Police stun 75-year-old woman


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matt33
October 20, 2004, 05:21 PM
Police stun 75-year-old
Rock Hill chief says Taser was used after woman attacked officer
By Matt Garfield The Herald

http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story/4124708p-3890580c.html

The Rock Hill Police Department is investigating why an officer used an electric stun gun on a 75-year-old woman who refused to leave a nursing home where she had gone to visit an ailing friend.
The woman, Margaret Kimbrell, said she suffered bruises on her leg and face after she was knocked to the floor by the force of the weapon, called a Taser.

Police Chief John Gregory said Tuesday the department is reviewing whether Officer Hattie Macon's use of the Taser was appropriate -- a step that is taken in unusual or high-profile cases.

"On face value, it looks like it was," he said. "We have a person who was asked to leave, who refused and who attempted to assault the officer."

Gregory did not say when the review would be completed. Kimbrell said Tuesday she's considering legal action against the department.

Kimbrell went to EdenGardens of Rock Hill, a retirement home on Constitution Boulevard, Friday evening to visit a friend who was scheduled to have colon surgery this week, she said.

Soon after she arrived, a staff member called police to have her removed for trespassing. A relative of the friend told an EdenGardens administrator she did not want Kimbrell there, said Larry Boesen, the home's executive director.

Police and Kimbrell offer two different versions of what happened after police arrived.

According to the police report, Kimbrell was sitting in a chair in a waiting area when Macon, 35, ordered her to leave several times. Kimbrell refused, jerking her arms away when Macon tried to lead her toward the door.

Police say Kimbrell eventually got up but walked toward the cafeteria after spotting someone she knew. At that point, the officer blocked Kimbrell and told her she was under arrest. Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer, according to the police report.

That's when Macon used the Taser and placed Kimbrell under arrest.

Kimbrell on Tuesday disagreed with that version of events.

She said she did not swing her arm or threaten Macon.

"As weak as I am, how could I do that?" said Kimbrell, who has arthritis and suffered six broken ribs in a recent fall in her back yard. "Maybe I was trespassing, but I didn't know it. I thought they would understand."

She said she got upset because no one would tell her where her friend was -- or even if he was alive.

"I thought he had died," she said. "I was trying to keep from crying."

Kimbrell said Macon pressed the Taser to her back and used it during the exchange, causing Kimbrell to hit the floor.

"It was the worst pain," said Kimbrell. "It felt like something going through my body. I thought I was dying. I said, 'Lord, let it be over.'"

Kimbrell said she asked the officer and others at the scene to dial 911 because she was hurt. According to the police report, no one was injured in the incident.

Macon could not be reached for comment.

Kimbrell, of 1211 Meadow Lakes Road, was taken to the police department and later issued a citation for resisting police and trespassing. She spent three hours in a police holding area until her daughter, Donna, picked her up around 10 p.m., she said.

Kimbrell said she later learned her ailing friend was out taking a walk during the incident.

Review has been launched

According to the department's policy manual, cases when officers can use Tasers include when a suspect is threatening to punch or kick, or when officers "reasonably believe a suspect poses a credible threat."

"I have to believe at that moment, that's what the officer had to believe," Gregory said. "We have to look at what was reasonable under the circumstances. The determination about somebody being right or wrong has not been made."

Macon, who joined the department almost 18 months ago, remains on duty, said Gregory. The department has received no previous complaints about her performance.

"I can't overemphasize how concerned I am," said Gregory. "This case is getting a lot of attention, and I understand that ... If we find excessive force was used, we will take the appropriate disciplinary action."

The department is aware that Kimbrell and her family are planning to file a formal complaint, Gregory said.

Tasers prove effective

Nearly all of Rock Hill's 110 police officers have carried Tasers since last year, Gregory said. They've been used 57 times this year with no injuries reported, he said.

Before they are issued the device, officers must complete a four-hour training course that includes having a Taser used on them. They also must take a refresher course once a year.

Macon took the refresher course last month, said Capt. Charles Cabannis.

The devices have proven safer and more effective than batons and pepper spray, Gregory said.

"We have noticed a substatial reduction in injuries to suspects and officers since we've used them," he said. "It's kept us from having to fight people. We haven't had to beat anybody with clubs."

Gregory said an official from the S.C. Criminal Justice Academy had called Tuesday morning to ask if the department could lead a Taser training exercise for other state agencies -- a sign that the department's policies are well-respected.

"They're using us as an example," Gregory said. "We have a strict policy."

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Zrex
October 20, 2004, 05:26 PM
Why is it that the newspaper feels compelled to print the address of the old woman who got Tasered, but wont print the address of the cop who did it?

Shield529
October 20, 2004, 05:31 PM
These ##%@% morons with badges are not helping my cause to prove that most cops are good people and normal citizens.

wasrjoe
October 20, 2004, 05:35 PM
ASSUMING everything being reported in this case to be factual, it sounds like there was definitely excessive force used.

Police say Kimbrell eventually got up but walked toward the cafeteria after spotting someone she knew. At that point, the officer blocked Kimbrell and told her she was under arrest. Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer, according to the police report.

That's when Macon used the Taser and placed Kimbrell under arrest.

I'm sorry, but unless something is being left out (which is a distinct possibility), I don't see how a 75 year old lady poses a taserable threat by swinging an arm.

AF_INT1N0
October 20, 2004, 05:46 PM
Shield529--

Problem is the normal, nice cops aren't news worthy. It's those that have thier heads up their A$$ that make ratings.

Same premise behide war coverage.

Shield529
October 20, 2004, 05:49 PM
Some points I have:

1. "Police say Kimbrell eventually got up but walked toward the cafeteria after spotting someone she knew. At that point, the officer blocked Kimbrell and told her she was under arrest. Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer, according to the police report."

So what if she swung her arm, shes 75 against a ?trained? police officer. she cannot hurt anyone.

2. "That's when Macon used the Taser and placed Kimbrell under arrest"


What the h@#$, I believe there is a use of force continuem that does not ever begin with Taser. Why did this nut case not try talking first maybe backing away and getting help from other, maybe intelligent, people. Taser should have never been in anyones mind.

3.She said she got upset because no one would tell her where her friend was -- or even if he was alive.

"I thought he had died," she said. "I was trying to keep from crying."

Kimbrell said Macon pressed the Taser to her back and used it during the exchange, causing Kimbrell to hit the floor.

"It was the worst pain," said Kimbrell. "It felt like something going through my body. I thought I was dying. I said, 'Lord, let it be over.'"


If this is true, and I have a bad feeling it is, this officer should burn in hell forever. I won't even lie I almost cried seeing this. How any person could do this to an old lady defies all reason and morals I have ever known.

I could go on but I won't I hope this officer is arrested, tried and convicted of Felony Battery and Elderly Abuse. I hope she gets to spend at least 24-36 months before release and 10 years parole minimum.
I will be watching this case with intrest.

Zrex
October 20, 2004, 06:52 PM
It is amazing the amount of information you can find on someone using the free resources available on the internet.

You can find out where someone lives, even if unlisted in phone book. You can find out what they drive. You can find out when they bought their house, who holds the mortgage and for how much. You can even get copies of the survey for their houses. As a matter of fact, I just found Officer Hattie Macon's DD214 online. Weird that you can find that stuff. I guess digging into peoples personal lives cuts both ways.

Edward429451
October 20, 2004, 07:12 PM
These ##%@% morons with badges are not helping my cause to prove that most cops are good people and normal citizens.

That's what I like to hear!! Very encouraging and totally respectable statement. There may be hope yet for improved relations.

You made my day with that sir.:) Thanks.

westex
October 20, 2004, 07:29 PM
If it had been officer Harold Macon instead of officer Hattie Macon would the investigation be progressing any differently? :rolleyes:

Sodbuster
October 20, 2004, 09:24 PM
Any LEO, male or female, who can't subdue a 75-year old lady without a Taser, needs to find another line of work.

Hawkmoon
October 20, 2004, 10:23 PM
Any LEO, male or female, who can't subdue a 75-year old lady without a Taser, needs to find another line of work.
Okay, but just how would you propose that the LEO should have subdued the 75-year old nutcase?

How many of you youngsters have actually been forced to deal with elderly, argumentative, angry, illogical, uncooperative elderly people? They can be a royal PITA. The problem is, they're physically frail but they don't mind getting feisty and throwing their weight around (what little of it some of them have). We weren't ther. The old gal might have been completely off her nut -- after all, she had already been asked to leave by the management and refused, which is why the police were called. Then she tried to ignore the cop and when that failed she attacked her. Have you considered that the officer just might have felt that neutralizing the old bag might have been the best way to avoid breaking some 75-year old bones?

Did't think so.

gunsmith
October 20, 2004, 10:27 PM
I would have won but she hit me with her walker!:evil: :neener:

Coronach
October 20, 2004, 10:35 PM
FWIW:

My opinion tends to lean the way of conventional wisdom on this one (read: I'm really curious to hear the justification), but, lets consider one thing:

Tasers are really really painful, but they do no permanent damage (except what you might get from falling to the ground). Wrestling with a 75 year old person is almost certain to cause more injury than a simple fall would- sometimes significantly more. Got a largish older person with bad osteoperosis who needs to be taken into custody and insists on fighting you? Tasering can indeed be a better option than wrestling with grandma and breaking her bones.

Any way you cut it, calls like this are lose-lose situations if you cannot resolve them verbally. If you don't talk them down, you did one of the following:

1. Wrestled an old lady.
2. Beat up an old lady.
3. Maced an old lady.
4. Tasered an old lady.

:rolleyes:

Was it a good call? Who knows. The aformentioned reasoning (which assumes a lot) is the only justification that springs immediately to mind.

Mike

R.H. Lee
October 20, 2004, 10:48 PM
Okay, but just how would you propose that the LEO should have subdued the 75-year old nutcase?
Ya know, Hawkmoon, if you live to be 75, just hope you don't experience any confusion, or forgetfullness, or grief. I'm sure you don't want to be considered a nutcase. :rolleyes: Any cop who doesn't have the interpersonal societal skills to deal with an uncooperative, possibly confused, elderly person without resorting to physical force desperately needs to find another line of work. I hope she sues the jurisdiction, and wins, bigtime.

Sodbuster
October 20, 2004, 11:23 PM
nutcase
Who? The 75-year old or the LEO? Gimme a break. This is over the top!

tcsd1236
October 20, 2004, 11:57 PM
And many of you are ignoring the fact that a Taser is just above verbal command sin the use of force. Grabbing her would have been a HIGHER use of force in most agencies.

Even 70+ year old people can be combative.

Coronach
October 21, 2004, 12:14 AM
I saw a possibly similar run with an 80 year old with dementia that resulted in a cop with a missing tooth and an 80 year old with a broken hip. Would a taser have been in order on that run? You darn betcha...because allowing him to continue assaulting everyone in sight was not an option.

Was it in order here? I have no idea. I'm curious to see.

But, I like the smug assurances of everyone that (presumably) any use of force was "over the top."

Query: if thats the case, why were the police summoned in the first place? Or were they just rolling around looking for an old lady to taser?

:rolleyes:

Mike

Ezekiel
October 21, 2004, 12:39 AM
If the officer's training called for the tazer, blame the hierarchy as the officer/serf is blameless. If he was outside procedure, it's "on him". In any event, I can think of a lot worse things then being momentarily subdued by police for general noncompliance.

Shield529
October 21, 2004, 01:15 AM
To Ezekiel
The officer is never blameless, right or wrong. I make choises everyday. I would have to make the dicition to use or not to use a Taser on a 75 year old woman. Not a policy book, ME its my choise.
I only have to have this job for 26 years till I retire, If I get fired for not Tasering an old lady, I can say with 100% certainty that another Dept. will hire me tomorrow.
But I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday for the rest of my life and in my beliefs I will have to account for my acts after I depart. I cannot under any circumstances justify useing a Taser on a 75 year old woman.

To all those who have tried to justify this act by saying "what would you do" or "what other option was there"?
With the elderly I have discovered Talking does alot of good. Its takes a little longer then shocking someone who probley has a pacemaker and uses a little intellect but try it sometime and you and the person who was upset might both feel a little better.

rock jock
October 21, 2004, 01:24 AM
As I wrote on GlockTalk, my own mother is 75 and is in the best shape of any 75 yo woman I have even met. My 14 yo nephew could easily subdue her. I hate to say it, and will probably get flamed for it, but I think the fact that the officer in this case is a woman explains a lot.

F4GIB
October 21, 2004, 01:35 AM
zrex posted As a matter of fact, I just found Officer Hattie Macon's DD214 online.

How did you do that?

Coronach
October 21, 2004, 01:51 AM
To Ezekiel
The officer is never blameless, right or wrong. I make choises everyday. I would have to make the dicition to use or not to use a Taser on a 75 year old woman. Not a policy book, ME its my choise.
I only have to have this job for 26 years till I retire, If I get fired for not Tasering an old lady, I can say with 100% certainty that another Dept. will hire me tomorrow.
But I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday for the rest of my life and in my beliefs I will have to account for my acts after I depart. I cannot under any circumstances justify useing a Taser on a 75 year old woman.

To all those who have tried to justify this act by saying "what would you do" or "what other option was there"?
With the elderly I have discovered Talking does alot of good. Its takes a little longer then shocking someone who probley has a pacemaker and uses a little intellect but try it sometime and you and the person who was upset might both feel a little better.I agree with this pretty much 100%.

Well, okay. The pacemaker bit is not relevent. The Taser will not harm a pacemaker (now...the sheer stress of being juiced sure won't help an aged heart...but neither will a wrestling match).

As always, and ESPECIALLY with someone who is aged and probably not very much of a threat, verbal de-escalation and calming techniques are pretty much always the preferred course of action. But if you end up being forced to go hands-on...which is likely to hurt someone with obvious bone fragility less- a fall to the floor, or a wrestling match and subsequent forcible grounding? Probably the simple fall- which is what a Taser would cause.

The question comes down to the specifics, as always. Can I think of scenarios where it would be better to taser someone than wrestle with them, even a 75 year old lady? Yes, I certainly can. Can I also envision scenarios where tasering the old lady would be completely inappropriate? Yes, I sure can.

Which was this? Dunno. It was either a tough decision made well, or a complete FUBAR. I just cannot imagine any cop wanting to Taser an elderly person unless the other options were exhausted first.

Mike

Zrex
October 21, 2004, 07:44 AM
F4GIB: PM Sent

RevDisk
October 21, 2004, 07:47 AM
How did you do that?

Either she was unlucky, and someone put it on the internet without her knowledge. Google could find it easy enough. Officer's name plus "DD214" would do it.

Or she was not intelligent, and filed it at some county courthouse. Some folks used to tell vets getting out of the service to file their DD214 at the courthouse for various benefit reasons. Of course, said files were then massively abused for identity theft reasons. (All you future vets, don't do this.)


That's just the free services. You can also pay someone minimal amounts to retrieve massive amounts of data on a person. Competition on the internet has driven down the costs so that anyone can find plenty of information on anyone else. Previously just the realm of hardcore stalkers. ;)

MP5
October 21, 2004, 08:31 AM
Tasers are really really painful, but they do no permanent damage (except what you might get from falling to the ground).

They can be deadly under some circumstances, and there have been a number of cases of cops (inadvertently) killing with them. Just do a Google search for "taser death."

tcsd1236
October 21, 2004, 08:54 AM
They can be deadly under some circumstances, and there have been a number of cases of cops (inadvertently) killing with them. Just do a Google search for "taser death."
Thats an unproven claim by the NAACP. Overall, they are reasonably safe. Nothing is totally risk free.

sendec
October 21, 2004, 09:18 AM
I've said it before - I'd rather be Tased than beaten. Tasers are safer than physical countermeasures.

Most posters here seem to have a misconception that the Taser equals a high degree of force. It and OC are about as low as it gets, just above presence and verbalization.

Good " shoot" or bad? I dunno, I was'nt there nor do I have access to the investigative report. It could be either, but I've wrestled around with enough seniors to know that there are times when it would have been perfectly appropriate.

The home staff no doubt has the training and experience to handle older non-compliant folks. The fact that they had to call The Woman tells me that this was'nt run of the mill.

nero45acp
October 21, 2004, 09:48 AM
Quote:

" The home staff no doubt has the training and experience to handle older non-complient folks. The fact that they had to call The Women tells me that this was'nt run of the mill."



It could very well be that the staff felt they would be opening themselves to an assault charge if they laid hands on the elderly women, especially if she was a visitor.

I'm an RN, and I've worked in the psychiatric field for about 14 years and I've had to deal with many elderly (though spry) dementia patients. In all that time I've never come across a situation where I would feel that it was necessary or justified to taser them. Nor have I had to injure them to restrain them, and yes there have been times where I had to do this unassisted and the elderly patient was considerably taller than myself (I'm 5'9"). A few quick steps, and a behind the back bear-hug (pinning their arms at their sides) will usually work until more assistance is available.


nero

Coronach
October 21, 2004, 10:14 AM
It could very well be that the staff felt they would be opening themselves to an assault charge if they laid hands on the elderly women, especially if she was a visitor.That's almost certainly true.

However, the mere fact that they felt the need to call the cops on a 75 year old woman says something. While possible, I find it unlikely that she was just peaceably sitting in an easy chair in their lobby. As always, there's more to the story.

BTW, each use of force continuum is different, but mine goes something like this:

Presence
Verbal Commands
Empty hands techniques (non-strikes)
Mace
Taser
Hard empty hands techniques (strikes)
Baton
Deadly force

So, if the officer was warranted in striking Grandma to get control of her, she was warranted in tasering her, under my UOFC. Mace and Taser are not at the same level, but they're close and the situation will determine which is warranted.

As I said before, every officer prays that situations like this one are resolved verbally. Otherwise, you just had a use of force on a 75 year old woman...and no one looks good in that situation. :uhoh:

Again- Good? Bad? I dunno. Off the cuff it sure looks awful, but I'll wait to see what the other side has to say. The questions become: was it necessary to press the issue (probably yes), and were all reasonable non-force options exhausted prior to getting into a physical confrontation (possibly no)?

Mike

Zrex
October 21, 2004, 10:18 AM
The officer was trained to use a taser. Was she trained to deal with the elderly? No offense to the Peace Officers out there, but some LEO's seem to think they walk on water because they are wearing a badge and feel the need to assert their "authority" too forcefully.

Cop is talking to old woman, old woman, being old, gets distracted, thinks she sees someone and wanders towards them, cop reaches out and grabs an arm. Old woman jerks her arm away from the cop. Cop thinks, "She is fighting my authority!", pulls out her taser, and zaps the old woman in the back.

Ezekiel
October 21, 2004, 10:34 AM
Shield:

The officer is never blameless, right or wrong.

Already participating in "sardonic mode" with an us [cops] against them [brass and/or public] mentality? Is this most cops, just you, or have I misunderstood your reply?

I only have to have this job for 26 years till I retire.

But who's counting, right? This statement gives me chills...

I cannot under any circumstances justify useing a Taser on a 75 year old woman.

Really? Not under any circumstances? Do you patrol Mayberry RFD?

psyopspec
October 21, 2004, 10:54 AM
Way to go "Officer" Macon, tip o' the hat to you.

sendec
October 21, 2004, 11:02 AM
I actually consider tasing someone a lower level of force than OC because the effects wear off much quicker, there is less risk of collateral damage and there have more deaths occuring in which OC may have been a factor.

In the state I live in there is about an hours training in issues related to the elderly. Not a lot, but better than nothing.

Uh, Nero, cops do not do behind the back bearhugs. It'll get you either a backwards head butt or crushed cajones. Glad they work for you, but no thanks.:uhoh:

MP5
October 21, 2004, 11:03 AM
Thats an unproven claim by the NAACP.

There have been more than a few cases where Tasers have killed, though suspect health, possible drug use, and other mitigating circumstances can come into play. There apparently have been at least 44 deaths at police hands with a Taser involved as at least a contributory factor, according to this article:

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/articles/85557/

Plus:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml puts the total at 70 deaths

http://www.smartmoney.com/bn/ON/index.cfm?story=ON-20041011-000408-1246&nav=ibs

etc.

sendec
October 21, 2004, 11:14 AM
It's a little early to damn the Taser. You have to plot those suspected deaths against total usage and then compare it to other tools like OC. A number of those incidents also contain wild cards like drug usage and pre-existing medical conditions. While Taser use may correlate with some incustody deaths there needs to be more research done before it can be said that it alone caused those deaths and whether those deaths are statistically significant.

flatrock
October 21, 2004, 11:24 AM
There is exactly one case where a coroner or medical examiner has determined a TASER to be at fault.

It's the last link you posted, and that determination is 10 days old, and will likely be contested.

Even in that case, the person who died was on drugs, and was fighting with the police.

Shield529
October 21, 2004, 08:09 PM
to Ezekiel.

The officer is never blameless, right or wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Already participating in "sardonic mode" with an us [cops] against them [brass and/or public] mentality? Is this most cops, just you, or have I misunderstood your reply?

My meaning was that you make your own dicitions and that if you make the right one or wrong one, that responsiblity lies only with you not a supervisor or policy book.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only have to have this job for 26 years till I retire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But who's counting, right? This statement gives me chills...

I have no idea why this would give you chills.. It was meant only to emphsize that my consince is forever my job is not. If doing the right thing means I lose that job so be it.
Does doing the right thing at personal cost give you chills?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cannot under any circumstances justify useing a Taser on a 75 year old woman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Really? Not under any circumstances? Do you patrol Mayberry RFD?

Right to the insults nice. No by the way its a Metropolitan area.

Sodbuster
October 22, 2004, 12:32 AM
Pardon my smugness, but my original post stands, Mike.

13A
October 22, 2004, 12:49 AM
A soldier serving in Iraq posted on another forum that tasering an Iraqi prisoner is considered torture and is forbidden.

If it is true, why is it acceptable to taser 75 year old ladies in America?

sendec
October 22, 2004, 08:47 AM
Because this is neither Iraq nor the military.


Y'all are buying into the mystique of the Taser, that it is some form of paralyzing death ray. In training and / or the street I have been joint-locked, pressure-pointed, hit, kicked, maced, OC'ed and hit with a stun gun. I am telling you that the taser is less "harmful" than any of the last 5. You fall down, hurt for a couple seconds then stand up and shake it off. Far less hazardous than active countermeasures.

I still dont know wether this was a good "shoot", but I'd rather read an article like this than hear of an officer who broke the lady's brittle arm with an escort hold, or knocked her down and broke her hip.

Sodbuster
October 22, 2004, 09:04 AM
sendec, I agree with your last statement. But I would rather have read how the officer talked to the woman. Is there a deadline nowdays that prohibits LE from spending 10, 15, 30 minutes talking to someone? For the sake of argument, let's say the lady took a sing at the officer. She missed. My reaction? So what. Let's talk to her and get her calmed down. I can only wonder how some folks here would have faired before the advent of the Taser, or Mace as far as that goes. Gosh, left to their own devices and needing to communicate with a 75-year old. I think it's been done before.

I have an honest difference of opinion with some here. Don't miscontrue that as bashing. I'm as pro-LE as the next guy, and I appreciate the thanklessness of the job. My father is a retired sheriff and police chief. Though not the same job description as on the civilian side, I was a Marine MP and worked as a dispatcher, jailor and booking officer at a couple LE agencies in my younger says. I'm on your side. I just think this particular situation could have been handled differently. Sorry about the smugness, Mike. :o

scbair
October 22, 2004, 09:37 AM
Okay, I'll admit two things:
1) I was a LEO, but it was a LOOONG time ag;
2) I'm not really conversant with the latest electronic wizardry available to LEOs as "less-lethal" alternatives.

Addressing the second issue, when I heard "taser" on the news, I immediately thought of the device that launches two darts, attached to the laucher/power pack by wires, that penetrate the skin or clothing of the target. The 75-year old woman's description ("I saw her draw a gun from her belt. . .") also sounded like this device. Reading the accounts quoted in this thread makes it sound more like a "stun gun" that uses two metal contacts pressed against the target.

The second point: I dealt with youths, the elderly, druggies, drunks and genuine "hardcase" violent offenders. I never had to shoot anyone, but I did make use of CS (it was before OC became available), nightsticks (remember the old Monadnock PR-24?), a Kel Light (the original "metal police flashlight), and a couple of Bucheimer blackjacks & saps, in addition to empty hand restraint and control techniques.

I saw the 75-year old on TV; she appears fairly typical; not unusually large, moves and acts age-appropriately.

I am always reluctant to make a judgment without fairly hearing all facts, and am willing to have the officer and chief explain to me WHY an active duty LEO would feel the need to use ANY weapon on a 75-year old woman, EVEN if she "took a swing" at the LEO.

That said, I'm afraid the explanation would have to be great!! If I had ever done so, I'd have worried more about the reactions of my fellow officers than those of my superiors! I'd have been ridiculed and ostracized, and (I think) legitimately so. If the LEO can't handle this individual without using that level of force, I shudder to think how she'll respond to an agitated 12 year old male juvenile. :scrutiny:

My main worry would have been that the elderly woman would injure herself, either by hitting me and breaking her hand or losing her balance and falling. As I stated, I'm willing to hear why the officer used electric shock instead of simply controlling and restraining the "offender" (and I'm even reasonably certain, form info from the various sources- the woman, the police and the nursing facility staff- that the woman did more to provoke the incident than she's admitting), but any such explanation would probably cast grave doubt on this LEO's competency to execute her duties.

I just can't even visualize any realistic justification . . .

sendec
October 22, 2004, 10:39 AM
Sodbuster

Talking to people isnt newsworthy, unless they are perched on a ledge or holding a hostage. Verbalization is on the typical force contimuum and even then it is normally broken into levels, from convertation to requests to direction to command. If this officer walked in and immediately tased the woman without any verbalization I would hold that as wrong. As to deadlines there has to be a practical limitation as to how long these things drag on, and even prolonging them is no garantee of a successful ending - look at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Also note that most officers work in smaller agencies without assistance or specialized resources. If there are only 2 cops working in the county and calls are backing up that are more serious, occasionally you gotta do what you gotta do.

Tasing a 75 year old lady is news, persuading her to leave is not.

FWIW I was trained as a crisis negotiator and have done graduate work in psychology and sociology, focusing on interpersonal communication and how it relates to deception. I have "talked" to a number of people in similar situations and some worse, and fortunately it worked more often than not. But one of the major errors negotiators make is to start believing that anyone can be negotiated thru any problem. Unfortunately that is'nt the way it works and occassionally people need to be physically subdude. Whether or not this was one of those situations remains to be seen.

FPrice
October 22, 2004, 10:59 AM
"A soldier serving in Iraq posted on another forum that tasering an Iraqi prisoner is considered torture and is forbidden.

If it is true, why is it acceptable to taser 75 year old ladies in America?"

Probably because in the former instance (assuming the prisoner is being compliant) that doing anything to cause pain is unnecessary while in the latter the subject is exhibiting behavior which requires intervention.

The problem here is that an out-of-control 75 year old lady is still a 75 year old lady and as such is automatically given a pass by those who have never had to deal with an out-of-control elderly person. Shall we let her continue in such a fashion until she causes a problem with the other patients or until she does something to injure herself, or maybe someone else?

Talk to a staffer from a Nursing home or similar institution where they have to deal with the elderly on a regular basis. Not every 75 year old is just like Aunt Bea from Mayberry NC. Full of sweetness, wisdom, and freshly baked cookies for Opie, Andy, and Barney. An awful lot are mean, surly, or have regressed to childhood stages of mind and behavior.

There are just too many variables and too little information in this story to know just what went on and exactly what everyone faced. Therefore in the absence of enough information to make an informed comment, everyone has to default to their previously established level of training/opinion on LE.

1. All cops are good and do no wrong.

2. Cops have a very difficult job, have to deal with a wide variety of situations, and sometimes make good judgements and sometimes make bad judgements because they are human.

3. All cops are bad and do no good.

Take your pick. And for most of you just be glad that YOU don't have to prove what you would do in such a situation.

Coronach
October 22, 2004, 12:05 PM
No problem, Sodbuster.

I agree that I really want to know what happened prior to the use of the Taser. As in every instance, that is what will decide if it was a good use of it or not. This instance is complicated by the fact that the old lady was, well, an old lady. Probably less of a physical threat, but also more difficult to take into custody without causing injury. I freely admit that this can go either way. My knee-jerk reaction is the same as everyone's here ("oh, God. They juiced grandma!"), but I also know that there are times when its use would be quite appropriate, possibly life-saving, in just such a scenario.

It all boils down to the bane of internet discussions on Use of Force: the details make the difference, and we don't know the details.

As to the idea that "if the cop can't resolve this situation without using the Taser, how will he/she handle X" ... this assumes that any person's verbal skills can create the desired outcome if the right thing is done or said. Sadly, this is not the case. It takes two to communicate, it takes two to reach a peaceful, acceptable, legal outcome. If one half does not want to cooperate, the whole endevour fails. If it does, you're back to square one: do I wrestle with the fragile old lady, or do I use mace/taser/whatever?

I'm sure every cop in the nation wishes he could just walk up to someone who is going to fight, say the right thing, and they become polite, compliant and peaceful. It doesn't work that way, alas.

There are just too many variables and too little information in this story to know just what went on and exactly what everyone faced. Therefore in the absence of enough information to make an informed comment, everyone has to default to their previously established level of training/opinion on LE.

1. All cops are good and do no wrong.

2. Cops have a very difficult job, have to deal with a wide variety of situations, and sometimes make good judgements and sometimes make bad judgements because they are human.

3. All cops are bad and do no good.

Take your pick. And for most of you just be glad that YOU don't have to prove what you would do in such a situation.This is my usual argument, so I tend to agree with it. ;) However, to nitpick one item: Most of the 'pro-cop' posters are saying "hey, this could be good or bad" whereas many of the 'anti-cop' posters are saying that it was bad regardless of the facts.

I'll leave it to the gentle reader to decide who is being more reasonable. ;)

Mike

Art Eatman
October 22, 2004, 01:39 PM
I dunno. I've seen some darned healthy and darned big 75-year-old women. They may not have the endurance for a protracted set-to, but they can darned sure hurt you if they're mad. A short-term adrenalin rush can create a bunch of misery.

You get some big ol' Queen Mary wandering around and feeling she's been "done wrong to" and you can't tell what's gonna go through her mind next. You don't know what she'll pull out of her purse, or if she'll pull a darning needle out of her hairdo.

Not enough info in these articles--as usual--to make any definitive judgement. Right now, it's just another, "She said/she said..." deal.

Art

Daniel T
October 22, 2004, 03:30 PM
scbair:

Reading the accounts quoted in this thread makes it sound more like a "stun gun" that uses two metal contacts pressed against the target.

If I remember correctly, a Taser can be used against someone without having to launch the darts. The compressed air pack that launches the darts can be removed, and then the probes be be pushed against the target's skin and the trigger pulled. At this point, it functions almost just like a "stun gun".

...

Shield529, I hope you meant "I cannot under any circumstances justify using a Taser on an unarmed 75 year old woman." I think a Taser would be the perfect response to an elderly suspect armed with a club or knife. Otherwise, you may be exposing yourself to more danger than is neccesary.

obxned
April 8, 2007, 02:06 PM
1. The lady was visiting a friend.

2. The person who complained about the lady was NOT a resident.

3. Why was it impossible to tell her if her friend was alive or dead?

If indeed the lady needed to be removed from the property, simply answering her questions and politely explaining the legal basis for her being required to leave would have solved the problem. However, I don't see any mention of her friend, a legal resident of the property, asking her to leave!

Just because she is 75 does NOT negate her rights!

ebd10
April 8, 2007, 02:31 PM
Regardless if you feel that tasering a 75 y/o woman was proper or not, the media continues to fan the flames of division between civilians and LE. I predict that before too much longer, something REALLY ugly is going to happen. Something that has resounding and national repercussions.

ilbob
April 8, 2007, 02:37 PM
Regardless if you feel that tasering a 75 y/o woman was proper or not, the media continues to fan the flames of division between civilians and LE. I predict that before too much longer, something REALLY ugly is going to happen. Something that has resounding and national repercussions.

Something ugly has already happened. The "us and them" division exists, and it is not up to individual citizens to try and deal with it. Citizens need to stand up and demand that the politicians they elect to protect them from these rogues exert their authority and actually deal with it in a firm way. A good way to start is by publicly firing the chief executive of LE agencies that don't toe the line, and making it very clear the reason the chief was fired was because he chose to protect a few rogue officers over the public.

Lucky
April 8, 2007, 04:35 PM
No kidding! Did he not read about the people in NOLA that were shot at by the police who blockaded a bridge out of town, point blank huddling on the ground?


Citizens need to stand up and demand that the politicians they elect to protect them from these rogues exert their authority and actually deal with it in a firm way.

I think the root cause is not the police. Not even the politicians occupying top executive positions. It's that the LEGISLATIVE has too much power, which leads to the executive having too much power, and the judicial both seeks to increase its own power while it struggles to cope with the massive amount of work foisted upon it by the zealous executives, at the bidding of the legislators.

ebd10
April 8, 2007, 04:45 PM
No kidding! Did he not read about the people in NOLA that were shot at by the police who blockaded a bridge out of town, point blank huddling on the ground?

I read about it. The difference was that that was an extenuating circumstance. The cops that did the shooting and the victims were all in a high stress, hair-trigger environment with little or no oversight. I'm talking about people becoming angry enough to start targeting cops just because they have a badge and a uniform. Maybe along the lines of a serial killer scenario, maybe it will just be angry friends and relatives that ambush cops and then, of course, no one will have seen or heard anything. Face it, all of this finger pointing and assignation of blame is just another level of frustration. To be perfectly blunt about it, a cop's authority is illusory. They can assert their authority as long as the civilian population respects it. Look at what happened during the LA riots; cops attempting to subdue rioters found themselves outnumbered and unwelcome. They, in turn, did the only rational thing; they got the heck out of town.

It's coming, and soon. As long as we have yellow journalists highlighting these types of incidents, the anger will build. The only question is where?

Lucky
April 8, 2007, 04:54 PM
Won't happen, shouldn't happen, would be wrong in many many ways.

The executive simply does what the Legislative tells it. Well, to be honest now days the police chiefs are very involved in formulating legislation too, and that's wrong and they shouldn't do it.

Furthermore, even in the worst case scenario where a large group of people feel extremely victimized by the executive, the civilized response is to cower yet lower, and let the tallest nails get hammered.

But it's irrelevant, the Executive is not the problem (except for politically active chiefs), it's the legislative (and judicial activism).

sterling180
April 8, 2007, 04:59 PM
What a bloody idiot.A shock from the taser,could have killed that lady,because of her age and because she could have had a weak heart,(which doesn't help,at all.).I don't see how this level of force,was necessary at all,for a old woman.All the cop had to do,was talk to her politely and maybe,she would have gotten a positive response,out of her.Although this can wear down alot of peoples patience,because stubborn elders,arn't exactly the easiest people-to talk to.Silly b****,she is not fit to wear,that uniform-at all.She needs to be retrained in 'common sense' at the police academy.

Haven't cops been trained in restraint techniques,that are suitable for these types of incidents,if they should get shoved,by vunrable people?

kola
April 8, 2007, 07:31 PM
quote:
I predict that before too much longer, something REALLY ugly is going to happen. Something that has resounding and national repercussions.
__________________


Pay attention, it is already happening.
America is becoming a police state. That is why people are pissed.

kola

doubleg
April 8, 2007, 07:35 PM
Why does this story remind me of that "Grandma got run over by a reindeer" song.

halfacop
April 8, 2007, 07:39 PM
Well - as usual I see plenty of Monday Quarterbacking going on here. :scrutiny:

I am sure the majority here complaining of the officers actions have actually been police officers at one time or another - right? :rolleyes:

rbernie
April 8, 2007, 07:49 PM
Coulda been a cop with a low threshold for 'disrespect of cop', or it coulda been that the officer truely believed that she needed to get control of Grandma.

No way to tell which is the case from what's been said, either in the story or in this thread.

I am sure the majority here complaining of the officers actions have actually been police officers at one time or another - right?I don't need to be or have been a cop to think critically, despite any insinuations to the contrary.

kola
April 8, 2007, 08:17 PM
it is pretty easy...a no-brainer:



oil ......vinegar

325 lb lineman.... 128 lb high school kid

gasoline....matches

bb gun....cannon

ta ser..... lil ol lady

ta s er ...6 yr old

Derby FALs
April 8, 2007, 08:23 PM
She pled guilty to misdemeanors and paid $790 fine.
http://www.policeone.com/less-lethal/articles/120887/

ptmmatssc
April 8, 2007, 08:42 PM
The officer who shocked Kimbrell, Hattie Jean Macon, testified Thursday that Kimbrell twice pulled away from her grasp, then tried to walk into a dining area. "I Tasered her at that point," Macon said.

Macon said she wanted to protect other staff and residents. Kimbrell was "loud, rude and ugly to myself and the staff," Macon said.

Couldn't hold on to a squirelly old lady, lol ? And if loud , rude , and ugly gets you tazered nowadays , well , we may have to rethink what training these people get .

kola
April 8, 2007, 08:59 PM
ptm,

I agree. We are seeing these types of scenarios all over the USA.
Abuse of T a s ers.

I STILL belive Tas ers can be a great asset to LEO's but they should be used ONLY in the: PROPER SITUATION.

That ain't happening. It is nothing more than a damn cattle prod to unjustly intimidate people who are CLEARLY non-threatening.

Kola

The Lone Haranguer
April 8, 2007, 09:21 PM
Was any physical force needed at all? If yes, the taser sounds better than any of the alternatives. A "come-along" or "choke hold?" Mace or pepper spray? A thump on the noggin with a nightstick? Would those have looked any better?

Lupinus
April 8, 2007, 09:24 PM
Was it worth shooting her? Nope, it therefor wasn't worth tazering her. Sorry but short of her being armed with a deadly weapon a 75 year old anything isn't justified in shooting with a tazer.

halfacop
April 8, 2007, 10:16 PM
Was it worth shooting her? Nope, it therefor wasn't worth tazering her.

What the hell!

So now if we think that we may need to use deadly force on someone we should be using the taser instead?

The taser falls in the use of force continum under mace for cripe sake!

"Hey he's shooting at us - quick get the taser out"!

I for one would much rather have seen her taser the old lady than to face plant her into the carpet.

Robert Hairless
April 9, 2007, 12:57 AM
I for one would much rather have seen her taser the old lady than to face plant her into the carpet.

I wouldn't. Those 75-year-old old ladies hanging around nursing homes can turn on you in a minute. Don't be fooled by their helpless act. They're potentially very dangerous people. She might have had a concealed knitting needle or a handkerchief soaked in chloroform. They like to cry and act confused but then they strike, overpower the authorities, and take their weapons. Never trust one of those old people. Many of them are on drugs and we pay for those drugs with our taxes. We need to stop these knee jerk reactions in support of little old ladies. Think about the poor lady police officer who braved danger to subdue this one.

Coronach
April 9, 2007, 01:31 AM
Which is more likley to break 75 year old bones?

A. Falling over while under the effects of a Taser, with nothing else atop you.

B. Being tackled and slammed to the ground by a grown man.

Both pose risks. But one of them is more likely to result in serious injury. Hmm. Hmm. I'm sure the answer will come to me eventually. I mean, one of my fellow officers just cracked a guy's ribs by tackling him, and this was a young guy, too...and I have yet to see, first hand, anyone getting a broken bone from a Taser, though I know it can happen...hmmm....I'll figure this out sooner or later... :rolleyes:

Now, this presupposes that a wrestling match is the only other option, an I don't know that it was. However, sometimes that is the case. Deescalation doesn't always work. Mace can cause respiratory problems and elevated heart rate, same as a Taser. What's left? The Pig Pile, pretty much. Lose lose.

Mike

Coronach
April 9, 2007, 01:41 AM
ROCK HILL, S.C.- A jury found a 76-year-old woman guilty Thursday of trespassing and resisting police in an incident that ended with an officer zapping her with a stun gun.


Margaret Kimbrell chose to pay a $790 fine instead of serving 60 days in jail, The (Rock Hill) Herald reported for Friday's editions. Her attorney said she plans to appeal.

Kimbrell's case received national attention after she was shot with the 50,000-volt Taser in October 2004 while trying to visit a resident at an assisted-living home.

Kimbrell had been banned from visiting the resident by his guardian and police were called after staffers could not get her to leave.

The officer who shocked Kimbrell, Hattie Jean Macon, testified Thursday that Kimbrell twice pulled away from her grasp, then tried to walk into a dining area. "I Tasered her at that point," Macon said.

Macon said she wanted to protect other staff and residents. Kimbrell was "loud, rude and ugly to myself and the staff," Macon said.Still not many details about the Tasering, though. I'd like to read the details of the "pulling away". That would lend to or detract from the credibility of the idea that the options were tackling or Tasering. In order to get that, we'll need to wait for the inevitable civil suit for excessive force.

Mike

halfacop
April 9, 2007, 01:42 AM
Which is more likley to break 75 year old bones?

A. Falling over while under the effects of a Taser, with nothing else atop you.

B. Being tackled and slammed to the ground by a grown man.

Both pose risks. But one of them is more likely to result in serious injury. Hmm. Hmm. I'm sure the answer will come to me eventually. I mean, one of my fellow officers just cracked a guy's ribs by tackling him, and this was a young guy, too...and I have yet to see, first hand, anyone getting a broken bone from a Taser, though I know it can happen...hmmm....I'll figure this out sooner or later...

Now, this presupposes that a wrestling match is the only other option, an I don't know that it was. However, sometimes that is the case. Deescalation doesn't always work. Mace can cause respiratory problems and elevated heart rate, same as a Taser. What's left? The Pig Pile, pretty much. Lose lose.

Mike

Nice to see some common sense around here. What a breath of fresh air!

50 Freak
April 9, 2007, 02:33 AM
I have to ask, before the advent of the tazers, how did LE's get by????

Seems like the tazers are used so willy nilly by LE's now adays. I think the use of a tazer should be seen almost as harshly as the use of a firearm.

I think if an LE uses a tazer on duty, he has to explain his actions before a civilian review board. The tazer is a good tool, but it has been used freely with no consequences by the LE community.

Not good....fosters the "us versus them" mentality.

I have to tell you, honestly if I saw an LE use a tazer against my 80 year old grandmother, I'd consider it a life threating action and probably use my CCW to stop him. I would rather face a jury of 12 with a lawyer by myside than to look in the mirror every morning and realize that I failed to protect my grandmother by letting some SOB tazer her.

nobody_special
April 9, 2007, 04:50 AM
Wow, just... wow. Aside from a 2 1/2 year old thread being dredged up for no obvious reason, some of the comments here are indefensible.

Regardless if you feel that tasering a 75 y/o woman was proper or not, the media continues to fan the flames of division between civilians and LE. I predict that before too much longer, something REALLY ugly is going to happen. Something that has resounding and national repercussions.


Don't blame the media for this. The fact is, there is a division between the populace and LE. (And, FYI, LEOs are civilians.) I seem to read a story like this every few days... LEOs use excessive force (such as in this case), beat people up (in Chicago bars or elsewhere), abuse their authority (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=267373), or obtain warrants with falsified evidence, storm the wrong house, and shoot an innocent person... and usually they receive nothing more than "administrative punishment."

A non-LEO who did these things would do time. There is a double standard, and it isn't right.

Did he not read about the people in NOLA that were shot at by the police who blockaded a bridge out of town, point blank huddling on the ground?

I read about it. The difference was that that was an extenuating circumstance. The cops that did the shooting and the victims were all in a high stress, hair-trigger environment with little or no oversight. I'm talking about people becoming angry enough to start targeting cops just because they have a badge and a uniform.

I don't give a &@%* if it was a high-stress environment... it's still murder, or an attempt. If they can't act in an upright way without supervision, they shouldn't be on the job. It doesn't matter how angry the people were; if they really were "huddling on the ground" and being shot at, it's attempted murder.

Period.


I am sure the majority here complaining of the officers actions have actually been police officers at one time or another - right?


Experience as a LEO is not a prerequisite for valid criticism thereof.

LEOs are government employees, and as such (supposedly) ultimately answerable to the people.


Which is more likley to break 75 year old bones?
A. Falling over while under the effects of a Taser, with nothing else atop you.
B. Being tackled and slammed to the ground by a grown man.
Both pose risks. [...]
Now, this presupposes that a wrestling match is the only other option, an I don't know that it was.

For many elderly, falling on a hard surface is likely to cause serious, potentially debilitating or even life-threatening injury. I'm certain that there were alternatives, and it seems very likely that the officer in this case was too quick to "pull the trigger."

ebd10
April 9, 2007, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebd10
I read about it. The difference was that that was an extenuating circumstance. The cops that did the shooting and the victims were all in a high stress, hair-trigger environment with little or no oversight. I'm talking about people becoming angry enough to start targeting cops just because they have a badge and a uniform.

I don't give a &@%* if it was a high-stress environment... it's still murder, or an attempt. If they can't act in an upright way without supervision, they shouldn't be on the job. It doesn't matter how angry the people were; if they really were "huddling on the ground" and being shot at, it's attempted murder.

Period.


I'm not defending the act, I'm simply pointing out that LEOs are people, and people act irrationally in high stress environments. I agree that these cops should have been tried for murder, but they weren't. As for the media, they direct public opinion by what they report, and what they don't. How often do we hear anymore about cops saving people in the nick of time? Or thwarting crime? I'm sure it must happen, but it's easier to report bad news. Reporters are notoriously biased and lazy in researching stories about gun control, why should we expect them to be any different about cops?


(And, FYI, LEOs are civilians.)

If they want to wear uniforms and act like soldiers, I'm going to treat them like soldiers. It's up to them whether or not I treat them like enemy soldiers.

sansone
April 9, 2007, 09:15 AM
post number 10 hit the nail on the head. my dad was a cop all his life. in the distant past cops were required to be of a minimum height, weight, and physical strength so suspects could be "contained" without the use of excessive force. dad told me when women demanded the right to be LE all the physical requirements had to be dropped or women would not pass the physical portion of their training. because of this female officers are much more likely to draw a weapon in situations where a weapon is not needed

ceetee
April 9, 2007, 09:32 AM
While I think that Tasers are fantastic tools to have, I also think that the police do tend to reach for that particular tool a lot more often that is warranted. I think that Tasers are mis-used just as often as they're used properly. That said, I have to defer to the judgement of Mrs. Ceetee on this one (who, having spent a few years as a medical assistant in a nursing home before embarking on her illustrious career as a law enforcer, is emminently qualified to comment)...

1. "A lot of elderly people have skin that's so thin that just lifting them up by the wrist can peel it back like taking off a sock. I've seen it happen more than once."

2. "Many elderly people have bones that are so brittle that you can break their arm like a twig, withoug even trying."

3. "If the old lady had already been talked to, and was refusing to obey orders to leave, and tried to swing on me, I woulda Tasered her too..."

71Commander
April 9, 2007, 09:35 AM
zrex posted
Quote:
As a matter of fact, I just found Officer Hattie Macon's DD214 online.
How did you do that?

I'm curious to know how you did that as well.

CK
April 9, 2007, 09:54 AM
I think the quality of the majority of the people who would want to become a Law Enforcement Officer has been on the steady decline over the years(Not all of them). Becoming a LEO is not about protecting anymore, but more of an ego boost. Been taught to follow the book. But, don't know if they know how to think on their feet. Always resorting to using force.

The image of police and police work has been tainted so bad in the mainstream media. Unrealistic Gung ho actors portraying police has become the accepted cultural norm.

I wonder how the old timers, experienced LEO would have solve this problem. But, then again, we are facing a different society, culture and values than in the times past.

roo_ster
April 9, 2007, 10:59 AM
Assumed: Talking has been tried and did not work.

Taking down a belligerent 75 YO lady is a no-win situation. Kinda like fighting a belligerent cripple.

I do have experience with the latter (from when I was a kid). I was willing to talk, back up, and even move on. I did not want to thump a walking/running birth defect*. Thing was, his legs were fine, so I eventually stood my ground and went to Fist City with the obnoxious pr!ck.

Sometimes you have no good choices & you gotta do the distasteful.

* One arm atrophied & useless, the other without a thumb, but quite strong due to it being the only upper limb with utility.

dicky r
April 9, 2007, 11:53 AM
Well.....
There are 2 sides to every story. Personally, I think the LEO should have called in backups and then they should have Rodney King'ed her belligerent old self right into the ground. I mean come on, what's the use in having authority if you can't use it?

ebd10
April 9, 2007, 12:18 PM
There are 2 sides to every story.

Wrong. There are 3 sides to every story; LEO side, the accused's side, and THE TRUTH!

gm
April 9, 2007, 01:18 PM
I work with senior citizens on a day to day basis,I volunteer and I enjoy doing it.They can sometimes get upset and get combative but when you're that old, its easy to get upset and see why,what we percieve as petty things are a big deal to them.More often than not, alittle understanding and patience is all one needs to de-escalate their anger.Some of them cant help it as their mind is going with dementia and altzheimers.

Sounds like the home and the officer have poor skills.Why didnt anyone bother to find the womans friend who was out wandering around,seems that would have solved the problem before the officer came,too busy?

halfacop
April 9, 2007, 02:36 PM
LEOs are government employees, and as such (supposedly) ultimately answerable to the people.

I never said they were not "answerable" to the people.

Experience as a LEO is not a prerequisite for valid criticism thereof.


I don't go around telling a welder how to do his job correctly. How could - I have never welded anything in my life. What do I know about it? NOTHING! I'm seeing a trend here...................

For many elderly, falling on a hard surface is likely to cause serious, potentially debilitating or even life-threatening injury. I'm certain that there were alternatives, and it seems very likely that the officer in this case was too quick to "pull the trigger."


The question was - would it be better to fall alone or with someone tackling her, falling ON TOP of her. No one questioned that a fall could hurt her.

Becoming a LEO is not about protecting anymore,

Your right - its about babysitting people who cannot behave themselves.

I have to ask, before the advent of the tazers, how did LE's get by????

Seems like the tazers are used so willy nilly by LE's now adays. I think the use of a tazer should be seen almost as harshly as the use of a firearm.


They got by with OC Spray. Which can cause a host of medical issues more so than the taser.

How the hell can you compare being tasered to being shot with a firearm? The two are completely on the opposite end of the scale.

Funny how everytime a officer does something "questionable", your hell bent to hang them without all the facts. You'd swear you think they were just a bunch of jack booted thugs always out there banging doors down and surpressing your rights.

They are out there fighting the fight - that no one else signed up to do.

Lupinus
April 9, 2007, 03:16 PM
What the hell!

So now if we think that we may need to use deadly force on someone we should be using the taser instead?

The taser falls in the use of force continum under mace for cripe sake!

"Hey he's shooting at us - quick get the taser out"!

I for one would much rather have seen her taser the old lady than to face plant her into the carpet.
Don't be redicules, you meet force with force. But when you taz a 75 year old lady who gets upset and you taz dad at chucky cheese it is excessive. And tackeling her? Yeah taz the old lady or tackle her? ***? It's nice to see the choices some people present themselves with it is no wonder this crap happens. When used right tazers are just fine, when used like this as an excuse to be trigger happy? Hell no.

Coronach
April 10, 2007, 12:41 AM
I have to ask, before the advent of the tazers, how did LE's get by????I'll tell you how.

COPS BEAT THE SNOT OUT OF PEOPLE.

Since the adoption of Tasers by my department, over-all uses of force (as defined as tacklings, macings, taserings, strikings (open-handed and impact weapn), uses of a K9, gunshots, etc) have remained roughly steady (minor fluctuations over the three years, up a little and down a little), but the uses of serious uses of force (strikes, K9, gunshots) have gone down something on the order of 40%.

That's 40% less people who have been punched, kicked, kneed, hit with a flashlight or baton, bitten by a dog, or shot.

I dunno. I call that an improvement. I guess you don't.

Seems like the tazers are used so willy nilly by LE's now adays.The important word in that statement is "seems."I think if an LE uses a tazer on duty, he has to explain his actions before a civilian review board. The tazer is a good tool, but it has been used freely with no consequences by the LE community.Do you have a basis for this, or is this more "seems" stuff? Last time I checked, the same controls over me applied to any and all uses of force, including the Taser.I have to tell you, honestly if I saw an LE use a tazer against my 80 year old grandmother, I'd consider it a life threating action and probably use my CCW to stop him. I would rather face a jury of 12 with a lawyer by myside than to look in the mirror every morning and realize that I failed to protect my grandmother by letting some SOB tazer her. :rolleyes: Uh, sure. Except that you could not stop it once it was deployed, and you'd probably be facing the undertaker, not a jury. But whatever.I think the quality of the majority of the people who would want to become a Law Enforcement Officer has been on the steady decline over the years(Not all of them). Becoming a LEO is not about protecting anymore, but more of an ego boost. Been taught to follow the book. But, don't know if they know how to think on their feet. Always resorting to using force.I think more people avoid LE, or get out of LE after a short period of time, due to the fact that it is a dangerous job and they know you will be armchair-quarterbacked by your chain of command, the judicial system in the criminal case, the media, the judicial system in a civil case, and various internet discussion boards. The general consensus is "screw that." The ones that remain, at least around here, tend to have more of a love of the profession than they do a love of bossing people around.The image of police and police work has been tainted so bad in the mainstream media. Unrealistic Gung ho actors portraying police has become the accepted cultural norm.Maybe for the culture as a whole, but cops don't buy it. Most of us just laaaaaugh at Hollywood.I wonder how the old timers, experienced LEO would have solve this problem. But, then again, we are facing a different society, culture and values than in the times past.Probably tried verbal commands, de-escalarion, and, if that failed to work, slammed her into the carpet, dragged her to jail, and gone to get a cup of coffee. I don't know it for a fact, but I strongly suspect that the same verbal techniques were tried prior to using the Taser.Well.....
There are 2 sides to every story. Personally, I think the LEO should have called in backups and then they should have Rodney King'ed her belligerent old self right into the ground. I mean come on, what's the use in having authority if you can't use it?Well, let's assume that verbal commands and de-escalation and various forms of persuasion were tried and failed. You are the manager of the facility that has called the police there to have this person removed. What would YOU want to happen? You called the police to get her out of there. They have tried talking. They have tried threatening. Both have failed. Do they just leave?

If they did, you would would be furious because they did not do their job.

And you'd be right to be.

Yeah taz the old lady or tackle her? ***? It's nice to see the choices some people present themselves with it is no wonder this crap happens. The point is that sometimes those ARE the options. Not always. Not even usually. Most of the time you can show up, show a little compassion, say, "Ma'am, I'm sorry, but you have to leave" and resolve the whole situation in a dignified manner. Or at least cajole some cooperation. Or, look really mean and say that you'll take someone to jail, the whole time hoping you don't have to go that route.

Sometimes you can't. Sometimes there is nothing to do but physically remove the person. ASSUMING that is the case, you suddenly have to be very concerned about how you do it, when the person who has to be removed is elderly. Grabbing hurts. Joint manipulation techniques can break bones. Tackling is going to break something, perhaps a hip, or a spine, and perhaps irrepairably.

Is the Taser the best option in that case? I have no idea, since I still don't know the details. But, you know? It seems a lot less unreasonable when you look at it in that light, and under those assumptions.

Mike

Coronach
April 10, 2007, 12:43 AM
Oops.

Another mod closed the thread, while I was typing.

I'm guessing this got closed for a general lack of civility. If you want to discuss taser use in general, feel free to start a new thread, but keep it civil.

Let's not bring this particular case back up again, though, unless we have some NEW information. We're just rehashing the same crap now.

Mike

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