Create your own weapons (for service use)


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Nightcrawler
February 25, 2003, 07:41 PM
Let's say you're put in charge of developing weapons for a military. You've got a completely clean slate; you're not required to use any existing weapons OR ammunition, and in fact are instructed to develop unique rounds that can't be used by the enemy.

It's completely up to you what types of weapons, what bore diameter, what bullet weights and velocities, what magazine capacities, etc. the military force will have.

What would you pick? What would be your ideal service round? Me, I"d have TWO. I'd have a 6mm intermediate cartridge, giving much better performance than 5.56mm (ideally very close to .243 but in a smaller package) as the standard service cartridge, available in a semiauto rifle with a 17" barrel, and a full auto SAW, also with 17" barrel.

I'd also have a larger, more powerful full rifle round, maybe something as large as 8mm, pushing a 170-200 grain bullet (depending on the load) out to 2500-2900 feet per second. Basically same performance as a hotloaded .30-06. This round would be used in general purpose machine guns and scoped designated marksman rifles.

Just my first idea. What do you think? What would you pick? Don't forget handguns, shotguns, submachine guns, PDWs, GPMGs, heavy machine guns, etc. Use your imagination, but nothing TOO unbelievable. :cool:

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Nightcrawler
February 25, 2003, 08:05 PM
NOTE: All controls on these weapons would be completely ambidextrious.

The 6mm rifle would, as I said, feature a 17" barrel, lightweight polymer or carbon fiber whereever possible, and enough steel linings and such to make it exceptionally rugged. It'd have a barrel just heavy enough to retain accuracy with rapid fire, and no more. It'd likely employ a G36/AR-18 style gas system, and would have a folding stock for ease of storage. I'd have a mounting bracket for quick-detach optics, and would feed from a 25 or 30 round detachable box magazine.

The 6mm SAW would feature a heavy, quick-change 17" barrel and an intergral folding bipod. The bipod would NOT be part of the barrel assembly, but the carry handle would, negating the need for the asbestos glove (ala the FN M249). It would be belt fed, and would load from a 150-200 round belt in a reloadable soft or plastic pouch that attached to the weapon. The plastic boxes the current saw uses are flimsy; the ones on my machine gun would have a better designed attach and release system, allowing for more efficient reloading and less fumbling. The weapon would have the same optics bracket as the rifle.

The 8mm Designated Marksman's Rifle would be an inbetween between the average rifleman and the scout/sniper. It'd be issued one per squad, as a rule. It'd fire my 8mm, full house rifle round, utilizing a variety of ammuntion. It'd have excellent, M14-style iron sights, and intergral, folding bipod, a free-floated 20" barrel for accuracy, and a gas-piston operation for reliability. It would feed from 10 and 20 round detachable box magazines, and would feature a quick-detach 6x rangefinding scope. It'd also be available with more powerful scopes, night vision scopes, etc. Subsonic ammunition and a suppressor could be used for quiet operations. Again, polymers and carbon fiber would be used as much as could be managed, to keep weight down.

blades67
February 25, 2003, 08:12 PM
I don't think there's any need to re-invent the wheel. I'd send the troops to the range for more training with what they're issued.

Yohan
February 25, 2003, 08:14 PM
How about a 1 pistol. Not a .380, not .45, not a .50, but a 1. And the magazine could hold about 80 rounds. And they'd explode *bchhhhhh* and smell like lemons. And they'd also track down glocks and give it a make over. Well, maybe that'd too girly.

Gnull
February 25, 2003, 08:20 PM
Well, I've always liked the Idea of case-less ammunition. You can get more rounds for the same space when you don't have to worry about brass... That and you don't have to worry about casing ejection; one less place to get dirt and muck into... that and the spare rounds can be stacked (the bullet being buried in a block of propellant) which means more rounds for the volume being used (also meaning more rounds in the mag :D )
And the enemy wont be able to use your new-fangled rounds, as they don't even use cases, nor will they even fit in the chambers of their weapons even if they modified them.
Finally, the fact that you don't have to worry about extracting brass means that you can have a vastly increased ROF!

Only real problem would be protecting the rounds from the elements. I think H&K experimented with some kind of lacquer to protect case-less rounds against water and rounds cooking off.

Well, anyone else want to snowball some ideas?

Nightcrawler
February 25, 2003, 08:32 PM
I don't think there's any need to re-invent the wheel. I'd send the troops to the range for more training with what they're issued.

Well, they'd have nothing to do there, since in my scenario, they haven't been issued ANYTHING yet. So, lots of money for range time, no weapons or ammunition.... :o

Yohan
February 25, 2003, 09:00 PM
Gnull- to protect the case-less rounds, how about putting them in a case? :neener:

mgjohn
February 25, 2003, 09:05 PM
Plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

blades67
February 25, 2003, 09:08 PM
:rolleyes:

Mark D
February 25, 2003, 09:23 PM
105 grain, 6.6mmx48mm. 25 round mag standard. FAL-esque gas system. M-16 type bolt. M1A/Garand type iron sights. Provision for optical sight. Semi-Auto only. Standardized rail system for "accessories". 16 inch bbl carbine, 22 inch bbl rifle. Upper receiver/lower receiver layout. Disassembly would be similar or hybrid to M-16 and HK-9X series rifles.

"Special receiver" full-auto/burst model with HK-21 type belt feed, aiming for as much common part use as possible.

Final, "special projects" option: XM-200 Cloaking Device with Lithium-ion/Jello powered reactor.

sixgun_symphony
February 25, 2003, 09:24 PM
I like the idea of caseless ammunition.

HK G-11 was a prototype back in the 80's, I don't know why it was not adopted.

I would go with 6mm projectile and bullpup design. I would have detacheabe scope and night vision with flip up iron sights as back up. A rail would be built in for laser or maglight.

10mm caseless pistol and an SMG for CQC. The SMG will come standard with a built in suppressor and laser. It will have a rail for detacheable maglight.

Nightcrawler
February 25, 2003, 09:28 PM
Well, Blades, you seem to have assumed I was talking about re-equipping the US military. I wasn't. I was wondering where we'd end up if we started from scratch, but knowing what we know now.

If you didn't want to answer the question, you didn't have to reply. :rolleyes:

Schuey2002
February 25, 2003, 09:35 PM
Heck, I'd settle for a HK G36 in 6/7mm if they made one, and if I could actually purchase one..:(

Other than that, I wouldn't change a thing about it and would happily use it as a service rifle. Well, i might also have Trijicon tweak with the optical scope/red dot sight but, that's about it..

goon
February 25, 2003, 09:58 PM
I think that caseless ammo had flaws that they never got worked out. One was that it lost reliability and power when it was wet. The case in conventional ammo also acts as a heatsink that absorbs heat that would otherwise be transferred to the weapon. Someone once pointed out that this could be diminished by adding a coolant to the propellant. Add some sort of combustible waterproof coating and you might have a winner. But you would still need an ejection port in case of a misfire, or you would have to dissassemble the gun to clear it.
Maybe a design where the bullet was hollow with the charge and primer contained in it? That would eliminate the case, and the weight that goes with it.

For cartridges, I would also choose something along the lines of a 6mm bore, with a short casing. Sniper/ GPMG round would be a full power 28 caliber bore firing a long boattail bullet for better BC.
Get that ball doing around 3000 fps and you should have a flat shooting bullet that still has some smack when it gets there.
Of course, the rounds that they have been using for the last 30 years seem to have done just fine.

The guns themselves would make extensive use of stamped heavy sheetmetal and polymers, in order to keep costs down and to cut weight.

I have often thought that it would be cool to build an SMG along those lines. It would use a small caliber round doing about 2200 fps. The gun would be simply made with sheetmetal stampings, welds, rivets, and polymer furniture. They would have sights that would allow them to be fired accurately up to 250M.
Can't be done legally, at least not by me, but it would still be cool.

BigJake_old
February 25, 2003, 10:28 PM
I duno enough about guns to even start sugjesting about building a new one, however, the first dang thing i'd demand would be simplicity. something that breaks so rarely that its more of a shock than commonplace. That would mean no friggin electronic weapons like that one thing they (the mil) currently is developing, that assualt rifle with the GPS locator, helmet mounted HUD interface, none of that BS. Spend more money on training the troops and they won't need computers to run the skill end of it for em! maybe they should just bring back the garand....

beemerb
February 25, 2003, 11:50 PM
sixgun_symphony
From what I read the HK G-11 was adopted by the west German military.Then the wall came down and the west germans had all they could do just to support the east Germans.No money left for a new rifle.
Even with no restrictions I think I would adopt a AR 10 in 243.Stardard weapon and then a target version(scoped) for a sharpshooter.A La Germany WW 2.Sniper would have like a 338 or the 50 they are using now.
Bob

Coffee357
February 25, 2003, 11:58 PM
Maybe I'm not original enough but I would tend to go with a FAL in .243 (or a similar cartridge) with ambi safeties and a case deflector. I would use the charging handle with FA capabilities and a full length rail system on top. I would extend the front sight to near the end of the barrel to take maximum advantage of the sight radius offered by barrel length and would probably extend the forend and rails out to the end to give a longer accessory base. I might experiment with polymer recievers and magazines to keep weight down and I would work on moving the safety to a little more ergonimic position. The SAW would be a belt or box fed variant (Like the current SAW) in the same caliber.
Semi-auto should be sufficient for general issue with training stepped up for more proficient use. That would be about it for the rifle.

For the handgun I would probably issue a basic .357 revolver based on the fixed sight GP-100. Manufacturing tolerances would be held to tighter standards so that parts would actually interchange between weapons. A single stack 9mm would be an acceptable alternative (handguns are, after all, a secondary weapon). Both these weapons would be more suitable for those
with small hands than the currently issued weapons - an important consideration when so many of our support personel
are female and when handguns tend to be the only weapon issued to support groups. A folding stock m-1 carbine with a synthetic stock or an m-4 would probably still find a home for rear area personel.

For shotgun - pick any of the standard pump action shotguns with ghost ring sights and stick with it. I like the 870 for its steel frame durability.

All I can think of!

Coffee

UnknownSailor
February 26, 2003, 12:12 AM
I have lots of ideas for this "fantasy" scenario:

1. Re-open/re-aquire all the ammunition plants closed/sold off in the last 20 years. We're gonna need em for all the ammo I want to get.

2. Ditch or modify the M-16. Specifically, loose the direct gas system, in favor of an operating rod. Keep the propellant gasses in the barrel, where they belong. Think Galil.

3. Loose the 5.56 NATO round, in favor of something in the 6mm-6.5mm range.

4. Convert all M249 to fire this new round, and loose the magazine firing capability.

5. All M9's to be sold off as surplus. Procure 1911 .45 pistols as replacements.

6. All military will qualify with both the pistol and rifle at least once a quarter. We will have usefull small arms instruction again. :mad: (see #1)

7. Lengthen boot camp one week, and use the extra week solely for small arms instruction (Navy especially).

jsalcedo
February 26, 2003, 01:49 AM
A carbine with a 16 inch barrel built around the HK94
action chambered in 50AE with Semi and Full auto capabilities
built with high strength polymers and whatever flavor of unobtanium is available at the time.

A HK SOCOM MK23 chambered in the same 50AE

That would probably take care of things out to 400 yards or so.

For a snipers rifle It would have to be a 577 tyrannosaur.
loaded with frangible 450grain hollowpoints to a velocity of 3300fps.

(Maybe not the most efficient but think of how the enemy morale would deteriorate as one of their buddies were suddenly blown in half and eviscerated from 600 yards)

Fot the submachine gun/PDW I would issue MAC 10s in hip holsters chambered to fire the new 450 autobond (100 grain frangible 2300fps)

ahadams
February 26, 2003, 01:52 AM
as a terminally left handed person (watching me try to shoot right handed is a sight best kept from small children and impressionable adults) I have to say that while ambidextrous controls would be nice what would be a whole lot nicer would be ambidextrous ejection ports! there is nothing that messes up your sight picture quite like having hot brass dumped down the inside of your shirt! having it whizz past your right eye isn't exactly good for concentration either. This isn't brain surgery, either - the Steyr Aug is capable of left handed operation, as I believe are some of the other bullpup designs floating around. I don't care if the end result is a bullpup but having the ability to eject brass the other way would be a big plus for the 11 percent or so of us who are lefties!

Tamara
February 26, 2003, 02:00 AM
How about a 1 pistol. Not a .380, not .45, not a .50, but a 1. And the magazine could hold about 80 rounds. And they'd explode *bchhhhhh* and smell like lemons. And they'd also track down glocks and give it a make over. Well, maybe that'd too girly.

You might want to double check and make sure that's really oregano on your pizza... ;)

Deadman
February 26, 2003, 07:51 AM
I'd make an assault rifle (most likely a bullpup) with a damned strong, reliable reciever, that can quickly take barrels of different length/style. Ie in the same fashion as how the Steyr Aug can use different barrels with literally the flick of a switch.

Have a 16 inch barrel for SF/CQ, a standard 20 inch barrel and a heavy 20 inch barrel for employment as a light machine gun (making sure that the heavy barrel is up to the task of being employed as an lmg). Hell even the standard 20 inch barrel should be up to the task of sustained rapid fire.

Chamber it in 6mmPPC or similar, probably 75grns with a muzzle velocity around 3000fps.

30 round mags for use with the 16 and 20 inch barrel, and a Beta-C type mag for the lmg barrel.

Give it a 2x or 2.5x 'scout' scope type setup.


So within a 10 man infantary unit, 8 would have the standard 20 inch barrel and the other 2 would have 2 heavy barrels each for the squads lmg's. Throw in 3 M203 type launchers, 2 for the 2 guys on point and one for the squad leader.

TechBrute
February 26, 2003, 12:41 PM
I'm haven't narrowed down the list of what it "would" have, but I can tell you what it "wouldn't" have:

Burst feature: Bad, bad idea from penny pinching accountants. I could start a whole new thread on why this is a bad idea.

Small bullets: I think the military was better off with the Garand than the M16 line. Don't get me started on 9mm, either...

Of course my mind went blank with all my great ideas as soon as I started typing. Maybe I'll remember them later. :banghead:

Joe Demko
February 26, 2003, 01:03 PM
No need to get crazy. For a general issue weapon, an AK variant manufactured with higher quality materials and greater attention to details than was the rule in the Soviet bloc. I'd also modify it to have better quality sights, a halfway decent trigger, and fire a 6mm cartridge. 6mmx39R should work just fine.
Likewise, the SAW is a good weapon. It is the cartridge that needs improvement more than the gun.
Handguns are so unimportant that I see no reason to design anything new at all. Any off the shelf gun from Glock/HK/Beretta/et. al. in the chosen caliber should serve.

bogie
February 26, 2003, 02:53 PM
I'd like to see a "light-heavy" machinegun in a cartridge similar to the .338 Lapua. Might need to add a little bit more taper to the case tho for reliability. Greater effective range/penetration than a .308, in a lighter and smaller package, with the added result of being able to have 2-3x the ammo available.

Full auto crewfed shotguns would also be interesting - not a lot of range, but would be effective in the face of your basic human wave assault.

Miniature miniguns - .22LR would allow one to have a LOT of ammo available, and would allow a significant amount of suppressive fire (hey, you hear somethin' whizzin' by overhead, you ain't gonna stick your head up to see if it is a .22LR or a .223...).

bogie
February 26, 2003, 03:08 PM
FWIW, the cartridge being used should have a good taper to it for reliability in feeding. The 6PPC, while being a highly accurate cartridge, isn't really suited to this purpose. I like the .223, the .220 Russian, the 7.62x39, etc...

Personally, since folks will need to hump that ammo, I'd go in the reverse of a few folks, and introduce some .223 35 or 40 grain loads into the system...

BigJake_old
February 26, 2003, 03:08 PM
i'm diggin the crew-shotgun and that .22 minigun, .22 aint as potent as most, but you're right, it'll still keep they're heads down, and if it hits you it still hurts *looks at scar from childhood*

Frohickey
February 26, 2003, 03:57 PM
I would have to say the Galactic Empire's patented DeathStar?. Though, I would have to wait until the patent expires, or if the Galactic Empire is willing to license the patent to me. If so, I would put in some improvements, such as making sure all thermal exhaust ports are sealed when there are enemy spacecraft present. I would also make sure all imperial stormtrooper's uniforms be in pink, since that is the color that my behaviorists tell me relaxes the enemy. :D

If I can't have that, I think I'll just have to license the Genesis device from the United Federation of Planets. I bet there are a few Tribble-infested planets that I could find. Lets see if Golgo-13 and other 'varminting-is-okay-as-long-as-you-are-not-having-fun' can stop me. :neener:

duck hunt
February 26, 2003, 05:59 PM
A bull-pup configuration G-36 with an 18 inch smoothbore fluted barrel. It would be chambered for a cartridge using the 5.56mm NATO case but a 45grn jacketed steel slug that is fin-stabilised.

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