[gqmanofdestiny]

The local gun store just started carrying the Aguila IQ line of cartridges. Has anybody used them, or heard anything about them? Their website offers some info, but I prefer personal experience to marketing claims.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have bought some twice, not because they are some sort of great defense round, but because they make a huge muzzle flash that is fun to see at night.

Here is the same stuff before they called it IQ ammo. Check the link...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/article2.htm

Conceptually, the stuff is cool, but in reality, it lacks penetration capabilities and so should not be used for defense ammo. If not used for defense, I can't imagine any other practical application for the ammo given the cost. It only penetrated 6.3-7.3" in ballistic gellatin and if you assume that the gel is generous and that in reality you will only get about 1/2 the penetration, then the Aguila rounds look very weak.

If you have a nice officer's-sized .45, you can get a really impressive muzzle flash that is almost frightening to have happen if you don't expect it. The Aguila rounds can also be a little louder than other ammo.

[HerbG]

I've tried this load in a Star FireStar .45 and in an S&W 457. Functioning was perfect and accuracy at 25 yards was good.

[Zorro]

Great Ammo for blasting Melons!

FUN!

Works on water bottles too.

[sanchezero]

I was impressed with an article I saw on it and bought some.

Shot 50rnds thru my 4" lesBaer. No malfunctions, but the accuracy was fairly poor. I was getting double plus a bit group sizes compared to nearly all other ammo I've shot thru that gun.

As far as penetration, I thot that was their big thing. The article showed how the bullet punched thru 3/4" lexan and still expanded some distance into ballistic gel.

I know, I know, the gunrags are NOT my friend :D .

[Zigokubasi]

sanchezero is right, here is the Aguila product info on the .45 IQ:

The 117 gn alloy hollow point bullet is designed to go through a ¾" ballistic polycarbonate plate, plus up to 12" of (10%) ballistic gelatin without breaking, maintaining the full weight. Such a plate will easily stop 9mm, .357 Magnum and .45 ACP bullets. However, if fired directly into a block of ballistic gelatin covered with 8 layers of denim, it will break into three or four sharp fragments going in different directions, which will not exit the gelatin block.

Note, the round penetrates deeper AFTER hitting the lexan armor, since that crushes the nose preventing it from fragmenting into 3 big chunks. Penetration looks to be 6-7" without the lexan plate in the way, but 3 large fragments means 3 deep, bleeding wound channels...but I don't think we'll know effiacy for sure either way until somebody gets popped with one. FWIW I bought a box, and I liked shooting them (BIG blast, very fast). I'll keep a few on hand, just in case I ever need to penetrate bullet-resistant lexan with my .45 :D

As a side note, check this page out: http://www.sheriff.co.wise.tx.us/cuffnstuff/12-27-02.htm

Here is a piece of that article on the Aguila IQ:

A new type of ammunition called the Aguila IQ, capable of penetrating bullet proof vests, is being manufactured in Mexico and imported to the United States through Centurion Ordinance, Inc. located in Helotes, Texas. This ammo is being sold to the general public and can be ordered over the internet. This ammo has been tested by the Michigan State Police Ordinance Unit and they found that the ammo does penetrate police issued vests.

Wonder if thete's any truth to this? Maybe they were using IIA test vests that would've been penetrated anyway?

[Double Naught Spy]

The Aguila round is not going to be penetrating bulletproof vests. I think somebody is very confused. The round has far too large of a cross section and to penetrate.

From the Wise Co. Sheriff's dept newsletter using Aguila information...
"We call them intelligent bullets because they recognize the hardness of the target at the moment the projectile hits it, and in nanoseconds the projectile configures accordingly. Thus, if the target is very hard, the IQ bullet will have superior penetration while maintaining its weight and size. If the target is ballistic gelatin, it will not over penetrate, transferring all the energy into the soft target, and breaking apart into three or four sharp fragments, each creating independent wound channels."

Were any of y'all aware that a non-living object such as a bullet slug, without the benefit of electronics or any other parts, has the ability to 'recognize' the hardness of a target and then to configure itself accordingly? That is pure crap. There is no "recognition" of the material being penetrated by the slug and the slug does not then somehow morph in nanoseconds into some sort of different configuration to best deal with the material.

As the old joke for McDonalds' special food containers...."Keeps the hot side hot and the cold side cold, but how it know?" You have to ask yourself how it is that a little piece of allow metal has the ability to make decisions and then perform transformations based on those decisions? Simple. It doesn't. That is pure marketing hype.

If the round was so darned good, don't you think somebody other than Aguila would be talking about how amazing it is?

[Zigokubasi]

Think past the marketing hype. If you'd done ANY more research at all, you'd know that what the Aguila marketing guy is talking about is very simple. The design of the round is such that the rim of the hollow-point 'crushes' on impact with a hard target, preventing it from expanding and allowing it to penetrate, thus the ability to pop right through bullet-resistant lexan. If the round impacts a soft target, then the deep nose cavity fills with material, and the bullet fragments along the three deep grooves cut along its length. THAT is what the mean by "the projectile configures accordingly." Don't read one article, then come in here all half-cocked and act like you're the new authority on handgun ammo.

As for your comment about cross-section, please. .50bmg has a pretty hefty cross-section, and it penetrates kevlar like a hot knife through butter. It has more to do with the velocity of the round in proportion to its mass AND cross-section. While I am of the "opinion" (note the quotation marks) that .45 IQ will not penetrate a kevlar vest, I found evidence (suspect though it may be) that indicates empirical testing that proved otherwise. Unlike your irrational diatribe, I am suspending judgement until I can confirm or deny the results of that supposed test.

[Double Naught Spy]

Wow, as the performer of the said "supposed test," I think I am being called a liar until otherwise deemed by Zigokubasi.

Before getting to the image, it has been my experience that wonder ammo usually turns out no better than already available and historic good performing ammo which it performs at its best and often fails significantly. So disbelief that Aguila IQ ammo is going to be able to magically do things not capable by other ammo is hard to believe.

The idea that IQ ammo is going to go through bullet resistent lexan because the round collapses in on itself and prevents expansion just plain silly. What you are saying is that a solid slug of the same weight, mass, cross section dimensions and fired at the same velocity would penetrate the lexan as well, and that is not the case.

Here is the picture of the slugs from my testing. On the far left is a Blazer 230 gr. ball round with a slug fired into IIIA kevlar in a previous test. Note the round has deformed some, but all in all is in reasonable shape considering how quickly it was stopped.

Next to the right is a Fed. Hydrashok Premium 230 gr. round and slug from a previous kevlar test. The opening of the hollow has actually closed down in a symmetrical fashion and the side walls collapsed outwards. This show precisely why regular hollowpoint ammo is more apt to be defeated by kevlar vests. The collapsing walls expand the diameter of the round quite a bit. If ball ammo with less expansion isn't penetrating, then hollowpoint ammo ending up with a much greater diameter certainly is not going to penetrate.

The grey and silver specimens on the right are the Aguila IQ 117 gr. wonder ammo. The three deformed slugs represent the two types of damage observed, collapsing in on itself and flattening and if hammered from the side. The fourth specimen has been borrowed, but looked pretty much just like the slug in front of the complete round. You might be inclined to think that since the slug collapsed in on itself and prevented expansion, a theory noted for penetration of Lexan by Zigokubasi, that it would penetrate the vest as well, but it did NOT penetrate the kevlar. This is interesting as the round should have been traveling at over 1400 fps after being fired from a 1911 with a 5" barrel. It appears to have maintained a smaller cross section than even the Blazer ball round. If the Aguila was going to penetrate based on its physical characteristics (weight, mass, velocity) and lack of expansion, this round should have done it.

The two slugs to the right show the flattened collapse of the slugs, neither of which penetrated the kevlar. If you look close, you can see yellow kevlar fibers caught in the folds of these slugs (seen as yellow in front of the silver, but darker in front of the white background, but all are actually yellow).

While I appreciate the link to my neighbors in Wise County (I am next door in Denton County), I don't know where they get their information. Sure enough, they state that the Aguila IQ will penetrate 'bulletproof vests.' That right there seems to be a hint of a problem. No vest is bullet proof. Vests are bullet resistent and rated for various calibers and velocities. The lowest rated 'bullet proof' vests are Level 1 and can be penetrated by a good pump BB gun. I have no doubt the IQ ammo or regular .45 acp ammo will penetrate those vests. In my test, out of date, used, IIIA rated kevlar stopped the Aguila with no problem when fired from less than 9 feet.

In looking at the Wise County information, what is presented seems to be opinion or speculation with no posted tie to a real source.

Zigokubasi, if you are going to be at Gunstock (www.gunstock.org/) this fall, I would be glad to show you the kevlar panel and slugs in person. While I am no expert and may be forced to default to opinions or results offered by those who publish on matters I can't fully evaluate myself, I do try to find information from multiples of sources to determine if said opinion or results are confirmed elsewhere or not. When I can, I like to do my own tests, as noted here. It is not always possible, but when it is such tests can be awfully enlightening.

I will close by repeating what I have found to be true and that many others have said previously in various forms. Various new rounds of wonder ammo come out every year with all sorts of amazing claims. The claims made usually fail to be confirmed by independent testing and the wonder ammo often fails quite badly. No wonder these amazing bullets aren't being scooped up by LEO departments across the country or having new legislation written to make such rounds illegal. They don't work as claimed.

[George Hill]

LOL, Double Naught Spy, you are awesome. That was great. Some of the best posting we have had in some time.
:D

[Zigokubasi]

I applaud you on your empirical testing Double Naught. However, you should note a few things that you apparently did not a few months ago:

1) I never called you a liar, nor insinuated such. Rather, I was pointing out that the moniker of "smart" should not be taken so literally with regard to the Aguila rounds.

2) I stated rather emphatically that I did not believe that .45acp IQ rounds were capable of penetrating a kevlar vest, but due to lack of evidence I "reserved judgement". You provided some evidence to the contrary that I appreciate, and since I doubt you are a liar, I will take into account from now on.

3) IQ rounds are not designed to penetrate "soft" armored targets, like vest-wearers, but rather "hard" lexan armor. The test you performed has NO bearing whatsoever on the purported ability of said rounds to penetrate 3/4" lexan. You did not fire at lexan, but rather kevlar vest samples. The properties are markedly different...

4) I never said that Aguila rounds would do anything "magical", nor anything that a round of the same weight and velocity would not. IQ rounds are substantially LIGHTER than normal .45acp ball, with a stiff power charge behind them, importing a rather high velocity. Coupled with the nose-collapsing properties mean that the round acts as both HP on soft targets and high-velocity ball on hard targets.

The test you perfomed was informative from the standpoint of confirming everyone's doubt as to the soft armor-defeating properties of Aguila's IQ ammo, but had no effect either way on the company's claim of the lexan-defeating properties of the rounds. You want to test that, go find some 3/4" lexan and shoot that.

As a side-note, I am no longer involved with The High Road in any way, and would neither have seen nor responded to this post if I hadn't left email notification on. Certain "policies" of this forum, coupled with my near-total disgust of the attitudes displayed by forum members during the Iraq War, led to my decision to leave this board permanently. So it would be rather futile to continue this thread unless you just feel like impressing George.

[Double Naught Spy]

Other testing...

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/23Feb03.html

23 Feb 03

From an LEO friend in WI:

"We recently acquired some Mexican Aguila "IQ" 9mm rounds. They are a 65 gr HP. We heard that they would penetrate soft body armor, so we tested them. We shot them into fifteen-year-old, retired Second Chance vests. We used a Taurus pistol with a five-inch barrel. Range was three meters.

No penetration. Not even close. Only the first two layers were penetrated, and deformation was minimal. This old vest also stopped a dozen other brands of 9mm rounds we shot at it, including all American manufacturers."

Lesson: Don't get excited about any of the "magic bullet" rumors that periodically circulate. No one has repealed any laws of physics recently.

/John Farnum

[George Hill]

Zigokubasi - Please relax. Best of luck in your future.


:rolleyes:

[Grayrock]

I saw some at Gibson's last weekend. The guy said they were great. Kinda pricey, though- and they were only in a 20 round box!!

[Apple a Day]

Great info versus soft body armor. Anybody do any tests versus glass or Lexan?

[greg700]

I recently picked up a box of Aguila IQ in .40 S&W out of curiosity.
Since I had heard the rumor about them being 'armor piercing' I tested them on some scrap metal at a local outdoor shooting range.

I can't tell you the exact thickness of the metal, but it was probably a little less than a quarter of an inch thick.

Using my USP Compact, I first shot it with a 135 grain hydrashok, then a cheap 180 grain? CCI Blazer, and then a couple of times with the Aguila stuff. The steel was dented by the first two rounds, but they did not penetrate. The Aguila ammunition punched nice little round holes in it.

This was never ment to be a real test of the ammunitions ability, but it indicated to me that it was more likely to go through a car door than my usual carry ammunition (hydrashoks or gold dots). So now I keep a magazine loaded with the IQ bullets in my car, figuring that if my first 11 hydrashoks aren't up to the job, then a change is in order.

It would be nice to see some real test results on other materials though...

[clubsoda22]

IQ rounds serve a purpose, just like magsafes. IQ rounds are made of aluminum alloy, and therefore you must shoot at something that is as hard or harder than the aluminum for the nose to collapse causing penetration. Kevlar is soft, which is why it doesn't penetrate.

The advantages to IQ rounds are that they will break up in drywall like magsafes, but maintain the ability to punch through a door or windshield if needed.

However, i'm finding, the more i think about it the less i want to use them. I can see it being brought up in court my use of "armor piercing exploding ammunition" during my so-called "self-defence"

I think i might just shoot off some of the stuff i have and switch to corbon powerball for my 9 and .40.

[BluesBear]

I missed this thread earlier.

Using a rear door from a late 80's Toyota Corolla the .45ACP Aguila "IQ" completely penetrated the door and went completely through the filing cabinet holding it up.

No other round did this.

Door was propped up against the back a steel 2 drawer filing cabinet*.
12 gauge #6 shot would not penetrate outside of FC from 6 yards.
All shots were fired from measured 6 yards.

The Aguila penetrated the car door (window up)(DR) the rear of the FC (FCR), rear of FC drawer(FCD) and front of FC drawer (FCF).
Test was repeated with window down with same results. No bullets were recovered.

Tested were; 2 shots each, fired at 90º angle to door
Shots were placed so as to miss the armrest and window apparatis. Inner door panel was in place.

Remington 230 hardball - DR-FCR-FCD
Remington 185 Golden Sabre - DR-FCR-FCD
Winchester 185 Silvertip - DR-FCR
Federal 165 Hyrda Shok - DR-FCR-FCD
Hornady 200 XTP +p - DR-FCR-FCD-DENTED FCF
Hornady 230 XTP +p - DR-FCR-FCD-FCF
CCI Blazer 200 JHP (flying ashtray) DC-FCR
CCI 185 Gold Dot - DR-FCR-dented FCF
Aquila 65 IQ - DR-FCR-FCD-FCF

Colt Lighweight Commander
Magazines were loaded with one round hardball 2 rounds of test ammo.
1st round was fired into backdrop so all ammo wasrecoil feed into the chamber. Sunny day temp was mid 80s.



Most will discount these results since there wasn't the prerequsite 4 layers of freshly washed Levi 501s on the outside of the door. :neener:



*edited since I found a few pics and the filing cabinet only had 2 drawers not 3

[Double Naught Spy]

I like the empirical tests. I did take some additional aguila to the range and shot it out of my 5" 1911 chambered in .45 acp. One thing is certain, it really did nothing to the steel targets other than remove paint. The steel targets, of course, are hardened, but the steel surface remained nice and smooth. No dents, dings, penetrations or errors.

They would like me me shoot any of the cars at the range and won't allow shooting of glass.

As for the lack of denim on the filing cabinet, as filing cabinets and car doors don't usually wear denim, no problem!

I would like to see some drywall tests.

Maybe Aguila does have some neat properties and maybe it will do some penetration of harder materials. That is critical to get to the soft human center inside. Of course once it gets to the soft human center, then damage isn't going to be too great.

[George Hill]

I am no longer involved with The High Road in any way... So it would be rather futile to continue this thread...
Come on guys.. drop this subject... Zigokubasi isn't here anymore... :rolleyes:



:neener:

[PCRCCW]

George,
Man...youre no fun!:neener:

Shoot well.........

[Black Snowman]

I saw this bullet on TLC's Modern Marvels - The Bullet

Except theirs was an experimental military ball round fired from a 7.62 NATO. It would punch through armor but deform in flesh. They said it was because the special alloy was scintered and when it compressed on impact with a hard surface it finished the scintering process and made the projectile solid and hard. Hense the better geletin performance after hitting the lexan.

Now, soft body armor should be 100% effective against this ammo since it decellerates it slowly (relatively speaking). However with a trauma plate it could harden the round and allow penetration of the soft armor benieth. Unless the trauma plates are behind the soft armor. I wouldn't think they would be for comfort reasons.

I think this materials technology is fascinating and I can see defensive and offensive applications for it. Anyone want to try further testing? I don't have access to the needed toys but would love to see my hypothosis put to the test.

[George Hill]

There are no magic bullets.
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Magic_Bullets.htm


But this bullet would be more attractive if it was 185 or 200 grains.

[FireInTheHole]

How would soft armor stop any .30 cal bullet @ 2500+fps???

I thought that the only chance of stopping a rifle grade projectile was by use of "hard armor", IE ballistic plates, etc.

EDIT: If you wanted to make a really nasty anti personel bullet perhaps some sort of .22cal penetrator formed into the base with a lead core/sintered head bonded to a copper jacket shaped to allow rapid expansion(maybe EFMJ?) if the head hit a soft target. If the target slows the bullet down quickly enough the hardened tungstun/DU 50gr penetrator would "slip" through the ballooned head at a fairly quick pace hopefully penetrating whatever stopped 60% of the rest of the bullet...

Of course this is all speculation. Designing a bullet like that might make it unstable in flight. *shrugs* And manufacturing one in .30 might land you in prison. (unless it isfor .gov :barf: )

[clubsoda22]

I think i still have the best point. The reason i am no longer using IQ rounds for self defence is (they were my primary SD rounds for a while).

A) Hypothesizing what the jury will think when the prosecuting attorney describes my "exploding, hollowpoint, armor-piercing, cop-killer, anti-personnel, high-velocity death bullets". Don't think they won't do this because they will, especially if it becomes a civil matter. This is the same reason why i wouldn't use hand loads for self defence; because some lawyer will inevitably say that i "load the bullets myself to make them more deadly"

B) I just don't find a need to shoot through cars that often.

[Preacherman]

Firearms Tactical Institute tested the .45 ACP Aguila rounds - see here (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/article2.htm) for details. Based on the extremely limited penetration, there's no way I'd use this stuff...

[Black Snowman]

I'm not a big fan of fragmenting rounds unless the fragments can do some serious penetration on their own. I wonder if this round would be worth a hoot if it were solid instead of the funky fragmenting configuration. It's already light and has a low sectional density which is hurting penetration compounded by the fragmenting design.

Fill in that big hole and those grooves with whatever the rest of the bullet is made of and maybe you could get some penetration worth having. Would bring up the weight on the round a little too (125 gr I'd guestimate).

I'm still curious if it hardens after hitting a solid object like the military experimental round did.

[Double Naught Spy]

Preacherman, thanks for re-emphasizing the data from firearmstactcial. The information is very enlightening and that is why it got posted early in the thread.

clubsoda22, the idea that somehow a lawyer will work the high performance bullet against you is unjustified for justified shooting. If you have a negligent discharge, then the round's supposed amazing performance might be used in conjunction with your negligence. Similarly, if you shoot somebody for a reason that is not self defense, the same issues may come up.

Nobody has managed to produce a criminal case where a shooting was ruled as justified but a decision went against the shooter because he used a mean sounding named gun, mega-lethal ammo, too big of a caliber for the situation, etc. If you are justified to use deadly force, whether you use a .25 acp or .50 BMG is not the issue. Both carry they same criminal/legal ramifications.

Of course in civil court, anything can happen. Hollowpoints are supposedly to cause the most pain and damage. Ball ammo can be called "bone crushing" ammo. No matter what you use, some trait can be pointed out about the ammo and made to seem horrific. Don't sweat it.

If the claims of Aguila are true, then maybe it could be billed as really safe since it doesn't penetrate dry wall so well?

[clubsoda22]

civil court is what i'd be worried about.

Anyway, I had never seen those penetration tables before and 6.5" just doesn't impress me.