oh no! not ANOTHER ebr decision thread....


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spacemanspiff
October 15, 2004, 06:52 PM
so i've perused through many of the existing threads, and i sort of understand the differences between all the choices out there. there are some fine details i have yet to grasp, but i'm going to set that aside for a moment.

now, i know, the colt has a 1-in-7 twist, bushie has 1-in-9.
yes i know one uses a screw, the other uses a pin. (or am i confused?)
yes i know colt doesnt want distributors to sell to the civilian marketplace, and they are stabbing us in the back, blah blah blah.
all i want is a ebr with the bad cosmetic features, only to plink with, and occasionally use it to accessorize my fat-ninja costume.
barrel length isnt an issue. if you can convince me that a 20 inch barrel is going to be more fun than a 16 inch or even 14.5 inch, i'll go for it.


so the question is this:

if you had a choice between a colt m4, and a bushmaster m4gery, which one would you choose, and why?

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Black Snowman
October 15, 2004, 07:35 PM
For your purposes (which are basicly the same as mine) I'd go with a DPMS for 1 and 1 reason only. $$$
Of the two you have it narrowed down to, I'd say whichever I could find cheaper. (See a trend in my logic ;) )

El Tejon
October 15, 2004, 08:04 PM
Colt. Quality control and fluxed guts. If you can go 14.5 without major hassle, get it.

762x51
October 15, 2004, 08:44 PM
Rock River Arms for a tighter fit between upper and lower and better fit and finish. I own an RRA and a Bushy and prefer the RRA.

But if I have to pick one of your choices, Bushmaster. MP tested barrels just like Colt, standard size pins and holes, MUCH better customer service, and the company actually cares about gun owners. Not to mention the price difference.

Bushmaster will also do a 1/7 upper for you special order if you like. A 1/7 twist is nice if you plan on shooting heavier bullets....but if all you shoot is 55gr, than the 1/9 is fine.

My 2 cents.

Wildalaska
October 15, 2004, 08:57 PM
Throw this into the mix...what if they were the same price :)

By the way. and this is for the 9,000 time....

COLT CUSTOMER SERVICE IS AS GOOD AS ANY ONE ELSES IN THE AR/1911 BUSINESS....in fact, Ive had better luck with Colt service thatn I have had with Kimber and Springfield

WildbutheycantconvincesomefolksAlaska

Jack19
October 15, 2004, 08:59 PM
Neither.

IMHO the M4 style barrel on ARs that will NEVER see the light of a working grenade launcher are needlessly heavy. "Cool," at least to me, means very little.

I'm VERY happly with a RRA CAR stocked lower with a Bushie A3 Superlight upper. Fast, light, accurate.

My 2 cents.

762x51
October 15, 2004, 09:03 PM
Alot of folks will argue that Wild.....Bushmaster kind of set the bar in the AR world for CS. There are many Colt horror stories on the various forums out there, but very few Bushmaster ones.

Personally, I've dealt with Bushy a few times and been more than satisfied. Always quick to respond, and quick to satisfy the customer completely. Never had to deal with Colt though as I see no need to buy their rifles if they don't want me to. ;)

spacemanspiff
October 15, 2004, 09:29 PM
geez. give people two choices and you wind up with more than one handfuls worth of different answers.
:neener:

okay. so if both had similar prices....and if i wasnt really concerned with bullet weight....and if i was assured that whatever potential problems a m4 could give me would be taken care of by a world renowned group of gunsmiths....
and the choice is definitely between colt and bushmaster....

what then?
:D




i have a premonition that my impulse buying attitude earlier today is wearing off....so i'm going to give this a day, maybe a week, maybe a month, maybe 10 years, to figure out. but lets keep discussing this, since i could use some guidance in my decision.
believe it or not i am a complete nuub when it comes to EBR's.

for example, will that 1 in 7 twist mean i'll have horrible groups with lighter bullets?
will it mean the bullets will spin themselves into oblivion before they reach my paper target?
is there a huge price difference between reliable, moderately priced lighter weight .223, and reliable, moderately priced heavier weight .223?
its a given that i wont be a numbnut and buy wolf ammo. i think WA would give me a power wedgie if i came in with a stuck case because i wasnt smrt enough to learn from other peoples mistakes.

i've seen shooters breaking in a new barrel, they shoot one round, dissasemble, scrub the barrel, reassemble, repeat 20x.
will i have to do that? not that i'm lazy to fieldstrip a couple dozen times, just wondering if its overkill.

with basic iron sights, what is the rifle zeroed to? the height of the front sight always throws me for a loop, resting a few inches above the barrel.

am i correct about the take down pin? the colt having a screw instead of a pin? is the disadvantage that you have to have a screwdriver on hand? or is there something else i'm missing?

once again, this is just for a craps and giggles gun. i'm not worried about mutant-zombie-democrats and shtf. in the event something really bad happens, i'll grab my mauser and head over to WA's apartment to give him and his m4 some long range support.

Combat-wombat
October 15, 2004, 09:42 PM
It isn't the price- It's their politically correct bullcrap.

Harry Tuttle
October 15, 2004, 09:53 PM
heres a nice deal:
http://www.sarcoinc.com/guns23.html

1. Rock River Arms LAR15, like new condition 20” heavy barrel with flash hider and bayonet lugs (T8513 & T8515) $645.00

3. Stinger Arms Model MMS 20” heavy barrel with flash hider & bayonet lug (T10541) $575.00

small hole big hole datum:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/uppers/

doing the twist:
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

worth the read:
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15shootersSite/ar15brands.msnw

Ed
October 15, 2004, 09:56 PM
Most all of the surplus 5.56 is 55 grain. By surplus I mean federal or winchester or whatever. That is perfect for a 1/9 twist.

Wildalaska
October 15, 2004, 09:58 PM
Alot of folks will argue that Wild.....Bushmaster kind of set the bar in the AR world for CS. There are many Colt horror stories on the various forums out there, but very few Bushmaster ones.

Apochryphal internet horror stories should be taken with a grain of salt....everybody uses them to pursue an agenda..

Im tellin ya, as someone in the biz....as someone who stocks both Bushies and Colts, as someone that has sent Colts back to Colt, Bushies back to Bushy, Springfields back to Springfield, and so on, as someone who sees QC of guns every day, as someone who aint got an internet axe to grind (you arent questioning my veracity are ya?:)) AND as someone who deals every day with service departsments of Remington, Winchester, Browning, Smith and Wesson and Marlin, among others...

There is no difference between Bushmaster service and Colt service when it comes to ARs....NONE...in terms of QC colt is a bit better.....and I have a Bushie myself....

It isn't the price- It's their politically correct bullcrap.

Sigh....he has spoken....OK tell me what politically correct bullcrap you are talking about, illustrate same with specifics that you personally are aware of.....

Which political silliness spifster already says he dont care about.....

WildhelpthebruthaoutAlaska

41mag
October 15, 2004, 10:18 PM
"Quality makes it Colt"

I've never heard a catchy slogan from Bushmaster....

Colt wins.

Advertising makes it simple.:D

Combat-wombat
October 15, 2004, 10:31 PM
Not marketing new post-post-ban guns to civilians.
Removing bayonet lugs on AR-15s before 1994 legislation.
Installing sear blocks in AR-15s.

Wildalaska
October 15, 2004, 10:54 PM
Im gonna break my self imposed rule and respond to you Wombat:

Not marketing new post-post-ban guns to civilians.

Your post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning demonstrates the weakeness of your argument. One does not necessarily follow the other absent other facts which you do not provide, and wouldnt even have reason to know anyway.

Removing bayonet lugs on AR-15s before 1994 legislation.

So lets see, a cosmetic, non functional change in the weapon by a company who is the only major military contractor to sell to civilans is "politically correct bullcrap"...how about viewing it as an effort to ensure the viability of a company under increasing threat? Like a lug makes a difference, isnt that what we have all been saying....

Installing sear blocks in AR-15s.

So Colt, trying to ensure that people do not ILLEGALLY convert ttheir weapons to machine guns is politcally correct bullcrap.....??? I assume that when you are old enough to buy a gun you wont since every gun manufacturer has been putting politcally correct bullcrap in their manuals since well before legislation required it and giving away locks, all in an effort to prevent misuse of their product...???

Dont buy an Browning or an FN either, they wont even sell ANY AR15s to civilians...

Tell me how a sear block is politically correct by the way...Im dying to hear this one...

WildbacktospiffsquestionAlaska

Harry Tuttle
October 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
i thought the sear block kept enemy ninjas from remote viewing the shooter and targeting him with mind bullets

:evil:

Combat-wombat
October 15, 2004, 11:28 PM
Wild, why must you constantly be so rude to me? You talk to me like I'm a friggin' idiot. If you disagree with me, fine, you can politely state your opposition to my argument-I'll gladly admit it if I see that I was wrong-, but you insist on being arrogant and brash.

CombatwhatisyourproblemWombat


PS: spacemanspiff- I'd suggest a Bushmaster, I'll let you figure out why. :)

Mulliga
October 15, 2004, 11:49 PM
I've never heard a catchy slogan from Bushmaster....

Bushmaster - the best...by a long shot! ;)

762x51
October 16, 2004, 12:01 AM
quote:Not marketing new post-post-ban guns to civilians.



Your post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning demonstrates the weakeness of your argument. One does not necessarily follow the other absent other facts which you do not provide, and wouldnt even have reason to know anyway.




Don't want to get in the middle of a match between you two here.....but here is a fact to back up that statement:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Falcon007/ColtAWBltr.jpg




is there a huge price difference between reliable, moderately priced lighter weight .223, and reliable, moderately priced heavier weight .223?

And to answer one of spiff's questions from above......yes there is a huge price difference in 55gr and 77gr ammo. I regularly shoot 77gr BH blue box match out of my SPR and it costs about $25.00 per 50 rnd box at minimum. There isn't any inexpensive 73, 75, or 77 gr ammo available currently. 55gr on the other hand usually will run about $10 per box at the most for new manufactured NATO spec ammo.

Wildalaska
October 16, 2004, 01:39 AM
CombatwhatisyourproblemWombat

Some people say it better than me.....thank you oh mighty Tamara:

"When, for the thousandth time, some new user with a birthdate roughly coinciding with my third year as a trial lawyerl, who has owned fewer guns in their life than I've misplaced in the last hour, tells me how it really is, then my inner cranky old man chews its way to the surface and runs screaming about the room." (edited for accuracy in this case)

Get the picture there young man? Ya'll wanna play with the big boys, then buy some duck feathers...and read my sig

Back to your regularly sheduled posts....

Now 762, we've all seen that letter...still post hec ergo propter hoc and

There isn't any inexpensive 73, 75, or 77 gr ammo available currently.

HSM Moly Coated match is pretty reasonable, especially for the Spiffsater....

We get HSM 62 grainers by the can...that seems to shoot better in My M4gery Bushie that 55 grainers...

i thought the sear block kept enemy ninjas from remote viewing the shooter and targeting him with mind bullets

Wrap tinfoil around the muzzle instead

WildsuperciliousarrogantcreepAlaska

762x51
October 16, 2004, 02:04 AM
HSM makes a reasonably priced 68gr load.....no better price than BH or Georgia Arms though.....but if going for a 1/7 twist, why shoot anything less than 73 gr? Only reasonable ammo I have found is the Black Hills 77gr blue box at the price I mentioned above. If HSM does make a 73+ gr. load at a good price....please let me know. My wallet will be happy to hear the news. :)

762stillnotbuyingacoltthoughx51 ;)

c_yeager
October 16, 2004, 04:47 AM
if you had a choice between a colt m4, and a bushmaster m4gery, which one would you choose, and why?

Just go with whichever one is cheaper. They are both fine rifles and with your stated purpose 1/7 or 1/9 doesnt make any difference. THe military went with 1/7 so that the rifle could shoot some absurdly heavy tracer bullet. If you dont intend on hand loading some REALLY long match ammunition (and i doubt you'd be shopping for an M4 if that was the plan) i dont think you will notice any difference at all. They will both shoot 55grain surplus ammunition all day long without a problem out of either rifle.

I think think that there is a certain mystic with having a Colt marked AR15 though and that might be worth a small premium. Really you can't go wrong either way so just pick the one that tells you to take it home.

SunBear
October 17, 2004, 12:23 AM
Search www.tacticalforums.com :evil:

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