[Drizzt]

Officer Could Be Charged For Killing Alleged Burglar
Policeman Fired 15 Shots At Suspect, Officials Say

POSTED: 6:42 p.m. EST February 24, 2003

CLEVELAND -- Charges could be filed against a Cleveland police officer accused of shooting and killing an alleged burglar while off duty.

NewsChannel5 reported that the incident happened in front of Officer James Toomey's home last June.

Prosecutors said Joseph Finley Jr. first attacked Toomey.

Chief Assistant Prosecutor Sanford Watson said that while the shooting was justified, a grand jury should be called in to determine whether Toomey used excessive force.

"Officer Toomey fired 15 shots from his gun; 14 wounds (were) sustained," Watson said. "We believe that was excessive."

The Cleveland Patrolmans' Union said it's disappointed with the ruling and that Toomey fired his gun in self-defense.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2001270/detail.html

now, if that was 14 hits COM, maybe it was excessive, but how many of the hits were actually debilitating?

[tetchaje1]

now, if that was 14 hits COM, maybe it was excessive, but how many of the hits were actually debilitating?

Even if it was 14 hits COM, it might not be excessive. There are several documented shootings with 155gr 40S&W rounds that took more than 11 rounds to put the BG down -- all COM. If the officer feared for his life, then he should be cleared of the shooting.

And let us not forget who started the whole thing in the first place. If the burglar hadn't been burgling, he would be alive right now.

Punish the criminals, not police officers and law-abiding citizens. :barf:

[Sarge]

at least he beat the national average for hit percentages.

[El Tejon]

tetch, but what if the police officer is a criminal? What then?

This is why we have grand juries. Problem #2 never goes away despite our "best intentions" or ignorance of it.

Anyone in Ohio know if this is a bluff/trap for the copper? Can the PA still file if g.j. no bills??? Mike?

[DeltaElite]

Sounds silly to me, how can you have excessive lethal force?
If the guy wasn't down or stopped, then the shooting can continue, that is how cops are trained.
If the burglar was down, then the cop is in big trouble.

Damn good shooting BTW.

[Greg L]

:fire:

I think that the prosecuters office should be made to take a little field trip to "x" (Clevelanders help me out here) area of town at 10:00 on a Friday night. We'll make it a 6 hour trip just to make things interesting. Oh and they have to be dressed in their usual court attire. Any police that happen by during their stay in the area are only allowed to fire 1 shot in their defense if the officer thinks that it is justified.

OTOH I must congratulate Officer Toomey on his 93.3333% hit ratio. Either it was at contact range or he is one of the good ones that actually practices on a regular basis. :D Would the @#%$* prosecuters be happier if he fired 15 shots and only hit with 2?

We need to bring back tar and feathering and running someone out of town on a rail.

Greg

[El Tejon]

Greg, in some jurisdictions case law holds that if more than one shot is fired then the trial court, upon its discretion, may withhold the self-defense jury instruction. Darn that Problem #2--they don't mention this in the gun shoppe!

BTW, what makes you think that prosecutors do not carry?:confused:

Delta, just because you learned from your baron in knight skul to keep whacking the serf, does not mean the marquis will agree that you are following the king's command. Just following orders may or may not work.

[Tim Burke]

If the guy was down, yeah, he might have a problem with this. At close range, though, this may represent just a few seconds of shooting. If he was upright, and the first shot was justified, it is unlikely I'd be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the last shot wasn't justified.

[El Tejon]

Tim, g.j. does not need brd.

[DeltaElite]

It does where I am El Tejon.
We had an officer shoot a guy 13 times before the guy went down.
Never went to a Grand Jury, the DA was at the scene, as they do on all Homicides in my area and there was nothing for the legal system to address.
The family wanted to file a civil suit, but couldn't find an attorney to take it. Seems even that a guy shooting at people that gets shot 13 times by the po-po doesn't have much jury appeal. :D
I really feel sorry for everyone that lives in the states that prosecute any citizen for a self defense shooting. It's a real shame.

BTW, the officer hit him 13 out of 15 shots as the bad guy was moving towards more potential victims.
Damn good shooting.

[braindead0]

Damn good shooting, in particular..for Cleveland. The g.j. issue brings up a whole nother bag of poo, in theory I think a g.j. should be convened for this.. but.... As I understand it they are put together by appointment, and that is bad...bad...:barf:

[Greg L]

BTW, what makes you think that prosecutors do not carry?

In Ohio?!? If they do then it really does get into the us/them argument.

(Although I must admit the scenario I gave would be a perfect example of Ohio's affirmative defense law :D )

Greg

[El Tejon]

Why would you think that Buckeye (or any other) prosecutors would not carry? Are they not LEOs? Is not the Buckeye PA the CLEO of each county? "Us/them", is not the PA the marquis to our serfdom?

Delta, your marquis apparently made a point to understand what happened. Good for your parish.

It does not happen like that everywhere or every time where you are. Of course, the tilecrawler cry "it depends" holds here. Another marquis, another witness, another . . . it depends. For some reason I hear "that can't happen to me [or here] a lot".:D

[OF]

Shoot until the threat is ended. If this guy was on the ground bleeding out and begging for mercy when the cop put the last 10 rounds into him, he's got some serious trouble.

If the cop was pulling the trigger until the bad guy dropped from his sight picture, well, that's what I'd do.

- Gabe

[TheeBadOne]

If the cop was pulling the trigger until the bad guy dropped from his sight picture, well, that's what I'd do.
Yup

[Selfdfenz]

If training doctrine in the officer's department is DT or more rounds COM that doctrine will be made evident to the GJ. As long as the BG didn't take the hits while on his back, the officer is off the hook either way. Also, in a panic situation it might not take forever to emply a magazine if the shooter could not determine the shots were having any effect or even hitting the target.

S-

[Baba Louie]

What Caliber?

What range?

Any witnesses watching?

Was victim (sic) (BG) down supine and imobile w/ rounds still coming in?

Time frame for 14 rounds?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Hope Officer gets a clean bill and someone else pays for his legal expense.

(Note to self...Avoid Cleveland, Change that, Avoid Ohio)

Adios

[Erik]

Lethal force is just that, and usually defined by law, be it one round or more.

On the same train of thought, a good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of how much shooting.

[Zander]

"Chief Assistant Prosecutor Sanford Watson said that while the shooting was justified, a grand jury should be called in to determine whether Toomey used excessive force."Nothing like trying to keep your political aspirations alive, eh?

[Sarge]

just SOP for homicides where the GJ is seated.

[Azrael256]

Um... charged with what?

[Matthew Courtney]

It takes an alert observant person under optimal conditions 1.5 to 2.5 seconds to visually observe something and make physical adjustments which account for their most recent observation.

Most folks can fire 15 rounds from a semi-auto in 3-5 seconds. Under stress it is much more difficult to rapidly process observations and adjust responses. Failure to do so when another person has by their own aggressive acts directly caused the stressful situation is not unreasonable.

Start shooting when you reasonably feel threatened. Stop shooting when you *KNOW* that they are no longer a threat. Everything that happens in between is on them.

"He should have known the decedant was about to put down the Knife..." is never going to work in a free society.

That said, the proper forum to determine how to procede in these situations is a Grand Jury.

Amendment V - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[Tim Burke]

g.j. does not need brd.No, they don't. They don't administer any punishment, either. And, IIRC, the defendant doesn't get to present a defense.
Didn't some prosecutor boast once that he could get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich?
I see the Grand Jury solely as the vehicle that the Prosecutor uses to bring charges, or to justify not bringing charges. The jury that matters is the trial jury.

[El Tejon]

Az, the g.j. can look at everything pitched--from murder, manslaughter, battery with a deadly weapon, criminal recklessness with a deadly weapon, et al.

Matthew, g.j.s may not apply in state prosecutions. The g.j. has not yet been incorporated to the states. Thus, prosecutors, in some states (don't know if they can in Ohio), can skip the g.j. and just file the information (the charges) against the officer.

Tim, while the petit jury may be final (maybe not), if I were the officer I would prefer a no bill from the g.j. rather than get to trial. Avoidance is best.

More I hear about this, more I believe the "had it coming" theory will prevail in the g.j. room. Of course, there's the civil suit which may come.:scrutiny:

[Double Naught Spy]

This sort of article really bothers me. The off duty officer was NOT shooting a burglar. He was shooting his attacker who was apparently discovered while effecting the burglary. To classify the bad guy as a burglar is to downplay the apparent fact that he attacked the officer. In other words, the officer was not shooting the guy to stop him from stealing property, but in an act to defend his own life.

The officer and his lawyer should have NO problems finding dozens of examples of failure to stop by bad guys who needed to be shot multiple times.

Prosecutor, "Officer Toomey, why did you shoot at this man 15 times?"

Officer Toomey, "Because the first 14 shots didn't stop his assault on me and I was in fear for me life."

Prosecutor, "Officer Toomey, why did you shoot this man only 15 times and not 16?"

Officer Toomey, "I ran out of ammo."

[Carlos Cabeza]

Well I'd call that damn good shootin'..........Cowboy.:D
with a Glock no less !!!! J/K..:D

[Ebbtide]

According to the whole story (gathered from the paper and the local news), it was at night, the BG was breaking into the detached garage, the cop heard a noise, got up... and the rest is history. No weapons were found on BG. Also, it was reported that the BG was not even on the property when shot (the garage butted up against an alley).

There have been too many unjustified and questionable police shootings here in the Big Plum. It is a problem and it looks like this policeman and another who is currently charged criminally, will be the examples.

It is getting lkike L.A. here and I don't see it getting any better.

I think that the prosecuters office should be made to take a little field trip to "x" (Clevelanders help me out here) area of town at 10:00 on a Friday night.

Your pick, the whole city (and most inner ring suburbs) is a turd hole at 10:00 on a friday night. The BG was obviously a dumb one. We Clevelanders stoped storing anything worth stealing in garages 25 years ago.

[Blackhawk]

The way I see it is: Good shoot, and good shooting.

[Tall Man]

Double Naught got close. Here's the rest:

If the homeowner was indeed home, then he wasn't being burgled. In this instance, the burgler is now a robber, or at least a trespasser. That he was an attacker also does not diminish his concurrent classification.

So, "Alleged Burgler" is way off base. A more accurate description of the deceased would be "intruder".

Tall Man

[jimpeel]

Sounds to me like he reverted to his training to empty his weapon to place the prepetrator in the maximum fear of his safety and thus disallow him a fearless response.

[Double Naught Spy]

Of course, one of the benefits is that this bad guy will not learn from his mistake and go on to be better prepared to burgle, rob, attack, harm, or otherwise abuse some other human being.

Don't get me wrong, not all bad guys need to be shot. But if they are engaged in a crime that turns violent, it was their gamble and some simply lose.

[DeltaElite]

Don't get me wrong, not all bad guys need to be shot.

Sure they do. OOPS, did I say that out loud? :evil:

[TexasVet]

There is another point to the law in many juristictions. If any of the first shots can be considered "fatal" shots, then ALL the subsequent shots literally don't count.

[Coronach]

El Tejon:

Anyone in Ohio know if this is a bluff/trap for the copper?OK, you lost me.Can the PA still file if g.j. no bills??? Mike?AFAIK, yes. Its generally considered bad form, old boy, but it can be done. If the prosecutor is going forward with this, it is possible that there is More To This Story Than What We Have Before Us...or the DA is a ninny, one or the other. *shrug* OR...they are in CYA mode and want to avoid the appearance of impropriety and will present it to the GJ just to wash their hands of it. Though if that was the case, why is the Assistant Prosecutor making those statements? Hmmmm....

FWIW, our policy is that shootings by LEOs are presented to the prosecutor who may (his option) present it to the GJ. They usually do, I think, just to avoid any appearance of impropriety.

BTW, what makes you think that prosecutors do not carry?In The Buckeye Empire CCW is restricted to sworn Knights of the Realm, referred to by the uncouth name of 'Peace Officers.' Peace Officers have to go through the state-mandated training course and be actual LEOs. Prosecutors are not Knights of the Realm. ;) They might carry, but they'd be staking their job on Ye Olde Affirmative Defense. And more than one prosecutor has peeved and aggrieved his Loyal Knights often enough that they would not suffer a felony to be commited by said Tilecrawler on their lands. In short, it would be a bad idea indeed, and a probable avenue to the wonderful land of government largesse (aka, unemployment).


Why would you think that Buckeye (or any other) prosecutors would not carry? Are they not LEOs? Is not the Buckeye PA the CLEO of each county? "Us/them", is not the PA the marquis to our serfdom?Indeed they are, but they are not sworn peace officers, so if they do carry, it would have to be openly. Or illegally :D

I agree...good shooting. I want to know more 411 before I make a decision as to the propriety of the shoot, however. Something is amiss here, but it could have zilch to do with Toomey.

Mike

[Leadbutt]

You know the crying shame is crap like this,is brought up in the training acdemys around the country and new officers take this to heart and some will end up dead,due to the fact that they are just to scared to pull a weapon and use it when the should

[El Tejon]

Mike, thanks much. Of course, do not deal at all with Ohio law. But that is shocking. How did the marquis cut themselves out like that, geez?

bluff/trap=call grand jury, doubledog dare the copper to take the stand, copper goes into g.j. room with his attorney present (can still do the shuffle) and runs his mouth instead of taking 5, PA has pre-trial statement to hang copper with and files charges despite what g.j. sez. Just asking whether something like that would be possible over there or not.

[Coronach]

Ah, I see. Generally the Popo, being equipped with non-defective counsel, keep their yaps shut at GJ stage. I think. Haven't been there, thank God, myself.

And I'm not sure how the prosecutors allowed themselves to be excluded from the CCW situation. Maybe they honestly believe Guns Are Bad.

Mike

[dance varmint]

Aside from this cop's legal problem, does anyone else question the tactic of 14/15 shots to COM, as we seem to understand it from the sketchy facts? Why not use the zipper approach? I'd prefer to be up to his head by shot 5. There isn't time to mess around. The perp obviously would have died either way, but I'd rather stop him faster.

[El Tejon]

Mike, good to know that po-po are paying attention. "What's the best thing to say? NOTHING!":D

I cannot imagine how the marquis failed to allow themselves to be disarmed like common serfs. Maybe the Ohio Association of Marquis needs a new legislative director?:confused:

IME, lots of shots that "hit"=lots of edgers or plastic, fantastic tissue.

[Double Naught Spy]

dance varmint, the 'zipper' approach is really a machine gun technique. Had it been artillary, the suggestion would have been that he 'walk it in' to the head. Either way, you are assuming that the head is readily available and that may not have been the case. Ideally, you shoot what is most destructive to the bad guy that he had made available to you while trying to keep errant rounds down to a minimum. It can be a lot easier to hit a moving body than a moving head and with every round fired being your responsibility, sustained fire on the body may be the best tactic given the situation. It may be that the shots were all fired while the two were grappling and hence no chance of shooting the head was presented. If you try zippering or walking it in to the head while you are tied up with the guy, then you may be zippering or walking across yourself on the way to the guy's head.

Of course we know from the SEALs thread, all that was need was 2 to the heart and one to the head, if the cop had been a seal anyway.

[12.7x99mm]

hit 14 times?

Oh man I bet that guy was feeling the pain!

maybe he was jacked up on something?

I bet he wasnt pretty after that.