[Master Blaster]

Hi All, I wanted to share my lack of confidence in NEW S&W revolvers with you.

3.5 years ago I purchased a 4" 686+, it was a salesmans sample, with the warranty card.

The dealer I bought it from said it had about 2000 rounds of UMC 125 gr .357 mag through it and it looked new.

Since I have put about 2000 handloads 4.5 gr of w231 and a 158 LSWC (800 fps) through it.

I have been watching the rifling disappear from the barrel. It now looks like a mirror, and the corners of the lands are gone, leaving very slight rounded humps where the lands should be.

In addition the firing pin bushing now has a big chip in it, and the chip has been growing, It also fails to carry up all the way on two cylinders in slow single action cock.

I called S&W and they are sending me a shipping label so I can send it in and they will have a look at it, the rep thought it might have been bad barrel steel.

A S&W revolver shot out at under 4000 rounds??????

I have old blued S&W revolvers that have way more rounds and the rifling on those looks new.

Just curious if any of you have had the same experience.

[Blueduck]

Weird? It would seem that if the steel was soft enough to wear from 2000 rounds of your mild lead handload it would have been completely gone by the time the previuos 2000 rounds of 125 grain UMC 357 rounds would have gone through it:confused:

[mikey357]

...well, maybe the barrel is LEADED to the point it LOOKS like the rifling is gone??? Just a guess...I've seen it happen before....mikey357

[10-Ring]

Good to hear that S&W is having it picked up and will inspect it. I'd be interested to find out what the problem is & how the fix it.

[Master Blaster]

The barrel is not leaded but thanks for the suggestion.

I have put way more rounds of lead through my model 19, and my model 27
the same 18 hardness properly sized and lubed bullets, driven to the same target velocity, a small amount of leading occurs in these other revolvers at the forcing cone, and is easily cleaned out with a bronze brush. The rifling in these other revolvers looks the same as it did when I acquired them.

The 2000 rounds of full power was a worst case based upon a guess by the dealer it probably had much less and mostly .38 spl shot through it. The rifling still had discernable corners to it when I bought the gun, it does not now.

Does anyone else own a 3-5 year old 686 or 686+ that they have actually fired 3-5,000 rounds through. I would like to know their experience, and if their gun is deteriorating as rapidly as mine.

Thanks

[P95Carry]

Bad indeed MB ...... and I would hope atypical. Does sound like something metallurgical cos sure as hell those loads shouldn't be a prob.

My ole 686 was I think approx C 1980 .... 6" ....... and boy was that gun well used .... constant competition work and lost count of rounds thru it ..... many, many thousands . and barrel never looked worn at all.

Hope you get some feedback from Smith on that.

[500swmag]

Master Blaster,
Current S&W revolver barrels are rifled using a ECR (electro-chemical rifling) machine. This leaves a bore that looks like a cross between a standard button rifled barrel and a polygonal rifled barrel, they don't have sharp corners where the lands and grooves meet and are very shiny. If however the gun doesn't group, well that is another problem and definately should be looked at. As far as the other problems, send her in and they will be taken care of. make sure you are explicit with the problems you are having. As far as durability, I had a 686+ in my desk that was used as a test platform. I shot over 10000 rds of full house 158gr 357 and she was tight as ever. unfortunately, because of inventory I was required to reduce the amount of guns I had in my desk and foolishly that is one of the guns I let go.:banghead:
BC

[Master Blaster]

500SWMAG do you work for S&W?

So what you are saying is that the rifling should look the way I described?

It never had very disticnct corners like my older guns but it does seem to be wearing, to me. The bore is so shiney that it is hard to tell. The chip in the bushing around the firing pin is very distinct and growing, the timing problem is only obvious when you very slowly cock the gun, and I have heard is not that unusual with the 7 shot models.

The gun shoots very accurately, and the action is very smooth, and the trigger pull is great, which is why I have been hesitant to send it in.

Do you have any idea how long the repair turnaround time is?

Thanks

[500swmag]

To answer your first question, yes I do.
...not actually being able to see the rifling I can only guess, but yes they are not sharp like old style smiths. They are also very shiny (sp?) which should make it less likely to foul. Try going to a gun store and checking out a newer smith to gauge yours. Although I would say that if it is accurate.... why mess with it.
The chip, while not functionally a problem should be fixed. As far as carry up, actually 7 shots should carry up stronger than 6 shots, it is usually 5 shot models that have a "closer" carry up. I would send it back if you are having problems. I can't say for sure what the turn around time would be, best to call custormer service and ask them.
BC

[Master Blaster]

Thanks,

I have not looked at the rifling on newer S&W guns because they are hard to find around here. AND I'm afraid if I touched one it would want to follow me home, and then my wife would want to use it on me.

The strange part is that when I looked at the rifling it did strike me as being more like polygonal rifling than traditional rifling, but then i was worried that it was all due to wear.

I will seek out a new one and inspect.

Thanks again, and welcome to the forum.

As far as the agreement goes, I know how it is to work for bosses that are not real bright, They get the golden parachute and you get Unemployment. I'm glad S&W has new management, folks that are interested in making new guns.

Why dont they simply repudiate the agreement since Clintoon is gone, and the Govt has not been able to live up to their end of the deal???

[CZ-75]

How does EC rifling compare to button rifling for:

A) Longevity

B) Accuracy

[bountyhunter]

"Does anyone else own a 3-5 year old 686 or 686+ that they have actually fired 3-5,000 rounds through. I would like to know their experience, and if their gun is deteriorating as rapidly as mine.

Thanks"

Yes. I have a 686-3 which I bought used and have shot somewhere between 20 - 25,000 rounds of .38 Sp ammo through and the barrel still has grooves. As stated above, it isn't sharp edged like some guns bores, but is there. Mine is still pretty accurate (have shot a 599/600 at PPC last month). It has a red dot sighter and I can hold a 1" group at 25 yards on rare occasions, 2" groups all day long.

[AC]

I've got a M642 with the new rifling and have 2,800 rds of lead bullets through it. It is holding up fine. I sure don't like the funny way the barrel looks but guess I can't complain. Since this is a 2" I really don't have an opinion as to whether the new rifling may be less accurate.

I'm particularly interested in the accuracy angle from the 4" and longer barrels with lead bullets if anyone would like to comment. Since polygonal rifling handles jacketed, but not cast, fine the real test will be cast bullet accuracy.

[Master Blaster]

Well now I'm leaning towards not sending the gun back, because my complaint about the rifling is unfounded it seems.

It would have been nice if the manual pointed out the new rifling method, for those of us with many older guns who are looking down the barrel when we clean.

My gun shoots very accurately with hard cast bullets 4.5 gr w-231 158 LSWC or 4.0 gr titegroup 158 lswc.

It also would have been nice if when I called customer service at S&W they would have mentioned the new rifling method and that what I was seeing was normal.




:confused:

[mdsteele]

MB,
I would send it back anyway due to the timing and bushing probs.
I have a new 617 that had to go back twice, and turn around was about two weeks, both times.

JMO. Good luck

[bountyhunter]

Yes, send it back. You have a "double action carry up" problem. It can be extremely dangerous if it happens to carry up just short of cylinder lock and then drops the hammer. The FP can get the edge of the primer and send the round straight into the side of the forcing cone. Not a problem to screw around with.

[HerbG]

I've been shooting DA revolvers a long time, but I've never heard of "carry up" before. Are you guys talking about the cylinder not rotating completely and therefore not being properly locked into firing position?

[Master Blaster]

Yes, the cylinder stop/bolt has not dropped into the cylinder stop/bolt recess by the time the hammer reached full cock in single action, or before it falls in slow double action.

[stans]

That represents a serious timing problem and it is time for you to exercise that warranty, send it to S&W and let them fix it.

[Master Blaster]

The timing on my 686+ is not that bad, I was answering herbG's question as to what not carrying up means.

On my 686, th timing is very slightly off on two cylinders, and you have to cock it very very very slowly for it to happen in double action it locks up on all cylinders when you pull the trigger very slowly. A couple of Amateur gunsmiths/ revolver enthusiasts at my club who looked at it did not even see the problem, I would not be surprised if S&W told me there was no problem, since if you cock it and pull the trigger normaly the momentum carries it up just fine.