Remington-Rand 1911A1 Value


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FPrice
October 24, 2004, 07:37 PM
The Lord is tempting me mightily.

Today I found the last (specific) firearm which I have been looking for for my collection, a WWII GI 1911A1. It's a R-R (short story at the end) and appears to be in good shape. I only had a few minutes to examine it and did not have my Collector's Field Guide to check specifics, but from what I could see and remember it looks to be genuine. Seems to have all the correct markings although the serial number is not quite "even", that is, not neatly lined up. The serial number, 1,5xx,xxx puts it in 1943. It comes with a 1944 marked GI belt holster.

The guy is asking $750.

As far as the story behind the Remington-Rand. I had one of these about 25 years ago, also a 1943 model IIRC. However the ex asked for it in our divorce and in my haste to end the marriage I foolishly let her have it. :banghead:

Now is my chance to get another one. Should I?

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Darkmind
October 24, 2004, 07:57 PM
I dont know to much about the value of 1911s from the WWII era. But i would recomend takeing it apart and inspecting every part.


I myself got lucky enough to pick up a Colt made 1911 with a SN # of 8498XX for $350. I looked the SN up on the net and got a round about date of 1942.

Other than the sights and the fact that it was reblued in the 60s its all original. I do have the original sights and will be puting them on very soon.

Old Fuff
October 24, 2004, 09:58 PM
FPrice:

You didn't provide enough information, but I will assume that the pistol checks out, and is an original Remington Rand and not an arsenal rework. If that is the case and it is between very good to excellent condition then the price you mentioned would be a very good one. Excellent to mint examples are selling for over $1,000.00 and they are still going up.

Be aware though that a Remington-Rand slide does not mean its a R-R gun. To determine this the serial number and inspector's marks on the frame have to be checked. The value will drop quickly if the pistol has mixed parts.

FPrice
October 25, 2004, 12:27 AM
"Be aware though that a Remington-Rand slide does not mean its a R-R gun. To determine this the serial number and inspector's marks on the frame have to be checked."

I am going to try to go back tomorrow and bring my book. The serial number does put it in th R-R 1943 range. I recall some initials on the left side under the slide lock but do not recall what they were.

I would estimate the condition as good, perhaps a little better.

Lord help me I have 1911A1 fever. Let's hope there is a cure.

dsk
October 25, 2004, 12:40 AM
Some useful tips:

On an original finish specimen, the small parts are usually darker than the frame and slide. Also, the FJA stamp, serial number, Ordnance acceptance stamp (behind the right grip), "P" marks, and markings around the triggerguard were all stamped after the thing was parkerized. Under strong magnification you should see where the stamps used to make these marks neatly cut through the finish to leave traces of bare metal inside the markings. Regarding the barrel, an original unit would be marked with an "HS" on the right side of the bottom lug, and with a "P" on the other side of the lug.

Hope this helps.

VG
October 25, 2004, 01:50 AM
I paid $750 for one that is correct and had been owned byt the same man for 40 years so I knew it wasn't doctored. The finish isn't great. So that's in the ballpark if it's as described.

BigG
October 25, 2004, 10:33 AM
You ain't bought it yet?

PS: I (foolishly) sold mine back years ago for $200. :uhoh:

FPrice
October 25, 2004, 10:51 AM
"PS: I (foolishly) sold mine back years ago for $200."

Yeah, I agree, that was not good. But at least you GOT something for yours.

FPrice
October 28, 2004, 12:11 PM
Well, I looked at it again and got 2 pics. From a much closer inspection and with help from the Field Collectors Guide for US Pistols & Revolvers 1909-1945 I believe that this pistol may be original in virtually every aspect. At least every part seems to be period and model correct. The one possible exception may be the thumb safety. The following are my observations and reflect what is on the pistol and what is in the field collectors guide book.

Frame - Has the proper "UNITED STATES PROPERTY M1911A1 U.S. ARMY" on the right side with the serial no stamped below. The "NO." lettering matches the lettering above while the actaul numbers are slightly different. They are a little bit smaller and struck more lightly. And, contrary to my first report (the serial number is not quite "even", that is, not neatly lined up.) the numbers are neat and even. On the left side of the frame is the "FJA" and the "P" in the proper locations.

Slide - The slide has the correct Remington Rand markings on the left hand side and a proof "P" on the top of the slide that matches the "P" on the frame. The rear sight is the square notch appropriate for late 1943 while the front side still has some very faint serrations remaining.

The finish on the slide and frame seems to match although the slide is worn more. Both pieces are in good shape with the wear patterns you would expect from a 60 year old pistol.

Barrel - Is a High Standard Type 18, correct for this time period. The lands and grooves look sharp, as if they have not been used much. The locking lugs on the top of the barrel still have sharp edges.

Grips - Grips are Type 10, in good shape.

All other parts appear to be correct. The thumb safety appears to be the correct type C but looks a tad more "blue" than the rest of the pistol. Possibly a normal variance in small parts color?

Here is the pic.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1320488

VG
October 28, 2004, 03:08 PM
This may be helpful.

Old Fuff
October 28, 2004, 08:31 PM
FPrice:

From what I see this gun looks to be O.K. Post or P.M the serial number and I'll see if I can't find some more specific information.

During 1943 Remington-Rand obtained some safety locks from Colt. This could explain the difference in color. Also see if the serial number starts out with "No." or "NO."

Otherguy Overby
October 28, 2004, 08:40 PM
I just ran across two. One is from 1943 and reportedly has some holster wear but the guy tells me its better than 90 percent condition. I haven't seen it yet, maybe Tuesday. The owner says he's had it for more than 30 years and it's been in either a safe or a safe deposit box all that time.

If it is as reported, what's a high and low price for me to pay?

Several of you have already posted details to look for. Is there anything else someone should look for?

Old Fuff
October 28, 2004, 08:55 PM
I would advise you to make a hard copy of this thread and take it with you when you look at the pistol. Besides the obvious, look for signs that its been refinished. On older guns the serial number starts as "No." on later ones as "NO." These had the serial number stamped after the pistol was finished. If there is Parkerizing in the bottom of all of the numbers be extra careful. It could have happened, but not too likely.

FPrice
October 28, 2004, 09:09 PM
"Is there anything else someone should look for?"

There are a lot of things. Unfortunately it's difficult to distill them down into a post in a thread. The best advice I can give is to invest in a good book which covers the type of firearm you are looking at.

If you were asking about a Smith & Wesson I'd advise you to get "The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" by Jim Supica and Richard Nahas.

If you were interested in Mossbergs it would be "Mossberg, More Gun for the Money" by Vic and Cheryl Havlin.

But for Colt 1911's, 1911A1's and other manufacturer clones it's J. C. Harrison's "U.S. Pistols & Revolvers 1909-1945". This describes in detail all of the variations in the 1911 pistols (and the big-bore revolvers) and shows you what to look for.

Unfortunately many military firearms have been re-built and re-finished, and in the process original parts have been swapped, replaced, and changed. It still should be a good firearm, but it is no longer original and the price such a firearm will command will be reduced.

It is very difficult to assign a price without knowing what condition a gun is in. Even assuming certain things the price will vary from buyer to buyer and seller to seller. High price for a mint 1943 1911A1 could be $1,000.00 or more. Is it worth it? Well, to many people it is because many are paying these prices.

The other, and perhaps better method is to suck up to Old Fuff shamelessly and get in his will. Right now I am in for a 1905 S&W Hand Ejector in .38/200!

Otherguy Overby
October 28, 2004, 10:37 PM
There are a lot of things. Unfortunately it's difficult to distill them down into a post in a thread. The best advice I can give is to invest in a good book which covers the type of firearm you are looking at.

I know that, but I tend to do things backward. :)

I wasn't really looking for collectible firearms. And since oportunities often seem to happen at the wrong time, I'm on the wrong side of the knowledge curve here.

This is the second time I've had to make two mortgage payments at the same time, I really do have to sell the other house. I've had real world things to think about lately, not collectible surprises.

Lastly, I can't think of anywhere in the Ozarks of Arkansas I can come up with a good book on collectible 1911s by next Tuesday.

Old Fuff
October 28, 2004, 11:41 PM
FPrice:

>> The other, and perhaps better method is to suck up to Old Fuff shamelessly and get in his will. Right now I am in for a 1905 S&W Hand Ejector in .38/200! <<

Don't forget that I was willing to include the genuine aftermarket Spanish barrel ...

Some folks don't know when they are well off ... :evil: :D


Otherguy Overby:

If you keep following this thread you will know a lot more about Remington-Rand .45 pistols by next Tuesday then you do now.

BluesBear
October 29, 2004, 08:38 AM
Otherguy Overby,

Do you have to take it or leave it on Tuesday? Do you have access to a good digital camera?

If you have some consideration time on this deal you could take some digital photos and post them here for expert analysis.

If the seller will field strip the pistols for you that would be even better.

As you can see there are some knowledgeable people on the High Road. Once you get back home, you'll probably get a definative answer about those guns in the same amount of time it would take you to look it up for yourself if you had the books.

Otherguy Overby
October 29, 2004, 11:43 AM
I'd like to have enough knowledge to make a decision on the spot, but it now seems unlikely.

The seller was a pawn broker for many years. He tended to keep the best stuff that came through his shop. He shut down years ago and said this one is the best of two he has and it's been tucked away for about 30 years.

I'll also just have to scout other stuff. He liked guns and has LOTS. Needless to say, it would be fun to cherry pick some. Remind me to ask if he has a Singer. :)

I also have to leave here in the middle of November, so much of my time will go to travel prep. I'll probably be gone until sometime in January.

BTW, what's the significance of NO. and No. preceeding the serial number?

as always, thanks!

FPrice
October 29, 2004, 11:59 AM
"Also see if the serial number starts out with "No." or "NO.""

I think you can see it in my pic (my monitor at work is not all THAT good). It's a "NO."

Old Fuff
October 29, 2004, 02:02 PM
As you will soon learn, that's good. I don't think my monitor is any better then the one you have at work. I can't make out any details around the serial number.

BluesBear
October 29, 2004, 05:00 PM
On my four year old Gateway VX700 monitor I can see the NO.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1323109

It is kinda fuzzy though.

dsk
November 3, 2004, 02:24 AM
FPrice, that pistol looks real good and is easily worth the $750 you paid. A dark-colored thumb safety is common. In fact most of the small parts should be noticeably darker than the slide and frame.

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