45 strapped to my butt. Personally enough that I'm gonna throw in a little bonus with my tax money this year, for the dept of defense.
(Yeah, I know, they don't know me from adam, and they're never gonna attack beaverBoff NJ, but that isn't the point. This land, and these people are MINE. They'll haveta go through my portly self first to get them.)
It's really simple: If you want to play in the civilized world, the bare minimum ante to get into the game is 3 simple rules that even the biggest moron can understand:
1) You're not allowed to kill people.
If you try, don't be surprised if people kill you back. Beating people up, raping them, and so forth also fits under this category. It's the same thing, in different degrees. Try to kill us, beat us, rape us, you're fair game, pal.
2) You're not allowed to take people's stuff.
Get your own stuff, and do it honorably. If you do decide to risk your life to take my stuff, don't be surprised if it doesn't work out too well for you.
3) You can try to convince me of whatever ya want, but ya haveta take NO for an answer.
As in NO, I won't convert to your religion, NO, I won't have my wife and daughter circumcised, and NO, I will NOT stop doing my own thing, my own pursuit of freedom and happiness.
And furthermore, I LIKE looking at "decadent" women on the beach wearing bikinis. It is their right to reveal their beauty in any way they see fit, and my right to appreciate said beauty.
And if you don't like it, tough, because you're only other choice is to try to kill me or beat me up, in which case you should refer to rule 1, above.
If you can't, or won't abide by these 3 simple principles, then good riddance to you. You have no place in a peaceful society.
Buh bye, hasta la see ya, don't let the door hit you or your camel in the *** on the way out.
Ya, someone trying to kill you tends to clarify your thinking.
I have compassion for my less fortunate brothers.
Really. I do.
As a decent human being, I can understand that living a tortured, mind twisted existence will tend to make a man bitter and violent.
I understand that living without the necessities, or food, or hope will can make one lash out at whoever they think their tormenters are.
After all, happy people with hope for the future generally don't blow themselves up.
I care for their plight. I really do. Some of their grievances might even be legitimate.
But the fact is, all of the above does not let them off the hook. It does not excuse them one bit. Not overcoming the circumstances of their environment is not an excuse for becoming a sh__t of a human being.
And another thing? That's not my problem.
Really. It isn't.
It is absolutely NOT my responsibility to see to their food, shelter, safety, and wellbeing. It is theirs.
If they seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it isn't my job to give it to them. The must make that for themselves, and find what Karen Armstrong calls "their own peace with the modern spirit".
(Yeah, I know...we give them all sortsa aid, both out of enlightened self interest, and genuine humanitarianism...and look what we get in return)
But, since they've seen fit to mark me as an infidel, capitalist pig, and fair target in their holy war, THAT makes it my problem. I take it personally. Personally enough that I have a .45 strapped to my butt. Personally enough that I'm gonna throw in a little bonus with my tax money this year, for the dept of defense.
(Yeah, I know, they don't know me from adam, and they're never gonna attack beaverBoff NJ, but that isn't the point. This land, and these people are MINE. They'll haveta go through my portly self first to get them.)
It's really simple: If you want to play in the civilized world, the bare minimum ante to get into the game is 3 simple rules that even the biggest moron can understand:
1) You're not allowed to kill people.
If you try, don't be surprised if people kill you back. Beating people up, raping them, and so forth also fits under this category. It's the same thing, in different degrees. Try to kill us, beat us, rape us, you're fair game, pal.
2) You're not allowed to take people's stuff.
Get your own stuff, and do it honorably. If you do decide to risk your life to take my stuff, don't be surprised if it doesn't work out too well for you.
3) You can try to convince me of whatever ya want, but ya haveta take NO for an answer.
As in NO, I won't convert to your religion, NO, I won't have my wife and daughter circumcised, and NO, I will NOT stop doing my own thing, my own pursuit of freedom and happiness.
And furthermore, I LIKE looking at "decadent" women on the beach wearing bikinis. It is their right to reveal their beauty in any way they see fit, and my right to appreciate said beauty.
And if you don't like it, tough, because you're only other choice is to try to kill me or beat me up, in which case you should refer to rule 1, above.
If you can't, or won't abide by these 3 simple principles, then good riddance to you. You have no place in a peaceful society.
Buh bye, hasta la see ya, don't let the door hit you or your camel in the *** on the way out.
sonny
February 24, 2003, 07:05 PM
I hate to ask others to do research for me but does anyone have specific quotes from the Koran that qualify some of the things that have been said here?
I hear over and over again about "kill the infidels" but I have personally never read the koran?
I agree with many things that are being said here.....but I have to say that I have met a great number of muslim's......obviously not the radicals.......that are good family people and proud americans.
Can anyone hear say the koran is a more violent book than the bible?......is it all how it is interpreted?.....I don't want to get into a religeous debate....it is not apropriate on thr.....but I would like
some specifics to compare.
Maybe a website?
I hear over and over again about "kill the infidels" but I have personally never read the koran?
I agree with many things that are being said here.....but I have to say that I have met a great number of muslim's......obviously not the radicals.......that are good family people and proud americans.
Can anyone hear say the koran is a more violent book than the bible?......is it all how it is interpreted?.....I don't want to get into a religeous debate....it is not apropriate on thr.....but I would like
some specifics to compare.
Maybe a website?
DeltaElite
February 24, 2003, 07:08 PM
Frankly I don't care why they hate us.
If not for our technology and progression, they would be living in their rock huts riding pack animals.
They have not progressed on their own in 2000 years, yet they hate us.
I don't know or care why, I just know they need to be eliminated like the roaches they are.
If not for our technology and progression, they would be living in their rock huts riding pack animals.
They have not progressed on their own in 2000 years, yet they hate us.
I don't know or care why, I just know they need to be eliminated like the roaches they are.
CaesarI
February 24, 2003, 07:22 PM
Does it matter why they hate us?
Should we NOT fight back for some reason?
[list=1]
Maybe they hate us cause we oh... drive on the right side of the road. Or... cause we have clean water... honestly, if the solution were a simple one, we could just solve peacefully overnight, I'd be all for it. But no analysis of this has EVER found there to be a simple: "This is why they hate us. If we stop doing it, and they will 100% for sure stop hating us"
That being the case, I don't care. Maybe its cause they got tired of the Communists being the badguys in all the bad action movies. They wanted equal representation in Hollywood. ;) We didn't seem too concerned with why the Japanese hated is in the Second World War, why should we care why these terrorists hate us?
I'm more concerned with how we're going to insure they stop KILLING us. They can hate us till the cows come home, as long as they aren't killing/maiming us. I'm cool with that.
[/list=1]
I suppose that's an engineer's approach to a problem, rather than a physicist's approach. Let's figure out HOW to cross the river, not why the river is in our way.
-Morgan
Should we NOT fight back for some reason?
[list=1]
Maybe they hate us cause we oh... drive on the right side of the road. Or... cause we have clean water... honestly, if the solution were a simple one, we could just solve peacefully overnight, I'd be all for it. But no analysis of this has EVER found there to be a simple: "This is why they hate us. If we stop doing it, and they will 100% for sure stop hating us"
That being the case, I don't care. Maybe its cause they got tired of the Communists being the badguys in all the bad action movies. They wanted equal representation in Hollywood. ;) We didn't seem too concerned with why the Japanese hated is in the Second World War, why should we care why these terrorists hate us?
I'm more concerned with how we're going to insure they stop KILLING us. They can hate us till the cows come home, as long as they aren't killing/maiming us. I'm cool with that.
[/list=1]
I suppose that's an engineer's approach to a problem, rather than a physicist's approach. Let's figure out HOW to cross the river, not why the river is in our way.
-Morgan
Waitone
February 24, 2003, 07:23 PM
I hate to ask others to do research for me but does anyone have specific quotes from the Koran that qualify some of the things that have been said here?Take a look at http://www.memri.org/ the Middle East Media Research Institute.
MEMRI is a group that provides English translations of Middle Eastern, Arabic, and Southwest Asia languages. Last week FOX News broadcast part of a sermon by a Iman at a big mosque in Bagdhad. Aside from being compelling and frightening, the translation was provided by MEMRI.
They specialize in translating for English speakers communications among Islamists which has effectively been a secret code to us.
I'm on their email list. Some of the stuff they translate is truly frightening.
Give 'em a looksee.
MEMRI is a group that provides English translations of Middle Eastern, Arabic, and Southwest Asia languages. Last week FOX News broadcast part of a sermon by a Iman at a big mosque in Bagdhad. Aside from being compelling and frightening, the translation was provided by MEMRI.
They specialize in translating for English speakers communications among Islamists which has effectively been a secret code to us.
I'm on their email list. Some of the stuff they translate is truly frightening.
Give 'em a looksee.
sonny
February 24, 2003, 07:25 PM
Thanks Waitone:)
sonny
February 24, 2003, 07:37 PM
ATTN THR,
The site Waitone recomended is something you should all check out......interesting stuff
The site Waitone recomended is something you should all check out......interesting stuff
Hkmp5sd
February 24, 2003, 07:51 PM
I hate to ask others to do research for me but does anyone have specific quotes from the Koran that qualify some of the things that have been said here?
Suras commanding war against unbelievers appear throughout the Koran, but the one that is short and clear is 9:73:
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."
Muslims are also promised heaven if they fight for the "cause of Allah" in many places. Suras 9:86-90 are clear:
" Whenever a Chapter (Sura) was revealed, saying: 'Believe in God and fight alongside His apostle," the rich among them excused themselves to you, saying 'Leave us with those who are to stay behind.' They were content to be with those who stayed behind: a seal was set upon their hearts, leaving them bereft of understanding. But the Apostle and the men who shared his faith fought with their goods and with their persons. These shall be rewarded with good things. These shall surely prosper. God has prepared for them gardens watered by running streams (the Koran's metaphor for heaven), in which they shall abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph. Some Arabs of the desert turned up with excuses, begging leave to stay behind; while those who denied God and His apostle remained idle at home. A woeful scourge shall fall on those of them that disbelieved."
TERROR is a pervasive theme in Koran - inflicted both by Allah and by Muslims on those who don't believe. Here are several suras.
Sura 3:151 - aimed at Christians who believe in the Trinity:
"We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. They serve other deities besides God for whom He has revealed no sanction. The fire shall be their home; evil indeed is the dwelling of the evil doers."
Sura 59:2 - here Allah and Muslims cause terror:
"It was He that drove the unbelievers among the People of the Book (Koran's phrase for Jews & Christians) out of their dwellings into the first exile. You did not think that they would go; and they, for their part, fancied that their strongholds would protect them from God. but god's scourge fell upon them whence they did not expect it, casting such terror into their hearts that their dwellings were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the faithful (Muslims). Learn from their example, you that have eyes."
SLAYING UNBELIEVERS is specifically commanded, though they can also be made slaves and their property can be confiscated. Non-muslims have no legal rights in Muslim societies. If unbelievers are not killed, they can be made to pay "Jizya," a tax to buy back rights like owning property, working, or going to school.
Sura 2:191:
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they mend their ways (become Muslims), know that God is forgiving and merciful."
WORLD DOMINATION IS THE GOAL OF ISLAM. The Koran is perverse, but it is logical. The Koran teaches that unbelievers are sinners, and every day they live they pile up more sins. Because Muslims believe that Allah will judge people by weighing their good deeds against their bad deeds, they believe that by forcing non-Muslims to become Muslims at the point of a sword they are actually doing non-Muslims a favor - "saving their souls" as it were. But because unbelief is a sin - idolatry - it must be wiped out wherever it is. This effectively means that the Muslims goal is to spread Islam to everyone who will accept it and kill everyone who won't.
Sura 2:193:
"Fight against them (non-Muslims) until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers."
Sura 2:216
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not."
What Does Koran Actually Teach? (http://www.citizensoldier.org/koranone.html)
Suras commanding war against unbelievers appear throughout the Koran, but the one that is short and clear is 9:73:
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."
Muslims are also promised heaven if they fight for the "cause of Allah" in many places. Suras 9:86-90 are clear:
" Whenever a Chapter (Sura) was revealed, saying: 'Believe in God and fight alongside His apostle," the rich among them excused themselves to you, saying 'Leave us with those who are to stay behind.' They were content to be with those who stayed behind: a seal was set upon their hearts, leaving them bereft of understanding. But the Apostle and the men who shared his faith fought with their goods and with their persons. These shall be rewarded with good things. These shall surely prosper. God has prepared for them gardens watered by running streams (the Koran's metaphor for heaven), in which they shall abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph. Some Arabs of the desert turned up with excuses, begging leave to stay behind; while those who denied God and His apostle remained idle at home. A woeful scourge shall fall on those of them that disbelieved."
TERROR is a pervasive theme in Koran - inflicted both by Allah and by Muslims on those who don't believe. Here are several suras.
Sura 3:151 - aimed at Christians who believe in the Trinity:
"We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. They serve other deities besides God for whom He has revealed no sanction. The fire shall be their home; evil indeed is the dwelling of the evil doers."
Sura 59:2 - here Allah and Muslims cause terror:
"It was He that drove the unbelievers among the People of the Book (Koran's phrase for Jews & Christians) out of their dwellings into the first exile. You did not think that they would go; and they, for their part, fancied that their strongholds would protect them from God. but god's scourge fell upon them whence they did not expect it, casting such terror into their hearts that their dwellings were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the faithful (Muslims). Learn from their example, you that have eyes."
SLAYING UNBELIEVERS is specifically commanded, though they can also be made slaves and their property can be confiscated. Non-muslims have no legal rights in Muslim societies. If unbelievers are not killed, they can be made to pay "Jizya," a tax to buy back rights like owning property, working, or going to school.
Sura 2:191:
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they mend their ways (become Muslims), know that God is forgiving and merciful."
WORLD DOMINATION IS THE GOAL OF ISLAM. The Koran is perverse, but it is logical. The Koran teaches that unbelievers are sinners, and every day they live they pile up more sins. Because Muslims believe that Allah will judge people by weighing their good deeds against their bad deeds, they believe that by forcing non-Muslims to become Muslims at the point of a sword they are actually doing non-Muslims a favor - "saving their souls" as it were. But because unbelief is a sin - idolatry - it must be wiped out wherever it is. This effectively means that the Muslims goal is to spread Islam to everyone who will accept it and kill everyone who won't.
Sura 2:193:
"Fight against them (non-Muslims) until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers."
Sura 2:216
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not."
What Does Koran Actually Teach? (http://www.citizensoldier.org/koranone.html)
Atticus
February 24, 2003, 07:52 PM
Fundamentalist Muslims believe that financial profit is the root of all evil. That's why they dislike the US and Europe.... and why they HATE Israel. Many of them believe (like the Uni-Bomber Ted K.) that modern society, with it's computers, DNA exploration, sex exploitation, vulgarity, eco-destruction, and a hundred other things, should come to a screeching halt.
Tending goats on a silent, starlit mountain seems kind of appealing at times. I'd be willing to meet them half way. :)
Tending goats on a silent, starlit mountain seems kind of appealing at times. I'd be willing to meet them half way. :)
sonny
February 24, 2003, 07:58 PM
HKmp5sd,
Thanks for the website!
Thanks for the website!
bad_dad_brad
February 24, 2003, 08:31 PM
Why do they hate us?
In one word:
Envy.
Imagine a middle class world. No want. No boredom. Everybody has a job. No hunger. Responsible freedom. Equality for all citizens. There would be no more war, no more terrorism, no more grief.
A full belly hungers not. I sometimes think the root of all evil is malnutrition and ignorance. A bad combination.
In one word:
Envy.
Imagine a middle class world. No want. No boredom. Everybody has a job. No hunger. Responsible freedom. Equality for all citizens. There would be no more war, no more terrorism, no more grief.
A full belly hungers not. I sometimes think the root of all evil is malnutrition and ignorance. A bad combination.
Skunkabilly
February 24, 2003, 08:46 PM
Because we can get AR-15s and 30- round magazines for them!
Wait... :rolleyes:
I can get neither and they pass around AKs like baseball cards!
Wait... :rolleyes:
I can get neither and they pass around AKs like baseball cards!
Derek Zeanah
February 24, 2003, 09:36 PM
Their radical religon tells them that we need to convert or be killed. And often, it is be killed or convert, then be killed.
It really is that simple.
Surah 2:62: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
2:256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Are you sure it's that simple?
"Kill them all! Let God sort them out!"
And, by their voices, I think they'd like that.
Is that directed at all muslims? If you really feel that way about me, maybe you should send me a PM and we can arrange a time/place to get this over with. :fire:
They have not progressed on their own in 2000 years, yet they hate us.
Uhhhh. I think the religion is about 1,400 years old. If I recall correctly, they were more advanced than the "west" for about half that time. Something about the dark ages, and the renaissance being largely dependent on some of the ideas flowing back into the western world from the islamic world.
The issue here, though, isn't one of religion; it's one of a dogmatic religion dominating society to the point that forward progress isn't possible. Reference the dark ages, and treatment of scientists by the church. Reference the attitudes of many here in the south re: teaching of evolution (or even presenting evidence that might point in that direction).
HK: I'm only going to respond to the first two references you provided, if that's ok. I've got other things to do tonight...
Surah 9:73-74:
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
Now, for the historical note in my copy of the Qur'an:
The reference is to a plot made by the Prophet's enemies to kill him when he was returning from Tabuk. The plot failed... Note that it's not directed at non-muslims in general. Sounds more to me like "mercy's good, but don't have much mercy on those dudes who tried to assassinate you the other night..." Reference the above quote about jews, christians, and muslims all being eligible for heaven, depending on how they've chosen to live their lives.
9:81-90
Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah: they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!
Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do.
If, then, Allah bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: "Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: Then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind."
Nor do thou ever pray for any of them that dies, nor stand at his grave; for they rejected Allah and His Messenger, and died in a state of perverse rebellion.
Nor let their wealth nor their (following in) sons dazzle thee: Allah's plan is to punish them with these things in this world, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of Allah.
When a Sura comes down, enjoining them to believe in Allah and to strive and fight along with His Messenger, those with wealth and influence among them ask thee for exemption, and say: "Leave us (behind): we would be with those who sit (at home)."
They prefer to be with (the women), who remain behind (at home): their hearts are sealed and so they understand not.
But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.
Allah hath prepared for them gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein: that is the supreme felicity.
And there were, among the desert Arabs (also), men who made excuses and came to claim exemption; and those who were false to Allah and His Messenger (merely) sat inactive. Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.
I guess I don't see what your problem with this passage is. If God says "go fight and risk your life in the cause of righteousness," it seems like you probably should. Is that concept really much different than this one:
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.If you truly love liberty, then you will be willing to risk your life to achieve it; anything less only shows the world that you aren't deserving of liberty. Swap "God" for "liberty" and rework the sentence slightly, and there you go.
Fundamentalist Muslims believe that financial profit is the root of all evil.
Those who (in charity) spend of their goods by night and by day, in secret and in public, have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say: "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire: They will abide therein (for ever).
Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
I'd translate that as "it's ok to work toward wealth, but 18% APR loans are taking you down the wrong path, bro..."
It really is that simple.
Surah 2:62: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
2:256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Are you sure it's that simple?
"Kill them all! Let God sort them out!"
And, by their voices, I think they'd like that.
Is that directed at all muslims? If you really feel that way about me, maybe you should send me a PM and we can arrange a time/place to get this over with. :fire:
They have not progressed on their own in 2000 years, yet they hate us.
Uhhhh. I think the religion is about 1,400 years old. If I recall correctly, they were more advanced than the "west" for about half that time. Something about the dark ages, and the renaissance being largely dependent on some of the ideas flowing back into the western world from the islamic world.
The issue here, though, isn't one of religion; it's one of a dogmatic religion dominating society to the point that forward progress isn't possible. Reference the dark ages, and treatment of scientists by the church. Reference the attitudes of many here in the south re: teaching of evolution (or even presenting evidence that might point in that direction).
HK: I'm only going to respond to the first two references you provided, if that's ok. I've got other things to do tonight...
Surah 9:73-74:
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
Now, for the historical note in my copy of the Qur'an:
The reference is to a plot made by the Prophet's enemies to kill him when he was returning from Tabuk. The plot failed... Note that it's not directed at non-muslims in general. Sounds more to me like "mercy's good, but don't have much mercy on those dudes who tried to assassinate you the other night..." Reference the above quote about jews, christians, and muslims all being eligible for heaven, depending on how they've chosen to live their lives.
9:81-90
Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah: they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!
Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do.
If, then, Allah bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: "Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: Then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind."
Nor do thou ever pray for any of them that dies, nor stand at his grave; for they rejected Allah and His Messenger, and died in a state of perverse rebellion.
Nor let their wealth nor their (following in) sons dazzle thee: Allah's plan is to punish them with these things in this world, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of Allah.
When a Sura comes down, enjoining them to believe in Allah and to strive and fight along with His Messenger, those with wealth and influence among them ask thee for exemption, and say: "Leave us (behind): we would be with those who sit (at home)."
They prefer to be with (the women), who remain behind (at home): their hearts are sealed and so they understand not.
But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.
Allah hath prepared for them gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein: that is the supreme felicity.
And there were, among the desert Arabs (also), men who made excuses and came to claim exemption; and those who were false to Allah and His Messenger (merely) sat inactive. Soon will a grievous penalty seize the Unbelievers among them.
I guess I don't see what your problem with this passage is. If God says "go fight and risk your life in the cause of righteousness," it seems like you probably should. Is that concept really much different than this one:
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.If you truly love liberty, then you will be willing to risk your life to achieve it; anything less only shows the world that you aren't deserving of liberty. Swap "God" for "liberty" and rework the sentence slightly, and there you go.
Fundamentalist Muslims believe that financial profit is the root of all evil.
Those who (in charity) spend of their goods by night and by day, in secret and in public, have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say: "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire: They will abide therein (for ever).
Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
I'd translate that as "it's ok to work toward wealth, but 18% APR loans are taking you down the wrong path, bro..."
Gary H
February 24, 2003, 09:47 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm
Derek Zeanah
February 24, 2003, 09:47 PM
<sigh>
Look, I really try to stay out of these discussions. It's my experience that forums like this aren't the best place for rational thought. Especially when the local preacher goes on TV and talks about how Mohommad was a child molester (wasn't his youngest wife the same age as Mary when she gave birth? Didn't call God a child molester though....) who worships this pagan god called Allah, and so on and so forth. Then on the other end you get the president saying "they want to take our freedom" or somesuch.
The issue is more complex than that. If we'd stop backing Saudi Arabia with our military troops and hardware, that'd end most of the problem. Find a solution to the israel/palestine thing too and your problem is solved. Those are the two issues Bin Ladin has said he's concerned with. Nothing about our freedoms over here (though I bet arab versions of MTV probably piss him off...)
Anyway, judging all followers of Islam by the actions of a small minority of its followers is like judging the entirety of christianity by the actions of a small group -- any american christians here care to be judged by the actions of christians in the baltics over the last couple of decades? Any catholics care to be judged by mormon or jehova's witness' doctrine? Any JW's care to be judged by a catholic's willingness to pray to people other than god ("holy mary mother of god, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, amen.")? How about the prespbyterian take on "original sin" that translated as "children who die in childbirth go to hell" that existed until it was amended in the 70's?
There ain't no singular figurehead for islam. Just like there isn't one for christianity. You may have heard christian-based arguments supporting slavery and discrimination, but that's not an indictment of the religion,, it's an indictment of the bigots spouting that opinion.
Same thing here.
Look, I really try to stay out of these discussions. It's my experience that forums like this aren't the best place for rational thought. Especially when the local preacher goes on TV and talks about how Mohommad was a child molester (wasn't his youngest wife the same age as Mary when she gave birth? Didn't call God a child molester though....) who worships this pagan god called Allah, and so on and so forth. Then on the other end you get the president saying "they want to take our freedom" or somesuch.
The issue is more complex than that. If we'd stop backing Saudi Arabia with our military troops and hardware, that'd end most of the problem. Find a solution to the israel/palestine thing too and your problem is solved. Those are the two issues Bin Ladin has said he's concerned with. Nothing about our freedoms over here (though I bet arab versions of MTV probably piss him off...)
Anyway, judging all followers of Islam by the actions of a small minority of its followers is like judging the entirety of christianity by the actions of a small group -- any american christians here care to be judged by the actions of christians in the baltics over the last couple of decades? Any catholics care to be judged by mormon or jehova's witness' doctrine? Any JW's care to be judged by a catholic's willingness to pray to people other than god ("holy mary mother of god, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, amen.")? How about the prespbyterian take on "original sin" that translated as "children who die in childbirth go to hell" that existed until it was amended in the 70's?
There ain't no singular figurehead for islam. Just like there isn't one for christianity. You may have heard christian-based arguments supporting slavery and discrimination, but that's not an indictment of the religion,, it's an indictment of the bigots spouting that opinion.
Same thing here.
Gary H
February 24, 2003, 10:52 PM
Derek:
I think that the issue is more complex, but we are being threatened by a belief system that is held by ten percent of one faith. Personally, I think that people, in the name of religion, have done a great deal of harm and good. It is more complicated than just getting out of Saudi Arabia. The institutionalized hatred for Israel, lack of education, poverty and a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran has rekindled the Crusades. This thing is very complicated. Wahabi-ism is a threat to the non-Muslim world. Check out this welcome...and don't bring your stink'n bibles to our country. I'm not Christian, nor Jewish, so I would not be bringing a bible. This war is going to be a long one..
Welcome: http://www.britishcouncil.org/saudiarabia/contact/sauvisit.htm
I think that the issue is more complex, but we are being threatened by a belief system that is held by ten percent of one faith. Personally, I think that people, in the name of religion, have done a great deal of harm and good. It is more complicated than just getting out of Saudi Arabia. The institutionalized hatred for Israel, lack of education, poverty and a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran has rekindled the Crusades. This thing is very complicated. Wahabi-ism is a threat to the non-Muslim world. Check out this welcome...and don't bring your stink'n bibles to our country. I'm not Christian, nor Jewish, so I would not be bringing a bible. This war is going to be a long one..
Welcome: http://www.britishcouncil.org/saudiarabia/contact/sauvisit.htm
CaesarI
February 25, 2003, 06:35 AM
Well without getting branded with the same anti-Muslim stick here... I'd apply my earlier premise.
There is no easy solution that will cause a cessation of Terrorism against the United States by foreign fundamentalist Islamic forces.
Stop supporting the House of Saud? The whole world does, and for one: reason oil. The Lefties got us by the balls on that one. We aren't going to war with Iraq for oil, but we, and the rest of the world, back the house of Saud to insure a stable flow of oil. And for the record, the current high oil prices have a LOT more to do with Venezuela than Iraq, but no one's protesting Venezuela, even though they should be. Their current leader is a filthy Communist pig, and the Venezualans had the cajones to strike.
"Find a solution to the israel/palestine thing too and your problem is solved."
Yeah... unfortunately this is one Gordian knot that there isn't a simple solution for. If you've got one I'm all ears, so's the rest of the world. Any solution short of driving the Israeli's into the sea is gonna leave some sect of Muslims unhappy with us. And driving the Israelis into the sea isn't an option for a lot of us.
-Morgan
There is no easy solution that will cause a cessation of Terrorism against the United States by foreign fundamentalist Islamic forces.
Stop supporting the House of Saud? The whole world does, and for one: reason oil. The Lefties got us by the balls on that one. We aren't going to war with Iraq for oil, but we, and the rest of the world, back the house of Saud to insure a stable flow of oil. And for the record, the current high oil prices have a LOT more to do with Venezuela than Iraq, but no one's protesting Venezuela, even though they should be. Their current leader is a filthy Communist pig, and the Venezualans had the cajones to strike.
"Find a solution to the israel/palestine thing too and your problem is solved."
Yeah... unfortunately this is one Gordian knot that there isn't a simple solution for. If you've got one I'm all ears, so's the rest of the world. Any solution short of driving the Israeli's into the sea is gonna leave some sect of Muslims unhappy with us. And driving the Israelis into the sea isn't an option for a lot of us.
-Morgan
Double Naught Spy
February 25, 2003, 09:12 AM
Not all Terrorists hate us. There are terror groups that like us but when they like us and work in tandem with us, we call them allies.
It all comes down to perspective. Some groups see the US and Britain as terroristic countries. Go figure. It isn't like the US and Britain have made everybody happen as they came in contact with them, right?
There are all sorts of terrorists with all sorts of causes. They may be religious, economic, racial, or political. We have all four types operating within our own country and there are many more operating outside of our country.
Why do terrorists hate us? Ask Timmy McVey and see what you learn. Of course, you will need a Ouji board.
It all comes down to perspective. Some groups see the US and Britain as terroristic countries. Go figure. It isn't like the US and Britain have made everybody happen as they came in contact with them, right?
There are all sorts of terrorists with all sorts of causes. They may be religious, economic, racial, or political. We have all four types operating within our own country and there are many more operating outside of our country.
Why do terrorists hate us? Ask Timmy McVey and see what you learn. Of course, you will need a Ouji board.
CMichael
February 25, 2003, 09:42 AM
Because our government isn't controlled by a caliph.
Joe Demko
February 25, 2003, 10:39 AM
It doesn't help that many of the repressive regimes that rule/ruled in that region received overt or covert support from the US. The Shah of Iran springs to mind, just for starters. Saddam wasn't always on the US gummint caca list, either.
jmbg29
February 25, 2003, 10:47 AM
WHY do the terrorists hate us?I couldn't care less.
I am a child of the Space/Computer age. Ergo, what a 7th century barbarian thinks, wants, or cares, is immaterial to me.
As human beings, they have every potential to join the rest of us in the Space/Computer age, they flatly refuse. Fair enough. God imbues us all with the ability to chose good/evil, they have made their choice.
Why I hate them is what is important to me.
Rather than seek out combatants like themselves, they prefer to kill women and children.
Further, they say that this senseless suicide/murder of the innocent is a sacrament before God.
For that I condemn them as anathema, and I won't truly rest until they are wiped from the Earth.
7th century barbarian vs. Space/Computer age guy.....Hmmm:fire: :fire: :fire: :fire:
I am a child of the Space/Computer age. Ergo, what a 7th century barbarian thinks, wants, or cares, is immaterial to me.
As human beings, they have every potential to join the rest of us in the Space/Computer age, they flatly refuse. Fair enough. God imbues us all with the ability to chose good/evil, they have made their choice.
Why I hate them is what is important to me.
Rather than seek out combatants like themselves, they prefer to kill women and children.
Further, they say that this senseless suicide/murder of the innocent is a sacrament before God.
For that I condemn them as anathema, and I won't truly rest until they are wiped from the Earth.
7th century barbarian vs. Space/Computer age guy.....Hmmm:fire: :fire: :fire: :fire:
jmbg29
February 25, 2003, 10:52 AM
It doesn't help that many of the repressive regimes that rule/ruled in that region received overt or covert support from the US. The Shah of Iran springs to mind, just for starters. Saddam wasn't always on the US gummint caca list, either.And if we stopped that support tomorrow, it wouldn't change a thing.
They would simply use the existence of those regimes in the past as their excuse in the future.
Excuse time is over.
They would simply use the existence of those regimes in the past as their excuse in the future.
Excuse time is over.
Joe Demko
February 25, 2003, 11:45 AM
And if we stopped that support tomorrow, it wouldn't change a thing.
If we hadn't supported such filthy regimes in the first place, there would be one less reason why they hate us. Would they still hate us for other things? Probably. We would not, however, have soiled ourselves by propping up murdering despots and that would be worthwhile in itself.
If we hadn't supported such filthy regimes in the first place, there would be one less reason why they hate us. Would they still hate us for other things? Probably. We would not, however, have soiled ourselves by propping up murdering despots and that would be worthwhile in itself.
benewton
February 25, 2003, 03:08 PM
Derek:
As a libertarian, I'm more than happy to allow you to live your life in any way that you select, so long as you do not, in any way, means, shape or form interfere with others living theirs.
As someone who exercises his CCW daily, I'm aware of the fact that I'm allowed to have a temper, but I'm not allowed to exercise it.
What we face is a group, perhaps only 10% of a much larger group, which wishes to simply slaughter anybody who doesn't agree with, and follow in detail, their way of life.
I strongly suspect that they couldn't exist without the firm support of their coreligionists, and I note that the response of the Muslim groups in the US has been poor, at best, when it comes time to condemn terrorists.
So, I guess I believe that we should adopt their rules of war: agree with, and support, us or die. Shouldn't both sides play by the same rules?
While I'd prefer that people continue on in a more reasonable course, helping out when they can and staying out of the way when they can't, if slaughter there MUST be, I'd prefer to be on the side that administers it, and hence, my comment.
As for the noontime date, rhetorical, I'm sure, I'll pass, 'cause this whole mess isn't a game.
If I really had to, I guess I would, but it'd be me behind a rifle and you unaware of any danger. Survival doesn't admit a fair chase!
As a libertarian, I'm more than happy to allow you to live your life in any way that you select, so long as you do not, in any way, means, shape or form interfere with others living theirs.
As someone who exercises his CCW daily, I'm aware of the fact that I'm allowed to have a temper, but I'm not allowed to exercise it.
What we face is a group, perhaps only 10% of a much larger group, which wishes to simply slaughter anybody who doesn't agree with, and follow in detail, their way of life.
I strongly suspect that they couldn't exist without the firm support of their coreligionists, and I note that the response of the Muslim groups in the US has been poor, at best, when it comes time to condemn terrorists.
So, I guess I believe that we should adopt their rules of war: agree with, and support, us or die. Shouldn't both sides play by the same rules?
While I'd prefer that people continue on in a more reasonable course, helping out when they can and staying out of the way when they can't, if slaughter there MUST be, I'd prefer to be on the side that administers it, and hence, my comment.
As for the noontime date, rhetorical, I'm sure, I'll pass, 'cause this whole mess isn't a game.
If I really had to, I guess I would, but it'd be me behind a rifle and you unaware of any danger. Survival doesn't admit a fair chase!
Hkmp5sd
February 25, 2003, 06:24 PM
The basic answer to this question is fairly simple.
The leaders of the terrorist groups use terrorism as a form of extortion. They want something. They go blow stuff up with the goal that the other side will meet whatever it is they are asking. Once they get that, they go blow something up and start asking for more.
The leaders also use terrorism as a method of retaining their power. When one group such as the Palestinian Authority (Arafat) is getting worried about a takeover by another group, such as HAMAS, they instigate a little violence with Israel and get everyone focused back to the overall goal of all Islamic terror groups, the complete removal of the State of Israel.
The Islamic terror groups have absolutely no interest of living in peace with the State of Israel. Every summit you have seen where they are signing agreements with Israel, such as the MANY agreements made with Arafat, the terror group was lying through their teeth. They view these agreements as stepping stones toward the eventual annihilation of Israel.
One of Arafat's favorite slogans is "A contract is a contract, and a vow is a vow." What he means by this is that a contract like an agreement with Israel, is a transient agreement that a believer is not obliged to abide by once it has outlived its usefulness. A vow such as Arafat's 1996 promise, "You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for the Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews will not want to live among us Arabs!", is seen as an eternal religious obligation.
The leaders of the terrorist groups use terrorism as a form of extortion. They want something. They go blow stuff up with the goal that the other side will meet whatever it is they are asking. Once they get that, they go blow something up and start asking for more.
The leaders also use terrorism as a method of retaining their power. When one group such as the Palestinian Authority (Arafat) is getting worried about a takeover by another group, such as HAMAS, they instigate a little violence with Israel and get everyone focused back to the overall goal of all Islamic terror groups, the complete removal of the State of Israel.
The Islamic terror groups have absolutely no interest of living in peace with the State of Israel. Every summit you have seen where they are signing agreements with Israel, such as the MANY agreements made with Arafat, the terror group was lying through their teeth. They view these agreements as stepping stones toward the eventual annihilation of Israel.
One of Arafat's favorite slogans is "A contract is a contract, and a vow is a vow." What he means by this is that a contract like an agreement with Israel, is a transient agreement that a believer is not obliged to abide by once it has outlived its usefulness. A vow such as Arafat's 1996 promise, "You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for the Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews will not want to live among us Arabs!", is seen as an eternal religious obligation.
sonny
February 25, 2003, 07:43 PM
benewton....you said.
I strongly suspect that they couldn't exist without the firm support of their coreligionists, and I note that the response of the Muslim groups in the US has been poor, at best, when it comes time to condemn terrorists.
I agree with that....It really pisses me off when people say ..."you have to look at it from their side" while they enjoy the freedoms of the USA....In saying things like that it assumes that I am a war loving monster who has not considered any other options exept for hatred and war....GWB said your either with us or against us.
I must admit that in times like these it kinda makes sense.
I strongly suspect that they couldn't exist without the firm support of their coreligionists, and I note that the response of the Muslim groups in the US has been poor, at best, when it comes time to condemn terrorists.
I agree with that....It really pisses me off when people say ..."you have to look at it from their side" while they enjoy the freedoms of the USA....In saying things like that it assumes that I am a war loving monster who has not considered any other options exept for hatred and war....GWB said your either with us or against us.
I must admit that in times like these it kinda makes sense.
Zander
February 25, 2003, 11:01 PM
Look, I really try to stay out of these discussions. It's my experience that forums like this aren't the best place for rational thought.What exactly does that mean? I thought that these fora follow that as a prime directive. Don't they? Other boards are demonstrably capable of handling such volatile debate without damage to their member base. Is there some reason beyond not wanting both sides to be heard here?
Mohommad was a child molester (wasn't his youngest wife the same age as Mary when she gave birth? Didn't call God a child molester though....) Isn't it a matter of fact that Mohammed [sic] took a "bride" [one of many] who was just nine years old? Your analogy is a false as it gets.
If we'd stop backing Saudi Arabia with our military troops and hardware, that'd end most of the problem.No, that wouldn't. What will end the "problem" is for us to kill the Islamicists who are dedicated to murdering us indiscriminately. If that offends you because of your faith, perhaps you'd be better off getting over it or rethinking your position.
Anyway, judging all followers of Islam by the actions of a small minority of its followers is like judging the entirety of christianity by the actions of a small group How telling...you choose to capitalize 'Islam' but not 'Christianity'. Of the six billion people who populate this planet, one-third are Christian. I wouldn't insult your beliefs in such a way. Why insult mine or Mormons' or Jehovah's Witnesses' or Presbyterians'? What you decry you perpetuate.
There ain't no singular figurehead for islam. [sic]No, there are many. One of them is Osama bin Laden...whether he's still alive or not. I see no valid condemnation of September 11th; in fact, just the opposite. It has been that way since before the failed attempt in 1993 to collapse the World Trade Towers.
Same thing here.Actually, no...it's not. No one of the Christian faith has commandeered domestic Saudi Arabian or Iranian or any other country's airliners to intentionally murder their subjects in their financial centers, military complexes or their equivalent of the White House.
There is no equivalence, moral or otherwise.
IMO, of course...
Mohommad was a child molester (wasn't his youngest wife the same age as Mary when she gave birth? Didn't call God a child molester though....) Isn't it a matter of fact that Mohammed [sic] took a "bride" [one of many] who was just nine years old? Your analogy is a false as it gets.
If we'd stop backing Saudi Arabia with our military troops and hardware, that'd end most of the problem.No, that wouldn't. What will end the "problem" is for us to kill the Islamicists who are dedicated to murdering us indiscriminately. If that offends you because of your faith, perhaps you'd be better off getting over it or rethinking your position.
Anyway, judging all followers of Islam by the actions of a small minority of its followers is like judging the entirety of christianity by the actions of a small group How telling...you choose to capitalize 'Islam' but not 'Christianity'. Of the six billion people who populate this planet, one-third are Christian. I wouldn't insult your beliefs in such a way. Why insult mine or Mormons' or Jehovah's Witnesses' or Presbyterians'? What you decry you perpetuate.
There ain't no singular figurehead for islam. [sic]No, there are many. One of them is Osama bin Laden...whether he's still alive or not. I see no valid condemnation of September 11th; in fact, just the opposite. It has been that way since before the failed attempt in 1993 to collapse the World Trade Towers.
Same thing here.Actually, no...it's not. No one of the Christian faith has commandeered domestic Saudi Arabian or Iranian or any other country's airliners to intentionally murder their subjects in their financial centers, military complexes or their equivalent of the White House.
There is no equivalence, moral or otherwise.
IMO, of course...
jmbg29
February 25, 2003, 11:30 PM
The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
Osama bin Laden That's all I need to know. He says he'll kill me if I don't adopt his death-cult version of a religion.
The Sun will burn out of the sky before that happens.
Osama bin Laden That's all I need to know. He says he'll kill me if I don't adopt his death-cult version of a religion.
The Sun will burn out of the sky before that happens.
JPM70535
February 25, 2003, 11:57 PM
These are some almighty powerful statements being made.
Not being Muslim I can't say whether the Koran condones the killing of non-muslims or not, but all my life I have been told that the Koran does not consider the killing of Infidels to be a sin. From the bits I have read here I can only believe that the Koran does indeed sanction the killing of unbelievers.
Unless the majority of Muslims do not follow the teachings of the Koran, the only assumption to be made is that what we see now (Terrorist attacks) is the continuation of the Holy War called for in it's writings.
I firmly believe that we have no true friends in the Middle East, Israel included, and the best thing the country could do would be to pull out of the region completely, Expel all non-citizens of Arab extraction, close our borders, and wait for the SHTF. One or more of the "Peace Loving" Arab countrys will attack Israel, their sworn enemy with all the WMD they possess. Anyone who believes that Israel would not respond in kind with the "Nukes" they don't have is a dreamer.
The end result IMO will be a Nuclear wasteland for Eons to come, no combatents left to wage war, and the major problem left
to solve will be HOW TO RECOVER AND SELL RADIOACTIVE OIL.
The only other alternative is the continued loss of American lives.
Not being Muslim I can't say whether the Koran condones the killing of non-muslims or not, but all my life I have been told that the Koran does not consider the killing of Infidels to be a sin. From the bits I have read here I can only believe that the Koran does indeed sanction the killing of unbelievers.
Unless the majority of Muslims do not follow the teachings of the Koran, the only assumption to be made is that what we see now (Terrorist attacks) is the continuation of the Holy War called for in it's writings.
I firmly believe that we have no true friends in the Middle East, Israel included, and the best thing the country could do would be to pull out of the region completely, Expel all non-citizens of Arab extraction, close our borders, and wait for the SHTF. One or more of the "Peace Loving" Arab countrys will attack Israel, their sworn enemy with all the WMD they possess. Anyone who believes that Israel would not respond in kind with the "Nukes" they don't have is a dreamer.
The end result IMO will be a Nuclear wasteland for Eons to come, no combatents left to wage war, and the major problem left
to solve will be HOW TO RECOVER AND SELL RADIOACTIVE OIL.
The only other alternative is the continued loss of American lives.
Zander
February 26, 2003, 12:30 AM
The Sun will burn out of the sky before that happens.Indeed...
Baba Louie
February 26, 2003, 03:27 AM
Ah, the discussions on the struggle for POWER. Secular, religious, energy, territory, cultural beliefs and dogma.
Earlier versions had US vying against the USSR. We made and used friends, bought and sold whole nations/leaders in an effort to make certain that our side came out on top.
How's that saying go? "All's fair in Love and War"?
We tend to stab our enemies in the front while acting behind their backs... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... we exploit those we can while helping them help us... "Help me help you, or else"... and once in awhile we meet someone who would resist, who would actually challenge us.
Whether its in the name of God, Oil, Real Estate, of business economic theory free market vs. Socialism/Communism, democracy vs. totalitarian statist or just good old fashioned "You're not like us, we ain't like you and may the better man win" syndrome... we again find ourselves in conflict with a couple of thousand dead bodies to show for it, on our native soil, no less... and that just doesn't cut the mustard. Anyone remember Little Big Horn?
Like the western stories of old, when you're the fastest gun in town, there's always some kid who feels the need to challenge you. Some do it face to face and they usually lose. Others wait till you're occupied playing poker or hanging a picture with your back to them and shoot you in the largest target they can in the time they have.
Each side claims the high moral ground.
Winner takes all. (For now)
My chips are on us.
I'd bank on it.
But to answer the main question, "Why do the terrorists hate us?"
"As if I care?"
Be fair-minded before and after the fight. Fight to win, no rules, don't fight the way you did before, don't fight the way they want you to, play to your strength, take advantage of everything you can.
The time for talking is over. (and to add yet another cliche to the pile) Actions speak louder than words.
Adios
Earlier versions had US vying against the USSR. We made and used friends, bought and sold whole nations/leaders in an effort to make certain that our side came out on top.
How's that saying go? "All's fair in Love and War"?
We tend to stab our enemies in the front while acting behind their backs... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... we exploit those we can while helping them help us... "Help me help you, or else"... and once in awhile we meet someone who would resist, who would actually challenge us.
Whether its in the name of God, Oil, Real Estate, of business economic theory free market vs. Socialism/Communism, democracy vs. totalitarian statist or just good old fashioned "You're not like us, we ain't like you and may the better man win" syndrome... we again find ourselves in conflict with a couple of thousand dead bodies to show for it, on our native soil, no less... and that just doesn't cut the mustard. Anyone remember Little Big Horn?
Like the western stories of old, when you're the fastest gun in town, there's always some kid who feels the need to challenge you. Some do it face to face and they usually lose. Others wait till you're occupied playing poker or hanging a picture with your back to them and shoot you in the largest target they can in the time they have.
Each side claims the high moral ground.
Winner takes all. (For now)
My chips are on us.
I'd bank on it.
But to answer the main question, "Why do the terrorists hate us?"
"As if I care?"
Be fair-minded before and after the fight. Fight to win, no rules, don't fight the way you did before, don't fight the way they want you to, play to your strength, take advantage of everything you can.
The time for talking is over. (and to add yet another cliche to the pile) Actions speak louder than words.
Adios
Tim Burke
February 26, 2003, 07:34 AM
Where are fallout shelters?
Underground.
Where is NORAD?
Underground.
Where is the oil?
Deep underground.
Underground.
Where is NORAD?
Underground.
Where is the oil?
Deep underground.
techmike
February 26, 2003, 08:04 AM
I don't have any strong religious preferance either way, but it seems to me that many of the Christian sects have been as brutal as muslems over the course of history.
Gotta fall back on the old 70's soldier's motto Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.:
IIRC that "saying" has it roots in the crusades and was uttered by an early pope. (some of you with time to hit Google this morning or a better memory than mine could confirm that)...I think it was origionally something like "Kill them all and the Lord will collect his own" or something similar. Apparently a group of crusaders had a village surrounded and the village contained some Christians and some Muslems. The leader of the Crusaders send word asking for direction and the pope condemned the entire village to death saying that the lord would collect his own.
Without even getting into the Inquesition, the so called western religions have a pretty good track record of brutality.
All of that taken into consideration I am still in favor of the War effort....It's time to disarm Iraq...no matter how they worship there.
(yes my typing and spelling are really this bad)
Gotta fall back on the old 70's soldier's motto Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.:
IIRC that "saying" has it roots in the crusades and was uttered by an early pope. (some of you with time to hit Google this morning or a better memory than mine could confirm that)...I think it was origionally something like "Kill them all and the Lord will collect his own" or something similar. Apparently a group of crusaders had a village surrounded and the village contained some Christians and some Muslems. The leader of the Crusaders send word asking for direction and the pope condemned the entire village to death saying that the lord would collect his own.
Without even getting into the Inquesition, the so called western religions have a pretty good track record of brutality.
All of that taken into consideration I am still in favor of the War effort....It's time to disarm Iraq...no matter how they worship there.
(yes my typing and spelling are really this bad)
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