Harvard students violate victim disarmament law: Rape expert dismayed


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atek3
October 20, 2004, 12:34 AM
Students Carry Mace Illegally

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=503898

Can you imagine the horror if some of these ladies where instead carrying effective tools?

To borrow a page from a human right:

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_foam.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_comeback.jpg


atek3

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JPL
October 20, 2004, 01:56 AM
Years ago it was illegal for people to carry mace or pepper spray in Washington, DC.

My wife was working in DC part time at a clinic in an area where a rapist was active, so the clinic director had a police officer come in to talk about ways to prevent rape.

The officer told the women to go across the river to Virginia and buy pepper spray, that they couldn't buy it in Washington, DC, because it was illegal to either buy or carry, but that it was a lot better to be potentially charged with a misdemeanor than it would be to be raped.

The only modicum of respect I have for most police is for that officer.

Lupine
October 20, 2004, 02:01 AM
So much for an Ivy League education.

Bet those who were attacked or raped thought otherwise. It's amazing what a little reality check can do to change your attitude.

There is a lot of truth, however, in the "it can be used against you" thing. If you don't know how to use it, if you're totally unaware, you're toast.

Students should be taught the truths about self-defense while their minds are still pliable. That's Moore's tactic--getting them while they're young and idealistic.

parados
October 20, 2004, 02:06 AM
Its amazing... the lengths to which the "law" will go to strip people of their basic right of self defense.

I know there are some powerful lobby groups in Washington DC - The "Murderer/Rapist Lobby Group" must be one of the most influential over there... the way they pass laws like that.

atek3
October 20, 2004, 02:11 AM
that sounds like a funny idea. register a domain like associationofrapistsandmurderers.org and send fake press releases and letters commending certain politicians for passing occupational safety laws such as gun bans :)

atek3

SMLE
October 20, 2004, 02:14 AM
Personally, I think that anyone who tells a woman not to fight back against a rapist should be shot in the head. :fire:

In fact I will apply that sentiment to ALL anti self defence twits. The whole "don't fight back" paradigm is what has caused the high crime rates we have. Anyone who says you shouldn't fight back is pro-crime and is therefore a criminal by association. If every citizen in this country would adpot a fight like hell attitude it would do more to reduce crime than any of the feel good BS laws they could ever pass.

Get the best weapon you can, learn how to use it to the best of your ability and when confronted by a criminal, fight back with everything you've got. Do your absloute best to kill the momser. I may get killed myself trying, but there will be meat under my finger nails and blood in my mouth when they find me(and a lot of empty 40 cal. brass on the ground too).

In the words of Admiral Halsey; "Kill the bastards! The kill more of the bastards!"

MP5
October 20, 2004, 08:00 AM
“We sell shrill alarms for ten dollars, you could carry a whistle,

My first good laugh of the day.

critter
October 20, 2004, 08:23 AM
There are several self defense options. Some emit a noxious gas (like pepper spray). Some make a loud noise (like whistles). Some have a bright light (zenon bulbs).

I prefer one that does all three: emits clouds of gas, makes a noise and emits light. My Ruger SP101 in .357 Mag does all three quite nicely!!!!!!!

MP5
October 20, 2004, 08:24 AM
I prefer one that does all three: emits clouds of gas, makes a noise and emits light. My Ruger SP101 in .357 Mag does all three quite nicely!!!!!!!

My second good laugh of the day :)

OF
October 20, 2004, 08:29 AM
Sounds like some people starting to wake the hell up that article. And the authorities trying to put them back to sleep.

- Gabe

Here's the article:


Published on Monday, October 18, 2004

Students Carry Mace Illegally

By LIZ C. GOODWIN
Contributing Writer


When living in Cambridge last summer, Brittani S. Head ’06 carried pepper spray to ease the late-night walk home, halfway to Central Square.
“During the summer the campus is much more deserted, and carrying the pepper spray made me feel a lot safer,” Head said.

Many students on campus purchased self-defense chemicals in the wake of more than a dozen sexual assaults in the vicinity of the campus last year, despite the fact that carrying mace or pepper spray is illegal without the proper license.

Head, who no longer carries the spray, said that she was vaguely aware of the law against carrying mace without a license, but felt that her safety was more important.

“I think it’s kind of a stupid law,” she said.

To legally carry mace or any chemical irritant in Massachusetts, you must obtain a valid firearm identification card (FID)—a process which, in Cambridge, requires proof of U.S. citizenship, proof of Cambridge residence, fingerprinting and background checks. There is a fee of $25 for the license and an extra $20 fingerprinting fee.

“It’s a dangerous chemical if used improperly,” Harvard University Police Department (HUPD) spokeswoman Peggy McNamara said. “You can blind and permanently impair people with it.

Police officers all have to be personally sprayed with it to understand the impact of it.”

A junior in Dunster began carrying mace last winter, after a student was assaulted in the parking lot of St. Paul’s Church.

“I felt like that could have happened to any of us,” said the junior, who spoke on condition of anonymity because she knew the mace possession was illegal. “So my blockmates and I ordered pepper spray on keychains over eBay.”

The junior said that the mace, for which none of the students had a license, makes her feel more confident walking the streets, and reminds her to be aware of her surroundings.

Prompted by two recent rapes in the Mission Hill and Jamaica Plain neighborhoods, the Boston Police Licensing Division stayed open late, earlier this month, to field increased demand for licenses to carry chemical irritants.

Susan Marine, director of the Office of Sexual Assault Response and Prevention, said she has seen an increased student interest in obtaining mace over the past few weeks, possibly due to these same rapes.

“If people call us about how to get mace, we refer them to the police,” Marine said. “We don’t take a stance on mace either way, but I understand it’s very controversial because it is often used against the victim in assaults.”

Others started carrying spray for personal reasons. Annelisa H. Pedersen ’06 said she carries pepper spray to protect herself from a potentially dangerous ex-boyfriend.

“I don’t know if I should be carrying this around because you have to have a firearm ID card,” Pedersen said. “I’m from Georgia where it’s completely legal if you’re over 18.”

Pedersen said she didn’t even realize mace was illegal in Massachusetts until she tried to board a plane, forgetting about the mace hanging on her keychain.

“A policeman talked to me at the airport, but I didn’t get into any trouble,” Pedersen said. “I just think it’s more important to be able to defend yourself.”

Coalition Against Sexual Assault Board Member Laura E. Openshaw ’05 said that the process of getting an FID is too difficult.

“Mace is primarily a defense weapon,” Openshaw said. “A fee and fingerprinting seem extreme.”

McNamara urged students to explore self-defense alternatives to mace and other chemical irritants.

“We sell shrill alarms for ten dollars, you could carry a whistle, or take Rape Aggression Defense classes,” McNamara said. “Travel in groups, walk in well-lit areas. The shuttle service and the walking escort services are all ways to stay safe.”

Some students feel so safe that they’ve ignored mace sent by concerned family members.

“I don’t carry around the mace my parents gave me because I haven’t even thought about it,” Tiffany T. Niver ’08 said. “I feel safe and it wouldn’t even be natural to carry around. It wouldn’t be much use in the bottom of my bag anyway, if I did get attacked.”

“My mother sent me up a new can of pepper spray, but I just haven’t carried it,” Head said.

geekWithA.45
October 20, 2004, 09:39 AM
If I hear one more alleged "self defense expert" suggest that women ought to be out in public only with large groups and only in well lit areas with a whistle, I'm going to barf.

In fact, I think I'll barf just on principle anyway.


You can't argue with the advice per se, it's good, but what you can and should argue with is the implication that it is sufficient, and that any additional means are extraneous.

Men, women, and responsible children have the right to walk in peace wherever they will, in groups, alone, in darkness or in light, and if it takes a can of mace or a handgun to make it safe, then so be it.

To suggest otherwise is to endorse the notion that the extent of our prerogatives are justly circumscribed by criminals, which are regularly found in dark alleys and legislatures.

Bubbles
October 20, 2004, 09:48 AM
I knew there was a reason I would never visit MA...

Also, if carrying around mace is a misdemeanor, what about other spray products, such as cleaners or insect killers, that may cause serious injuries to an attacker? While they don't come in small cannisters like mace, I'm trying to imagine some housewife getting busted for having a small can of oven cleaner...

txgho1911
October 20, 2004, 10:18 AM
Flash Bang.
Is that what you mean Critter?
Mine is less flash and more loud bang in the .45 barrel.

Henry Bowman
October 20, 2004, 10:20 AM
atek3 - I like your idea! :evil: :neener:

AZRickD
October 20, 2004, 10:22 AM
Hey, golly. The Campus Police sell "Shrill Alarms" for $10.

All is well.

You might wish to e-mail the editor letters@thecrimson.com

Rick

BenW
October 20, 2004, 10:33 AM
“It’s a dangerous chemical if used improperly,” Harvard University Police Department (HUPD) spokeswoman Peggy McNamara said. “You can blind and permanently impair people with it. Police officers all have to be personally sprayed with it to understand the impact of it.”
Not being a police officer, I would ask those LEOs here what they think of this statement. If nothing else, if it were that dangerous (and I know it's not pleasant), would police unions let their members be sprayed with it? On the face of it, this woman is either a liar or ignorant.

“I don’t carry around the mace my parents gave me because I haven’t even thought about it,” Tiffany T. Niver ’08 said. “I feel safe and it wouldn’t even be natural to carry around. It wouldn’t be much use in the bottom of my bag anyway, if I did get attacked.”
And so much for situational awareness.....

Dave R
October 20, 2004, 10:36 AM
“I think it’s kind of a stupid law,” she said.

Sounds like at least one student can think.

Hawkmoon
October 20, 2004, 10:39 AM
Head, who no longer carries the spray, said that she was vaguely aware of the law against carrying mace without a license, but felt that her safety was more important.

“I think it’s kind of a stupid law,” she said.

To legally carry mace or any chemical irritant in Massachusetts, you must obtain a valid firearm identification card (FID)—a process which, in Cambridge, requires proof of U.S. citizenship, proof of Cambridge residence, fingerprinting and background checks. There is a fee of $25 for the license and an extra $20 fingerprinting fee.

“It’s a dangerous chemical if used improperly,” Harvard University Police Department (HUPD) spokeswoman Peggy McNamara said. “You can blind and permanently impair people with it.

Police officers all have to be personally sprayed with it to understand the impact of it.”
I guess from this we can infer that all police officers in Massachusetts are either blind or impaired?

It is correct that in MA one cannot legally carry chemical spray without a permit, but I have never understood how they manage to force a simple aerosol dispenser under a firearms law. What's next, will citizens of MA need an FID to use pre-packaged whipped cream?

ssr
October 20, 2004, 10:48 AM
“It’s a dangerous chemical if used improperly,” Harvard University Police Department (HUPD) spokeswoman Peggy McNamara said. “You can blind and permanently impair people with it.

Police officers all have to be personally sprayed with it to understand the impact of it.”


Yeah. I like that one too. It's so dangerous that citizens shouldn't carry it because you could permanently injure somebody, but yeah, we spray all our police officers with it so they understand it's effects. :rolleyes:

Illegal to carry spray in Mass. without license? What is up with some of these places in the US?

Nightfall
October 20, 2004, 10:59 AM
“We sell shrill alarms for ten dollars, you could carry a whistle, or take Rape Aggression Defense classes,” McNamara said. “Travel in groups, walk in well-lit areas. The shuttle service and the walking escort services are all ways to stay safe.”

Some students feel so safe that they’ve ignored mace sent by concerned family members.

“I don’t carry around the mace my parents gave me because I haven’t even thought about it,” Tiffany T. Niver ’08 said. “I feel safe and it wouldn’t even be natural to carry around. It wouldn’t be much use in the bottom of my bag anyway, if I did get attacked.”

“My mother sent me up a new can of pepper spray, but I just haven’t carried it,” Head said.
They must have a lot of sand in MA for so many people to be able to fit their heads in at once.

NHBB
October 20, 2004, 11:42 AM
we are talking about a state that gives out a 5 year mandatory prison sentence for carrying concealed without a permit... there is no sense down there and the last few comments just goes to show the general attitude of the commonwealth populace.

carpettbaggerr
October 20, 2004, 12:27 PM
Since they're disregarding the FID requirement, and breaking the law anyway, why not carry a gun? Yeah, I know, that's too simple.

And the cops will look the other way for chemical sprays, but for something really effective....

Cosmoline
October 20, 2004, 02:11 PM
If they don't approve of pepper spray, why not just fill a small container with gasoline and carry a lighter? That would be legal even in Mass.

jnojr
October 20, 2004, 02:14 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“I think it’s kind of a stupid law,” she said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sounds like at least one student can think.

I'll bet she still hates guns and thinks they should be banned or tunred into modern sculpture or something.

hvengel
October 20, 2004, 02:26 PM
A few years ago in California they required a permit to purchase/carry pepper spray/tear gas/Mase. It was simple to get as you only had to watch a 15 minute video at the place that sold the stuff, there was no fee (or ony a very small one), it did not expire and it was issued on the spot. They repealed that law about 7 or 8 years ago because they realized how dumb it was. And this was in California!

Headless Thompson Gunner
October 20, 2004, 02:36 PM
It sounds to me like the "elite" are beginning to realize that all of the senseless laws they push for apply to themselves, too.


"It's just so awful to think that there are people on the streets carrying guns and mace and all. That's dangerous! That should be illegal!"

"What do you mean I can't carry mace?! There are people getting raped out here!! I go to Harvard, these things shouldn't be happening to me!"


Is it wrong that I see a certain poetic justice in this mess?

Brian Dale
October 20, 2004, 02:55 PM
"It's a dangerous chemical if used improperly," Harvard University Police Department (HUPD) spokeswoman Peggy McNamara said.Yes, and it's dangerous if used properly, too. That's the point. "You can blind and permanently impair people with it." And rapists do those things to their victims all the time.

"Mace is primarily a defense weapon," Openshaw said. "A fee and fingerprinting seem extreme." Exactly the same statements are true of handguns. And if one can afford to go to Harvard, I'd think that a carry pistol and some training would fit into the budget somehow.

GhostRider66
October 20, 2004, 03:06 PM
“It’s a dangerous chemical if used improperly,”

...as opposed to, oh I don't know, say rape.:banghead:

DRZinn
October 20, 2004, 03:12 PM
I bet if you asked those same students about guns, they'd say the same things they hear from the antis via mass media, EG:

But that's dangerous!
It would be used against me!
It might hurt someone!

etc ad nauseum.

Standing Wolf
October 20, 2004, 03:28 PM
Personally, I think that anyone who tells a woman not to fight back against a rapist should be shot in the head.

Too messy. A night in a small jail cell with Bubba would probably do the trick.

artherd
October 20, 2004, 09:36 PM
“We sell shrill alarms for ten dollars, you could carry a whistle, or take Rape Aggression Defense classes,” McNamara said. “Travel in groups, walk in well-lit areas. The shuttle service and the walking escort services are all ways to stay safe.”


"We issue a Special Ops officer for ten dollars, you could carry an M-16 or automatic pistol, and take a class at Blackwater" "Travel in groups, don't obstruct the sharpshooter's line of sight :)

The shuttle service carries 3 guys with KAC SR-25s that will pop a rapist at up to 150yards.

Oh wait, no, this whistile will protect you...

gunsmith
October 21, 2004, 03:25 AM
Also, if carrying around mace is a misdemeanor, what about other spray products, such as cleaners or insect killers, that may cause serious injuries to an attacker? While they don't come in small cannisters like mace, I'm trying to imagine some housewife getting busted for having a small can of oven cleaner...

Insect spray!?
Your honor,the rapist was also bugging me!

Actually I looked at a can of hornet spray and it said it is a felony (or federal offense) to use it in other then the prescribed manner,I can not remember which.

jefnvk
October 21, 2004, 11:33 AM
“Mace is primarily a defense weapon,” Openshaw said. “A fee and fingerprinting seem extreme.”

There ya go. Since all your carry guns are defensive weapons, no more licensing required, according to this person ;)

And somehow I think that if you're in a situtation where you need mace, and the attacker somehow does take it away from you and use it agaist you, the situtation isn't going to be much worse because of it.

Pilgrim
October 21, 2004, 11:57 AM
Not being a police officer, I would ask those LEOs here what they think of this statement. If nothing else, if it were that dangerous (and I know it's not pleasant), would police unions let their members be sprayed with it? On the face of it, this woman is either a liar or ignorant.

I am not aware of any instances where someone was permanently blinded by chemical agents. As for the deaths, generally post mortems showed the deceased was either loaded up on drugs or had an existing severe medical condition such as coronary heart disease that was just waiting for additional stress to push the disceased over the edge.

The training requirement that officers be themselves sprayed in training is to show them what their reaction to chemical agents is, and to demonstrate they can continue to function when doused with the stuff. When my department decided to issue OC spray, all the deputies had to endure being sprayed. Some, who had earlier exposures to CN, CS, and Mace, worked through it and continued to function. Others rolled on the ground screaming like babies and had to be carried to the water fountain to wash out their eyes.

SMLE
October 21, 2004, 05:46 PM
Too messy. A night in a small jail cell with Bubba would probably do the trick. THEN shoot em in the head! :evil:


I have used OC spray on a couple of miscreants while working security. I was totally underwhelmed by its performance in both cases.

jimpeel
October 22, 2004, 02:45 AM
To legally carry mace or any chemical irritant in Massachusetts, you must obtain a valid firearm identification card (FID)—a process which, in Cambridge, requires proof of U.S. citizenship, proof of Cambridge residence, fingerprinting and background checks. There is a fee of $25 for the license and an extra $20 fingerprinting fee. But the rapists get to rape you for free.

They don't pay for a rapist license.

If they are caught, they don't have to pay for their fingerprinting.

They can be of any nationality and don't have to prove it to their victims.

They can live anywhere and come to Cambridge to rape their victims.

Nowhere more does my sig line reflect than the state of Massachusetts. I'm glad I moved out of that Hell-hole.

EvilOmega
October 22, 2004, 05:08 AM
Bet those who were attacked or raped thought otherwise. It's amazing what a little reality check can do to change your attitude.

Hmmmmm.


Save the world, rape a politician.:evil:

GEM
October 22, 2004, 11:56 AM
Many college women in Texas carry OC spray. I bought some for my kid when she went to school out of state (Foxlabs). My wife carries it. So do I.

We don't live in MA. Look, they get what they deserve. I know there is a basic human right for self-defense but sometimes, if folks don't want to step up to the plate and change their own laws - tough.

Certainly, if I were on a jury - it's jury nullification for me.

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