Glaser Blue vs. Silver Safety Slugs for HD -- "atmospheric" issues


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P. Plainsman
October 22, 2004, 06:34 PM
Overpenetration is not acceptable when you live in a suburb. Your neighbors are entitled to live unmolested. This is one reason why I load .38+Ps, not .357s, in my bedside 4" GP100.

I have been thinking about taking a stronger step, and swapping in Glaser Safety Slugs (in .38+P) for some or all of my "standard six" when I load the cylinder for home defense.

The question is: which flavor of frangible ammo is the best choice for my purposes -- Blue or Silver Glasers?

See, I ordered a dozen .38 +P Glasers from Sturgis the other day. (http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1980) ($$$ -- ouch!) I waffled back and forth when placing my order, and ultimately decided to go with Silvers over the Blues. Kind of a split-the-difference-choice. I figured they'd give me most of the benefits of the Blues, with a little more penetration in case the assailant has a heavy winter coat or some such.

Well, they arrived today, and they look like high quality equipment. But I was reading the package. It cautions that this is "high energy" ammo loaded to top power (all Cor-Bon stuff is). OK. Presumably the Blues say that too. And then there's some info about how the Glaser has this huge kinetic energy dump because of all the little shot pellets.

And then, something to the effect of: "We offer BLUE Safety Slugs for maximum overpenetration protection. SILVER Safety slugs for extra penetration power."

Hmmm. Not sure what a clever DA might make of that language if he took a dislike to me in the wake of a self-defense shooting in which I had used the Silvers.

Look, all Glasers are basically a specialized, expensive, high-grade ammunition. So it seems to me, if you want the benefit of the pro-safety atmospherics ("I didn't load my gun with these special, expensive, hi-tech rounds because they're like mini-shotgun shells. I had heard they are the safest ammo, the least likely to keep traveling and hurt somebody other than the bad guy.") -- which really is my reason for being interested in the Safety Slugs -- then you should stick with the Blue Glasers and not try to get cute. The Silvers could be misconstrued by an anti-gun prosecutor or jury and made out to look "worse" than workaday FMJ or JHP ammo.

If you aren't interested in atmospherics, and just want serious, functional defensive ammo that maximizes your handgun, and conclude that the Silver Safety Slug is the best balanced for your purpose, that's obviously a different matter.

I suspect I'll place another order (sigh -- $$$) and do it right this time, get the Blues.

All of the above is miles away from being hard advice, legal or otherwise. What do y'all think of my speculations?

Edited to add: Mods, maybe this belongs in the Handguns: General forum. But I would be particularly interested to hear what my fellow defensive wheelgun users (paging Jim March!) think of the issue I've raised.

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Jim March
October 22, 2004, 08:16 PM
Run 357 Glasers, not 38+P. This is my opinion but, my reasoning is that the faster and "wider" these break up, the safer they are...so hotter is GOOD.

Blue 357 Glasers oughta do :).

In 38+P, run Silvers...but that combination won't be as "bystander safe" as 357 blues.

Edward429451
October 22, 2004, 09:05 PM
Glasers are ok IMO. Some people bash em because they aren't a real magic bullet. Eh, Maybe so. But if you hit what you're aiming at, they'll work as good as anything, and if you miss...you have a certain amount of non ricochet potential with the break up of them. Which is good.

I denounce em for the price alone!

Understand that when they hit a soft target, they fragment and do the hamburger thing, but when they hit something solid, like a 2 X4, they close up on themselves.

I like them and have shot a slew of my homemade ones. Killed my chrony with one, didnt put it on paper first.:o They're super accurate in my experiance.

Rangie
October 22, 2004, 10:16 PM
Know your target and what's beyond it.

Any bullet sutible for antipersonell use will zip right through sheetrock walls.-- End of story.

Jim March
October 22, 2004, 11:34 PM
Glasers in "mousegun calibers", definately 380 and below, are to be avoided. Only the best ones can punch deep enough.

BluesBear
October 22, 2004, 11:48 PM
I have a rather nice supply of Glaser Safety Slugs in several calibers, in both Blue and Silver.
I like them a lot, they have their place. I carry them often.


They have been marketed for over 25 years as being designed strictly as a self defense/law enforcement ammunition with limited penetration and offering less danger to bystanders.
If someone was going to get hung out to dry for using Glasers (or Mag-Safe or Bee-Safe) it would have happened YEARS ago!


I am getting so sick and tired of people whining and crying and wringing their hands in the irrational fear that some ambulance-chasing attorney will get their bloomers in a bunch over what ammunition you used to shoot someone with.

When the balloon goes up, your ammunition choice will have no bearing on the outcome*.
Follow closely here...
Either you had the right to defend youself with deadly force or you didn't. PERIOD.

Any competent defense attorney will be able to nulify any concerns the other side may bring up regarding ammo. And mark my words you'd better hire an attorney with a lot more than basic competence to defend you.
After a SD shooting you're going to have a LOT more to worry about than what ammo you used*.

Oh sure there will be many armchair legal experts out there (and in here)who will pontificate about how using such and such ammo will raise eyebrows and could cause you to forfeit your life, land, liberty and first born offspring.
BÛLL$H|T !
No one, anywhere has been able to come forth with any case history that shows that ammunition choice in a self defense shooting mattered one bit.
Just use the ammunition that will git'R'done and don't worry what someone else will think about it*.
Some of y'all been watching so much CSI Miami & The Practice that you're starting to believe it. Next thing you know you'll be putting little pink Million Mom March stickers on your Kydex holster and voting to ban "Cop Killer Bullets".





*OK there is perhaps one consideration that needs to be addressed.
I would avoid using that stupid exotic shotgun ammo you see at gun shows.
You know what I mean. The two big lead balls connected by the piano wire or the ones that have small nails and tacks mixed in with the shot.
That stuff just makes you look like a Sprigger and just might get you hung.

magsnubby
October 23, 2004, 02:13 AM
My wife's cousin's boyfriend's neighbor's girlfriend's mother's grandpa's uncle's next door neighbor's father-in-law is an attorney. And he said he had a client that went to jail for using home made dum dum bullets.

So i only use factory bullets in my guns. None of those dum dum cop killing Rambo bullets for me.

MrTuffPaws
October 23, 2004, 03:02 AM
Well, if you are really worried about OP, then I suggest that you take your gun and glassers to the range with a target made out of 2x4s and sheetrock, shoot the thing, and tell us what happens.

Plinkerton
October 23, 2004, 03:05 AM
I kept .357 Silvers in my 4" 686 for a while. I live in an apartment complex, so obviously overpenetration is unacceptale. Lately, I've been keeping .38+p golden sabers in it instead, for no other reason than that's what I had next to the gun.

I wouldn't imagine Glasers not stopping some bastard who breaks into your house. Maybe I should start loading those instead.

Anyhow, i don't know where I'm going with this, but I use glasers. So there. :D

Edward429451
October 23, 2004, 11:55 AM
Maybe I should start loading those instead.

Let us know where you find them for sale as a component.;)

Plinkerton
October 23, 2004, 03:12 PM
Haha, I didn't mean like that. i just meant, maybe I should keep those loaded in my gun instead. :D I wish I had the room, money, and time to reload. It looks like fun.

P. Plainsman
October 23, 2004, 04:29 PM
When the balloon goes up, your ammunition choice will have no bearing on the outcome*.
Follow closely here...
Either you had the right to defend youself with deadly force or you didn't. PERIOD.

Any competent defense attorney will be able to nulify any concerns the other side may bring up regarding ammo.

Oh sure there will be many armchair legal experts out there (and in here)who will pontificate about how using such and such ammo will raise eyebrows and could cause you to forfeit your life, land, liberty and first born offspring.
BÛLL$H|T !

Reality is not that simple. "No bearing" on the outcome? Come now.

Some SD cases are clear. In those cases, sure. But legal standards in this area are fuzzy-edged. Good men and women, doing the right thing, have ended up in self-defense situations that are legally a close call. Lots of jurors don't look at these issues the way you and I would. In a close case, each little fact becomes relevant. It's about who can tell the jury the most satisfying "story" about what happened, who was the good guy, the bad guy. That's not legal advice, but it's my perception of our flawed reality.

Just use the ammunition that will git'R'done and don't worry what someone else will think about it*.

With the exception of overpenetration that endangers innocents -- unacceptable -- I sympathize with your point. It is the flip side of the concern I raised.

I am getting so sick and tired of people whining and crying and wringing their hands in the irrational fear that some ambulance-chasing attorney will get their bloomers in a bunch over what ammunition you used to shoot someone with.

Cool it with the abuse. It is fair to consider both sides of the issue.

Some of y'all been watching so much CSI Miami & The Practice that you're starting to believe it. Next thing you know you'll be putting little pink Million Mom March stickers on your Kydex holster and voting to ban "Cop Killer Bullets".

Sir, I send my dough to pro-2A organizations several times a year -- money I could be spending on good wine, ammo, or paying down my student loans -- precisely because I wish to avoid such outcomes.

Also, I don't own a television.

Edward429451
October 23, 2004, 07:16 PM
No disrespect to BluesBear here but plainsman is right. Whats that we say? The only dumb question is one thats not asked? Look at his post count, He don't know we've been over that question a gazillion times...

In case he hasn't heard El Tejons opinion on that issue, allow me to reiterate...

Thats problem #2 anyway. Prioritize. First things first. Something along those lines. Use whatever ammo you want and don't worry about the aftermath. If it comes up, you can deal with it then.

BluesBear
October 24, 2004, 06:40 AM
Plainsman, I don't why you are so upset over my reply, most of it wasn't even targeted toward you.

We seem to discuss this evey three months or less.
It always ends up the same...
Don't worry about it.
NO ONE, and I repeat NONE of our Thirteen Thousand plus members has even been able to come up with one single instance where the type of ammunition used in a self defense shooting has make a damn bit of difference in the outcome.

I have even has a close friend of mine in the legal profession do a L/N search for it. Nothing turned up. Nada, Zip, Zilch.

In the several shooting cases I have personally been involved in it was never brought up. Even when it was a handloaded hollow base wadcutter loaded over an obscene powder charge that expanded to almost the size of a quarter. It was never even MENTIONED in the trial. And the prosecution was grasping for straws in that one.

It just doesn't happen.

There is a teeny tiny possibility that it might be brought up someday. Perhaps someone lurking here who sees us talking about it incessently might decide to use it at a furute date. But as of now...

Fageddaboudit!

Use what gets the job done today and worry about the legal problems tomorrow.

Believe me IF you shoot somebody in self defense someday, even if you have a thousand witnesses who say you are 100% in the right, you will have problems. And ALL of them will be a LOT more important than what bullet you launched.


For those of you have already made up your minds, that's find.
You have the right to your opinion.
Just be sure you don't let any facts get in the way.

Even though I have a lot of respect for Mr Ayoob, I think he should be thrice slapped across the face with the tail of a four day old carp for opening this can of worms in a national magazine.
Just because the name Massad sounds a little bit like Messiah doesn't mean everything he says is Gospel.

cls12vg30
October 24, 2004, 10:03 PM
Slightly OT, but does anyone have any opinions on MagSafe ammo? It's the only defensive round I could find in 7.62x25 for use in my CZ-52 which I keep loaded for home defense. No way would I want to shoot FMJ's out of that thing in my apartment! I don't expect MagSafes to penetrate all that much, even though the 7.62x25 ones have been clocked at nearly 2900 fps! :what:
But like I said, Tokarev FMJ's are just too hot for home defense in an apartment setting, so I don't have much choice other than the Magsafes.

Jim March
October 25, 2004, 12:20 AM
Magsafe what? Defender? SWAT? They make several others too.

That matters as much as the caliber.

The Defenders use fairly large steel shot. Figure the human penetration depth will be somewhere between that of the Glaser Silver and Glaser Blue for any given caliber.

The SWAT is...well, junk, in my opinion. Maybe in 44Mag out of a long barrel...

Edward429451
October 25, 2004, 01:10 AM
Just because the name Massad sounds a little bit like Messiah doesn't mean everything he says is Gospel.

Thats funny! Sounds like something Jeff Cooper would say.:D

Anybody ever take a stab at making these kinds of slugs? From what I understand, Joe Zambone (magsafe) started out making his Magsafes by melting the lead out of commercial hollowpoints with a hand torch and then filling them with shot and sealing it with epoxy. Load as usual.

HankB
October 25, 2004, 01:53 PM
If you're worried about ammo type coming back to haunt you consider:

Use the same ammo the cops use, and you're a cop wannabe.

Use FMJ ammo, and you're playing soldier, and are careless about overpenetration.

Use JHP ammo, and you're shooting dum dums banned by the Hague Accords.

Use CCI Blazer ammo, and you're trying to kill people on the cheap.

Use reloads, and you're home brewing super deadly stuff.

Use +P, and regular ammo isn't good enough for you?

etc. etc. etc.

My take, unless you're filling the ammo with poison or something the type of ammo you use will have no bearing on a "good" shoot. If it gets to court (civil or criminal) later on, your attorney should be prepared - in advance - to defuse the issue if it comes up at all. (And if it DOES come up, it's a pretty good indication that the other side is grasping at straws.)

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