[Minnesota Shooter]

Hey everyone, it's my first thread here. I'm somewhat new to the world of firearms, so please bear with me.

A couple of days ago I went to the local gunshop to look at getting my first firearm. I've fired a few rifles, pistols and shotguns, so I have the basic knowlege of it, but not much experience with many different kinds of firearms.

I immediatly was drawn like a damn magnet towards the shotgun rack, and noticed a particularly angry looking stubby mossberg persuader, all black, 18 inch barrel with a pistol grip on the back of it.

Man, I wanted to buy that wonderful slug spitting work of art right there, it just fit perfectly into my hand, it was love at first site.

I asked this cool ex mil guy behind the counter how much it'd run my, and he said 250. Right afterwords though, he said "you know you gotta be 21 to get this right?"

?? I was under the impression that it was 18 for rifles and shotguns, and 21 for pistols.

did it have something to do with the pistol grip being pre-installed on the shotgun?


Please fill me in, these laws have me confused.


Also, is a persuader a good first firearm? I don't hunt, it'd be strictly for home defense and fun at the range.


Thanks, Jon




EDIT: The only other shotgun that I was really interested in looking at was a Remington 870. Is one clearly better than the other, or is it just a personal preference thing, like Ford and Chevy?

[Dave McCracken]

Welcome aboard,Jon.

Dunno about the age thing, check with your local LE.

A shotgun with only a PG and no real stock is a large, cumbersome handgun of immense power, horrible recoil and little utility. Fun for a few shots, but not much use in the real world. Mine the Archives on this, it's a frequent subject.

Mossies are very good shotguns. Remington 870s are at least as good. I prefer 870s.

[SkyDaver]

Federal law for long guns is 18.

you can go to packing.org, look for state laws, go to minnesota, and find the links to your state's gun laws to find full details.

Ask at another gun shop, or at Wal-Mart ;-)

[Okiecruffler]

The wife drug one of those things home a while back. Fun to play with for a few rounds, damn near impossible to hit anything with. Didn't take me long to put a normal stock on it. If I were picking between the two, I would go with the 870, but the mossy with a good stock would fill the bill as well.

[Ala Dan]

Welocme Aboard!

Barring any state, or local statues you should be able to buy
a long gun at age 18; provided that your name, SSN, or DOB
don't crop up on the FED's "barred" list.

The Mossy 500 Persuader 12 gague is a heck of a gun, for a
"first gun". I owned one for awhile, and sold cuz it was so
unpleasant to shoot. That thing rocked and rolled like a darn
cannon! I must have got real lucky, cuz I got mine very early
on for $125.00. Later, I bought a model 500 "combo gun"
with the regular wooden stock, and pistol grip.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[c-bag]

Friend of mine has the 20" model w/a full length tube and synthetic furniture. He lost the Allen screw for the pistol grip; best thing that could have happened.

[mnrivrat]

18 is legal age to purchase long guns.

I think $250 is overpriced - especialy when you will no doubt get sick of the pistol grip only thing real quick and have to pay for a standard butt stock to replace it with.

Go to Wal-Mart if nothing else and buy a new full stock model for like $199.00 , use the other $50 toward a short barrel and you will be much happier I think.

Or , try looking around other shops including pawn shops for a good used shotgun - can't go wrong with the Remington 870 for example. I purchased one a couple months ago at Little Crow in Hutchinson. 1964 vintage Magnum Wingmaster for $125.00 . They always seem to have a good selection of used guns there and they are reasonable on their prices. (and only an hours drive from the twin cities.)

My local shop also has a good supply of used shotguns . I'm about 2 hours southwest of you.

[Marshall]

The dude was wrong, 18 yrs of age is the number.

US GUN LAWS .PDF (http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/articles_publications/publications/gun_report_20000401/GunReport_Chart2.pdf)

[Minnesota Shooter]

Thanks for all the responses people, this is definitely a good forum site.

I honestly didn't know that pistol grips were so apparently bad, I'll probably take riverrat's advice and drive out there sometime in the future and just get a full stock model, but get a pistol grip kit just in case...

[OEF_VET]

The requirement to be 21 is probably their store policy. Just because the law says you can buy it at 18, it doesn't mean they HAVE to sell it to you if they don't want to do so. It's kind of a "you can add to the law's requirements, but can't take away" situation. There's a shop in Clarksville, TN that has just such a policy. Why they have that policy is a mystery to me.

Next time you're in there, ask them why they require you to be 21. If they say it's the law, politely inform them of their error. If they say it's store policy, show them the money in your wallet and tell them it's your policy to only buy from people who want your money and who deserve to get it. Then tell them you're a member of a group of 14,000+ gun buyers, who spend A LOT of money per year on guns, and you're going to give every one of them the name of the store and recommend that they not shop there.

Frank

[Minnesota Shooter]

Hey, thanks for the advice, I think I'll do that, but then again, I may just look at other places, since after doing a search online, 250 is a good amount too much for a slightly used 12 guage persuader. Can anyone recommend some good chains that would have them? or are they all the same more or less...

I was thinking about cabellas, or sportmart, since it is a pretty standart shotgun.

[mnrivrat]

The Mossberg 500 at Wal-Mart are generaly cheaper than most other chain type stores. They may not have the particular model you want however.

You may want to go to www.mossberg.com and review what is all available. Under special purpose guns they make the Persuader with a standard stock as well as the pistol grip only model. They also sell one that is supplied with both a standard stock as well as a pistol grip.

If it is for HD and fun at the range you might also consider the 20 ga. models both in the youth version and the persuader models. (Wal-Mart should have the youth version) I personaly use a 20 ga. synthetic stocked Mossberg 500 with youth length stock and 18" barrel for HD.

[Marshall]

I personaly use a 20 ga. synthetic stocked Mossberg 500 with youth length stock and 18" barrel for HD.

Nothing insufficient with that at all! ;)

[Dave R]

Just a small clarification. If that Mossy Persuader had a pistol grip AND a shoulder stock, it will be fine to shoot.

If it has ONLY a pistol grip, it will be hard to shoot accurately.

Shotguns really need a shoulder stock to point well. Without the shoulder stock, its harder to aim than a handgun.

Some shotguns have both shoulder stock and pistol grip. That configuration will aim just as well as a standard hunting shotgun (in my experience). It just looks slightly more 'evil' because of the pistol grip.

[Minnesota Shooter]

I'm thinking of installing one of those metal folding stocks onto it, if only for the fact that now that I think of it, it would be kind of hard to actually aim well with the pistol grip.


Oh yeah, and I went to gander mountain yesterday, saw something that tickled my fancy.

Keep in mind everyone, that I'm looking for a shotgun to mess with, i.e tinker around with, experiment with parts, kind of a project gun, so the cheaper priced it is the better.

There was a slightly used 12 guage pump, Coast to Coast arms was the name of the company. The person behind the counter said one of the reasons that it was going for about 100 dollars is that something about the choke, and how it couldn't fire steel shot from it.

I told him I was just going to use it for home defense, so he said it would work great for that, "just saw off the barrel, you'll be able to shoot slugs an anything from it perfectly fine."


Hell, 95 bucks, I can't disagree with that price.


Has anyone heard of coast to coast firearms?

[mnrivrat]

Coast To Coast is a Hardware chain store.

The guns marked with their logo were purchased from various arms manufactures including Savage, Springfield, Marlin, Mossberg, etc.

Mossberg 500's were made for Coast to Coast for example and stamped on the reciever with the Coast to Coast logo. Same gun , just house brand logo .

Provide model number and what this gun looks like and I may be able to varify who manufactured it.

ps: Compare it to the Mossberg 500 and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck , it may be a Mossberg , I think they used model numbers like 660 or 600 or something on that order.

[Okiecruffler]

http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/1crossref.html

List most of the hardware guns and where they actually came from.

[Minnesota Shooter]

Thank you very much, you've been a great help!

[pittspilot]

I would look around for a used shotgun. I find that stores that deal in used guns tend to have tons of them in stock.

Many people buy them, and find them tough to shoot. So they become closet queens. I bought my Mossy 500 for $100. I tend to prefer the ergonomics of the Mossy. The stock was a little rough, but it had hardly been shot.

On went a Hogue stock, side saddle, quick removal sling, then I put in the practice.

I do not feel the slightest bit underarmed with that in my hands now.

[Minnesota Shooter]

Just for additional information, due to the copius amounts of bleeding heart liberal anti-gun nuts roaming around in my house, I'd like to make this shotgun the meanest, angryest looking scattergun I possibly can. That means, all black, pistol grips, folding stocks, and those nicelooking shell holder on the side of it.

Could anyone please give me some recommendations on folding stocks?



Thanks again,

Jon

[Onmilo]

Pistol grip in place or not,and especially if the full size stock is included in the sale package, the Persuader is still considered a long gun under Federal law and 18 years of age will allow you to buy it.
If the weapon is sold with just a pistol grip and no full size stock it can fall into the gray and murkey area of local or state regulations even though the ATFE still considers it to be a long gun.
State law supercedes Federal law.
If you really must buy and shoot one of these with a pistol grip in place then pitch the one that comes with the gun and buy a Pachmayer Vindicator grip, your fingers will thank you!
http://www.fototime.com/DAAF67A53885D75/standard.jpg

[AK47TIM]

If the shotgun just had a pistol grip i think that would make it a AOW or DD. I am not sure but you may have to be 21 to buy a "Any Other Weapon" or "Destructive Device" I don't know if this is the case or not maybe someone else knows.

[allanschisel]

The ATF has ruled that a "shotgun" with a pistol grip is NOT a long gun and is classified as a handgun when it comes to a buyers age. You have to be 21. This came out in an ATF newsletter a couple of years ago. You can argue that you do not like it, it makes no sense, it's not logical, whatever, I totally agree, but it's an ATF ruling with no exceptions for individual states. As for having a folding stock, I don't recall if the ATF ruled on that. It may of been left as a gray area.
Allan Schisel

[Minnesota Shooter]

Ok, thanks for the info.


So basically, I could go out and just get a full stock persuader, buy the pistol grips, and the folding stock and just put them on myself or even have the guy do it and it'd be legal?

But I can't get them put on with the gun....Interesting.



Oh well.


I saw a Maverick 12 guage at the sportmart I'll most likely be working at starting next week (go employee discount!)

it said it was at 250 origionally, but they rolled it down to 149 or so, so it's that, or that 94 dollar used coast to coast. I may just go withg the maverick because it's new, and the otherone isn't

[allanschisel]

If you put a pistol grip on the shotgun, you'd be in possesion of a "handgun" like firearm, so no, that doesn't sound legal. Check with the ATF on regs concerning pistol gripped shotguns. It's been a while since I read the newsletter, but I do remember it stated things very clearly. This isn't one of those gray areas open for interpretation.
Allan Schisel

[BEARMAN]

Just a heads up, if you are going to make a BLACK FUN TYPE SHOTGUN WITH ALL THE ACCESSORIES, stick to REMINGTON 870, MOSSBERG 500 or 590, MAVERICK 88( made by mossberg) or WINCHESTER1200. These are all pumps and there are a fair amount of specialty parts for them , while other guns don't have many accessories made for them. HAVE FUN ,BE SAFE.

[Onmilo]

Allen, I think the letter you remember from 'a couple of years ago' is actually the notice from 1985 or 1992, (I can't remember if the Styker was banned in the 86 law or the 94 law.), that letter stated that no revolver type shotguns that included a pistol grip, a large capacity detachable magazine, and a folding type stock, i.e. the Stryker, could be sold to individuals under the age of 21 because the ATF was in the process of changing the weapons status to AOW, any other weapon.


I cannot find any letters designating a pistol grip shotgun as a handgun in any of the notifications that I have filed.

I went to the ATFE website and can find no over 21 only age restrictions pertaining to pistol grip shotguns listed there either.

Again your state may not allow an individual to take possession of a pistol grip shotgun but I can find no Federal restriction.
If you can find this Federal restrictrion please let me know.

[allanschisel]

I remember the Styker/Street Sweeper thing. That is not what I'm talking about. That's banned for everone without special licensing. Isn't it now in the same class as full autos, short barreled shotguns, silencers, etc.? I remember the pistol grip/shotgun letter from the ATF very well. It's Federal, not state. Maybe it's in the "recent ruling" section on the ATFs website. The reason I remember it so well is I bought a Mossberg .410 pistol gripped shotgun for my daughter on her 18 birthday. She was not going to be living at home and I wanted her to have a firearm, something as close to a handgun as possible in case she needed to take it on a trip in the car. I wantd to stay legal as she could not have a handgun until her 21s birthday. I got that ATF news letter right after we got the shotgun and about had a heart attack thinking "What if I had gone ahead and transfered the gun to her?!" I'm totally sure about the pistol gripped shotgun not being recognized as a long gun by the ATF. BTW, I thought of just putting a stock on the Mossberg, but that 410 had some reliability isuses, so I sold it cheap. I got my daughter a Hi-Point 9mm carbine instead. At 3 feet, they look like very nice carbines. Get closer and you'll see they are very cheaply made. BUT....I fired at least 350 rounds out of it without one malfunction of any kind. Everything from CorBon+P to cheap WalMart ammo. It was fairly accurate out to at least 75 yards, so no problem hitting something across the room.
Allan Schisel