AR upper with a conventional gas system?


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c-bag
October 17, 2004, 02:50 AM
I was wondering if anyone has made an upper that has a conventional gas system instead of direct gas impingment. Since the #1 gripe I hear about ARs is how they deficate where they eat, it seems there would be a market for this. I'm not arguing that it's neccessary, just that the idea would be welcomed by some that want the light weight, ergonomics and aftermarket accessories of the AR but not the gas system.

Note: I don't mean the AR-180b, this would interchange with the regular AR-15 lower and preferably take some of the same upper receiver parts (i.e. handguards, ect.)

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atek3
October 17, 2004, 03:54 AM
try kurts custom firearms, ZM weapon systems, and the New HK M4 upper...

atek3

Chris Rhines
October 17, 2004, 10:57 AM
Since the #1 gripe I hear about ARs is how they deficate where they eat, it seems there would be a market for this. Well, that's the thing. This gripe is made exclusively by people who don't understand firearm design. The AR-15 direct impingement system is very reliable, more so than some piston systems (self-regulating, fewer moving parts, no piston to bend or hang up.)

The KKF and ZM Weapons gas piston uppers are heavy and expensive, and they don't no anything to make the weapon more reliable. So the market for similar systems is very limited.

- Chris

Kaylee
October 17, 2004, 11:26 AM
There was another attempt, back in the 80's I think, that was similar to the KKF - didn't really go anywhere for the reasons Chris has stated. I remember seeing the patent drawings years ago, but can't recall who built the derned thing. Anyone else remember?

natedog
October 17, 2004, 11:31 AM
The gas piston designs are neat, and keep a lot of crud out of the reicever, making cleaning easier, but it is debatable whether or not they actually increase reliability. The ZM weapons and HK uppers add about 1.5 pounds, but the the KKF installs in your own upper and weighs 4 oz., but I don't think it's out yet.

Gewehr98
October 17, 2004, 12:07 PM
Well, that's the thing. This gripe is made exclusively by people who don't understand firearm design. The AR-15 direct impingement system is very reliable, more so than some piston systems (self-regulating, fewer moving parts, no piston to bend or hang up.)

The KKF and ZM Weapons gas piston uppers are heavy and expensive, and they don't no anything to make the weapon more reliable. So the market for similar systems is very limited.

1. Don't make such broad assumptions. You're addressing an internet forum, and while there may be some mall ninjas in disguise, lots of us do have a good knowledge of firearm design, and aren't all uneducated as far as that goes. Case in point, I own an AG-42B Ljungman, one of the first direct gas impingement designs. Even that rifle is considerably cleaner in function than the Eugene Stoner's AR-15/M16 family. I've also been using the M16 as issued to me for just shy of 20 years, and still have no great love for it's method of operation. Does that make me an unwashed heathen?

2. A gun that doesn't jam up by virtue of a clean-running mechanism can indeed be more reliable. Think about it.

3. One of my two AR-15's will indeed be retrofitted to the KKF system, as soon as he comes out with the version for 20" barrels. It's small, lightweight, self-regulating, and fits underneath the stock A2 handguards. Eugene Stoner should be alive to see it. Colt even had a gas-piston M16 variant, the prototype pics are floating around on this forum. Again, broad assumptions about a given product without benefit of doing one's homework don't help your cause. ;)

Hoploholic
October 17, 2004, 07:00 PM
I recently purchased a prototype piston upper made by Hayes Research and am waiting for the big brown truck to drop it off. Once it arrives I will be more than happy to share my views on it.

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