"Safe Rooms"


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twoblink
October 18, 2004, 05:38 AM
I'm watching some TV show introducing the finest celebrity houses in Beverly Hills. They showed a woman, who was so in fear of crime, that she has over 18 cameras installed in her house, and she has a "safe room" and looking to build a second one, for "peace of mind".

OK people, get ready for the price tag..

Her safe room (which is bulletproof (The walls are about 2ft thick of steel, it's basically a walk in vault), has it's own vent system, and a hard telephone line to the outside world) costs....

$200,000 !!!!!

And she's thinking about building another one!

Last time I checked, a Ruger GP100 4" + a box of 125 grain JHP's came out to be less than $500 total..

I'm no math genius, nor do I play one on TV.. but I'm just saying...

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Kaxter
October 18, 2004, 05:50 AM
They have their panic rooms, we have our SHTF rooms.

200 grand on a fancy room or .5 grand on a Sig...now who's the "intellectual"?:evil:

twoblink
October 18, 2004, 06:38 AM
http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/870expsyn18.JPG

$299 get's you an 870 plus a box of #00 buckshots..


"You broke into the wrong wreckroom!!" :evil:

Slaytera666
October 18, 2004, 06:38 AM
Panic Room was a great movie BTW.

seeker_two
October 18, 2004, 07:01 AM
A good quality firearm, quality ammo, and the skill and willingness to use it will make any room a safe room... :D

c_yeager
October 18, 2004, 07:53 AM
I just LOVE how people think that cameras make a place safer. Cameras are there so that they can CATCH the person who raped and murdered you, they do nothing to actually prevent the act from happening.

twoblink
October 18, 2004, 08:20 AM
Cameras are for the Crime Janitors ..errr.. I mean cops..

fistful
October 18, 2004, 09:00 AM
I need a room like that for my guns!

OH25shooter
October 18, 2004, 09:25 AM
One of the local millionaires has one in his house. A friend of mine who was working in construction took the wife and I on a tour. All I remember was it is off the master bedroom, looked like a bank safe, had a bathroom, electronic room and an area equipped for food and supplies to last a week. Couldn't check it out any closer, because the owner pulled up in his Mercedes and one "hugh" bodyguard. Our exit was fast! He never spotted us. It was 5-6 times larger than the one in the movie Panic Room.

Ktulu
October 18, 2004, 09:31 AM
I hate to be a wet blanket, but comparing what is essentially a light bunker to revolver or a shotgun is just silly.

HankB
October 18, 2004, 09:46 AM
$200,000 sounds like a lot, unless you're including full NBC capability . . . and a self-contained air system. I mean, back in the '50s lots of homes had fallout shelters built into their basements, and even allowing for inflation, the cost was moderate. All you really need is solid concrete walls, a vault door (preferably two, one at each end) and spancrete for the ceiling. This will stop entry by all but the most determined and prepared bad guys.

Call it a "tornado shelter" and you might even be able to take advantage of a Federal tax credit . . . IIRC there's a program for this type of thing.

I'd like one for my guns . . . my collection is beginning to overflow my safe. :D

41mag
October 18, 2004, 09:59 AM
A panic room would be imcomplete,IMO,if it wasn't designed to have an escape tunnel.

I would want to use it only as a temporary safe spot.ex.When the JBTs' kick in the doors & windows I'd(hopefully)be able to retreat to the panic room.Once there I'd be able to contact the news media & explain my predicament.Also my bloodsuc...I mean my lawyer.After my plight has been made known I'd then expect to make my escape via tunnel to a waiting vehicle(not registered in my name of course)located at least 1/4 mile away at one of the tunnels ends.I think I'd want a white Bronco just for ironies sake.:uhoh:



:neener:

Smoke
October 18, 2004, 12:45 PM
A safe room needs a cell phone. Land lines can be cut.

Safe rooms have many uses. Tornandos, hurricanes, home invasions by BG's or JBTs. Storage of valuables.

Some people are not up to arming themselves for defense. Some people are physically not capable. Safe rooms are good ideas. If I had the means, I'd build a $200k safe room myself. But my whole house didn't cost that much.

I'm sure that price is a small sum when compared to the total price of " finest celebrity houses in Beverly Hills"

To each their own.

Smoke

benEzra
October 18, 2004, 12:52 PM
A safe room needs a cell phone. Land lines can be cut.
In a safe room with 2-ft-thick steel walls, a cell phone MIGHT be useful for tapping messages in Morse code through the walls...

Don't think your reception would be all that great, though.

Justin
October 18, 2004, 12:56 PM
Panic Room was a great movie BTW. Except for the fact that had there been a 12 gauge in the apartment the whole movie would have been over in about ten minutes.

But it was very nicely shot, David Fincher is a good director.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

mtnbkr
October 18, 2004, 01:13 PM
Don't think your reception would be all that great, though.

Cellular repeater/amplifier systems are cheap and easy to install. You'll still have a cable running from the safe room to the amp, then to the exterior antenna, but unless the perp knows what he's looking at, he'll likely think it's some sort of cable TV equipment.

IIRC, a kit to cover a home is about $500 and would be overkill for a saferoom. Installation is just mounting components, running cable, and pointing the exterior antenna to your nearest tower. If I lived somewhere where the cell signal is weak, I'd invest in a system for my house.

Chris

flatrock
October 18, 2004, 01:42 PM
A safe room needs a cell phone. Land lines can be cut.

For those lines the line is burried, rather than just running outside the house.

What distance they are burried for likely depends on how much the home owner was willing to pay, but it's typically a different phone line than the ones seen comming into the house that would be cut by a burgler.

The point of a safe room is that you don't have to put yourself or your family at risk by confronting an intruder in your home.

You just get yourself and your family in the room, call the cops, and wait for the all clear signal from the dispatcher on the phone.

I just LOVE how people think that cameras make a place safer. Cameras are there so that they can CATCH the person who raped and murdered you, they do nothing to actually prevent the act from happening.

Cameras allow you to identify that there is a threat and where it's located without having to take the risk of going through the house to check if someone is there.

If the cameras record an intruder, it helps in prosecution of the criminals, or may help in their capture if they flee before the police arrive. They can also help with insurance claims.

I personally can't afford a safe room, nor do I live in an area where I am likely to need one. However, I do intend to reinforce the door to my master bedroom, and install a basic security system with a couple cameras to watch entries into my home.

Reinforcing the door won't keep out a determined intruder. It will give me a chance to be armed and prepared to deal with them if they forced their way into the room.

A good quality firearm, quality ammo, and the skill and willingness to use it will make any room a safe room...

An intruder that enters your home while you are there is also likely to be armed. If they manage to take you by surprise, you're basically unarmed. If you aren't surprised, you have the advantage of knowing the layout, but it's still too close to a fair fight.

I want to have them outgunned (12 guage).
I want to know where they are.
I want time to call the police, grab my guns, and take up a good defensive position before they can reach me.

That means a security system, cameras, and room with a reinforced door.

It also means keeping a loaded 12 guage in my bedroom.

bogie
October 18, 2004, 04:36 PM
Easy/cheap fix...

A nice heavy bedroom door - exterior grade if you want to go that far.

Reinforce the hinges and strikeplate, using 4" screws going into the house framing. They may take the door apart, or they may seriously splinter the frame, but the hinges and lock should still be holding when you start shooting.

Daemon688
October 18, 2004, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't mind having a safe room with 2ft of steel between me and the outside world. Certainly be nice for tornados and such. Cameras also give you a little pre-warning before someone is comming, not just to record the crime.

Dave R
October 18, 2004, 06:01 PM
Gen. Patton said that fixed defenses are a monument to man's stupidity. A safe room is essentially a fixed defense. A lotta money for not a lot more safety than "reasonable precautions."

An intruder that enters your home while you are there is also likely to be armed. If they manage to take you by surprise, you're basically unarmed.

The trick is to not be taken by surprise. IMHO, the BEST alarm system, deterrent, and first line of defense, all rolled into one, is your Tactical Dog.

You dog offers early warning, deterrent value, and first line of defense. I think a dog and appropriate firearms protection gives you nearly as much protection as a safe room, at a much lower cost.

And the dog is more fun to play with, too.

flatrock
October 18, 2004, 06:22 PM
The trick is to not be taken by surprise. IMHO, the BEST alarm system, deterrent, and first line of defense, all rolled into one, is your Tactical Dog.

Definately one of nature's best alarm systems.

Unfortunately, I'm alergic to dogs. I also live in a condo, and it's challenging to train a dog to only react to the proper situations rather than waking me up whenever the neighbors come home.

It's nice to say that the trick is to not be taken by surprise, but is it wise to assume that you won't be taken by surprise?

Time is something you can definately use to your advantage when defending yourself. Why take on an armed robber yourself when you can have the police do it? The best was to keep yourself safe is to avoid the confrontation.

A reinforced door gains you time. You can use that time to call the cops and prepare yourself.

A safe room gives you even more time.

The longer you can keep the intruder away from you, the more danger he's in from the police arriving.

Dogs are a good way to increase your security.

So are security systems with cameras and such.

So are firearms when accompanied by the proper knowledge of how to use them effectively.

Safe rooms are another good way to increase your security.

None of these are mutually exclusive.

Pick the ones that work best for you.

feedthehogs
October 18, 2004, 07:10 PM
Considering a 4 x 8 sheet of 1" steel goes for 5 grand, enough to make up a room is a pretty high ticket.

I used to be hooked up with a guy who designs safe rooms and teaches overseas and domestic self defense to the wealthy in Boca Raton.
I taught them the Florida ccw and intermediate handgun instruction. If they want ed to go farther he has a former secret service agent to teach them combat defense.
I had visited a few of the homes in Boca of stock and commodity brokers who have had a safe room built for self protection.
The access is usually from a walk in closet in the bed room. They have two to three days of food and water along with toilet facilities. The walls are reinforced with fire protection and a seperate ventilation system to the outside. Battery operated lanterns for light with a seperate phone line for outside connection. A cell phone antenna is mounted in the attic with a cable for an attachement to a cell phone for reception and transmission in case land line is inoperative.
The door is reinforced and will lock into the frame from inside.

But I learned real quick in the hurricanes last month the cell towers are the first to go out, then the land lines.
I didn't have any phone service for over three days on the second hurricane.

Most of the people who I had taught thru this program were pretty much afraid of their own shadows and were taken advantage of from those fears.

Really kinda sad.

VaughnT
October 19, 2004, 02:19 PM
FeedTheHogs, you make a good point in that most of these people are very scared individuals with no confidence in themselves to handle a violent situation. They buy the gun or the saferoom as a talisman that they think/hope will ward off the bad guy. It's a sop to their feelings of insecurity, but you have to wonder how well they'll do when the time comes if they don't practice the motions of activating their defensive countermeasures.

I'd love to have a tornado/fire shelter in my house, but that's not in the cards. For now, I have a few firearms and some training in how to use them.

Which is better? You decide.

KaceCoyote
October 19, 2004, 02:28 PM
Flatrock, if your allergic to dogs I would suggest a trained killer attack kitty. If you get one with thumbs perhaps you could teach him to use an AK?

Info on said defence system (http://www.dansdata.com/kitten.htm)

pauli
October 19, 2004, 02:40 PM
i've been thinking about building a small vault... wonder if a 6x6 room full of guns counts as a tornado shelter :D

Mr. Mysterious
October 20, 2004, 02:13 AM
The whole idea of a safe/panic room kind of boggles me. I understand the purpose, but if you are using it to protect yourself from other people, what are the chances that you get to it in time. I'm not sure on any of the data, but what is the difference in home invasions for those that have a good security system vs those that have none. The trick is that you have to deter the home invasion....thieves don't want to get caught, thus they are going to go for the easiest target. If you want to score some jewelry do you hit the home with the alarm system, or the house with none?

Now, I have no problem if people want to make a safe room to ride out a hurricane or tornado. I live in Indiana, so we get tornados, so I've been in the basement many times riding out a tornado. The longest time I've been down is maybe two or three hours. I couldn't imagine in areas that get hit by hurricanes what it's like having a mandatory evacuation, and then coming home to find your place looted. If having a safe room allows you to ride out Charlie, Frances, or whoever it is, and then emerge with a couple members of your collection to keep prying hands off your property, then all the better.

The score
Safe Rooms +1
Panic Rooms 0
Security System +1

444
October 20, 2004, 02:38 AM
"Cellular repeater/amplifier systems are cheap and easy to install."
Where do you get one ?

I would love to have a safe room like that. If you have the money, why not ? If nothing else it gives you a really big gun vault and an extra bathroom. And, if you actually needed a safe room, there it is. To me, it only makes sense to put something like this underground. More protection for less money. I always though the perfect set-up would be to have a basement with a hidden panel in the wall leading into your vault/saferoom or whatever you want to call it. The roof of the vault would be your back patio.

"The walls are about 2ft thick of steel,"
That is kind of hard to believe. It is certainly possible, but unlikely. In fact, if this room is of any significant size, I don't think you could build it for $200,000. But, who knows. Steel reinforced concrete, I have no problem with. But solid steel ? Imagine standing inside the room to weld the sections together. :D

mtnbkr
October 20, 2004, 08:53 AM
444,

I've talked to these people a few times: http://www.cellantenna.com/

The product seems good, but for our needs at work (coverage for just about every cellphone company around), it would've been very expensive (100K after hardware and engineering support/installation). However, the low end kit for a single provider is about $500.

You're looking for this kit: http://www.cellantenna.com/repeater/cae50.htm

They say it's on sale for $499, but it's been on "sale" for a couple years now, or at least every time I go to the page (every 6 months or so).

Good luck.
Chris

Gunpacker
October 20, 2004, 11:33 AM
Well, a safe room might be ok for some scenarios, especially if you are concerned about a home invasion type thing. Bad thing is that it gives a false sense of security. Bad guys aren't inclined to excuse you to go to one. In worst case scenarios, you still have to come out and deal with the situation later. Being locked up might make them death traps in many instances. Saddam Hussein did not find a lot of security in them.

twoblink
October 20, 2004, 02:04 PM
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/saddam_hole_dummies.jpg


:evil: :neener:

Smoke
November 10, 2004, 08:20 AM
Found an interesting article on how to build a bullet proof safe room for under $5000

I wouldn't recomend putting it so far from your bed room though.

Smoke

Kermit911
November 10, 2004, 08:35 AM
One of the wounderful things about rich people are that they are stupid.

twoblink
November 10, 2004, 08:46 AM
I hate to be a wet blanket, but comparing what is essentially a light bunker to revolver or a shotgun is just silly.

Errr..

No.. Since the room is $200K, and a shotgun is about $300... I'm comparing 690 shotguns to the room :D

cracked butt
November 10, 2004, 09:08 AM
I wonder if there is a way to combine the concepts of an armored catepillar D9 and a saferoom. It would allow you the ability to get away if the perps decide to try to smoke you out with fire.

Also the gunports would come in handy.

If only money were no object :evil:

Ktulu
November 10, 2004, 09:24 AM
Found an interesting article on how to build a bullet proof safe room for under $5000

I wouldn't recomend putting it so far from your bed room though.

Smoke

Care to share or is it in print?

Double Naught Spy
November 10, 2004, 10:32 AM
Her safe room (which is bulletproof (The walls are about 2ft thick of steel, it's basically a walk in vault), has it's own vent system, and a hard telephone line to the outside world) costs....

$200,000 !!!!!

And she's thinking about building another one!

Last time I checked, a Ruger GP100 4" + a box of 125 grain JHP's came out to be less than $500 total..

I'm no math genius, nor do I play one on TV.. but I'm just saying...

Ah twoblink, you have fallen into the common logic fallacy of many many gun owners. You think the gun is going to provide you defense against threats. This is not actually correct. A gun provides defense by using a projectile to harm the aggressor or threat to harm the aggressor. What a gun does NOT do or not do very well is stop rounds launched in your direction. It makes for a poor ballistic shield. What a gun does not do is to stop whatever intimidation the threat may be conveying to you. If you do need to discharge your gun to stop a threat, you might get lucky with a missed shot that changes the threat's mind, but if that doesn't work, you have to actually hit the threat with the projectiles from your gun, something you may or may not be able to do in a timely manner or well enough before the threat damages you.

Safe or SHTF rooms, IF (and it is a big if) provide safety via isolation from the threat. They do not harm the threat, but prevent the threat from harming the occupant. Safe rooms generally operate on the concept that that best defense is to not be 'there' where 'there' is defined as being a location where harm can be done to you.

Basically, the logic is similar with ballistic vests. Many cops are shot unexpectantly or before they can ever draw their service weapons and the reason they survive is NOT because they had guns, but because they had a means to defeat the aggression of their attackers. Their vests stopped the incoming rounds.

Remember, the fight isn't about whether or not you can kill the enemy, but whether or not you survive the fight. Too many folks win the fight, but are mortally wounded in the process. It doesn't matter if you win if the result is that you also end up dead.

The lady had a $200K safe room. Cool. There are much cheaper alternatives that are not that sophisticated, but that would work about as well for most situations..

Smoke
November 10, 2004, 10:52 AM
Care to share or is it in print?

Now how in the heck did that happen? ....I know I put the link in that other post....oh well, here you go.

Safe Room (http://www.michaelholigan.com/Departments/TVShow/seg_tscript.asp?ts_id=6021&text_type=M&text_page=1)

Smoke

TechBrute
November 10, 2004, 11:15 AM
I think the people who think that saferooms are silly don't have large houses. Just as a generalization, I think that if you have 3 or 4 members of your family in a 5000+ sqft house, you have an appreciation for a place that you can stash the weaker members of your family. For all the Rambos that like to clear their own apartment in their underwear, imagine having 2 stairways, front and back. Now imagine that you have to go get your two kids 1 who can't even crawl yet, and the other one doesn't get out of her bed without permission. Are you going to have your wife walking behind you carrying the kids while you clear the house? :confused:

I don't have a 5000+ sqft house, or 2 staircases for that matter. But I am in the process of hardening our master closet. It won't be bulletproof, but it will resist someone coming through the sheetrock or kicking in the door.

And twoblink... I already own a gun. ;)

Preacherman
November 10, 2004, 11:22 AM
Thanks for that link, Smoke. Very interesting!

FilJos
November 10, 2004, 01:42 PM
Someday when I have more money than I know what to do with and...oh yeah, A HOUSE, I want to build a secure internal room that is climate (Temp, humidity, etc.) controlled to use as a walk-in vault. I'd like to get one of those Vault doors that Remington makes that look like a normal interior house door and is remotely activated.

That would be neat.

PinnedAndRecessed
November 10, 2004, 02:34 PM
Or maybe these people would be better served to simply not be so pretentious. Their hearts are tied up in their treasures and their treasures are limited to this life.

Maybe if they weren't so ostentatious to begin with they wouldn't feel like a moving target.

BTW, dogs are a bigger deterrent than anything. A gun is necessary, but that comes into play only after the trouble has begun. A really big, ugly, smelly dog, as a deterrent, is invaluable, so I'm told.

TechBrute
November 10, 2004, 02:39 PM
P&R, agree about dogs, although dogs require attention, upkeep, a yard, exercise, cleanup, medical care, etc.

Sean85746
November 10, 2004, 02:46 PM
Okay...

EVERY room in my house is a PANIC ROOM

1. Loaded major caliber handgun ON MY belt, or close at hand
2. Wife armed with a Glock, and she knows how to use it
3. CAR-15 .223 with 2 30-rnd mags and a bandolier (mine)
4. Remington 11oo autoloading 12 guage with Choate Extended Tube
5. Twyla Von Puppymonster (Rottweiler-all teeth and muscle)

let's look at the economics of this:

My belt gun $450.00
Wife's gun $400.00
CAR-15 $500.00 (1990 money)
Remington $225.00 (1985 money)
Rottie $1200.00
Total $2775.00


Watching Twyla Von Puppymonster chase a misguided soul down the street screaming for deliverance....PRICELESS

R.H. Lee
November 10, 2004, 02:47 PM
I dunno. A "safe room" without an exit is just a potential coffin, IMO. How do you know the capabilities of your attacker before you go in there? He may just be able to defeat whatever barriers you've constructed. I would much prefer to be able to retreat if confronted with overwhelming force. YMMV. :)

Ktulu
November 10, 2004, 03:33 PM
Thanks Smoke!

Preacherman
November 10, 2004, 04:48 PM
Watching Twyla Von Puppymonster chase a misguided soul down the street screaming for deliverance....PRICELESS
ROTFLMAO!!!

:D :evil: :)

TechBrute
November 10, 2004, 05:06 PM
I'm intrigued by the people inferring that they and/or their wife will clear the house if a BG comes a knockin. I'm assuming they have no kids to worry about, and also train on a regular basis with their housemate, as anyone with an inkling can tell you that 2 people trying to clear a house that have never trained together will turn into a grade-A cluster in a heartbeat. One might assume if these people have kids that the kids will be bringing up the rear with the med kit and door breacher. One might also assume that clearing the house involves looking into both bedrooms and the living/dining/kitchen to see what made the noise, not clearing several thousand square feet of house, 5 or 6 bedrooms, a den, study, family room, media room, garage(s), etc.

I'm no Rambo. My family is going in the safe room and I'm taking a defensive position until the cavalry arrives. However, if there's no cavalry coming, my family is still going to be in the safe room, but I'll be "castle clearing."

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