Mossin Nagant Questions???


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Jedi_7.62
February 24, 2003, 07:34 PM
I'm getting ready to purchase a 91/59 russian carbine mossin nagant. Before I do I want to know if the shorter carbine version will still be good for the 700+ range and what are options for scopes?

Thanks,

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diyj98
February 24, 2003, 08:03 PM
The 91/59 will be just as accurate on average as the longer barreled Russian guns.

If you want an accurate military rifle, you also might want to take a look at some of the Finns, Swedes, or the Swiss K31's. All of which have good reputations for accuracy. My two K31's easily shot the 1 1/2" groups that Guns and Ammo got with their test. This was with surplus ammo and open sights as well.

I can't help you on the scoping part, I perfer to keep all mine in original condition. But there are a several mounts on the market for the Mosins. Hopefully someone else can give you advice on that part.

Jim K
February 24, 2003, 10:59 PM
As issued, the Mosin-Nagant rifles are not good choices for scopes. The split receiver bridge means high mounts are needed, even with a turned down bolt handle, and a turned down handle (unless extended) has very poor leverage because it is so short.

Potential accuracy is very good, but the longer barrel will generally give better accuracy. Some wartime rifles also are not as accurate as they could be, but accuracy was not an absolute necessity with "the enemy at the gates". Reloaders can find problems getting the right size bullet, as bore diameters are not too consistent.

My experience is the same as diyj98's with the Swiss K31 rifles, but they are top ejection and also present scoping problems (the Swiss sniper version has a small-diameter side mounted scope.)

A better bet might be something like a VZ-24 and then rebarrel and turn down the bolt handle. Still, if 700 yard accuracy is wanted, I would have to suggest something other than a mil surp rifle with a barrel which will probably not be the best, and lots of scope mounting problems.

Save the pennies and go for a U.S. made heavy barrel sporter. Pretty hard to beat.

Jim

Sir Galahad
February 24, 2003, 11:37 PM
I am a Mosin Nagant fan myself. But I like to shoot iron sights, too. My 91/30 has a near mint condition bore and so I can hit plumb center with it and iron sights.

But let me offer you an option to think on if you're looking for a 7.62 bolt action carbine. Take a look at the Ruger M77 International in .308. This is a fullstock (Mannlicher style stock) carbine with an 18" barrel. Yes, it will shoot out to 700 yards, though with any carbine, you will lose a tad with the shorter barrel. Nothing that can't be overcome, though. Here are the advantages of this rifle:

1.) The .308 caliber allows you to shoot inexpensive military surplus ammo. And you also have the option of high performance hunting and target loads, too.

2.) The Ruger M77 has an integral scope base. The M77s come with the scope rings free. This mounting system is rugged and practically bombproof. Check out a Ruger M77 to see for yourself.

3.) The M77 International comes with iron sights, so you can shoot it with or without a scope. With larger scopes, you may have to remove the rear sights, but it's easily re-installed if you take the scope off. Plus, there is a peep sight out that you can mount on the rear of the integral scope base if you want to go that route.

4.) This is just plain one of the handiest bolt action carbines there is. The action is a Mauser style and smooth as silk.

It costs more than a Mosin, but if you're looking for a bolt action carbine you can shoot now and scope later, look at the International. I am well pleased with mine. Since it comes with rings, all you'd need to do is get the scope.

Jedi_7.62
February 25, 2003, 01:18 AM
The Rugers seem very nice but I was looking for a little bit cheaper than $400 - $500.

I'm looking for accurate at long range say 700+, I'd like to put a scope on it and I'd like a calibre comparable to 7.62x54 or .308

If it is this much trouble to put a scope on a Mosin Nagant how did the snipers and sharp shooters do it in WWII???

I do have a soft spot for battle proven rifles.

I looked at a Savage a while back for around $350 thoughts?

Thanks for all the help,

I would like an M1 but can't afford that.

Sir Galahad
February 25, 2003, 01:45 AM
The only scope that works and fits properly on a Mosin is the original 3x Soviet PU scope and mount. It can only mount to a round (not hex) receiver. It mounts to the side of the receiver. Part of the stock has to be cut away and the mount screwed on to the receiver after it is drilled and tapped. If I remember correctly, you're limited to the Soviet PU scope because it's an odd size. The whole Soviet issue scope and mount set up costs $300. The turned down bolt handle can be had for $57. There's a guy who's doing these. There is a POS "kit" out there to put a scope on a Mosin, but it's a cheesy POS not worth talking about. Next, you can check into a "scout mount" to mount a long relief pistol scope on the rear sight. Requires no drilling or tapping. You can get a 4x pistol scope that would work well. But the guy making these (guy running a buz called Darrell's Scout Mounts) has a pretty long waiting list. There's another player making them now, too, and they run something like $50 to $70, I forget who this is and the exact price. Someone on a Mosin Nagant forum could tell you. But you're still going to spend money to get the mount. A good pistol scope isn't cheap, either.


When the Soviets made Mosin sniper rifles, they had them made at the factory as such. The stocks were cut, recievers drilled and tapped, and turned down bolt handles with longer stems all right there. It was an assembly line process. Making a regular infantry issue Mosin Nagant into a sniper version is not easy. For one thing, the Soviets usually culled the best shooting rifles off the line for sniper rifles and then fitted them out. Now, most Mosins are pretty accurate if the bore is in good shape. But Soviet snipers operated closer to the enemy than current U.S. snipers do. Soviets could sneak into the basement of a German held building and hold the whole basement for days before the Germans realized they had been there. Which was then too late because the Soviets would have wired the whole place and blown the building up and that's how they found out the Soviets had been there. Soviet snipers used ploys, stealth, tricks, patience and cunning to kill victims, not necessarily real long range shots.

By the way, the Mosin 91/30 has iron sights that adjust all the way to 2,000 meters. Find one with an excellent bore and you'd be surprised how well you can shoot with just iron sights.

Jedi_7.62
February 25, 2003, 01:58 AM
Thanks for the info.

I think I'm heading back to the drawing board put off that mosin nagant for a while.

My eye sight isn't very good so I was really looking for something I could put a scope on.

I'd be lucky to see a man at 1,000 meters but 2,000 meters
For me that'd be like putting wings on a bicycle.

Thanks open for ideas.

diyj98
February 25, 2003, 07:46 AM
Jedi, if you aren't strickly looking for a military rifle, then defiantely try the Savage. I haven't found them to be any more accurate on average than other new rifles, but they haven't been any less accurate either. You'll stand a much greater chance of getting an accurate rifle with a new barrel versus an old worn rifle. Plus the whole scoping issue will be easier.

Cosmoline
February 25, 2003, 01:44 PM
I'm in the process of putting a scout scope on my 91/30. Darrell is off doing other things and hasn't made any new mounts for a few months. Since I couldn't get one of his, I'm using a discount B-square mount I got for about $40. These mounts are NOT sufficient as designed. Mine came loose after a few dozen shots. You have to bolster them with plenty of lock-tite and maybe even stronger glues. But they will work once locked down with enough adhesives. Whatever you use, make sure you can remove it later when Darrell realizes that his true calling is to supply crufflers with scope mounts ;-) His mounts are simply excellent, and can be easily removed and used on whatever rifle happens to be your best shooter.

I would NOT look to any Mosin for 700 yard MOA accuracy. Not even the ex-snipers or the Finns are that good. These rifles, particularly the Ruskie ones, were made to withstand terrible punishment and to eat any ammo given, even when covered with dirt and crud. The tolerances were deliberately kept pretty loose. This makes them wonderful battle rifles, but keeps them from being tack-drivers without some serious re-working.

With a scout mount and a 1.5x or 2x scope, however, the 91/30's is surprisingly easy to handle and delivers some serious whoopass. I'm using mine as a 25 to 150 yard bear and moose rifle.

Clark
February 25, 2003, 02:13 PM
I have been making scope mounts for the Moisin Nagants with the discontinued Tapco AR15 scope riser. It is basically a block of anodized Alluminum with a Weaver rail on top. I cut a 1.23" radius on the bottom by tilting the mill head 45 degrees with a 1" end mill.

I then drill and tap the reciever ring with two 6-48 holes 1.8" apart.

The bolt handle is cut off and an extension is TIG welded on. The weld is then smoohed on the lathe. The extended bolt handle is then given a swept curve. The bolt handle is then TIG welded to the bolt body. I pay $20 to have this done. I always take my bolt appart, because the first one I had done got the firing pis spring fried.

I then clearance the bottom of the scope mount for the new bolt handle movement.

I relieve the stock for the bolt handle.

Clark
February 25, 2003, 02:14 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=135114

5ptdeerhunter
February 25, 2003, 04:07 PM
If you want to put a scope on a Mosin Nagant then I would suggest taking a look at the link I hopefully provided correctly. http://pub109.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm85

Clark
February 25, 2003, 07:55 PM
5ptdeerhunter,
Parallax's C&R Collector's Firearms Forums, they don't allow sporterizing talk, under penalty of bannishment, ask me how I know.

Cosmoline
February 25, 2003, 08:54 PM
IMHO there's sporterizing and there's bubba. I've seen some FANTASTIC sporterized Mausers, which are both more beautiful and more accurate than the military rifles they began life as. I've also seen many tragic disasters, including rare Mausers and Springfields, that were hacked beyond recongnition.

Parallax's forums are great, but too many on those boards have the attitude that all C&R rifles, no matter how many tens of millions were made, should be treated as museum pieces. To me it's a question of balance. For example, there's NO good reason to destroy the clip-strippers on a Mauser. Nor should the crest be destroyed. Both these things are done in traditional sporterizing and are profoundly stupid. Mauser stripper clips in particular are very fast and useful for any application. Wartime musket-style stocks are under-appreciated, as well. They can absorb damage that would bend the barrel on most modern rifles.

OTOH, if you find a real nice shooting VZ-24 or 91/30, I see nothing wrong with putting a permanent scope mount on it. Provided you're not dealing with some rare variant, most of these rifles are mix-and-match affairs anyway, with non-matching bolts. If you're talking about cutting a Finnish Mosin that saw service in the Winter War, or a German K98k in prime condition, I'd say leave it alone.

GLOCKT
February 26, 2003, 09:15 AM
Try this website they say they have them and the extras needed to snipe it.

http://www.aztecguns.com/Specials.htm#EX-SNIPERS

5ptdeerhunter
February 26, 2003, 06:55 PM
What are you refering to when you mean sporterize. I thought Jedi wanted a gun he could put a scope on. With the scope base at the link I provided nothing is done to harm the firearm. And If you want a gun to cut it up then just buy a new one that has the work done for you. I say don't distroy a piece of history by making a sporter out of a milsurp.

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