[admiral]

trying to work up a good 30-06 load for my new 700 bdl using 150 gr hornady spbt. decided to try reloder 19. THE PROBLEM - Max listed charge is 63.5 grain, decided to start at 61 gr. There is no possible way to get that much powder in the case and get a bullet on top of it. The max load (of 63.5) fills to top and runs over when the funnel is lifted. Think I ran into a similar situation when reloading 9mm a few years ago. Why do they publish this data if it can't be done?

anyone else experienced this phenomenon?:confused:

went with 60 gr, bullet right on top of powder, anyone use this load? results appreciated?

[Steve Smith]

Have you tried a drop tube?

[admiral]

nope, not familiar with a drop tube but if it is what it sounds like, i don't think it will help. i tried to settle the powder in the cartridge (and funnel) by tapping...but i don't see any possible way of getting 63.5 grains of reloder 19 in a 30-06 case (without running it through a coffee grinder first :D )

just seems like MAJOR compression?

[Steve Smith]

Sure enough, Alliant lists 63.5 as max. You don't need a max chage anyway, I'm sure, but starting at 61 should be good. Methinks a drop tube is in order. It does make a difference.

Maybe one of these guys has a good idea for a home-rig job. I'll probably employ a staw one way or another.

[redneck2]

I'd call Alliant before I pulled the trigger

[Steve Smith]

I checked the load on several sources. If they're wrong, they're not the only ones.

[Poodleshooter]

What kind of brass are you using? I've encountered several foreign brands of brass that have less capacity than military brass in both .223 and .308 (though not in 30-06). Loads have to be reduced accordingly.

[admiral]

brass is good old American Remington & Winchester

[trapshooter]

Have you checked the case length?

I have seen manuals with widely varying trim-to numbers (but I don't think any such variation should be enough to have the result you describe). Could be, though.

Also, it's easy to see what I call 'trimmer creep'. You set it up properly, but the adj. nut(s) come loose with much use. That's more likely in this case. If you are using trimmers that are manually tightened but don't have absolute length fixing, like the Lee manual ones or RCBS trim dies, the degree of force used to tighten the case down can affect the length. Lyman Universals and the old RCBS trimmers are like this. You have to be consistent when locking the case down.

Did somebody screw with your calipers? (Another fine mess it's easy to get into).

Or, it's just too dang much powder.:eek:

[GooseGestapo]

Admiral:
It probably is a combination of the particular lot of powder, and the lot of brass. I've seen this situation with IMR-4350 thru the years. Books have listed 60gr as max w/150gr bullet, but even w/drop tube I've never been able to get that much in a case. 58.0 has always been within 50fps of books though and very accurate. (No experience w/Rl-19 but powders are very similar)

Start with a charge that fills case to base of neck and work up until you find a charge that is slightly compressed. Best load will be one with best accuracy, best velocity w/o loss of accuracy if you have a chrono. My bet will be that depending on your barrel lenght that velocity will be close to "book" even though charge is 2-3gr light. Even as low as 58.0 gr will be sufficient for all '06 use if its as accurate as my rifles are.

In an '06, it is hard to go "over pressure" to a point of danger with the slow burners like H4831, Imr4831, AA3100, or any of the 4350's or Alliant Rl-19,22.
My favorite powders in '06 are H4350,Rl-22 (w/180gr bullets) Rl-15, H414. Best velocities with 150's is with Rl-15 and H414 (over 3,000 to 3,100), but best accuracy is with 60.0 gr of H4350 at 3,000 fps (2 different rifles with 24" bbl's). Though one is soon to get a .338/06 bbl.
With 180gr bullets, 60.0gr of Rl-22 is "It" for accuracy and 2,800fps. (Speer 180 flat base gives 3-shots touching with two different rifles). I really haven't used the 165's much. The 180's are superior in energy and the 150's for velocity/trajectory. To me, the 165's though accurate and versatile just don't "fit".

My older brother has used Rl-19 w/165gr Hornady SST, but prefers the H4350 as well. It is just a little "slow" for the 150's,(as is all "4350's" but accuracy should be outstanding).
As above poster said, 61.0 should be GOOD!

[admiral]

E-mailed Alliant and got this response

Thanks for everyones help.

You are not doing anything wrong. RL 19 is a great 30-06 powder and it does provide filling loads. As a starting load, we recommend that you reduce our listed charge by 10%. You can help the powder settle better by pouring it in slowly or by lightly taping the side of the brass after it is filled.
This helps the granules arrange themselves better. I recommend that you start with about 57 grs or so. Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know how your loads shoot. Have a nice day.

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
www.alliantpowder.com

I tried the tapping trick....kinda like tapping a whole 5th of whiskey into a shot glass. oh well...don't really need full house loads for brush goats, but it would be a nice option. will try 58-60gr and see what shoots best.

thanks again

[Steve Smith]

I still say the drop tube works better than tapping.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=FF021&type=store

[JerryM]

I have used drop tubes, and they do allow more powder in the case. However, I think it is too much trouble if you can find another powder that gives satisfactory velocity and accuracy.

I sometimes use H 414 if 4350 fills the case, or H 450 instead of H4831.
The Norma powders are dense, and as a result I use N204 and N205. I especially like N205 in my .270, 7MM Rem Mag, and .300 Wby Mag. Rather than use drop tubes I much prefer a denser powder of the same burning rate.

Jerry

[Art Eatman]

I've always had excellent results with IMR 4064. I'd suggest starting at 50.0 in commercial brass and work up. My own max load is 52.5, but that's in my chamber...

This has worked with most any old brand of 150-grain bullet except Winchester FailSafe, and both Remington and Winchester primers.

Art

[hps1]

This has worked with most any old brand of 150-grain bullet except Winchester FailSafe

What happened with the Failsafe bullets, Art?

The reason I ask is I am considering trying some in my 300WM.

Regards,
hps

[tex_n_cal]

I use R19 in the '06 myself. 61 grains usually goes about halfway up the neck. Don't have a drop tube, but it does seem like one of those exotic reloading tools I really, really need:D

[Art Eatman]

About the Fail Safes: Without thinking, I just stuck them in on top of my usual powder charge. I got a three-shot, 12" group, horizontal spread.

I read later in an article in G&A that the jacket on those bullets is harder than most others. This (I'm guessing) jacked up the pressure. It's not uncommon for higher pressures to cause the sort of result I had.

In other words, when making a serious change in type of bullet, start low and work up. :)

SFAIK, my "old pets" in the world of bullets (Sierra, Hornady and Remington BP) are pretty much the same as to jacket hardness...

Art

[tex_n_cal]

I did try some 180 gr Failsafes in my .300 win mag Ruger #1, with a fairly mild charge of 72 gr R22. It gave 2970 fps instrumental with the 26" barrel. Accuracy was startlingly good - 3 shots were touching at 100 yards.

For long range, I still like Nosler Partitions with a bit more powder, but this load would slay anything in North America.

[Mr. Chitlin]

Admiral,

I know you probably already checked, but you did confirm that your scale was set right, correct?? On the RCBS scale like I used to use, it wouldn't be too hard to get the slide 10 grains off, and you are maybe trying to put 71 grains in, instead of 61. If you are using a digital, and have calibrated it, then all of this is moot.

Just checking,

Bob

[hps1]

admiral:
Mr. Chitlin's question caused me to check my Nosler manual, which shows any powder charges which are compresse and they show up to 63.0 grains (max. charge listed) and do NOT shot even that charge to be compressed. Having never uses Reloader powders, I have no idea but perhaps there is something wrong with your scale????

Art:
Thanks for the insight on your failsafe experience. Sounds like what I am looking for in my 300 load, maximum penetration and weight retention. The harder jacket + basic design of the failsafe look like it may be the ticket.

By the way, the Nosler 5th edition loading manual has a notation: "ALWAYS begin with starting loads when using Partition Gold or Fail Safe products". This would seem to confirm your idea of higher pressures with your pet load.

Tex_n_cal:
I tried to get a can of RL 22 this weekend but couldn't come up with any. I have never used any of the Reloader powders as no one seems to stock in this area. Plan to try to get the 180 FS's to shoot in my rifle and have had lots of folks recommending RL22 for the 300 mag.

Regards,
hps

[labgrade]

Note the drop tube - it does help when on the edge of compressed charges.

Too, I've a load or two that entails that I throw 1/2 charges (w/drop tube) and still have to tap the case. Gets there, but a hassle & I should try a different powder.

One thing I noted was somewhere a quest for an expanadle bullet w/full weight retention.

If you're already in the stratosphere for $/premium bullets, try the Barnes X/XBTs. They're no more pricey than a Nosler Ballistic Tip or Partition & are a very superior bullet.

& too, depending on what you'd want an '06 150 gr bullet to do, I see no real reason to use anything more than a kinda standard velocity powder/bullet combo.

There's nothing much in the 150 gr bullet-class that can't be just as easily killed with 2500 fps that won't be done it at 2800 fps.

Good enough bullet w/placement will do anything you want.

BTW, I'd check that scale too.

[ed dixon]

What exactly does a drop tube do to facilitate better packed loads? Never seen one work. Believe you guys that they do. But what's the operating principle?

[labgrade]

Rather than a straight, big dump of power, it allows the powder granules to "seek their own center" - so to speak. Eliminates nuch of the spaces between granules, ed.

If you shoveled a whole bucket-full of gravel all at once, it'd likely overflow, but if you dribbled it in a few at a time, it'all fit.