[fiVe]

Let us all take notice and be vigilant....


Ayoob Article on BackWoodsHome.com (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob90.html)

[R.H. Lee]

Exactly correct.

[critter]

VERY good indeed!

[ALS]

What the problem is most 90% of the population thinks that their Government or local police dept is going to protect them. Heck I wouldn't bet my life on that one. If the SHTF at least I know I out gun every one in the county including the SWAT team. So at least I will be responsible for my own protection and my families. At least the local LE can worry about everyone elses safety. I don't need them to protect me. I would say almost every one on this board feels that same way as me.

[Nippy]

Yep you and all the anti-govnt peeps

[Skunkabilly]

If the SHTF at least I know I out gun every one in the county including the SWAT team. ...[snip]...I would say almost every one on this board feels that same way as me.

Nope. Even if you outshoot them, you're still outgunned and outnumbered. I tried it and my luck ran out, and got some welts for it.

[Jmurman]

good article!

[ALS]

Sorry Nippy
Quote:"Yep you and all the anti-govnt peeps"

Wrong guy I have trained with SWAT, SRT, SRU, ESU officers what ever they want to call themselves and Federal employees (DIA, DEA, State Dept, Customs, FBI) at various shooting schools and have many of those guys as friends. In two weeks I'll be on the range with some Marines for a long weekend of shooting. I am in no way some Militia nut case or they wouldn't let me on the base.
I guess when you live in a Communist State (Ca.) Nippy you think anyone that doesn't think like you and your neighbors is a Right wing anti Government nut. All I said is I don't need them to protect me. I'm not worried about the Government. I'm worried about the low lifes and average scumbags taking advantage of a bad situation. Remember the LA riots after Rodney King?

[Phil Ca]

I was just now looking at a video of the LA Riots and how ineffective the police were in supressing the problem. There were some police officers that managed to get their act together but the brass seemed to be less than willing to deal with the problem.

When the Cal State NG came on the scene they neglected to bring ammunition initially. The officer in charge said he was not told to bring any ammo.

When I went to Vietnam we were not issued any ammo prior to landing and only a few of us were armed with handguns. One person brought a box of .308 ammo for his M14 just in case. We were not issued any ammo for over two weeks and even had several shake-down inspections on the order of the CO. The searchers were not very through aand no ammo or firearms were found.

If there is a repeat in the future such as after the elections I believe we will see the "Iron Fist" techniques as opposed to the "Velvet Glove" treatment. My advice would be to have enough food and water and personal meds and pet food to last you a week or so if you were unable to venture out. Sheltering in place is better than going to the store for needed supplies and finding yourself in a battle zone. If you need to keep your kids out of school after the election due to unrest, by all means do so!

After all it was the wife of the 'Veep Hopeful' that said that "there would probably not be any riots if Kerry won the election" (Not quoted exactly, but close)

[mainmech48]

Once again, Mr. Ayoob defines the real role of an armed civilian populace in defending our way of life from enemies both foreign and domestic clearly and concisely.

Let's hone those skills, folks. We all may have a lot more riding on them than just our own Personal Favorite Behinds.

[Nathanael_Greene]

Amen, mainmech.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well and I would say that Mr. Ayoob has once again defined things incorrectly. The scenario was two guys with AK47s. You just gotta love naive comments like this..."The citizens of Israel have proven that you don’t need exotic counter-terrorist equipment to deal with scumbags who open fire on the innocent....Frankly, the good old-fashioned six-shooter will probably do well enough."

Yep, that is just what I want to have when I go up against two guys with AK47s.

Funny thing, whenever I read about LEOs going up against full auto weapons, or LEOs armed with pistols going up against one or two bad guys with semi-auto long guns, they seem to think they are being severely outgunned. Certainly not terrorists, but the LAPD community had a hell of a time going up against just two guys with full auto guns and the FBI in Miami in 1986 had trouble going up against two guys, one with a Mini 14 and the other with a shotgun (soon dispatched, so then just up against one guy for the majority of the fight who had the Mini 14 and who killed several agents).

Ayoob is really playing on a lot of hype here. Sure, we all need to be prepared, but the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of us will never encounter a terrorist, much less have a chance to fight one. It is somewhat akin to the anthrax scare right after 9/11/01. Five people died, but law enforcement and the public over reacted to the threat and scared a lot of people. Five deaths are tragic, but we get the same thing over just one weekend in Dallas due to traffic and violent acts.

The majority of America would be much better off preparing themselves for normal day-to-day interpersonal violence that might occur such as your normal muggings, auto hijacking, rapes, home invasions, etc. As regular citizens, we don't so much need to be vigilant against terrorists as much as we do against all threats and whether the threat be a mugger or a terrorist, situational awareness will help us to survive. A six shooter is likely to work out a little better against your neighborhood crackhead thug over a team of AK47 spraying terrorists.

We are all hopped up on the notion that terrorist are darker-skinned folks such as Arabs and the like, but fail to realize that good old fashioned anglos have committed some terrible acts as well, such as the OKC bombing.

Looking out for terrorist activity by the average citizen is a little silly and it puts the focus on the wrong aspects. Ayoob enjoys playing up the hype and sensationalizing things. We will spend our whole lives looking for such things and not see a thing. We need take notice of our situations and identify danger signs, regardless of whether it is by crackheads, terrorists, or a spouse.

[Safety First]

I just read that article before seeing your post, and as usual I enjoyed the read, I for one enjoy and learn from him when I read his articles....

[ceetee]

Hey, Double Naught, I think what he was suggesting was if we had the majority of regular folks over here armed and interested in looking out fo rthe welfare of the country, then a couple of guys with AK 47's still wouldn't be enough to do much harm.





What I really want to know is:





Can I move in next door to ALS?

[ALS]

Funny you should ask I have had a more than a few shooters at the range over the years ask if I was interested in moving next door to them. You know the story the neighbors house is up for sale and they want another gun fancier living next door. Usually happens when I have my M1A or HK-91 at the range with me. I have had a few guys at the Gun Club ask if I would put their names in my will for the passing on of my gun collection to them.

[Mulliga]

Funny thing, whenever I read about LEOs going up against full auto weapons, or LEOs armed with pistols going up against one or two bad guys with semi-auto long guns, they seem to think they are being severely outgunned. Certainly not terrorists, but the LAPD community had a hell of a time going up against just two guys with full auto guns and the FBI in Miami in 1986 had trouble going up against two guys, one with a Mini 14 and the other with a shotgun (soon dispatched, so then just up against one guy for the majority of the fight who had the Mini 14 and who killed several agents).

Double Naught, I'll agree with you that the threat of terrorism is sometimes overhyped. But I think Ayoob is right when he says a revolver can stop a thug with an AK.

The typical scenario for these kinds of spree killings is that the killer opens up on a bunch of people at close range. I'm not any kind of soldier, but I'd think that at that close of a range, a good .357 loaded with hollowpoints is probably just as effective on a single target as an AK.

[JimJD]

Great piece.
Maybe that one should be sent off to some of those in our government who just don't understand.
I do believe I will be sending that one off to a good friend I have back in NYC.
Maybe it will open His eyes to something I've been trying to tell Him about for the past ten years.
Thank You Mr Ayoob.

[Trebor]

Good article. While I wouldn't want to have to go against any sort of "active shooter" (whatever their motivation) with just a handgun; odds are that a handgun is all I'd have available at the crisis.

The more armed citizens in public, the greater the chance that someone will be in the right place at the right time to stop a shooter.

[Ryder]

Be vigilant for who? I didn't see any mug shots. Be lucky is more like it.

[M2 Carbine]

Phil Ca

I was just now looking at a video of the LA Riots and how ineffective the police were in supressing the problem. There were some police officers that managed to get their act together but the brass seemed to be less than willing to deal with the problem.

When the Cal State NG came on the scene they neglected to bring ammunition initially. The officer in charge said he was not told to bring any ammo.
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If the riots in the future are anything like the past riots the hands of the police and NG will be tied by the politicians.

Can't take a chance of hurting a "voter".

During the Maryland riots my Baltimore, MD police officer friends were ordered to EMPTY their 38 revolvers. I told them they were idiots, but they had no choice.

I was a NG Warrant Officer helicopter pilot, in a unit just outside of Baltimore.

I was ordered to go to Cambridge, MD where there were riots, they were short on NG Platoon Leaders.
I said OK, should I draw a 45 and ammo or can I carry my own 1911 or Carbine and ammo and what ammo should I draw for the troops?

They said draw a 45 but NO ammo. No one can have ammo.

I said BS, no way am I going out in the middle of a riot with an empty 45 and no way am I putting anyone on the street with an empty rifle.
I've got plenty of 45, 30.06 (M1) and Carbine ammo at home and I'll give them that if need be.

The CO decided I wasn't really needed as a Platoon Leader.:)
They wouldn't even let me fly over the looters. Afraid something heavy might fall from the helicopter. :D


Two of my brothers in the NG were in Cambridge with empty Carbines and almost got hurt.:(


My mother and a couple other ladies were working in a Drug Store when two young Baltimore policeman came in.
They said, What in the hell are you doing here, don't you know there's a riot out there?
My mother said, the owner said they had to work to clean up some earlier riot damage and the owner wasn't there.

My mother told me one of them asked if they had a gun in the store and did anyone know how to use it?
She told him there was a 38 and her son taught her how to shoot.

He told her if any looters came through the door kill them.
He said, I'm serious these people will hurt you.

He gave her his name and badge number and said, if you have to shoot any one don't worry about it, you won't get in any trouble.
You call for only me and I'll take care of it, he won't be found around here.

The police were getting pretty disgusted.:mad:

[cracked butt]

Funny thing, whenever I read about LEOs going up against full auto weapons, or LEOs armed with pistols going up against one or two bad guys with semi-auto long guns, they seem to think they are being severely outgunned. Certainly not terrorists, but the LAPD community had a hell of a time going up against just two guys with full auto guns and the FBI in Miami in 1986 had trouble going up against two guys, one with a Mini 14 and the other with a shotgun (soon dispatched, so then just up against one guy for the majority of the fight who had the Mini 14 and who killed several agents)

But Ayoob was also mentioning that future attacks could and are likely to happen in the heartland. Think lots of pickup trucks with a winchester 30-30 or a Remington 760 30-06 behind the seat. Good old boys believe in using enough gun:evil:

A six shooter is likely to work out a little better against your neighborhood crackhead thug over a team of AK47 spraying terrorists.

I agree, but its still alot better than a sharp pointy stick.

otherwise good points.

[jrhead75]

Yep, that is just what I want to have when I go up against two guys with AK47s. So, are you figuring that the next disgruntled employee/terrorist/wacko/rioter/whatever that plans an AK-47 rampage is going to consult with you beforehand so that you can show up properly armed? Or are you saying that we should all be slinging our favorite MBRs whenever we go into the local mall?

I don't know many folks that would want to go up against a couple of AK wielders with anything short of .50 cal equipped LAV, but I think the point that Mr Ayoob makes, and makes admirably, is that a few people carrying (and proficient with) handguns have a better chance at putting an early end to the proceedings than an unarmed herd milling about in panic.

[Hatton7]

Great reading!!! When did he write that article.

[Ky Larry]

In the event I run into a terrorist, a mugger, or a disgruntled postal worker,I hope I will be armed with my AK-47,my Winchester 1300 Defender,my Remington 700 .30-06, and my Kimber .45 ACP. However, I'll probably just have my Kimber. Training and mindset will be the same. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[Trebor]

That's the thing about CCW. A pistol is never the optimum weapon, but it is the weapon we can easily and legally carry and it is the most likely weapon we'll have handy when needed. It would be great to be able to carry around a rifle, but it's not practical on an everyday basis and not legal in many areas.

[Hot brass]

Very nice read.

[artherd]

I put both of my rifles on my CCW permit app :)

[SapperLeader]

Good article, and some very intersting responses. While I dont think a handgun is my first choice for confronting a crackhead mugger or ak weilding terrorists, it sure beats cowering behind concealment(hopefully cover but there is precious little of it in cities). I too believe that the chances of any of us encountering a terrorist are small, but i do believe that domestic terrorist actions are probable in the future. I dont believe we have no chance agaisn them if we do encounter some terrorists. Most of these terrorists have little training, and the common weapon of choice seems to be a rifle without stock, or the stock folded down. They then spray the area down with fire. I do beleive a off duty leo or armed citizen has a very good chance of stopping this kind of attack, even if they are "under armed". I would be more worried if I ran into the LA Bank robbers, who seemed to ahve some skill, and wore body armor. In that kind of attack, I do beleive long arms would be one of the few effective tools, and I would opt to retreat and wait for the cavalry.

[Fastlane]

Are we missing the point of the article? What would happen if a soccer mom and her two children are kidnapped from a mall in the heartland and murdered in front of a vdeo camera and the video was shown on the internet? I think it would have almost the same effect as 911. I think the point Ayoob was trying to make is be prepaired for a terrorist attack on your person or family. Be prepaired to defiend your family to the best of your ability and what laws you obey or break to keep your family safe has to be decided individually. Just my .02.

[Onmilo]

This isn't just a right for citizens of this great country, it is every citizens civic duty.

[Detritus]

Just for the record i agree with teh sentiments expressed in this thread, but


Ayoob is really playing on a lot of hype here.

regardless of what else he's said or done Ayoob has proven that he has a HISTORY of doing this. though i understand he's reigned that tendency in some.

i personally stopped reading his work due to the complete PITA of as they say "sorting the peppercorns from the BS"..

good central primeise and intent to the article, now if he could have stated all that without making it another "Ayoob article" (they DO have a distinct feel and texture) it would have been MUCH better.


remember folks this is the guy who keeps telling us not to use reloads for CCW loads b/c "it's a sure ticket to prison" when there IS no back up for that.

[S_O_Laban]

or a disgruntled postal worker


Hey!! I resemble that remark:D :D

[Tamara]

*Face in hands*

I can't believe he included nuggets like this from frickin' DEBKA!

The fact is, there is strong reason to believe that it most certainly is going to happen again. The Israeli intelligence-gathering group DEBKA reported on May 26 of 2004: “Several sleeper cells are also known to have infiltrated the United States in ship’s containers in 2003 and early this year. Some of these containers were spotted at important US ports with signs of occupation by men with weapons and explosives who were never caught. They may have been decoys to distract attention from landings of large parties of armed terrorists on American shores, whom intelligence sources believed headed undetected for safe houses inland to await orders to strike.”

:rolleyes:

[Joey2]

What happens to someone who does not believe in a CCW and defends himself and other from terrorists?

Will he be treated like a terrorist?

There are a lot of people out there who refuse to let the government turn a right into a privilige and carry anyway.

Who will get out of jail first, the terrorist or the citizen exercising his rights?

[DesertEagle613]

Interesting thing about DEBKA...

Some of their stuff is pretty off the wall, but they have a nasty habit of posting articles that I think are total BS, and then I see writeups in the mainstream media a few months later. A perfect example is an article they had a while back about a Palestinian plan to use remote-controlled model planes to deliver explosives. Absurd, I thought. Then some time later, the Jerusalem Post reported a raid by the IDF in which they found a bomb workshop containing several hundred model airplanes :what:

Take DEBKA's stuff with a grain of salt, but don't discount it out of hand.

[Browns Fan]

It certainly shows that a skilled and determined CCWer can kick arse on a BG, assault rifle or not.