[CaesarI]

Kimber's re-doing their website, apparently cause it wasn't wicked cool enough for them. I downloaded their 2003 catalogue, and what should my wandering eyes come across? But a stainless steel rifle with a synthetic stock that weighs a paltry 5lbs 2oz. The 84M Montana!

I have found her! Excalibur!

::cue fancy music now!::

Let's see here now light-weight, even with scope and sling it'll be UNDER the 6.6lbs (1KG for your metric folks).

The stock barrel is a little longer than Cooper would request, but if you cut it to 20" it'll be under the stipulated 1m or you can keep the 22" barrel and have the extra velocity.

Action?
"Two-lug, ninety-degree rotation [is] favored, as [is] the traditional Mauser claw extractor and positive ejector."
"The bolt knob should be smooth and round--not checkered--and positioned far enough forward of the trigger to avoid pounding of the index finger during firing."
The Kimber 84M does all that! Based on the pictures I can see it looks like one could machine it to accept stripper clips, which some of us prefer to detachable magazines.

I don't know if the safety disconnects rather than blocks the trigger though, and I also doubt that the magazine protects the soft points of the bullets. It doesn't provide any options for single round loading, but the trigger is adjustable, and can probably hit the 3lb glass rod release Cooper would like.

Pretty simple to fit it for the Ching Sling, as well as the scout scope (if you so desire).

You can bet money it'll shoot to within 2MOA at 200yards.

I can mount whatever back-up sighting system I want on it. If I want to follow the commands of Cooper I can mount the front post on further in from the barrel.

The only thing it would lack is the integral bipod.

The nail in the coffin for some of us though... it will be available in a lefty! Their 8400 series rifles are already out in Lefty configuration, and when I e-mailed the good folks at Kimber they informed me they had plans to put out a left-handed 84M.

Woohoo!

Call my quest officially over.

-Morgan

[Bergeron]

Uh, 1 kg is roughly 2.2 pounds (Near the surface of the Earth). I believe that Cooper specified a mass of 3 kilos, that comes out to a weight of about 6.6 pounds.

[CaesarI]

3KG is indeed 6.6lbs near the surface of the earth but I of course am at altitude, that changes things.

;)

Physics nerds :) . Yeah, it was a typo. 3KG is correct.

-Morgan

[Art Eatman]

What sort of money are they talking?

Art

[Mannlicher]

I was never all that much impressed with Coopers's expertise with long guns in the first place. His scout rifle still leaves me cold.

[swampgator]

I was never all that much impressed with Coopers's expertise with long guns in the first place. His scout rifle still leaves me cold.

I always knew you were a heathen.

[Sir Galahad]

Ruger M77 International: The "scout" rifle that never started or wanted to be one. And looks a helluva lot better than most "scouts", too. :D (And uses a real scope that detaches in seconds and has iron sights for back up.):D

[CaesarI]

Well before their website went down for remodeling they had an MSRP of $900 naked carbon steel gun with wood stock. And I found at least one instance of them going for $800 with a quick search online.

This was the first I'd heard of the stainless "Montana" The wood model still weighs in at a paltry 5lbs 10oz, and its got wood :)

-Morgan

[Art Eatman]

Mannlicher, are you trying to tell us that a fella who survived two nasty wars as a combat Marine and has over 70 years of rifle shooting is lacking in expertise? Could you outshoot him? Do you know enough more about the uses of a rifle to compare your expertise to his?

To which do you object: The fundamental concept of the Scout rifle, or Steyr's execution thereof? This question is much the same as, "Do you dislike the idea of cars, or just Checker's version?"

:), Art

[cheygriz]

Art,

I think Mannlicher is entitled to his opinion. I have considerable experience with long arms, both as a shooter and as a certified rifle instructor of many years.

If Cooper likes the scout concept, more power to him. IMHO, I agree with Mannlicher. The whole concept of the scout rifle seems flawed. I can see no use for it that couldn't be better served by dozens of existing rifles.

It seems to me that Cooper has fallen into the same trap as Jack O'connor and is trying to build the "one, all around rifle for every purpose." I don't think that an all around rifle is a viable concept. Just MNSHO!

[Art Eatman]

Hey, I'm a strong believer in folks' right to opinions! I just like to know the "why" behind them. Opinions stem from reasons, right? And anybody who posts at THR can question anybody's opinion--yours, mine, whomever's...

And, after all, the Scout Rifle stuff is just one small part of Cooper's deal. Sorta like, Henry Ford did a lot more with cars than just a Model T...

The reason I asked about Steyr's execution of the concept is that while I think I understand and can go along with the fundamental idea, I think Steyr produced an over-priced Ugly Thing. It's one of those plumber's friend looking deals: It sucks.

:D, Art

[El Tejon]

Sir Gal, FYI the Ruger RSI was one of the proto-Scouts.

Art, IME a Scout Rifle has to be used to be appreciated. But I am biased as I come from an academic background. But different opinions mean more money for the gun bidness!:D

[Tamara]

I heard some funny Steyr Scout stories recently; suddenly my desire to buy one has cooled off to 0* K.

Mebbe I'll scope out this Kimber...

[Soap]

Eventually I want to get a scout type rifle but I'll probably go with a Brockman.

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/bolt_action_prac.asp

Tam, Care to share?

[El Tejon]

Funny Steyr Scout stories? "So, a Steyr Scout walks into a bar. The bartender sez 'hey, the Col. down there on the lion rug wants to buy you a scotch and soda.'" Stories like that?:confused:

[CaesarI]

Brockman's rifles, are in most respects closer to the Scout ideal IMHO, than the Steyr's, except they don't make weight as well as the Kimber's ought to, even with a wood-stocked Kimber, and a synthetic stocked Model 70.

But they will do the stripper clip notch machining for $105, and cut and crown the barrel (to 20" or 19") for $55.

-Morgan

[Art Eatman]

El Tejon, my gripe is strictly with the looks, not the function. Rich Lucibella did an African trip with Cooper and commented that the Scouts performed exactly as intended.

Shifting emphasis, on "beauty": The car companies make dies on which they stamp out the sheet metal for the body parts. The dies for a Porsche cost no more than the dies for a Chevette. So why build stuff ugly?

:), Art

[Soap]

Morgan- I noticed that as well. But at this point in my life, 3KG vs. 7-7.5 lbs isn't too big of a deal. If I were to build a true scout, I would probably order a thinner barrel profile than the one that comes on the practical. It looks slightly heavy in the picture, I could be wrong though.

[CaesarI]

Well bearing in mind that the weight of 5lbs 10oz and 5lbs 2oz is with a 22" barrel, not the 18.5" or even 20" barrel Brockman's is offering, so there's some savings to be had there. It comes bedded, and free-floated, as well as with the Pachmayr decelerator pad. And even with all the goodies added on aftermarket will wind up being cheaper than the Brockman.

$240 Scope, $50 rings, $60 mount, $48.50 sling, $~5 3rd sling swivel, $105 stripper clip notch, $55 barrel cut and crowned, $~100 sites w/installation
= $663.5.
+$800 rifle
= $1463.50 and it'll weigh less, and be shorter in OAL.
saving me $1231.50 :eek: iff I provide the action... otherwise it saves me
$1527.95

With the money saved you could prolly afford to go to Gunsite. :cool:

-Morgan

[BigG]

I got a lot of respect for Jeff Cooper and anyone else who went thru two ugly wars.

Like some have mentioned, I have my reservations about the Steyr Scout at least on its bang for a buck. Further, I have reservations about Cooper's assertions that the bolt action is the crowning glory of the more than century of firearms design we have had since metallic cartridges were introduced. We (most of us anyway) demand air conditioning, automatic transmissions in our cars, microwaves, big screen TVs, and lots more bells and whistles to make our lives more comfortable or easier. Why should we think that rifles should be just the way they were when Peter Paul and Ferdinand were cranking them out contemporary with Henry Ford's Model T (or a bit before)? Just wondering...

[El Tejon]

BigG, I believe there is a misunderstanding. Uncle Jeff made no such assertion as to bolt-action weapons. He chose the bolt for the Scout concept to ensure that it would make weight and ensure reliability. He has been very positive about new technologies as applied to self-loading weaponry.

[Art Eatman]

BigG, you're circling us around to "purpose". If I think my needs include rapid fire and numerous shots, I really doubt a bolt-action would be my choice.

But a fella out scouting around for either Bambi or information about what other folks are doing? His primary thought is one or maybe at most two shots. :)

I toted 9-1/2 pounds of go-bang for 30 years. Just the thought of my 6-1/4-pound rig makes me wiggle all over with joy and happiness and wild anticipation! :D

Art

[Soap]

Morgan- I know that a built-up rifle won't be as much as a full custom from a renowned smith. If you add in the cost of the McMillian stock, plus all of the other things that Brockman does to the rifle, the cost is relatively close. One thing to not remember is the value of the intangibles.

Besides, when one is spending top dollar on a rifle, it makes sense to go with what you want. The Kimber has features that you like, the Brockman has ones that I would rather have. And I'll still be able to go to Gunsite. Hopefully I'll take 270 in '05.

[BigG]

Well, Art, Jeff has always touted the scout concept to be the "go anywhere, do anything" rifle. This goes back about a decade or thereabouts. His original pet was the Rem 660 or was it 600 with the doglaig bolthandle.

I am not against waxing nostalgic, hell, I do it myself all the time. I just don't think Jeff's delusions are all that much more valid than my own or any of ours, for that matter. The romance of the Colt 45 Auto and M1903 Springfield (or Enfield Jungle Carbine) is a frequent occurrence in the ramblings of said gun writer.

[Soap]

Jeff has always touted the scout concept to be the "go anywhere, do anything" rifle.

What do you think could not be done with a bolt action scout rifle? Of course there is very heavy game. Then there is ultra-long range shots. And combat. The good thing is that all three of these combined probably make up less than 5% of field shooting. Maybe even less. The scout doesn't do everything, but it can do a lot of things very well.

[BigG]

I guess my point is, Daniel, that I haven't done ANY of that - combat, big game, extreme long range shooting, etc., etc., however, I have guns and shoot them frequently. Why do I need an all purpose gun when I really have no "practical" use for it? In other words, since I'm basically living out fantasies with my guns, why should I live out Jeff Cooper's fantasies rather than my own? I find a bolt action kinda stodgy and retrograde unless it is in a mammoth caliber, then it has a certain undeniable sex appeal. :cool:

Just one more little question about the scout concept: I do not think a 308 is the best medicine for game up to 400 kilos or whatever his arbitrary cutoff point is. Yes, it can be done but a .30 150 gr bullet or 180 at most is not what I would think is best for a 900 pound whatever. Make mine in the 3/8" bore range, thank you. YMMV

[Soap]

BigG- I completely understand what you are saying. People always ask, "What is the best general purpose rifle?" I always ask them "What the heck do you generally do?" Most people don't like that reply for some reason. :)

The Steyr Scout fits great for what Jeff generally does, but it might not fit for what Dan or BigG generally do. Thank God for capitalism! :cool:

[El Tejon]

BigG, well, the bolt gun was chosen as it keeps weight down. Uncle Jeff has stated, on numerous occassions, that if you can thin down the self-loader in sufficient caliber (calling Eugene Stoner) do it. The caliber of .308 was chosen as it keeps the weight of the weapon down and as a militree cartridge is widely available.

Think of the Scout Rifle as the middle circle in a Venn diagram. Yes, the smaller, outside circles (big game, varmiting, "sniping") will need their speciality tools, but the Scout Rifle is designed to fill in the big circle.

This perspective changes if one generally plinks prarie dogs in North Dakota or Cape buffalo in Mugabestan.

[Sven]

I don't think that an all around rifle is a viable concept.

Especially if you have to justify multiple purchases to a non-enthusiast wife...

She: "But, honey, you said that the Scout was the one and only rifle you'd ever need.... ?"

[CaesarI]

1) Semi-Auto:

Cooper's Commentaries Vol. 1 No. 11:

I am sometimes asked why we have not given more thought to the concept of a self-loading Scout rifle. The fact is that up `til now no self-loading action has been produced which is light, simple, and compact enough to meet the weight requirements of the piece. A second point is that semi-automatic fire is of little concern to a man acting alone unless he is in danger of being overwhelmed by a hoard of iron-age types armed with edged weapons. I would never be opposed to the concept of a self-loading Scout, however, if I thought I could get it without drawbacks.

Given the present climate of public opinion worldwide, it may be as well not to jiggle the scales. Perhaps we had best let the crazies on the other side scream and yell about "semiautomatic" weapons and not tell them about a bolt-action Scout. What they don't know won't hurt them - in this case at least.

Cooper's all for semi-auto. If you can get the weight down. Though he does remark that a well trained man can fire a bolt almost as fast as a semi-auto, and certainly as fast as a less well trained person with a semi-auto, as the Brits demonstrated to the United States with their Enfields vs our Garand.

But... Cooper is something of an old-school military man. Hence his pre-occupation with single-round feeding. And his serious compunctions about wasting ammunition. But he has remarked that the Scout is not a general-infantry weapon. For that purpose he'd prefer the use of Semi-Auto. The Scout is for one man operating alone.

2) Caliber:

In "The Art of the Rifle":

The ideal cartridge for a general-purpose rifle is the 30-06. The 308, however, offers nearly the same performance in a shorter package, reducing the total amount of metal necessary in the action. Additionally, the 308 cartridge is universally available. This is not significant in Texas but may be in Kosovo. And, as to power, the new factory loadings of the 308 cartridge raise to the full potency of the 30-06 (which pretty much ends the discussion).

The 6.5 Mannlicher was used quite effectively to fell elephants by one Karamojo Bell, always with brain shots. The .308 is certainly more powerful than the 6.5 Now... Cooper doesn't condone its being used as such, but the point is that it CAN if need be. Placement, placement, placement.


3) How Big?

The weight limit for the .308 Scout is "about 500lbs" as stated in the 1st Scout Conference (http://home.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutconference.html) . Or "up to 200 kilos" in "The Art of the Rifle". This works out to 440.92 lbs (near the surface of the earth ;) ) Which is certainly an acceptable weight limit for the .308 especially if you're a good shot, and an ethical hunter.

Further, we're getting off track, as I was merely trying to gauge what other people think Cooper would think of the Kimber 84M as a scout rifle platform.

Further, I'll agree with statements about the glory of Capitalism being that we can all buy our own ideal for a General-Purpose rifle. I like Jeff's ideal a lot, but you'll note I'm not as smitten with the Steyr creation as he is, though it does have some finer points.

Anyhoo... just clarifying this that and the other.

-Morgan

[Slick]

Tamara,
Is that o degrees Kelvin? :eek:
Now that IS cold!!
Slick

[Soap]

Morgan,

I think its an excellent base as a scout rifle. Especially since its already under-weight! How do you think one could attach a scope mount to so thin a barrel? The Ching Ring might work if the barrel near the receiver is thick enough.

[CaesarI]

Either Beast Enterprises Ching Ring, or the cheaper XS Sight Systems (formerly Ashley Outdoor) XS/Clifton Scout Scope mount.

I hadn't considered that the barrel might be too thin actually... I might want to confirm the diameter of the barrel near the receiver, and question XS on the minimum size it needs to hold, as well as talk to Geoff with Beast Ent.

Thanks for the observation, I'm gonna send off a few e-mails.

-Morgan

[Mannlicher]

I don't normally rise to the bait, or offer justification for my opinions, but...............

I did NOT say I had no respect for Cooper.

I DID say, or at least intimated, that I don't value his long gun expertise. By that, for those that feel affronted, I mean to me, his handgun knowledge exceeds his long gun savy. Oh I know he was in two, or three, or seven wars, and was a fine American, but I there are others I follow when it comes to advise on long guns.

For our esteemed Mr. Eatman, in answer to his more direct query, I do opine, that the whole concept of a 'Scout' rifle is unsound. As Mr. Eatman alluded, the Steyer rendition is butt *** ugly, and WAY overpriced.

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it. :D

[Glamdring]

Well as far as I can tell, Cooper got most of his idea for a Scout Rifle from Mcbride's "A Rifleman Went to War".

Mcbride talked about short and handy battle rifles vs sniper rifles based on his experience in WWI.

My copy of Mcbride has a foreword by Cooper. Where Cooper himself says people have claimed that Cooper got all his ideas from Mcbride. Cooper says he hopes that isn't the case, but he certainly did get a lot of ideas and was strongly influenced by Mcbride's book (which he read the first time at a fairly young age).

[Andrew Wyatt]

The romance of the Colt 45 Auto and M1903 Springfield (or Enfield Jungle Carbine) is a frequent occurrence in the ramblings of said gun writer.

I have yet to see a reason why he is not perfectly justified in loving those guns. I certainly do.