What caliber would penetrate a windshield?


PDA






Mastrogiacomo
October 23, 2004, 01:17 PM
I hear a lot about the ability of different calibers and frankly, I wouldn't want to take a bullet from any gun. However, I heard from a state cop that he uses a Sig 220 because only a .45 will penatrate a windshield of a car. Fact or just ego?

If you enjoyed reading about "What caliber would penetrate a windshield?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
shermacman
October 23, 2004, 01:27 PM
Lotta variables here. If I fire my M1 Garand at an angle oblique enough to the windshield the bullet will skip off the glass. On the other hand, when my father-in-law was a kid he fired a Daisy Red Ryder pellet gun through the side window of his neighbor’s car...lots a laughs in that story!
I would guess that even a small caliber (.32 for instance) with a full metal jacket would go through and a hollow point .45 could go splat like a bug and not penetrate.
Mastro, let's you and I hit the Fenway after tonight's game and try a bunch of different guns and ammo. Given the riotous behavior of locals, no one will notice!

Linux&Gun Guy
October 23, 2004, 01:28 PM
I think ego!

Im sure a fast moving bullet like a 9mm JHP would go through a windsheild as well.

Mastrogiacomo
October 23, 2004, 01:32 PM
When this cop was telling me about his .45 -- all I could think is "Jesus, how hard is it to penatrate a car window?" After all, you could do with a small device sold in automotive shops that smash the window so you can escape in an emergency. It doesn't take much effort really with this gadget, so considering the power and speed a bullet has -- how difficult would it be to do it with a .22, 9mm or any other caliber?

Chipperman
October 23, 2004, 01:41 PM
The devices you refer to apply a large force to a very small surface area.
.45 is large, slow, and blunt.
9mm FMJ is more pointed and faster than .45.

The FMJ prob would penetrate more easily than HP of any caliber.

Angle, as stated, is a critical variable.

(...and I am not going anywhere near Fenway, thank you. Armed or not, it's just isn't worth it)

gezzer
October 23, 2004, 02:04 PM
Windsheilds are not like the side windows, they have a layer of plastic between 2 sheets of glass, this will not shatter into little pieces.

Larger calibers if stright on penetrate well but any type angle thet will not.

My idea for windshields would be .308 or 30/06 they work nice!

nitesite
October 23, 2004, 02:25 PM
Those punches and hammers sold for escape from a car are only designed for the tempered glass in the side windows, NEVER for the windshield. Windshield are incredibly tough and flexible even when broken. They even provide critical structural integrity so the body won't flex.

I've used those loaded punches on side windows and the window literally explodes and cascades down, leaving a wide opening in the door. A windshield simply won't do that because of the laminates of plastic and glass.

The best bullet design to increase the odds of windshield penetration is a sharp edge, like a semi-wadcutter. This is especially important when striking from an oblique angle. The more rounded the nose, the less likely it will penetrate and the more likely it will ricochet off.

The higher the velocity, the better. Big and slow is no real advantage over a real fast-stepper (like a rifle round). Lacking said rifle, I would think the .357 SIG or .357 Magnum or 10mm would perform better than the .45ACP.

artherd
October 23, 2004, 02:37 PM
Let's put this firmly to rest. Your cop friend is mistaken, pure and simple.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing_t.aspx

This ammunition is held to very rigerous testing standards.

Look at the 'AUTOGLASS' tests.

The 9mm retained more weight, and penetrated further into the test target *after* being shot through the windshield, than the .45.

Either round will do the job with success. Perioid.

DMK
October 23, 2004, 03:52 PM
I'd think the windshield's angle would be the biggest problem. Most cars and even some trucks today have sharply angled and curved windshields to improve fuel economy and reduce wind noise.

Hitting an angled windshield with any bullet is going to be like shooting at water in a lake.

atek3
October 23, 2004, 04:04 PM
didn't 223 fail to disable the target after fired through windshield glass during the miami shoot out?

atek3

GOT
October 23, 2004, 04:30 PM
Water will deflect a bullet at some angles and in some circumstances (I've had it happen to me and seen it happen a few times).

A 10mm round will send a bullet through a windshield with not much trouble at all.

I've put .22lr though several windshields (goofing off as a youngster with friends at a local junk yard).

cratz2
October 23, 2004, 05:16 PM
I'll have to revisit the facts of the Miami shootout. I thought only one of the bad guys had a 223 and he was shooting OUT of the car, not into one.

As far as different handgun calibers, a fast moving solid, small diameter projectile with high sectional density should work the best, in general. A 158 or 180 Gr LSWC 357 Magnum should be at the top of the list, followed by 357s of lesser weight, heavier 9mms and 357 SIGs. A 147 Gr Gold Dot or Ranger T 357 SIG at 1,050 fps would probably excellent.

Bullet constriction would be very important and I got $50 that says a 115 Gr CorBon doesn't hold up well to modern windshield barriers. :p

Ironman
October 23, 2004, 05:40 PM
Guys, me and some friends have a special shooting place we goto and we brought an old car we bought for 100bucks and shot the ???? out of it. (1978 audi, good shape) well every damn bullet we fired went through the windshield out the back window and hit trees. (9mm, .40, .22lr,.223, 12Gslug, 30-06) all of those also went through the whole car and hit trees on the other side(door, panels, panels, door, tree) the .223 went through the steel engine block like butter(55grn FMJ). Fact is the cop doesnt know that much about firearms as some of them really dont.(talking about the ones that only have thier issue gun and no others at home)

joab
October 23, 2004, 06:14 PM
Your friend is probably quoting an article in one of Peterson's gun mags from a few years ago.
The author stated that the .45 hardbal is the only round that will consistantly penetrate a windshield at any angle I believed it for years too.
After all it was printed in a gun mag.

Mastrogiacomo
October 23, 2004, 06:22 PM
You're probably right. I go to class where they're a lot of cops so every so often, I ask about their guns. One guy and I got talking and he came right out and said "I don't know one gun from the next. I'm not a gun person." At the time I was just taking about the Glocks and Sigs...:rolleyes:

I personally wouldn't want anything aimed at me when inside the car so I thought it was a little ignorant of him to suggest my Beretta 9mm couldn't damage the way his Sig .45 could. If anything, Ironman's experience with the car as a target is proof that there's no such thing as a "weak" caliber really....

nitesite
October 23, 2004, 06:43 PM
Ironman-

WOW!!! those are some amazing results. Especially the 22LR, and the .223 clean thru the block!

Thanks for sharing your experience with us. Not all of us can shoot up a car! Sure sounds like fun!

artherd
October 24, 2004, 02:59 AM
I personally wouldn't want anything aimed at me when inside the car so I thought it was a little ignorant of him to suggest my Beretta 9mm couldn't damage the way his Sig .45 could. If anything, Ironman's experience with the car as a target is proof that there's no such thing as a "weak" caliber really....

I've had the same expierence. .22LR penetrated 3/4" plywood, into an old and thick refrigerator, and exited said refrigerator... Of course 9mm did too.

Ask your friend next time if he wants to sit in a car while you shoot the windshield with your 9mm if he's so confident? :D)

There is nothing special about .45ACP, just as there is nothing special about 9mm. They're both just underpowered pistol rounds (see sig :)

buttrap
October 24, 2004, 07:08 AM
well I know a person that had 2 mag loads of .45 shot in his face at 20 feet tru a windsheild..he is still alive..damn lucky it was not 9mm or .357. PS only thing I have seen that would transfix a engine block was AP out of a .50 BMG or a .55 Brit AT gun.

Desert Dog
October 24, 2004, 12:55 PM
PS only thing I have seen that would transfix a engine block was AP out of a .50 BMG or a .55 Brit AT gun.

I have shot through the side of a cast-iron Nissan 4-cylinder block from about 20 yards with a .454 Casull out of a Puma 20" barrel. It penetrated all the way through, taking out the piston in the process.

I have no doubt I could disable an automobile with a well placed shot.

I bet my 45-70 handloads would be even more destructive...

Blue Line
October 24, 2004, 01:07 PM
Aren't most of the engine blocks made of Aluminum these days with cast iron sleaves for the pistons to ride in?

Desert Dog
October 24, 2004, 01:20 PM
No this was an old cast iron block we found abandoned in the desert. It was most definitely iron...

Shaughn Leayme
October 24, 2004, 03:00 PM
The problem with modern windshields, is that due to how they are constructed, they share some of the same properties that go into making bullet resistant windshields.

You must then consider the angle of the glass which makes the material that must be penetrated even thicker, then we add into the equation the polymers and other ingredients in modern windshield glass and we can have an effect that can be similiar to shooting a ceramic insert found in heavy body armour.

Because safety glass is intended to maintain structural integrity in an accident it is very tough.

A non bonded bullet will have it's jacket stripped off as it penetrates thru the glass and in the process shed a fair amount of energy and as it enters the angle become perpendicular to the glass, which can result in a miss and the fragment pattern will be a cone shape (much like shot from a shotgun) and can inflict secondary injuries to persons in the immediate vicinity of the impact point.

As far as shooting thru engine blocks, you may be able to penetrate the outer wall of the cylinders after the bullet has pentrated the skin of the fender, negotiated its way thru any structural cross memebers and accessories. But this depends on the rounds used and would usually require the composition of the bullet to contain elements like tungsten, brass, bronze or special alloys add to it the shape of the projectile and pentrator and velocity/energy quotient and range and then you could have a round capable of penetrating and engine block.

As far as regular handgun or rifles with standard designed ammunition, you may be able to damage the engine block, but not shoot right thru it,(more likely to take out the electrical or sub systems, injector controls) hence the reason that it is so hard to stop vehicles with small arms fire.

nitesite
October 24, 2004, 05:03 PM
As far as regular handgun or rifles with standard designed ammunition, you may be able to damage the engine block, but not shoot right thru it,(more likely to take out the electrical or sub systems, injector controls) hence the reason that it is so hard to stop vehicles with small arms fire.

What you say is exactly correct. Hence my reply that it is
amazing that a .223 FMJ could go through even an aluminum block "like butter". I think I would be hard pressed to repeat that feat with my M193s, even if I first removed the crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons first. The only way a bullet has even a hope of exiting thru the far side is if it still maintained a perfect nose-first penetrating angle and had not spalled or drastically decelerated.

Black Snowman
October 24, 2004, 05:35 PM
The location of the impact has a major effect too. Some portions of engine block are MUCH thinner than others depending on the design. All the way through still seems unlikely even in soft iron with only a 223. Possible, but shouldn't happen the majority of times.

Something to keep in mind, cars are concealment, not cover. Most of a car won't stop most bullets.

Evil_Ed
October 25, 2004, 04:07 PM
Something to keep in mind, cars are concealment, not cover. Most of a car won't stop most bullets.

Hehehehe, Anybody else watch MythBusters last night? They shot the gas tank, side panels, etc on an older Caddy, pretty much disproved botht he myth of the exploding gas tank and the myth of the car door protecting you from gun fire...that car door looked like swiss cheese after they were done and the bullets continued on through the passenger door as well.

Mgraff
October 25, 2004, 08:14 PM
I know for a fact a .22 lr will go right through a windshield.:evil: I saw a buddy of mine do it from the passenger seat right thru his windshield...LOL BTW this will scare the crap out of you when it happens!! If it hits fairly squarely it goes right on thru...I'd think if there is much of an angle to the impact it would probably bounce off...dunno but a .22 lrwill with out a doubt ..."git 'er done!"

MrMurphy
October 25, 2004, 10:01 PM
The Texas DPS used to issue .357 Magnums and they loved them. Worked well on people as well as car doors and windshields. They went to Sig P220s in .45, and liked the .45's performance on people, but it sucked on car doors and windshields. So they switched to .357 Sig, which replicates the performance from a 4" revolver of the 125g .357 Mag loads.

Apparently, it works just fine going through cars, windshields, and people. I know of one where the shot penetrated the rear windshield, the headrest and whacked the BG in the head. Sig P226, .357 Sig.

garrettwc
October 26, 2004, 01:15 AM
There are anomalies in every caliber, vehicle glass just exagerates this.

Some of you may have read about the shoot out in Marion Co. Indiana (Indianapolis) recently. The suspect was in a Chevy Tahoe with tinted windows. Out of a total 40 rounds fired (20 of .223, and 20 of handgun .40 cal IIRC) there was only one round that penetrated and hit the driver.

The one that hit was handgun caliber.

The tint on the side windows caused the same laminating effect as the safety coating on the front windshield. Several of the rounds fragmented. Shot placement may have been a factor as there were not enough hits in the same place to "blow out" any of the windows.

Your best bets are to go for the side glass, as deflection from the front is unpredictable. The only handgun round that I have read of consistent (100%) penentration of auto glass was 230gr ball, not JHP, ball.

While I am sure there are some rounds that will work as well, the only answer seems to be concentrated fire to open up the glass and allow a direct hit to the BG.

MrMurphy
October 26, 2004, 01:28 AM
I was present at the tail end of a shooting (mistaken identity gangbanger hit). 8 shots fired, mix of 9mm and .40 by the casings I saw. Two shooters, or one guy doing a two-gun-Neo-imitation, but likely two shooters, about two feet back from the trunk lid of a Buick. Out of eight rounds fired directly through the rear windshield at a nonmoving, unsuspecting target, from all of three yards, only one hit,in the lower back (9mm). The others were either stopped by the glass, directed somewhere else after going through the glass, or stopped by the car seat.

He lived.

KaceCoyote
October 26, 2004, 02:03 AM
I had an old 258ci 4.0L chrysler I4 (check me on the Ci there) that was pretty much junk in my book. THe block itself wasnt too bad but it was out in the middle of a field and its not like theres any shortage of these motors about so being the responsible teenager I am, I deemed it that the most effective way of dealing with this problem included a rifle.


Using my trusty Bolt action Savage in .223 and a bulk pack've Barnaul hollowpoints, within 50 rounds the block was toast. Most of the rounds didnt achieve complete penetration when they struck but I had probably a tenth of all of the rounds fired bite through and through. A good deal lodged halfway inside the cylinder while still others penetrated one side but bounced off and merely impacted the other side.

Now there -are- several factors I feel that hasnt been addressed just yet. What effect does the bodywork itself have on a bullet, does that degrade/destroy the FMJ's jacket or does it merely take the wind out've its sails? How does the cylinder react to a bullet strike when pressurized? This is without really understanding the differences in metalurgy from year to year, and all sorts of other factors like metal fatigue on an older motor or perhaps spiderwebbing. What about heat, when the motor is up and thrumming along at normal temperature what sort've difference does that make in the metal's willingness to deform?

Sam
October 26, 2004, 02:07 AM
Personally I have only seen 1 case where a shot at a BG through the windshield didn't penetrate. That was some GI issue 130 FMJ that failed to penetrate a Jeep windshield at about 60 ft. 35 degrees or better angle.
Busted glass in the eye stopped the guy anyway.

Sam

cratz2
October 26, 2004, 03:55 PM
Lots of interesting claims on this thread.... :p

As some have mentioned, angle has a lot to do with it as would bullet construction.

Again, some very interesting claims... :D

nitesite
October 26, 2004, 04:11 PM
'Bout the only engines I think are being regularly pierced thru-and-thru with .223 rounds are the ones being shot thru the oil pan......:p :p

Matt G
October 26, 2004, 05:38 PM
Window angle makes a huge difference, too.

I know very well an older cop who around 1970 was in a running car chase and shot a late '60's Chevy several times with a Browning HP with hot SuperVel 90g HP's (the passenger of the car was shooting backward at him at the time), and scored hit after hit on the back window, only to have 'em travel up into the headliner of the car and stop against the forward windshield frame over the bad guys' heads. The cars of the time had acute angles to the rear windows, which prevented penetration. He later moved to a .45 for increased momentum. Never got to test that out on a car, though.

R.H. Lee
October 26, 2004, 05:58 PM
The FMJ prob would penetrate more easily than HP of any caliber I wonder if the HP would have better 'purchase' on the glass by way of deformation, and thereby 'negotiate' its way through the glass?

garrettwc
October 26, 2004, 06:57 PM
I wonder if the HP would have better 'purchase' on the glass by way of deformation, and thereby 'negotiate' its way through the glass?

Statistically, that doesn't seem to be the case. It appears to increase the fragmentation and/or deflection of the bullet. Remeber, JHP is designed to expand in soft tissue, not punch through the hard surface which also happens to be at an angle.

nitesite
October 26, 2004, 08:53 PM
I think that when talking windshield glass, it's penetration not expansion that is the critical measure.

Hence my earlier post that sharp-edged bullets with a wide meplat (like a hard-cast SWC) are perhaps best.

I sincerely doubt a JHP would still expand even close to its designed performance after the edges of the cavity have been severly deformed.

Unfortunately, one cannot carry a magazine or speedloader loaded specifically for windshield penetration.

MrMurphy
October 26, 2004, 09:47 PM
Five rounds of shotgun slugs would likely solve the problem though. :) .72 caliber chunk of lead makes a nice hole in most anything. Friend of mine shot up several "technicals" (Guntrucks) in Somalia with a Mossberg 590 full of slugs and apparently it went through doors and windows like they weren't even there, whereas the 5.56mm wasn't always getting through.

artherd
October 26, 2004, 11:38 PM
I sincerely doubt a JHP would still expand even close to its designed performance after the edges of the cavity have been severly deformed.

Did you read my first post in this thread?

Expansion still occured, but was limited in all calibers.

All rounds did make it to nearly .50caliber, and on the order of 70% weight retained.

I carry the Winchester Ranger because of it's known performance on this and avariety of other targets. It's hardly a magic laser, but it is also not likely to do anything stupid like those 90grs above ;)

klover
October 26, 2004, 11:56 PM
As a teen, I shot the web of a train rail with a .303 square on from 30 yds.
A soft point lead bullet left a crater .5 wide by .5 inches deep! These rails are WAY tougher than an engine block, being composed of 1% manganese steel.:rolleyes:

nitesite
October 27, 2004, 09:38 AM
While the Ranger T is perhaps the best designed 9mm bullet out there, few shooters or concealed carry people have access to buying them. My statement was directed more toward the 99% of the other loadings offered out there like WWB (not that I'm trying to pick on that particular one). Look at the Federal 9BPLE, and I think you'll agree that it wouldn't take much of a sideways blow to close that opening up enough to hinder reliable expansion.

What makes the Ranger T so effective, I believe, is that its jacket is revese tapered. IOW, it is thickest at the nose and thinnest at the base. This design, in my opinion, prevents the hollow point from being crushed inward by the angled glass and thus allows it to still get some expansion in jello.

Ironman
October 27, 2004, 09:55 AM
well the best thing about shooting that car on page one is that we took video of it and it shows the penetration through the block, let me see if I can find that cd. If not we are going back in 2 weeks and the car is still there, ill have to take some more video.

rmmcg
November 14, 2010, 02:09 PM
I was told by a retired police sergeant that the Rhode Island State Police use the .357 Sig round because it is the only round that can penetrate a car's windshield.

SharpsDressedMan
November 14, 2010, 03:25 PM
AKM, 7.62x39, with Chinese steel core ammo. Windshield, or door, or both doors and anything in between.

wickedsprint
November 14, 2010, 03:42 PM
A long time ago some buddies were fooling around with a 25ACP in a car. We heard a gunshot..and you guessed it..accompanied by a small bullet hole in the windshield. So at least from the inside, a .25 will go through a windshield.

therewolf
November 14, 2010, 03:43 PM
Boy,

Homeland Security's GOT to be going "WTS?", on this one.

What practical purpose would this serve?

Are you talking penetrate the windshield ONLY, or penetrate AND hit a target behind the glass?

As to penetrating the glass, AND hitting a target behind it, IMO(Especially in a "cold shot" situation) forget it. This is a deflection heuristics/conundrum which baffles the world's best SWAT snipers.

As to merely penetrating the windshield glass, depending on vehicle speed, windshield angle(Pickups are much shallower than sports cars, generally, for example.) angle of your position, and other variables; it's arguable that almost any caliber in the right circumstances COULD penetrate the windshield. I personally would not trust most pistol rounds, possibly magnums excepted, to succeed in any general situation.

Also, if you DO penetrate on the first shot, that doesn't mean the next shot's going to be clear. The windshield may not shatter, and still provide protection from following rounds.

M1key
November 14, 2010, 03:59 PM
Here honey, hold this for me please...;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mr7CK7zEk



M

Bovice
November 14, 2010, 04:07 PM
What about heat, when the motor is up and thrumming along at normal temperature what sort've difference does that make in the metal's willingness to deform?


Heat increases a metal's tendency to deform. So shooting a hot engine block would be helpful to an extent if complete penetration was the goal.

Al Thompson
November 14, 2010, 04:14 PM
Jeez, way to answer a thread from 2004 !

Zombie!

Mags
November 14, 2010, 04:22 PM
Wasn't 50 Beowulf designed for that exact purpose?

leadcounsel
November 14, 2010, 05:15 PM
Fiction.

I've personally fired 9mm and .45 through windshields. Due to the angle bullets tend to deflect to an extent.

The reality is that slower, heavier bullets actually perform better at angled windshield penetration. Faster lighter bullets still penetrate, but not as reliably and tend to deflect more.

mgregg85
November 14, 2010, 05:28 PM
I remember watching Future Weapons show and the host said that 5.56x45 would just bounce right off car windows. Sounded like pure BS to me but then again, i've never shot at a car window before. I think that was the episode featuring the 6.5 grendel.

oldfool
November 14, 2010, 06:20 PM
most any centerfire round... and quite frequently even rimfire rounds ... will penetrate windshields, if hit pretty much square on. Anybody who ever shot up a junk car knows that. Some handgun rounds may not have a lot of spiz left after, but most centerfire rifle rounds do. Car doors are about as tough as soda pop cans.

Vehicles make for lousy cover in a gunfight
find a tree instead

Hatterasguy
November 14, 2010, 09:04 PM
Its hit and miss with a lot of variables. Still being inside a car that's not mobile is just about the worst place to be in a shoot out.

Overall rifle rounds have a much better chance of chewing up a car by default since they have more power. I have seen some nasty after action photo's of a Suburban that was chewed up with 5.56 rounds and they had enough balls to still turn the drivers head inside out and exit through the windshield after going through the truck and a few seats. I have seen the same with .30 carbine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ummnOoSfd54
OTOH you can fire a lot of rounds and have almost no affect.

alohachris
November 14, 2010, 09:24 PM
But when it's raining, the .45 ACp will penetrate right through a windshield due to the hydrostatic shock...

Justin Holder
November 14, 2010, 10:04 PM
I've put .22lr though several windshields (goofing off as a youngster with friends at a local junk yard).

I second this.

devildave31
November 14, 2010, 10:21 PM
The Texas DPS used to issue .357 Magnums and they loved them. Worked well on people as well as car doors and windshields. They went to Sig P220s in .45, and liked the .45's performance on people, but it sucked on car doors and windshields. So they switched to .357 Sig, which replicates the performance from a 4" revolver of the 125g .357 Mag loads.

Apparently, it works just fine going through cars, windshields, and people. I know of one where the shot penetrated the rear windshield, the headrest and whacked the BG in the head. Sig P226, .357 Sig.
If I remember corrctly, this was why .38 super was developed. Originally the .45 did well against unarmored troops in the open, however some of the people being fought against in The Phillipines would wrap vines around their torsos for armor and in the jungle even small (4 in) trees were stopping .45. the .38 super was desined to penetrate light armor, (cars, trees, etc.) specifically to fill that niche. It was originally desined for a 1911 pistol for the military.

gym
November 15, 2010, 11:52 AM
It depends on the angle that the round hits the winshield at. 38's have deflected off and 22's have penetrated, all depends on the angle of entry.

SharpsDressedMan
November 15, 2010, 02:07 PM
O.K. So far, it all depends on the angle. It also all depends on the velocity. But it also ALL depends on the mass. AND the bullet style. But don't forget about the glass composition. It also ALL DEPENDS on that, too. :D

gym
November 15, 2010, 04:04 PM
Yep that's about it SDM. It all depends

SharpsDressedMan
November 15, 2010, 05:01 PM
I thought I'd be a lot older before I had to rely on "Depends"............

Buck Snort
November 15, 2010, 05:52 PM
Many years ago I lived in Visalia, CA and there was a "Stop & Rob" grocery just down the street from my apartment. One nite a couple of guys pulled a stickup and jumped into their car to make the gittaway. The clerk stepped out the front door and directed a 38 spec. round at the fleeing car only to have the bullet richochet off the rear window, fly down the street, blow through a bathroom window of another apartment (not mine), and land in the sink whilst a guy was shaving. Needless to say he was a bit surprised by that turn of events. :eek:

Cards81fan
November 15, 2010, 06:26 PM
The proof is in the pudding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxxQXxdd3k

This is video from a tactical training class here in Oklahoma (no affiliation aside from the guy holding the class, Wes Elliot, was my CHL course instructor). My understanding is that these were all duty weapons, so mostly 9mm or .40 here in OK. Maybe a .45 or .357 SIG in there.

doc2rn
November 15, 2010, 06:38 PM
I have accompanied a friend to shoot at the fron half of a chevy van. Every round went through the windshield as ironman has stated. .22 lr, .22 wmr, .223, 38 spec, 357 mag, 30-30, and 25-06. The .22 lr was the jaw dropper as everyone thought it would bounce off, but it went through clean and it also will penitrate a door.

Kachok
November 15, 2010, 06:50 PM
The 5.56 does not bounce off a windsheild, it breaks it but has heavy deflection. Basicly it won't be headed the same difection after going through, glass deflection is exactly like brush deflection, it you want to avoid it here are the 4 steps. 1 use a larger caliber. 2 use a flat nose bullet 3 use a HEAVY bullet 4 use low speed bullet. The 223 breaks all these rules so hence its deflection it really bad. The .50 Baowolf does it all right and will maintain a reasonable level of accuracy shooting through brush, glass, and people LOL Why do you think the 30-30 and 45-70 have been around so long? Heavy, flat nose, low speed bullets. Hunters call them brush guns.

Shadow 7D
November 15, 2010, 08:38 PM
Go look up Buick of Truth
they work and go mostly through, and they DID it, not theories, those are nice, but like wishes, don't hold much water.

sig220mw
November 15, 2010, 08:51 PM
I helped a guy break his driver side window one morning. He had been drinking and locked himself out. We took turns banging on that window with his tire tool for probably 45 minutes. I was wishing that I had a pistol when he finally managed to break it. That blasted tempered glass is tough. We probably could have done it quicker with a sledge or other heavy hammer.

It made me much more skeptical of the television shows that show some one easily breaking a car window.

millertyme
November 16, 2010, 02:50 PM
but any type angle thet will not

So, any angle like 91 degrees. Even a right angle is still an angle.

If I fire my M1 Garand at an angle oblique enough to the windshield the bullet will skip off the glass

This is probably the most correct answer. As for the cop, well, they're cops, not physicists. Go ask a community college physics professor to model it for you. I imagine a .177 caliber BB gun would go through a windshield at the propers angle.

coloradokevin
November 16, 2010, 02:52 PM
There are other variables than caliber involved in answering this question. Bullet construction/design also plays a big part.

Honestly, based on what I've seen the 9mm and .45 are both about equally suited for shooting through windshield glass using the standard duty loads that most LEO's carry. I've attended one of the ATK Wound Ballistic workshops in the past (ATK owns Speer/Federal), and we fired 9mm/45/.223/12ga slugs through windshield glass at calibrated ballistic gelatin.

Windshield glass isn't a great medium to shoot through, but our data put the 9mm and .45 on a nearly equal playing field during these tests. If you REALLY want windshield penetration, try carrying a 12 gauge slug gun... In our slug test the projectile went through the windshield, passed through the gelatin block entirely, and then struck the ceiling armor in our range, 20 yards away.

The 5.56 does not bounce off a windsheild, it breaks it but has heavy deflection. Basicly it won't be headed the same difection after going through, glass deflection is exactly like brush deflection, it you want to avoid it here are the 4 steps. 1 use a larger caliber. 2 use a flat nose bullet 3 use a HEAVY bullet 4 use low speed bullet. The 223 breaks all these rules so hence its deflection it really bad.

While I agree that the heavy and slow bullet (12 gauge slug) performed better in these tests than the fast small bullet (.223), I have to say that our tests showed minimal deflection with the .223. The problem we experienced with the .223 was more related to bullet failure, as some of the bullets ultimately came apart in the gelatin block, thereby limiting penetration. In our case the expensive bonded bullets performed best, though we didn't test FMJ bullets (which my department doesn't allow). Still, the bullets impacted where they were intended to on the gelatin block, after having penetrated the glass.

Harley Quinn
November 16, 2010, 04:48 PM
OP and 45 cal, it is notorious for not penetrating in many tests...FMJ designed "pistol bullets" are not good for it either according to many...
Jim Cirillo book is good one...
http://www.amazon.com/Jim-Cirillo-Modern-Day-Gunfighter-Gunfighting/dp/087364896X

Dated though, his design of bullets for going through windshields, 38 cal...

Semi wad cutter designed fairly hard lead is good, sticks and goes through, must be moving at a good clip, 357 SIG in pistol are good imho...

Catch 22 situation about weight, speed and design, why so many LEO have gone the 40 Cal ...
Shooting at windshields is not a good thing, movies are for hollywood...

Regards

Diggers
November 16, 2010, 05:12 PM
Here are real test results for this question.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm

After you look at this, go to the main page and look at all the other car shooting tests. Interesting to see.

Kachok
November 16, 2010, 05:22 PM
Exactly like I said the slower heavier larger claiber will have less deflection, although I would not call this a true scientific test the results are consistant with what hunters have known for many years. Copper shotgun slugs and .50 cal handguns will make minced meat out of temperd glass, as will a .700 Nitro :)

gym
November 17, 2010, 12:13 PM
I didn't know we were relying on it, I thought it was just an arbitrary question, SDM

mokin
November 17, 2010, 03:26 PM
Back in high school some friends and I shot up an abandoned car. We started with our .22s and worked our way up to an 8mm Mauser and a 12 guage. I don't remember anything having trouble penetrating body panels and even the .22s penetrated the windshield when the angle was correct. All it took was one .22 shot to spiderweb the entire rear window. All the centerfire rounds penetrated both sides of the car and, near as we could tell, bumper to bumper if the engine didn't get in the way. Too much fun that day.

As the OP we were to young to carry handguns....

If you enjoyed reading about "What caliber would penetrate a windshield?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!